"Jumping the Shark"

[rec]

If you want to see how location and description are superbly done, read and study some of Rock Lane Cooper's work--such as, Two Men in a Pickup (at various places, including Best of Nifty). Cooper balances storytelling and description as well as any writer around.

 

REC

[Whatsifsowhatsit2]

Yay I feel like replying to every point made on this list now, and defend myself at every other one or so there's LOTS of points I don't agree with, but I still think it's an okay list, in just a few ways...

 

The Nick Archer List

1. The personal ad description - I agree with this one, but I don't really hate if it's done either

2. The collision - Hehe... when I used this one it was for a fanfiction where such things were common based on the theme, that is, it was the kind of story where these things were supposed to happen more often than usual... I think that makes it okay.

3. Dead parents - Hmm, again, something I did use often, and I guess I agree with this point... I've been using parents more recently in my newer stories, hehe... although my very newest haven't featured them much I guess, but that's for a reason in them these days, not just convenience (by the way I think J.K. Rowling hardly qualifies as an example here, since she did give her character stand-in parents, so it had little to do with convenience, let alone allowance to use the car etc., as all of us who know these stand-in parents know )

4. Location, location, location - While I agree it's cool to write about what you know, I myself like to write about the things I don't know, like ages I haven't experienced (or don't remember well), or made-up worlds etc. To be fair, I did use the beach once, but it was a sort of alternative stranded-on-an-island story :S can't go with much else there I guess...

5. Oversized body parts - Well, this one I just plain agree with.

6. Richie Rich - This falls under the category of writing about what I don't know, and though I haven't used it ( I think ::thinks:: ), I've thought about using it once, but I was too lacking in the self-confidence department on that point

7. Let's sit around and talk about our feelings - Well I'm the kind of guy who does like to talk about feelings, but I see how this was intended. It's in the 'sit around and' part, that makes it awkward and, well, unrealistic in many ways. The conversation happens, just in a more spontaneous way, I think.

8. The Names-We-Wish-We-Had - I see the guy's point here... and lord knows I've used them a lot too, often in characters from other countries or worlds, but not always... I try to not do that too much, but I also agree with some of the points made earlier in this topic about how you guys feel it makes the characters stand out more etc.

9. I'm Not Gay But My Boyfriend Is - Hehe... well, what can I say... I haven't used this, or seen it used many times, so I don't really understand this point much... but I think it's not that unrealistic for characters to feel this way, provided they aren't at terms with their sexuality and that shows in other aspects as well so I don't think I agree here.

10. Sports Hero Falls For Geek/Nerd/Outcast - Well, I don't care about this whatsoever.

11. Moving Is Traumatic - Well how about a plot element in which the character doesn't care that he/she is moving? No, but seriously, another thing I just don't care about. I just think for many writers it's an easy way to make their character know as little about the other characters as they do themselves. It's also easier often times, because there's less of a need to think of pasts for your protagonist, but I think if they just moved at the beginning of the stories (which is often the case) it'd still be cool to think of some good things of their past, because they'll tend to be mentioned or shown in some way, in real life anyway.

12. Dialogue #1: Say What? - I really agree with this one.

13. Dialogue #2: Valley Boys - With this one too.

14. Dialogue #3: "Gee, Mister that�s Swell - This one a bit less, but still I agree.

15. Superheroes - Although these could be cool in some stories if they're an actual plot element or it's some kind of fantasy or comic book made into a story, I agree that these aren't nice to read about since they're not realistic. However, I think that in stories flaws tend to stand out less than in real life, and in real life a person may seem perfect because people lack knowledge about them, yet nobody will think they're perfect (well, people with strong feelings for them maybe). Therefore, I'm never very judgemental about such things in stories, unless they're just over the top in really obvious ways (and even then I think it may just be me most of the time).

16. Smilies - I agree, smilies aren't cool... but as far as the addendum goes, I don't mind the "hehehehe" bit... I got that from Comsie's stories and I quite like it, if not overused. I use it myself sometimes, not often but still, sometimes. I don't like things like "btw" though, I just want authors to spell that out

17. The Alarm Clock - Again something I very much disagree with. I have no problems with this whatsoever. Or with doorbells.

18. Switching Narrators - This may be one of the ones I disagree most strongly with. This is just another way of storytelling and it's kind of weird to object to it... okay sure, it can get a bit much if it's done every other paragraph or so, but that's the case with other story styles too (err... I think...) somehow. It's just a bit much to say that it shouldn't be done at all, I think.

