Is it just me or...

[myself_i_must_remake]

yeah i always thought i had these sharper teeth near the front for a reason.

[Krista]

If chickens and turkey didn't exist I'd be a vegetarian. I just don't like eating anything else as it's a taste issue with me and I'm a picky eater (although, I'll try anything once if it's bbq'd)

 

It's easy to say it's not wrong when you've been subject to eating meat in your lifetime. It's also easy to say no when most people don't see what goes into the steps from a live animal to the plate at home... I know I don't really want to see the steps myself, but living in Kentucky I have seen a chicken meet his end once and it didn't phase me at all. Definitely not something I'd work on doing as a practice though, even if my neighbor's chickens drive me insane daily when they fly over our fence and scratch around my flowers.. so watching a few of those killed for dinner would be justified.

[AFriendlyFace]

Well, whaddya know, I broke the "everyone votes no" thing. I opted for yes, if it's the factory farmed deal.

 

I am a vegetarian, but I've always maintained that while animal rights and their ethical treatment has been a part of that the main reason is that I simply don't particularly like very many meats. I like some namely most types of boneless chicken and seafood almost any way I can get it, but I've had a lot of different meats in my lifetime ranging from very fancy to very simple and I can safely say with the exception of poultry and seafood I've almost unilaterally be much more interested in whatever vegetable/bread/side dish came with the meal.

 

So, it while it would be easier to still not be a vegetarian and eat the chicken or whatever on the rare occasions I wanted it - and indeed this is what I did for years, eating meat maybe 2 or 3 times a week - I ultimately decided that I'd feel better about the whole thing swearing off it completely, and it just wasn't a very big sacrifice for me to make.

 

I really, completely, and utterly don't care what other people are doing on this front if they're simply consumers. I would never sit around ranting at someone to put down the roast and back away from the sandwich. In many ways it's sort of like my approach to religion. Do whatever works for you dude. I've got my own ideas and opinions, and I'll tell you about them if you ask, but I'm just going to mind my own business.

 

Anyway since you did ask:

 

 

These people have been putting emphasis on showing people how graphic factory farming can be. They keep these animals in very confined spaces, and do some other less than nice things, but the reason they do this is in order to reduce costs and maximize efficiency; otherwise our food would cost a LOT more.

 

...

 

See, the thing is, you're going to be killing the animal... so I don't really see how you can call the practice of maximizing efficiency, minimizing cost, and making the whole process as easy and fast as possible "cruel". You could maybe even go so far as gruesome, but not really cruel.

 

I like my meat. I would prefer my meat providers not to be cruel and inhumane, but not at the price of, well, rising prices.

 

I'm sorry, but personally I completely and thoroughly disagree, and frankly I do find those notions pretty *searches for a nicer synonym* distasteful, I'm going to go with "distasteful".

 

Cost? Money? Geez! Are those really things that are more important than the suffering, misery, and death of another living being?

 

It's ironic that it's the so-called civilised economically affluent people that force prices down and don't value food.

In places where food isn't seen as a low-value commodity it is highly valued and people are prepared to allocate a much larger percentage of their per-capita income to it.

Exactly, put away your ipods and cell phones before you start bitching to me about prices (and I'm NOT directing these comments to Jamie or Corvus, I mean the argument in general). It's a viable concern if you're living in poverty, but proportionally very few Americans and other 1st world citizens are. Oh they might classify according to the way their country evaluates it, but if they do have things beyond the basics in food, water, and shelter, it's not the way I'm defining "poverty" in this case.

 

As I said, I'm not going to rant at people or try to convince them one way or the other. Indeed I don't for a minute think vegetarianism would be the right choice for the majority of people. But making weak justifications about "cost" while you're plunking down 4 bucks for coffee, paying for high speed internet, and wearing new clothes is just....well now I can't find a "nice synonym" so I'll just stop there.

 

Anyway, I spent a considerable amount of time on a farm myself in my childhood, both beef and grain, and it's very true that people just don't appreciate farmers and their commodities. All we're concerned about is lower prices, lower prices, lower prices, and we don't care if that effectively results in the closing of small farms and the "trimming off of the fat" at larger ones.

