Bisexuality: thoughts and opinions.

[Graeme]

Haven't heard of gays who get married?

 

*cough* I believe I've heard of gays who get married.... I even know one personally as well as several other online (including here are GA).

 

I understand what you're saying with the statistics so far Kevin, but as a person who views the glass as half-empty, I view that result as saying that 25% of the gay population refuses to date me simply because of my sexuality (such as it is), and that is both startling and disgusting.

While I would refuse to date you, Robbie, that's because I'm already in a relationship and also because I'm old enough to be your dad. Otherwise, you would be a tempting date because you remind me a lot of myself at your age

 

Okay, back to being serious.

 

This is like the other poll where I also refused to vote, though it's a bit more volatile.

 

As long as it's compatible, a person's sexuality should not be a primary factor in deciding if one should start a relationship. Other things, like personality, common interests, common values (including the issue of fidelity) are a lot more important -- as has been stated several times above.

 

However, one area where being bi-sexual does influence things is societal pressure. Ideally, it shouldn't make any difference, but today's society tends to put pressure on people to confirm, and that includes for people to marry someone of the opposite sex. I'm an example of that.

 

That pressure is very hard for the gay guy to succumb too (though people like myself can and do succumb), and as homosexuality becomes more acceptable, it is easier for them to resist.

 

For the bi-sexual guy, though, it can be easier to succumb to that pressure, rather than fight it, because they CAN be happy emotionally and sexually with a woman. Ieshwar's post implies this -- he made the comment that the boyfriend "had to get married", not "wanted to get married".

 

I believe this pressure is wrong and that if it didn't exist then this whole debate would be a non-event -- people would be dating based on other more important matters. But it does exist and that is the complicating factor in the situation.

 

If I became single, would I date someone who was bi-sexual (excluding Robbie, of course, as being too young )? The simple answer is that being bi-sexual would not disqualify them, but I would need to know more about their history.

 

Because of my background, I have a fair amount of information about married gay/bi men and most of it isn't pretty. Many are not faithful -- they are faithful to their wives as far as other women are concerned, but they aren't faithful as far as men are concerned. Why is this? I can't speak for others, but I can speak for myself because I've been tempted more than once. It's because desiring men while married to woman builds up a tension, a stress that can be very, very strong. Some of that stress is from keeping a secret (I found things a lot easier to handle once I came out to my wife, though the tension is still there), but if I dated a bi-sexual man I would need to know if the same tension existed for him, but for sex with a woman, instead. If they were a person who really didn't care about the gender of their partner, but only that they loved them, then I believe I'd be happy. If, however, they were a person who wanted sex with either gender then I would worry if being faithful to only a single gender would put too much pressure on them and that they would eventually stray -- just to relieve that stress.

 

Ultimately, honesty and communication would be the key factors. If I believe that the other person could tell me if there are problems, if there are pressures they are feeling, then I think I'd be fine. If they never had them, then that would be great!

 

I'm still not voting in this poll, though, because I still believe that the sexuality isn't a decision point in a relationship -- it's only one factor in a complex decision.

[old bob]

As long as it's compatible, a person's sexuality should not be a primary factor in deciding if one should start a relationship.......Because of my background, I have a fair amount of information about married gay/bi men..... Many are not faithful -- they are faithful to their wives as far as other women are concerned, but they aren't faithful as far as men are concerned.......

I agree with Graeme, but I still voted yes. Graeme's description suits me. I am bi/married and I must recognize that in 55 years of happy marriage, I wasn't 100 % faithful (as it is said in the Bible : "ceux qui ont beaucoup p

[Menzoberranzen]

I don't see why, simply because I am minority, I have to become this person who makes no judgments about people whatsoever. I wouldn't date a bisexual guy because, from my past experience, it wouldn't work out. That is a personal preference about who I share my life with; much as I wouldn't date a minor, or a drag queen, or somebody who lived in a different city or somebody who had an SM fetish. There is nothing wrong with bisexual anymore than there is with being a minor or a drag queen (and even SM fetishes), but that doesn't mean I have to date them.

 

I don't see how my personal choice as to who I spend my life with should be anything but a selfish choice. It's a hell of a lot different that straight people who think gays are immoral and whatever else it is that they think.