19. The "Phyllis" Syndrome - Well this is something that should be said to the readers, not the authors. While as an author you might want to try and please your readers as much as you can, in the end you should, I think, be writing for yourself, and you shouldn't NOT use an unappealing character just because the readers won't like it, if it's what you want to do. However, from a psychology point of view, and my personal philosophy, I don't think anyone is ever purely unlikeable if you know them well enough, and similarily I guess a character in a story, given enough depth, should have personality aspects that people do relate to and like. Except maybe unaccepting people

20. Is It Live or Memorex? - Okay, I guess this makes sense, but why is this guy making such a point of this? With the usage of terms like "for God's sake" etc... why so aggressive? Well, overly assertive at the very least... over a way of DEFINING a story... I'm a bit thrown by that, and that may be a slight understatement...

21. Onions Always Make Me Cry - My ex-boyfriend (wow, that sounds really weird... he didn't become ex that long ago and I never had one before) never cried, and this was alien to me in much the same way that I guess those that do cry are to Nick here, according to this. I disagree with this point and my opinion is pretty much opposite to his.

22. That's Some Bedside Manner - Another one I strongly disagree with. I don't mind this at all in a story, and I can read this happening many many times more than I have so far and still be moved and interested in it.

23. Who're You Callin' Stupid and Lazy? - I don't like that summarizing either, though in actual books of a series it can be nice to do so in the beginning (which, to use this guy's example, J.K. Rowling did pretty nicely I think). I haven't seen many series labeled series, but I wouldn't mind it either, I mean... what difference does it really make, right? And I just plain don't care about "The End" at the end, I think it has a certain charm actually.

24. Details, Details, Details - I see how this is meant, but I think some people do well with using lots of details for stories without having it become boring to most.

25. Card-Carrying Member of PFLAG - ::raises hand:: I think this isn't that rare at all... I mean, I don't know how it is in America, but we're also supposed to write about our own countries etc. as far as this guy is concerned, right? Seriously... another one I don't mind at all, and I don't think it's that much of a minority in which this happens in real life either.

26. "Alex, I'll Take Facts for $500:" - Well, finally one I agree with again. This is also something I worry about most in my stories. I always feel like I'm making mistakes with this (which is yet another reason why I'm looking for an editor at the moment (in the editor forum on this site btw). I'm glad to close this with a good one in my book.

 

I guess I don't agree with many of them, but that's just because I tend to accept a lot of things about stories and give the authors a lot of freedom, and Nick seems to not do that. There are some things which I don't like myself too, of course, which brings me to...

 

My own pet peeves! (Which is cool because before I could never think of any! This list inspired me) (I hope this doesn't offend anyone... please don't feel addressed directly, because you aren't! Even if you're like this and I use expressions like "I don't like people who" etc. - I don't not like you! Certainly not just because of this anyway!)

1. I'm a guy; I don't talk - This pet peeve I have is the opposite of point 7 in the list I responded too. I have a thing against overly horny characters, I just don't relate to them. I accept them because I know they must be out there, but the less they can talk about anything, the more it gets progressively harder for me to.

2. Tritiophobia - I have another pet peeve, which is based on readers and sometimes other writers, but is usually manifested outside of stories. It's this often-irrational fear of using or seeing clich

Edited November 26, 2007 by Whatsifsowhatsit2

[Graeme]

A good post, Vincent!

 

In Nick's defense, his essay is aimed at trying to help new authors become better. Some of his points are aimed at those who are trying to approach a professional standard in writing. As an example, this is what the "Switching Narrators" point is aimed at. If you want to use multiple narrators, the best approach is to write the story in third person, and switch narrators by having the story follow a different character. For example, J.K.Rowlings's books use this approach. Most of the time the story follows Harry, and we get to experience what he experiences, but occasionally we get to see what is happening to someone else. Note, however, we're really only ever following one character, and seeing what the other characters around them do. This is the same effect as switching first person narrators, but is easier to follow and read.

 

If you read some books on creative writing, you'll find many of his points repeated. Not all, of course (not too many creative writing books deal with erotica, though I have seen one), but there is a general consensus on the basic principles of writing good fiction. Having said that, you can vary from those principles (they are not rules), but don't do so from ignorance. If you do it, know that you're doing it and have a reason for doing it.

[Whatsifsowhatsit2]

I can agree with all that

[AFriendlyFace]

7. Let's sit around and talk about our feelings - Well I'm the kind of guy who does like to talk about feelings, but I see how this was intended. It's in the 'sit around and' part, that makes it awkward and, well, unrealistic in many ways. The conversation happens, just in a more spontaneous way, I think.