 

In a few generations I doubt they'll be very many farms left in the US at all. We'll be ever importing even more of our food. And actually, I'm not sure if I even consider this a uniformly bad thing. I just hope no one is surprised.

 

 

Anyway, on a separate note, I have a very pragmatic view about what's right and what's wrong regarding this, and much of it depends on the specific animal. Not all animals are created equally. For example pigs are highly intelligent and personally I'm honestly not comfortable consuming them under any circumstances (although fortunately I never liked pork, in fact I've always thought it to be the least palatable meat). On the opposite end of the spectrum I have virtually no reservations - beyond the most basic respect of life - when it comes to shrimp and other shellfish. They're extremely primitive and stupid and it's unlikely they even have a system of pain and pleasure that humans and other mammals can even identify with. All the other animals fall somewhere between those two polls as far as I'm concerned and I expect their treatment to be comparable to their position on this spectrum.

 

It's all about what you are, or get, accustomed to Tim. I know lots of vegans who are much healthier than I am. It's just a mattter of getting the right mix of proteins and other stuff.

Yeah, I watch my protein and nutritional intake a lot better than I did before I was a vegetarian and I have a lot more energy, and I'm sick much less often. As I said, this won't work for all, or even most, people, but it works for me.

 

Anyway, I realize that this post might come across as a bit overly vitriolic, and I especially apologize to Jamie and Corvus if it seemed as though I was too harsh regarding them. It's just I do very much disagree with those ideas and arguments regarding cost. However, I'm always pleased to hear from these two. In fact they're honestly two of my favourite posters, and I certainly spend a great deal more time sitting in awe at their insightful, intelligent posts than I do disagreeing with them (indeed it's remarkably rare that I disagree with either's thoughts on a given subject).

 

Take care all and have a great day

 

Kevin

Edited March 18, 2008 by AFriendlyFace

[GaryK]

Hey, look at how vegetables are treated! Genetically altered. Forced to live in close confines. Sprayed with pesticides. Ripped from the ground with mean looking machines, tortured as they're processed by all sorts of other machines. It's all so inhuman and inhumane. Is there really such a big difference between how we treat cows and how we treat potatoes?

 

[Tiger]

Hey, look at how vegetables are treated! Genetically altered. Forced to live in close confines. Sprayed with pesticides. Ripped from the ground with mean looking machines, tortured as they're processed by all sorts of other machines. It's all so inhuman and inhumane. Is there really such a big difference between how we treat cows and how we treat potatoes?

 

I happen to hate pesticides. I think I should join the organic craze.

[S.L. Lewis]

I agree. Let's work on Rose to fix me some snake when I go see her. She's doesn't wanna do that.

 

I don't want to kill the cute snake though. It'll make me think of my friends snake and you can't do that here any more, even if you buy it from a store.

Anyways, I would like to see most places get better at keeping their animals, but most places that farm animals for the meat actually take pretty good care of the animals.

[GaryK]

I don't want to kill the cute snake though. It'll make me think of my friends snake and you can't do that here any more, even if you buy it from a store.

Anyways, I would like to see most places get better at keeping their animals, but most places that farm animals for the meat actually take pretty good care of the animals.

Maybe so. But it's the few, like KFC, that give everyone else a bad name. I saw a documentary on how their chickens are treated. Since then I've never gone to KFC.

 

I won't eat veal cause I 've seen how veal calves are treated. It gives me the shivers. Same thing with geese...no more goose liver pate for me.

[S.L. Lewis]

Maybe so. But it's the few, like KFC, that give everyone else a bad name. I saw a documentary on how their chickens are treated. Since then I've never gone to KFC.

 

I won't eat veal cause I 've seen how veal calves are treated. It gives me the shivers. Same thing with geese...no more goose liver pate for me.

 

 

I can't stand KFC. If I want fried chicken that I don't want to cook, I'll go somewhere else. There's plenty of small resturants around here.