 

Menzo

[Zapp]

Gee I read that as being with a minor

 

And Bi's FTW!

[NaperVic]

I don't see how my personal choice as to who I spend my life with should be anything but a selfish choice. It's a hell of a lot different that straight people who think gays are immoral and whatever else it is that they think.

 

Well put Menzo. I can't help but roll my eyes when I read how the poor, misunderstood, & persecuted bisexuals equate the two things :wacko: .

 

I don't think anyone is saying bi-sexuals are all going to hell, should be send to re-education camps, nor should they be discriminated against in terms of housing, jobs, & civil rights.

 

So, what do I have to say to those who would never date a bi-sexual or someone in the closet? Get over yourself, and try being open-minded for a spell, prick Vic.

 

Fixed it with a word that rhymes Robbie

 

 

As Kevin pointed out, statistically 75% of gay men are okay with dating a bisexual. So stop complaining you all

 

Actually though, I do want to point out that the results of this poll really aren't so bad in terms of acceptance of bisexuality. Currently we have 178 "yeses" and only 6 "no's". That means that nearly 3x as many members of our community wouldn't have a problem dating a bisexual as would. Additionally, those in the minority haven't expressed a dislike or non-acceptance of bisexual people. Most have simply said that they personally wouldn't want to date them. Several have even implied that they would readily befriend them, or even have non-serious flings with them. So I really don't think the prognosis is all that bad, indeed it is more promising in terms of acceptance than I had anticipated. I don't see why we can't respect that some people simply don't want to have a serious relationship with bisexuals.

Edited December 1, 2007 by NaperVic

[JamesSavik]

It has been my experience that BI is what an insecure gay person calls himself when they first venture out of the closet.

 

When the heats on, they can, and do, leave the evil faggit that messed with their mind and take up with a whore and claim normality. Then you catch them tricking at truck stops or airport mens room.

 

So, what do I have to say to those who would never date a bi-sexual or someone in the closet? Get over yourself, and try being open-minded

 

Once you have been burned in such a way, only a fool would go back for seconds.

[Dezlboi]

Well put Menzo. I can't help but roll my eyes when I read how the poor, misunderstood, & persecuted bisexuals equate the two things :wacko: .

 

I don't think anyone is saying bi-sexuals are all going to hell, should be send to re-education camps, nor should they be discriminated against in terms of housing, jobs, & civil rights.

 

As Kevin pointed out, statistically 75% of gay men are okay with dating a bisexual. So stop complaining you all

 

I simply stated that it made me sad or disappointed to think that someone would reject me based on a label that I don't even like to affix to myself. Thought I suppose expecting other people to choose based on the characteristics that I find important - personality, sense of humor, my interests, looks - isn't realistic.

 

I didn't accuse anyone of saying any of those things above.

 

-D

[clumber]

I wouldn't have any problem at all with dating a bi-sexual. I mean, if they happen to be attracted to women as well, so what? What would actually matter is that they were with me and that they wanted to be with me. Anything else is just clutter.

[Tarin]

OK, not actually having done the math I was quite disappointed, but since AFriendlyFace pointed out that most would in fact date a bi guy I've breathed a sigh of relief.

I guess what I did is I took my personal experience with a few gay guys and then sterotyped the whole community.

Kind of like what some guys have pointed out here, that they were hurt by a bi guy, and they refuse to go back. Just one question, ever been hurt by a gay guy?

The answer is probably yes, they just didn't go to a woman.

I understand there is some extra bad feelings that goes along with a bi guy going back to a woman. He left me for a woman? or Something was so wrong between us I turned him off guys? My ex-girlfriend and I had to sit down and talk about this after we broke up.

 

 

I harbour no hard feelings towards the guys that said they would not date a bi guy, it is a personal choice. But I bet if the right bi guy came along you'd think twice.

If not, your loss. Some of us are pretty cool

[Graeme]

I think Menzo has nailed an important point. The poll doesn't not distinguish between a "no" vote because of a personal preference/choice, and a "no" vote because they don't trust bi-sexuals.

 

To use an analogy, I wouldn't date myself because physically I find myself unattractive. That's shallow, because I know I have a lot of good personality traits, but the physical appearance has to be a factor for me in making a decision to date someone. Similarly, there are some racial groups that I'm not attracted to. There's nothing wrong with them, and there are many who are attracted to them -- just not me.