 

21. Onions Always Make Me Cry - My ex-boyfriend (wow, that sounds really weird... he didn't become ex that long ago and I never had one before) never cried, and this was alien to me in much the same way that I guess those that do cry are to Nick here, according to this. I disagree with this point and my opinion is pretty much opposite to his.

 

Hey Vincent! I really agree with these points! I do sit around and talk about my feelings. I mean like you said it's not like I'll call someone up and say "Hey, let's get together so we can sit around and discuss our feelings", but these conversations come up and basically all that's happening is that we're doing just that. In fact the phrase "How do you feel about that?" often comes up.

 

Sorry about the ex by the way

 

Good points!

Take care and have a great day!

-Kevin

[Whatsifsowhatsit2]

Hey Kevin,

 

Thank you I'm glad you thought these points were valid. And don't worry about the ex, it's cool, I'm not having issues with it anymore, really. It sounds weird, but I felt better than ever the past week or two (that has nothing to do with him (or any other reason I can pinpoint whatsoever, really), but still, it shows I'm no longer really bothered by it.

 

You have a great day too!

Vincent

[AFriendlyFace]

It sounds weird, but I felt better than ever the past week or two (that has nothing to do with him (or any other reason I can pinpoint whatsoever, really), but still, it shows I'm no longer really bothered by it.

That's awesome!

[Whatsifsowhatsit2]

That's awesome!

 

Hehe yeah, I guess so

[ashessnow]

While I agree with most of that list, I do think that if one of these has been done well, these guidelines could be ignored. But if I read something and it's full of these cliches, especially the - "Personal Ad" one or the "Superhero" - I really stop what I'm reading and think, that was really corny, do I want to continue? Usually I don't. But again, I read a story that had "The Alarm Clock" as the opening but it was done particularly well and it's description fit with who the character was, so I liked it.

[C James]

While I agree with most of that list, I do think that if one of these has been done well, these guidelines could be ignored. But if I read something and it's full of these cliches, especially the - "Personal Ad" one or the "Superhero" - I really stop what I'm reading and think, that was really corny, do I want to continue? Usually I don't. But again, I read a story that had "The Alarm Clock" as the opening but it was done particularly well and it's description fit with who the character was, so I liked it.

 

Like any cliche, IMHO the Alarm clock has exceptions. A cliche can be used, especially if a different spin is put on it, but it IMHO must be done with great care.

 

I faced this same issue once, and instead of avoiding it, I made it as cliche as possible. It was a "police blotter description" by the protagonist, gushing over the hot body and looks of... what turned out to be a car.

 

Seriously though, I've seen some cliches done very well, but sadly that proves to be the exception.

[S.L. Lewis]

I�m Not Gay But My Boyfriend Is: "I�m straight, but I couldn't help but notice the other guy�s six-pack under his tight Tommy Hilfiger shirt, bubble butt and 8.7 inch cock showing through his Fubu jeans." Yeah, you�re straight, all right, until the third paragraph when you fall to your knees faster than a Catholic at Sunday Mass.

 

*falls to floor laughing hysterically* You know what, this can actually work, if you throw in some confusion. Which I did, with some of my earlier works (which no one will ever see without some major editing).

What I mean is something along the lines of this:

 

I look at him and I can't help but notice that his pout is pretty cute. I shake my head and frown to myself, telling myself I'm a straight male with a wonderful girlfrined. 'Right?' I think to myself, staring at a wall as I confuse myself even more. I really should stop thinking. I just end up hurting myself.

 

That was something from my earlier writings. *paranoid look* It was written when I was 15 and just discovering my own writing style.

 

Back on topic!

 

But most of things things, I actually plan on poking fun at in one of the books that I have plans for...far, far, FAR in the future.

So, thank you for posting this link. It was very helpful for my plans and gave me good laugh as I tried not to kill my computer by taking it apart piece by piece.

[BeaStKid]

this is really good... even Nifty had something like this...

 

Pssst... i accept that i used one of them...

[Tristan Thinks]

As an example, this is what the "Switching Narrators" point is aimed at. If you want to use multiple narrators, the best approach is to write the story in third person, and switch narrators by having the story follow a different character.

...

 

and seeing what the other characters around them do. This is the same effect as switching first person narrators, but is easier to follow and read.

This had me both indignant and laughing!

 

I'm working on a story (Infuriating Dilemma) that uses multiple narrators, or rather, multiple first-person conversations with the reader. In my case (I hope) it's justified since I'm putting the reader in the place of a relationship counselor and the two protagonists are relating their thoughts and feelings about what has gone before, what they want for the future, and how they think they can deal with things. Much of it is written as flashbacks as they 'tell' the counselor about their experiences and memories.

