[dkstories] Lets Do It 20

[brax]

Well Dan... you just complicated things... yet again

[Mizu]

Dan... i really love your story... i do.... but really... how many times are you going to reuse the whole time machine idea?? especially this time where we didn't really even see how well Brian plan works before Sean suddenly pops back...

[C James]

Just read 19&20... Hrm, this is getting complicated! And veeeery interesting!

 

I noticed when Brian lied (saying that US cities got hit by nukes) that something was up. As I recall, what caused him to come back was just a dirty bomb in DC, nothing major except perhaps for the overall situation.

 

So, he's going back again. Will Davey go back too?

[canundra]

Oy. It just starts over and over again.

 

Good chapter

[BeaStKid]

Just read 19&20... Hrm, this is getting complicated! And veeeery interesting!

 

I noticed when Brian lied (saying that US cities got hit by nukes) that something was up. As I recall, what caused him to come back was just a dirty bomb in DC, nothing major except perhaps for the overall situation.

 

So, he's going back again. Will Davey go back too?

 

The starting of Let's Do It mentions that major U.S cities were held a missile point (lol, not gun point) after they jammed the timelines. Maybe, Brian was referring to that. If not then he may have been referring to the other timelines where the whole earth gets annihilated.

 

Nevertheless, great chapter Dan! I somehow thought that with this timeline f****d up, they'll have to do it again

What i failed to understand was why don't they build a large enough MRI scanner (read: time machine) for two or more people to go back. This way Davey could go back too.

 

I really do hope that Brian goes back to a time where he can effectively ease Davey's life (seeing as they have sufficient power). But i don't know what it wil do to Davey's experiences--growing up in a rosy dosy world.

 

I like the pace with which this story is moving.. Keep it up!

 

BSK

[old bob]

Great chapter Dan! I somehow thought that with this timeline f****d up, they'll have to do it again

I really do hope that Brian goes back to a time where he can effectively ease Davey's life (seeing as they have sufficient power). I like the pace with which this story is moving.. Keep it up!

I agree and I like the speeds: In the storie itself, months pass from one chapter to another, and in the writing, so many chapters(6 if I check right) in one month, Hourrah !!

Keep it up! (I like this expression)

Thanks for writing so many and so different stories

Edited June 30, 2007 by old bob

[Altimexis]

I echo everyone else's comments on this chapter, although I did find the shifting time scales a bit confusing on the first read. All-in-all, however, very nicely done.

 

I hate to speculate on what's coming next, since every other prediction I've made for LDI has been wrong, but I think a good part of the reason for sending Brian back is to make changes earlier in the time line so that things will be better in the end. As Brian stated at the beginning of LDI, experience had shown that small changes worked much better than large ones, and it's much easier to make them early than late. I think it goes without saying that he intends to make life better for Davey, too. The primary objective, however, will be to make sure that Shevardnadze and the scientist are dead, the secondary objective will be to nudge David Jones Sr. toward his destiny as president and the third and least important objective will be ensuring his and Davey's happiness together.

 

Now someone mentioned that they should have built an MRI scanner big enough to scan two people at once so that Brian and Davey could go back together. From a physical standpoint, this would for all practical purposes be impossible. For one thing, the do-over technology requires making a much more detailed scan than is available with any MRI scanner available today (and using computers from the '90's, no less)! One of the reasons MRI scanners have such a narrow tunnel is to maximize the strength of the magnetic field while getting the RF antennae as close to the subject as possible so as to maximize the signal-to-noise ratio. Make that tunnel wide enough for two people and you have to generate much stronger magnetic fields than anything currently possible - fields that are actually strong enough to damage human tissue - while still sacrificing resolution. And then there would be the issue of separating the memories from the two subjects and avoiding any cross-talk between the two. It would be much simpler to build multiple MRI scanners if you wanted to scan multiple subjects at once, but then this would have been tipping their hands more than just a bit.

 

One question I had was as to why they build an MRI scanner in the first place. If the objective was simply to jam all frequencies used for time travel, there should be no need for an MRIscanner to scan a person's memories. My guess is that they built the scanner, once again, just in case the future ended up worse off than predicted. To do this, I'm guessing they planned to jam the frequencies one-by-one, waiting long enough to be sure that Shevardnadze and the scientists were unable to come back before the collapse of the USSR. If they managed to come back no matter what, that would then still leave at least one frequency that our heroes could use to come back as a last resort.

 

My final thought is that, at minimum, Brian and Davey will both go back in time. Remember that in DIR, they both agreed that they would do it together. The only reason they didn't at the beginning of LDI is that Davey had had a stroke and his mind was essentially gone (there were no memories to send back), plus of course there wasn't enough power. With plenty of power available, they can both make the trip, multiplying their chances of succeeding in restoring the optimal DIR time line (or at least a reasonable facsimile), with appropriate changes, while maintaining their own personal continuity in their relationship. Indeed, I think it likely that Shawn will go back as well (since he might be needed to build yet another time machine), and that Brandon will probably go back with him. Although not needed, it's also quite possible that Trevor and Todd will make the trip, too.

