Boy Scouts Strike again

[scoopny]

As a former Boy Scout myself, I'm always sad when I read stories like this, if I had known when I was younger how they discriminated against gays, I never would have joined it. This article is about a lifelong Scout employee who abruptly lost his job after his bosses learned he was gay.

 

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2005/08/scouting.html

[Benji]

As a former Boy Scout myself, I'm always sad when I read stories like this, if I had known when I was younger how they discriminated against gays, I never would have joined it. This article is about a lifelong Scout employee who abruptly lost his job after his bosses learned he was gay.

 

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2005/08/scouting.html

 

 

..........As a former scout myself, I was dismayed when BSA policies first came to light a few years back and sadly cut off all donations. It is only hurting the kids, and I hope he is successful in winning his lawsuit.

[Demetz]

I saw an article recently about a coalition of gay mormons seeking council with the new leadership of the mormon church, perhaps if they're successful things will turn around in the boy scouts as well?

[Menzoberranzen]

Oh, the poor gay atheists out there.

[FrenchCanadian]

in the states, you guys really needs to pass a law that stop discrimination in work place based on sexual orientation, a little like we have here in canada

[Tiger]

in the states, you guys really needs to pass a law that stop discrimination in work place based on sexual orientation, a little like we have here in canada

There most certainly should be. Lawmakers have tried to pass such laws, but they always seem to fail. This is an outrage, a clear example of discrimination based upon sexual orientation.

[Benji]

in the states, you guys really needs to pass a law that stop discrimination in work place based on sexual orientation, a little like we have here in canada

 

 

........we have anti-discrimination laws in most work places. Religious organizations policies seem to be exempt from them, basing their "beliefs", (Gay Marriage?) therefore allowing them to employ people that believe their doctrine. The Boy's Scouts somewhere along the line have decreeded gays where not "wholesome" one of their virtues, in doing so they have been allowed to discriminate, somewhat aligning themselves as a religious organization. But their exempt status should be forever revoked, hard to pass laws that the courts overturn, and harder to stop laws that the religious right pass.

[scoopny]

Yeah even if there was an anti-discrimination law that protected gay and lesbian workers, it may not have helped this guy since religious organizations would be exempt if they are hiring someone who is teaching one of their core beliefs (so like the catholic church wouldn't be required to hire a gay rights activist as a priest, but it couldn't discriminate against the same person if he or she was applying for a job as a secretary). Although he might have a case if he can prove he was just a scuba instructor and not a guy teaching the "Boy Scout values." Whatever those are.

 

What would work is if the every state and the Federal government refuse to give the boy scouts any benefits unless they stopped discriminating against gays. Then they would quickly change their policies, the benefits the boy scouts get from the government are quite vast.

[Benji]

Yeah even if there was an anti-discrimination law that protected gay and lesbian workers, it may not have helped this guy since religious organizations would be exempt if they are hiring someone who is teaching one of their core beliefs (so like the catholic church wouldn't be required to hire a gay rights activist as a priest, but it couldn't discriminate against the same person if he or she was applying for a job as a secretary). Although he might have a case if he can prove he was just a scuba instructor and not a guy teaching the "Boy Scout values." Whatever those are.

 

What would work is if the every state and the Federal government refuse to give the boy scouts any benefits unless they stopped discriminating against gays. Then they would quickly change their policies, the benefits the boy scouts get from the government are quite vast.

 

 

...........I believe that is happening, way too slowly! I don't remember how the Supreme Court ruled on this decision. There needs to be a "Fed" law on anti-discrimination.

[Graeme]

...........I believe that is happening, way too slowly! I don't remember how the Supreme Court ruled on this decision. There needs to be a "Fed" law on anti-discrimination.

The Supreme Court ruled in favour of "Freedom of Association". This meant that because the BSA are a private organisation, they are allowed to set the rules of who they will admit as members and who they will exclude. While I dislike the discrimination, I believe this is the correct ruling, given the constitution of the USA.

 

I don't believe the Supreme Court has ruled regarding employment, though -- their ruling was on membership, not employment.

[Razor]

I know it won't do anything, but I really want to write an angry letter. That or impale several of them with tent spikes.

[scoopny]

Yeah the argument in the Boy Scouts case was that the Boys Scouts were not a private organization but a common carrier like a hotel or a teen center, which meant it couldn't exclude people because of that person's beliefs. The Supreme court by a 5 to 4 decision found that the Boy Scouts were not a common carrier even though it took every boy who applied because it said one of its core beliefs was that homosexuality and atheism were against its beliefs and the court ruled that the state couldn't force them to accept members who had beliefs that differed from the Boy Scouts. It was basically a 1st amendment case.

[scoopny]

But of course the problem with the case I think is that the Boy Scouts were allowed to remove people who were gay, even though these people never said anything as scouts about homosexuality and it left open the possibility that gay people were banned, even if they were opposed to homosexuality while straight people who support gay rights would not be excluded or even religious people who believed athietists belonged in the organization. Anyway that's my rant about the Dale case.

[S.L. Lewis]

I just read this, and wow. I can't help but think about how prejudice the American people are still if this happens. Makes me frown and want to shoot some one...maybe.

[FrenchCanadian]

But of course the problem with the case I think is that the Boy Scouts were allowed to remove people who were gay, even though these people never said anything as scouts about homosexuality and it left open the possibility that gay people were banned, even if they were opposed to homosexuality while straight people who support gay rights would not be excluded or even religious people who believed athietists belonged in the organization. Anyway that's my rant about the Dale case.