 

I also think we have to keep Delzboi's comment in mind -- assigning a label of "bi-sexual" on someone isn't defining the person. It is just a label that tries to explain a set of characteristics, and all too often does a poor job of doing so. By some people's definition, I'm bi-sexual since I'm in a relationship with a woman, even though I personally consider myself to be gay. For those that wouldn't date a bi-sexual person -- whose definition are you going to use for me?

[NaperVic]

For those that wouldn't date a bi-sexual person -- whose definition are you going to use for me?

 

It doesn't matter what your label is Graeme, I wouldn't date you cause I wouldn't want to be the mommy of two upcoming teenage boys. Too much stress :wacko: .

 

Just kidding Graeme

[viv]

Wow guys, I'm not sure what to say here.

 

I guess I'll start with this: It REALLY bothers me when people who have to go through life fighting for the chance to live without being judged, or labeled, or having assumptions made about them, and stereotypes pinned on them go and say things that are so... ridiculous. It makes them hypocrites, and it sets us back in terms of our ability to move forward as people who respect the rights of others to live happily and without limitations based on race, gender, sexuality, disablilty, etc. I'm not gay, or bisexual, but I work every day to help educate people and make this world a place where being happy with whomever they love, where people don't make judgements about others based on appearance or age, where people can feel comfortable being who they are and wanting what they want, instead of feeling like they have to hide or supress who and what they are because it's the RIGHT thing to do, is a reality.

 

A few examples just from this thread that bother me for these reasons would be "Why would I want to commit to a long term relationship with someone who may bail on me when he does 'figure out his identity' is to be with a lady?" or "That, to me, is trying to have your cake and eat it too. People use bisexuality as a stepping stone to gay, and others use it as an excuse to have sex with whomever they please..." "**puts on his rose-coloured glasses**" or "I don't see why we can't respect that some people simply don't want to have a serious relationship with bisexuals."

 

These comments just go to show that even within a group of people who should be open to, and supportive of, people having the right to love whomever they want without judgements being placed on them, that it's not that simple. When somoeone would rather 'put on rose colored glasses' or just determine that, as a group, bisexuals are greedy, indecisive people who just haven't realized who they are yet, saddens me. I expected more from you, as human beings, as people who have fought, and likely still do daily, for the very same privelage to be able to live as who you are, and as my friends.

 

Someone said "It seems very hypocritical when gays and lesbians fight straight people for their rights, and then turn around and bash bi-sexuals because they are different." I say... different how? Different because they want a partner they can commit to and love, and be loved by, for the person they are? Or different because it's not how you are? Congratulations for doing so yourself.

 

On the other hand, several of you said things that I find valuable. "A faithful guy is a faithful guy, it really shouldn

[Dezlboi]

Thanks Viv. I think we're lucky to have someone so willing to think that far outside of their own personal experience and be so supportive, whether we all agree or not.

 

D

[Graeme]

It doesn't matter what your label is Graeme, I wouldn't date you cause I wouldn't want to be the mommy of two upcoming teenage boys. Too much stress :wacko: .

I'm now trying to work out if that mean you're smart enough to be good boyfriend material for someone... or if you've just insulted all the great teenagers out there

 

Sorry, Vic -- I just had to smile when I read it.

 

As for Viv's post, I'm not going to quote it because I don't think it's necessary. I'll just say... Thanks, Viv, for a fantastic post

[Drewbie]

Yes I would date one,

 

I have to add here, that at work we were discussing a girl asked another guy if his gf left him for another girl would it be really bad, he didn't think so, but for here if he left her for another guy it would be worse. I think people act that way because they feel they didn't please them.

Edited December 1, 2007 by Drewbie

[Menzoberranzen]

You make some good points Viv, but let me repeat something I said earlier: I'm not saying bisexuals are any less deserving of my respect and empathy than gay people, I'm saying I don't want to date one. There's a very big difference.