 

The idea of multiple time travelers going back this time brings up an interesting paradox of sorts. We know that each instance of time travel creates a new time line. To me, this means that each instance resets the time lines at the moment the traveler arrives back in the past. Even if Davey plans to go back right away, Brian will in effect live an entire time line with the Davey of the past until the instant that our Davey also goes back. Since Davey and our friends will be able to observe the effect of Brian going back in time, I think its fair to say that Brian will in effect live all of the intervening years between his arrival in the past, whenever it may be, and the point in time of Davey's potential departure. All of those years will be erased, however, the moment that Davey goes back in time - it will be as if they never happened and there will be no memory of them having ever occurred at all once the bubble collapses and our friends who observed those years cease to exist. Until the bubble collapses, however, both time lines will have been observed - as if they both happened, even though only one can exist at any time as explained in LDI 20. Very interesting . . . Now for another interesting thought, what should Davey do if he observes that things went very well after Brian went back in time. Should he go back so that he can be with Brian and help him with future events? What if his going back actually makes things worse? The same could be said for Shawn, or Brandon, or even Trevor and Todd. Don't you just love sci-fi?

[old bob]

I echo everyone else's comments on this chapter,........very nicely done.

Don't you just love sci-fi?

Oh yes, I love it, especially the way DK write it

And in this story, things are going well quickly, what I appreciate

BTW, I dont want to talk about politics, but just imagine if this would be real, and Brian and Davey were living now, July 2007, and would be confronted with the Bush administration and his lack of strategy. This would be another DK's story....

Hey Dan, what do you think.... I (also) have a dream......

[BlueSoxSWJ]

The idea of multiple time travelers going back this time brings up an interesting paradox of sorts. We know that each instance of time travel creates a new time line. To me, this means that each instance resets the time lines at the moment the traveler arrives back in the past. Even if Davey plans to go back right away, Brian will in effect live an entire time line with the Davey of the past until the instant that our Davey also goes back.

 

Indeed, I thought about this as well, when there have been scenes where the timelines get numbered. If you want to get technical, an entire timeline is played out EVERY time a change is made. This means timeline 1 would be the original. Timelines 2-5 would be after Davey went back, after Shevrenadze went back, after dr. crazy went back, and when Sean went back.

 

DOR would then create timelines 6-9, as the first Chinese traveler, Davey, the second Chinese traveler, and Sean went back. DIR (well, actually, DOR ch 31) creates and is timeline 10. The start of LDI would then create timelines 11 (after signals were jammed) and 12 (Brian goes back). Finally, Shevrednadze and Sean go back again, creating lines 13 and 14. Now, Brian going back will create timeline 15, though since he only counts timelines Davey and then he remembered, he'd call it timeline 6 - he would count timelines 1, 5, 9, 10, 12, and now 15.

 

Maybe it would be an interesting exercise to try to write one of the "erased" timelines (except 4, which we know all about from DO chs 37,38), such as timeline 2. Obviously, we'd expect it not to differ until DO ch 17, when the agents show up at the Rush house ...

[Myk]

LOL....some interesting discussion going on here.

 

First off....another great chapter for another great story (just read it all over the past few days) dan!!! I had to start reading this as I couldn't keep waiting for DOH2, lol. It also figures you would have him go back in time again, right in the middle of the story too!

 

Ok, back to the discussions. As for the larger MRI machine thing to send more people, that isn't necessaray. In the first story 3 people went back using the same machine into the same timeline....all you need is more power. Plus there are the very realistic reasons that Altimexis stated for not using a larger machine. As it is the magnets in the 'normal' sized MRI machines are expensive enough!!

 

The idea about having entire lifetimes play out before another person comes back is a good point. Theoretically yes it does happen. I personally like to perscribe to the theory that the effects can occur before their cause. The way I mean this is that anyonewho is in the 'bubble' when it is formed can go back in time....all those that do go back have 'technically' already done so and when the new timeline starts it is as if they have all already left the previous one. If you believe that then there is not really a timeline played out before the next traveller comes back. Although this theory would tend to conflict with when sean came back to save davey during that sea engagment in the second timeline. Time travel is such a lovely and complicated thing....until it gives you a headache

[BlueSoxSWJ]

LOL....some interesting discussion going on here.

 

First off....another great chapter for another great story (just read it all over the past few days) dan!!! I had to start reading this as I couldn't keep waiting for DOH2, lol. It also figures you would have him go back in time again, right in the middle of the story too!