 

I did consider the third-person style but I didn't feel it worked so well with the way the dialogue is written, where I've tried to capture the way people insert those inflections where they seek the listener's agreement or confirmation they understand.

 

Interestingly I'm also experimenting with using third-person to report an onlookers view of how the two protagonists interact, so it'll be interesting to see if I can manage that without confusing the reader

[Jack Scribe]

I did consider the third-person style but I didn't feel it worked so well with the way the dialogue is written, where I've tried to capture the way people insert those inflections where they seek the listener's agreement or confirmation they understand.

 

Interestingly I'm also experimenting with using third-person to report an onlookers view of how the two protaganists interact, so it'll be interesting to see if I can manage that without confusing the reader

 

I've been going through a 'thriller' novel period the past six months for recreational reading. Recently, James Patterson books have whetted my appetite. He's a very prolific, excellent author with perhaps 40 titles in his CV, so far. One series centers around Detective Alex Cross. Each book is written in limited third person (the style I've settled on for my stuff) EXCEPT for chapters involving Alex Cross. These chapters, interspersed throughout the book, are written in first person.

 

Unusual, but the change in style didn't put me off. But, then...Patterson's writing is superb.

 

Jack

[Graeme]

This had me both indignant and laughing!

 

I'm working on a story (Infuriating Dilemma) that uses multiple narrators, or rather, multiple first-person conversations with the reader. In my case (I hope) it's justified since I'm putting the reader in the place of a relationship counselor and the two protagonists are relating their thoughts and feelings about what has gone before, what they want for the future, and how they think they can deal with things. Much of it is written as flashbacks as they 'tell' the counselor about their experiences and memories.

 

I did consider the third-person style but I didn't feel it worked so well with the way the dialogue is written, where I've tried to capture the way people insert those inflections where they seek the listener's agreement or confirmation they understand.

There are exceptions all the time This sounds like a good example of one. You have a reason to be using multiple first person. From one perspective, it's actually third person, but completely full of dialogue. Since dialogue is innately first person, and you're not including the narrative, the story becomes multiple first person. This is not what most people have done, though. In your case, it sounds like it would work, and work well.

 

I've been going through a 'thriller' novel period the past six months for recreational reading. Recently, James Patterson books have whetted my appetite. He's a very prolific, excellent author with perhaps 40 titles in his CV, so far. One series centers around Detective Alex Cross. Each book is written in limited third person (the style I've settled on for my stuff) EXCEPT for chapters involving Alex Cross. These chapters, interspersed throughout the book, are written in first person.

 

Unusual, but the change in style didn't put me off. But, then...Patterson's writing is superb.

I've read one published novel that was alternating third person limited and first person. It worked well, and gave a very distinctive feel to the two main characters. In the case you describe, it would again place a special emphasis on that one character who is in first person.

 

This is an advanced technique and not one I would suggest someone try lightly. I certainly wouldn't be confident to do it myself... not yet

[AFriendlyFace]

I'm working on a story (Infuriating Dilemma) that uses multiple narrators, or rather, multiple first-person conversations with the reader. In my case (I hope) it's justified since I'm putting the reader in the place of a relationship counselor and the two protagonists are relating their thoughts and feelings about what has gone before, what they want for the future, and how they think they can deal with things. Much of it is written as flashbacks as they 'tell' the counselor about their experiences and memories.

That does sound creative, dude!

[S.L. Lewis]

1) Dead Parents: Hum...lets see, I have one character whos(e) mother died from cancer and one character whos father died in an accident, or what seems like an accident. Let's see. Dead parents! Shocking, but it's true. I use it because it's essential to the plot that I have going on for these characters. But, I didn't go overboard and make both parents dead, that's just over kill here people, so I half agree with this person on this subject.

 

2) Location, Location, Location: Okay, so this person is telling me to write what I know, correct? Well, I don't know a whole lot, so what do I do? Well, I RESEARCH! That's right, I sit down at my computer, find some sites with the necessary information and read it. I also talk to people. No matter how new you are to writing, you should know this. Most schools pound this into peoples heads. To write something accuretly, you need to research what you're writing about.

So, no, I really don't agree with this person on this subject.

 

3) Oversized Body Parts: Okay, yes, I can agree somewhat with this one, but not completely. There are some times that you need this info, even if it is just the persons p.o.v. and their thoughts during a sex scene. But that has got to be one smutty chapter for it to fit in properly and the sex should be well written. I can't help but wonder what this person is thinking as they write.