 

We all make judgments, whether we admit to them or not, and to pretend that you are going to react the same way to everyone is absurd. The issues the GLBT community faces and has faced over the past decades have NOTHING to do with how I determine who I want to date. I will not be a slave to some ideal that says, as a gay man, I must do everything in my power to eliminate stereotypes from my life. Stereotypes exist for a reason. Obviously one shouldn't act as if every bisexual they encounter is 'trying to have their cake and eat it too' but to just pretend that that doesn't happen is foolish. I fit into a fair number of gay stereotypes and I don't take offense when people assume I'm gay from the way I dress/act. I also don't get offended at masculine, straight-acting gay people who say they wouldn't date a fem guy. I couldn't care less who they will and will not date; it's a personal choice that doesn't involve me in the slightest.

 

Why is CJ's tongue-in-cheek refusal to date psychopathic-ax-murderers any different from this? What about the poor, ostracized psychopaths? Should they be treated without regards for stereotypes? I realise this is extreme, but in essence it is the same thing: we all make more-or-less prejudiced decisions about who we date. The fact that 99% of the lucid population agrees with CJ is the only reason people aren't jumping down his throat for it.

 

While it's a lovely idea that love overcomes all obstacles and that we should be as open as possible, the fact of the matter is a lot different. People have relationships because of circumstance, convenience, societal pressure. I have, and freely admit, to ending relationships with people I liked because their life didn't mesh with mine. In an ideal world, that might not matter, but in reality details like that do matter. If your life goals don't at least partially overlap with mine, chances are that no matter how much I like you, it's not going to work out.

 

I'm sure I've quoted this before, but it's one of my favorites:

 

"The precept judge not that ye not be judged is an abdication of moral responsibility; it is a moral blank check that one writes to others in exchange for a moral blank check for oneself. The precept to adopt is judge, and be prepared to be judged."

~Ayn Rand

 

Menzo

[Meeko]

Really, everyones getting all upset about this and for what reason?

 

Everyone is differen't. Some people wouldn't want to date bi people and if thats how they feel then fine by me. Some people don't want to date gay people, agian if thats how they feel fine by me. Thats how the world is, everyone has their own opinions, values, etc etc. They might not always be right, but thats a part of who they are. to each his or her own imo.

 

The only thing that upsets me is the reason you wouldn't date a Bi Sexual is becuase they might go after a woman, and like a few others have said before already, you cannot judge someone by the oriention we all should know that by now right? You think i like being BI? Its not something i just deiced one day "Ohh hey look i like boys and girls," and to say that we have a better chance of cheating on you with the oppsite sex is downright degrading. EVERYONE IS DIFFEREN'T just becuase maybe in your past you had a boyfriend who was BI who left you for another guy or girl, does not give you the right to say we would all do that.

 

No hard feelings?

 

../End rant

 

-Mike

[Krista]

I voted yes. I'm open-minded to that idea as well. I don't see any problem with it and my older sister is married to a Bisexual man.

 

 

Krista

[shadowgod]

I believe many of the people in this thread let alone all of GA are inteligent, therefore seeing some of the responses to this question are dishartening to say the least.

 

Yes we all make Judgements. The fact that we do is NOT inherant to human nature. It is a learned skill. You doubt this; look at a group of infants crawling around. Will they by virtue of nature alone segragate out into individual groups based on skin color and sex, only to further subdivide by other judgable qualities?

 

No, they interact freely with no pre-concieved notion of superior, or inferior groups.

 

Notions of In groups and Out groups are force fed to us by society. Want more evidence look only to people who smoke, they are not hard to find they are the people ostricised and huddling together in the cold away from everyone else.

 

So yes we all judge, but as the enlightened individuals we all believe ourselves to be, it is up to us to recognize what we are doing and think differently. Failure to do so only perpetuates the intolerence and stupidity we all claim to hate.

 

And the notion of Judge not; least ye be judged. Takes into account that people by learned trait judge, but it encourages them not to judge by reminding them that they too have their own faults.

 

Judge and prepare to be judged only give every whacko nutjob out there free reign to stand up behind a pulpit or podium and spew whatever venom they see fit. So long as their tresspasses are less then the ones they rally against.

 

Lastly, what is the defining characteristic of a physco axe murder? I'm sure by the time you have found that out you're already neck deep in the relationship. Same rings true for someones true feelings on anything. You wont know till you have commited.