 

Ok, back to the discussions. As for the larger MRI machine thing to send more people, that isn't necessaray. In the first story 3 people went back using the same machine into the same timeline....all you need is more power. Plus there are the very realistic reasons that Altimexis stated for not using a larger machine. As it is the magnets in the 'normal' sized MRI machines are expensive enough!!

 

The idea about having entire lifetimes play out before another person comes back is a good point. Theoretically yes it does happen. I personally like to perscribe to the theory that the effects can occur before their cause. The way I mean this is that anyonewho is in the 'bubble' when it is formed can go back in time....all those that do go back have 'technically' already done so and when the new timeline starts it is as if they have all already left the previous one. If you believe that then there is not really a timeline played out before the next traveller comes back. Although this theory would tend to conflict with when sean came back to save davey during that sea engagment in the second timeline. Time travel is such a lovely and complicated thing....until it gives you a headache

 

Indeed, when discussing the theory of relativity in my physics class this year, we showed how our current notion of "cause and effect" and the possibility of time travel are mutually exclusive. This was a secondary result; the main one was showing that the ability of any two objects to travel (relative to each other) faster than the speed of light would be equivalent to allowing time travel. But, here we have the beautiful thing about fiction: we can just say "this is how it works, real life physics and theory be damned!" A similar topic is explored in Robert J Sawyer's "Flashforward," which I highly recommend. Basic plot: a glitch in an experiment in the LHC causes everyone's consciousness to "flash forward" about 20 years. While the inspiration for the "how" was clearly derived from the then-unsolved Solar Neutrino Problem, the exploration of whether the future was fixed, and if not, how much would be changed given gained information makes for a good read.

 

[Other Sawyer books I've read are "Mindscan," good but not thrilling; and the Quintaglio series, a light, enjoyable trilogy.]

[Myk]

Indeed, when discussing the theory of relativity in my physics class this year, we showed how our current notion of "cause and effect" and the possibility of time travel are mutually exclusive. This was a secondary result; the main one was showing that the ability of any two objects to travel (relative to each other) faster than the speed of light would be equivalent to allowing time travel. But, here we have the beautiful thing about fiction: we can just say "this is how it works, real life physics and theory be damned!" A similar topic is explored in Robert J Sawyer's "Flashforward," which I highly recommend. Basic plot: a glitch in an experiment in the LHC causes everyone's consciousness to "flash forward" about 20 years. While the inspiration for the "how" was clearly derived from the then-unsolved Solar Neutrino Problem, the exploration of whether the future was fixed, and if not, how much would be changed given gained information makes for a good read.

 

[Other Sawyer books I've read are "Mindscan," good but not thrilling; and the Quintaglio series, a light, enjoyable trilogy.]

 

The notion that "cause and effect" and time travel are mutually exclussive is dependent on the assumption that the theory of relativity is true. Since that hasn't been prooved it is still a theory and not a fact. In science many things are explained with theories and later shown to be incorrect or only true under very specific circumstances. As for the ability of two objects to travel in the opposite direction at the speed of light, technically it happens all the time. Take for instance our sun, it sends photons of light out in every direction all the time. Since it is roughly a globe then there are photons travelling in opposite directions at the speed of light all the time. Does all this mean time travel does exist for real? Well I don't know, but I hope so (even though Dan has shown it to cause nothing but trouble)

 

One little thing that can be a mindbender for some but is really cool. Looking up at the night's sky we see stars. Whereas from our point of view we see them all now, in reality the farther away we look the farther back in time we are looking. This is due to the massive distance between us and other stars, it takes a long time even for light (traveling at the speed of light ) to reach us. Some of the stars we see now don't even exist anymore, we just continue to see the light that they created a long time ago. I think its a pretty cool thing to think about!

[BeaStKid]

One little thing that can be a mindbender for some but is really cool. Looking up at the night's sky we see stars. Whereas from our point of view we see them all now, in reality the farther away we look the farther back in time we are looking. This is due to the massive distance between us and other stars, it takes a long time even for light (traveling at the speed of light ) to reach us. Some of the stars we see now don't even exist anymore, we just continue to see the light that they created a long time ago. I think its a pretty cool thing to think about!

That was taught to us last year and it fascinates me still. Imagine looking at a thing which doesn't even exist!! Astronomy is a very beautiful branch of science I am in awe of the many things that it tells us. Makes us look insignificant...lol

 

The BeaStKid

[Altimexis]

The start of LDI would then create timelines 11 (after signals were jammed) and 12 (Brian goes back).

 

Actually, jamming all prior instances of time travel restores the original time line #1 rather than creating a new time line. Otherwise, I completely agree with your time line count. Please see my discussion of the time lines from the beginning of LDI.