 

It's kinda ironic tho,, I'll have to say, scout camps are pictured as a place where teen boy will explore their body together,,,

[Menzoberranzen]

It's kinda ironic tho,, I'll have to say, scout camps are pictured as a place where teen boy will explore their body together,,,

 

That's only because you read stories from GayAuthors

[glomph]

While I wasn't personally involved, I was aware of several examples of that at scout camp, and nobody seemed to treat it as anything unusual. Perhaps things are very different now, and maybe these activities would be considered gay today.

[FrenchCanadian]

That's only because you read stories from GayAuthors

 

ya, maybe i'm reading too much stories, but scoopny once told me that he was in a circle jerk at a scout camp,, I got this other friend that did "gay" stuff at a camp too, it finished in a rape,, but still, it doesn't help.

 

that makes me think, maybe that's why, they might have thought gay = will try something on a boy.

[moonwolf]

ya, maybe i'm reading too much stories, but scoopny once told me that he was in a circle jerk at a scout camp,, I got this other friend that did "gay" stuff at a camp too, it finished in a rape,, but still, it doesn't help.

 

that makes me think, maybe that's why, they might have thought gay = will try something on a boy.

 

 

having been a boy scout here's my experience when I was a teen

 

ok basic formula

 

5-6 teenagers (13-15 yrs old) together in 1 tent + summer + 8 days without girls + hormones in a frenzy + wanting to take some of the pressure off = possible sexual act from circle jerk to the other stuff

 

and yes that happenned

[FrenchCanadian]

having been a boy scout here's my experience when I was a teen

 

ok basic formula

 

5-6 teenagers (13-15 yrs old) together in 1 tent + summer + 8 days without girls + hormones in a frenzy + wanting to take some of the pressure off = possible sexual act from circle jerk to the other stuff

 

and yes that happenned

 

darn it,, I did miss out on nice things

[scoopny]

Let me explain how the boy scouts works at least for me. Well at the beginning everyone was it. But by the way you're 15, a lot of guys (especially straight guys) are distracted by girls so who wants to spend a week in a tent with a bunch of boys? Except, of course, those special type of boys ;-). Or at least ones who are a little curious, heh.

 

Also we had the Order of the Arrow, which was basically a scout group that pretended they were Native Americans, right down to the loincloth .

Edited February 13, 2008 by scoopny

[Tiger]

having been a boy scout here's my experience when I was a teen

 

ok basic formula

 

5-6 teenagers (13-15 yrs old) together in 1 tent + summer + 8 days without girls + hormones in a frenzy + wanting to take some of the pressure off = possible sexual act from circle jerk to the other stuff

 

and yes that happenned

darn it,, I did miss out on nice things

You're not the only one.

[Lugh]

I guess my son and I are having a different scouting experience than most then because no one has come out and asked "are you gay". There are two boys in the pack he den cheifs for who are "of non-traditional religious upbringing" (one has parents who are athiest, but his parents said that it is up to him to decide if there is a god or not, and if so then which god he wants to worship) and the cubmaster is a long hair buddist. Granted it was the smallest pack in the district, but oddly it won most of the awards and turned over quality Arrow of Light scouts to the troops.

 

There has long been a rule of "what happens in the woods stays in the woods" -- so long as no one is hurt. I have served in several functions in the scouting program, including trainer.

 

The cubmaster did know that I am gay. He asked me if that made me break the 12 points of the law. I told him no. He told me then it really didn't matter who I slept with any more than any other single parent who might be dating. He (We) haven't discussed it since.

 

My son likes scouts for the outdoor skills. I haven't found any other program that even comes close. What I would like to see though, is scouting (or some alternitive) to be a bit more inclusive and accessable to all -- from what I've seen it's 90% white boys from 2 parent households where the (step)father is active in their life. That describes less than a quarter of the actual population (just a guess so it's probably less). Single mothers who want to have their boys experience scouts are driven out of the program by the time their sons reach "boy scout" age (11), although mothers are generally the backbone of the cub program.

 

We pay our own way. Unfortunately that means some of that money is spent to support the bigots in charge. But what other alternitives are there out there?

[Tiger]

I guess my son and I are having a different scouting experience than most then because no one has come out and asked "are you gay". There are two boys in the pack he den cheifs for who are "of non-traditional religious upbringing" (one has parents who are athiest, but his parents said that it is up to him to decide if there is a god or not, and if so then which god he wants to worship) and the cubmaster is a long hair buddist. Granted it was the smallest pack in the district, but oddly it won most of the awards and turned over quality Arrow of Light scouts to the troops.

 

There has long been a rule of "what happens in the woods stays in the woods" -- so long as no one is hurt. I have served in several functions in the scouting program, including trainer.

I hope that they don't kick you out. I can understand why they might not wanting you discussing it with the troops, but they take it to an extreme if they find out for any reason at all. I don't understand why they are so closed-minded. Once again, I'm reminded why we need more anti-discrimination laws in the United States.

[old bob]

When I read that, I'm almost happy to live in Europa !

As a former boy scout, I must say I made the same (happy) experiences as Moonwolf .

To see what happens in the other countries, I mad some researches on Wiki :

In countries where homosexuality is legal, there is usually at least one Scouting association that does not restrict homosexuals from membership or leadership positions. An exception is the United States.

Homosexuals are not restricted from membership or leadership positions in Scouts Canada and most European associations, including The Scout Association of the United Kingdom, Ring deutscher Pfadfinderverb