 

Steve

[Dezlboi]

I'm sure I've quoted this before, but it's one of my favorites:

 

"The precept judge not that ye not be judged is an abdication of moral responsibility; it is a moral blank check that one writes to others in exchange for a moral blank check for oneself. The precept to adopt is judge, and be prepared to be judged."

~Ayn Rand

 

That's one of the most disturbing ideas I've heard in quite a while.

 

I don't want to be overdramatic, but I believe that judgement is in opposition to acceptance and respect. If we are morally obligated to adopt her precept, I think there's little hope for us as a society.

 

D

[Masked Monkey]

Why is CJ's tongue-in-cheek refusal to date psychopathic-ax-murderers any different from this? What about the poor, ostracized psychopaths? Should they be treated without regards for stereotypes? I realise this is extreme, but in essence it is the same thing

Actually, no, it isn't the same thing. "psychopathic-ax-murderers" implies very significant past behavior as well as clinical diagnosis, not stereotyped generalizations. The correct analogy is saying I wouldn't date someone who has an axe.

 

I know I wouldn't date a bi-female . As to dating a bi-guy, I dunno it would depend on a few things, most of them about him, what he wants ... well, I suppose that means I would date a bi-guy in order to find those things out. But there is nothing I would want to know about I bi-guy that I wouldn't want to know about a gay-guy.

 

Of course all of this falls at the feet of the silly notion that I ever date.

 

:king: Dr. Mr. Snow "Snoopy" Dog

[viv]

At this point, I feel like we have lost track of the original topic.

 

We aren't discussing if it's right or wrong to stereotype, or if it's one's moral obligation to be judgemental when someone murders or rapes... we are discussing why you find the need to have prejudices against people in your own community, instead of embracing them as people who deserve to be who they are in a place meant to provide support to them and a safe place to do so in.

 

What my main point was earlier, and I realize it was LONG and drawn out, was that if we just accept this behavior from people then we can never expect it to change, no matter if we are talking about something as ridiculous as dating someone who is bisexual, or if we are talking about something serious like homophobic people hating or young people who are afraid, like real fear, to be who they are for fear they will be hurt, homeless, or worse. If we can't see the difference here, we have to look harder.

 

"Failure to do so only perpetuates the intolerence and stupidity we all claim to hate."

 

Absolutely...

[Menzoberranzen]

Judgment does not have to be a public thing (nor does it have to be whacko), I rarely vocalize my judgments about other people. And as distasteful as I find people such as Fred Phelps, I don't deny him his right to preach what he pleases.

 

You say that the notion of judgment is given to us by society; what is society if not a collection of individuals? You cannot impose any trait on society that you do not also impose on a subset of its members. It is impossible for society to be anything that at least some of the individuals who comprise it are not. Infants also don't grieve or feel guilty or feel altruistic; should we therefore not describe such traits as inherently human?

 

One can be tolerant while still passing judgment; we need only look at smokers who, though judged, are still tolerated. And to pass judgment on nothing is to say that there is no moral standard whatsoever - nothing can be deemed immoral, for such a label is a judgment on that action, and the person who committed it.

 

Menzo (who apologizes for the semi-off-topic-ness of this post)

[shadowgod]

agreed menzo.

 

As I said we all judge, but it is up to us to look past those snap judgements, and make something more of the world we have inherited.

 

Yes much of what makes us human is learned, or more so that we have the ability to learn. My only concern is that we consistantly focus on reasons to hate. Does hate make us a better people? No it only brings further problems to our doorstep. Furthermore as a subset "out group" who is the focus of hate already; why do we take it upon ourselves to further the status quo?

 

Simple answer is it is what we have learned to do.

 

All I am saying is, unlearn.

Edited December 2, 2007 by shadowgod

[Meeko]

agreed menzo.

 

As I said we all judge, but it is up to us to look past those snap judgements, and make something more of the world we have inherited.

 

Yes much of what makes us human is learned, or more so that we have the ability to learn. My only concern is that we consistantly focus on reasons to hate. Does hate make us a better people? No it only brings further problems to our doorstep. Furthermore as a subset "out group" who is the focus of hate already; why do we take it upon ourselves to further the status que?

 

Simple answer is it is what we have learned to do.

 

All I am saying is, unlearn.

 

 

What he said ^^