 

4) Richie Rich: *gasp* Is it...it is! It's a rich character who is being smart and working! Yes, this cliche is dying out slowly. Yes, it is so not cool to write (and I just had a valley girl moment there) and it gets rather dull. But if you are smart about how the character is written and what they are doing, then you can get away with it! For example, my character is rich. His grandfather is a business man who owns a vinard in Italy and also has quite a few shares in many, many businesses, his mother was a semi-famous painter and manga writer/drawer and his father is a small time business man who has his own. But, does he sit around living off that money? No. His mother is dead, and he takes the royalties from the books still being sold and tucks it away for busniess college. He also works full time at a cafe, and has for the past year and a half.

See, thats a smart use of a rich kid in your story. Make them work for what they have, even if they don't have to. Because now days, most rich kids do.

So, I agree with them to a point.

4) Let�s Sit Around and Talk About Our Feelings: Okay, again, I agree with them to a point. But sometimes you do need the "sit down cause we need to talk about something big" scene if it helps the plot. I don't care how driven by hormones a guy is, they can sit down and chat. And I should know! I've talked to my friends, who are guys and gay by the way, not to mention only 18 and 19 years of age, and they have told me that they do sit down and talk about concerns every week or so. It's a great way to get the important things out there, and must happen. Unless you're trying to rip your characters apart, then let them sit on it, and watch the fireworks. I'm sure the fight will be spetacular. Just don't go over board with it please.5) The Names-We-Wish-We-Had: It has been said once, and it must be said again, it doesn't matter now days! Use what ever name you want because more and more people out there are going to be given unique and different names. But, yes, there is a but, it all depends on the time period. If the time is any where before the 1990's, then I suggest you go with rather simple names, either that or use the name finder that was talked about above.

 

6) Sports Hero Falls For Geek/Nerd/Outcast: Hum, what to say about this one. I do understand where the person is coming from, but depending on where the story is set, there are set cliques. On occasion, they cross each others paths, or are friends with others, but there are still cliques. Use your high school experience is you must write one of these stories. Either that, or talk with someone, preferable your beta, about their high school experiences. You'd be surprised at what they can tell you about their school and the way people interact with each other.

So, I only partially agree on this subject with this person.

 

7) Superheroes: When I read this word, I think of tights, underwear on the outside and capes. Or in the Flashes case, a tight one piece that makes me wonder what it would look like on a real guy. *drools*

So, yes I agree with this person on this subject. No one is perfect, so why should a character be? They should have flaws and emotions and feelings that can be hurt. Make them human!

8) The Alarm Clock: I agree with this person on not starting the story with a ringing alarm clock. It's over used and dead. But don't take out the alarm clock entirerly. It's part of an actual persons life, and is needed to make a story real, as long as it plays a very, tiny, itty bit part of the story. It's just one of those small details you need.

 

9) The "Phyllis" Syndrome: I agree. Unless the story is about a redemption of the character or you're writing a story where a victim of the character gets their revenge, don't make the main character a jerk. It's unappealing and will make you lose your fans quickly.

 

10) That�s Some Bedside Manner: You know what, sometimes you have to have a scene that is set in a hospital. But, it needs to be tastefully done. I know, it's just so easy to make a character stand at someones bedside and bawl their eyes out, but don't unless it's part of the plot. It's cheesy and it's hard to write so that its good. So, I agree with this one to a point.

 

11) Who�re You Callin� Stupid and Lazy?: Some advice, when writing, unless you're adding more to the last line of what you wrote, listen to this person. don't summarize, don't add series unless it's the first chapter of the installment, and only if you are numbering the installment, and use 'Fin' instead of 'The End.' It looks better. So, once more, I agree, but to a point.

 

12) Details, Details, Details: Ah, the one thing that can make a story soar or make it sink faster than a lead weight. I have to agree with this to a point, again. Sometimes, the detail that doesn't seem important actually is. This is where a beta comes in handy, again. You can discuss what is what with the story and how to write about things. Sometimes, a single paragraph with something that doesn't seem like it should be there, and is just taking up space, comes up as a major plot point in future chapters.

But, like the person said, be smart about what you are putting in there. Yes, I'm pretty much summerizing here.

 

13) Card-Carrying Member of PFLAG: You know what, this does happen more often then not now days. Yes, there are still parents or family members who are against you, but most often then not, they just need some time to get used to the fact. So, if you need to include the parents accepting something, make it gradual. After all, their lives just got a massive shock.

 

14) "Alex, I�ll Take Facts for $500:" Yes! Finally! Something that I can agree with! If you must write something, research it! Become a book worm if you need to. Or if you know something, make sure your knowledge is correct. I don't care how knowledgeable you are about something, brush up on it. Knowledge can get rusty if not used a lot. So be smart and actually look things up. You have a multitude of sources that you can turn to. Use them.