Anyways, I'll stick with my duck, other game birds (besides geese), steak, pork, ham and hamburger. I don't like veal and I don't like goose. It doesn't taste right to me.

[GaryK]

See, my problem is I grew up on KFC and also happen to love foie gras and veal. But my ethical considerations far outweigh my desire to consume those things.

[S.L. Lewis]

See, my problem is I grew up on KFC and also happen to love foie gras and veal. But my ethical considerations far outweigh my desire to consume those things.

 

 

I know how you feel. It's just...ugh.

[AFriendlyFace]

Hey, look at how vegetables are treated! Genetically altered. Forced to live in close confines. Sprayed with pesticides. Ripped from the ground with mean looking machines, tortured as they're processed by all sorts of other machines. It's all so inhuman and inhumane. Is there really such a big difference between how we treat cows and how we treat potatoes?

There's also a big difference between a potato and a cow. They don't deserve or warrant the same treatment. That's what I was trying to get at when I pointed out that there was a very big difference between what I find acceptable treatment of pigs and shellfish, vegetables and plants would be considerably below shellfish on that scale.

 

When it comes to how to treat living things I think one ought to consider such things as their degree of sentience, emotion, and sensation. The potato doesn't get scared, it doesn't hurt, and it isn't sitting there thinking about it's fate. A cow definitely gets alarmed, definitely feels pain, and there's really no telling what's going on in their brains. A pig, or dolphin or something would take all the cow stuff to a higher level, and a human being would presumably take it to the highest. I just think we ought to try to act accordingly.

 

-Kevin

Edited March 19, 2008 by AFriendlyFace

[GaryK]

There's also a big difference between a potato and a cow. They don't deserve or warrant the same treatment. That's what I was trying to get at when I pointed out that there was a very big difference between what I find acceptable treatment of pigs and shellfish, vegetables and plants would be considerably below shellfish on that scale.

 

When it comes to how to treat living things I think one ought to consider such things as their degree of sentience, emotion, and sensation. The potato doesn't get scared, it doesn't hurt, and it isn't sitting there thinking about it's fate. A cow definitely gets alarmed, definitely feels pain, and there's really no telling what's going on in their brains. A pig, or dolphin or something would take all the cow stuff to a higher level, and a human being would presumably take it to the highest. I just think we ought to try to act accordingly.

 

-Kevin

I am not picking at nits here. Sorry for the potentially annoying euphemism. I'm serious.

 

Clearly you've never listened to, or at least appreciated "The Trees" from the Hemisphere's album by Rush.

 

I remain unconvinced, due to a lack of sufficient empirical evidence, that plants do not feel emotions. If they do it probably won't be at as high a level as cows, pigs and porpoises. But hey, feelings are feelings, right?

[FrenchCanadian]

I absolutely don't mind eating meat,,, probably because if I did, well I wouldn't be eating much,, but that's another story,,, ,,,, Tho, I would say, when it comes about how those animals are treated before they go by the chopper, that I have a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude...

 

Tho I gotta say that I wouldn't eat *goat* meat,

[Tiger]

I absolutely don't mind eating meat,,, probably because if I did, well I wouldn't be eating much,, but that's another story,,, ,,,, Tho, I would say, when it comes about how those animals are treated before they go by the chopper, that I have a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude...

 

Tho I gotta say that I wouldn't eat *goat* meat,

I don't think I would eat goat meat either, though I hear their cheese can be good. There are probably some meats in which you would rather not know how they are made. I will leave it at that.

[Benji]

I don't think I would eat goat meat either, though I hear their cheese can be good. There are probably some meats in which you would rather not know how they are made. I will leave it at that.

 

 

.......I don't know, but I hear bar-b-qued goat is quite good!

[Tiger]

.......I don't know, but I hear bar-b-qued goat is quite good!

Some might say the same about scrambled eggs and brains, but I am not trying it.

[BeaStKid]

.......I don't know, but I hear bar-b-qued goat is quite good!

I love goat meat...no offence to the resident goat, but here, in India, we have goat's meat quite often...

[Tiger]

I love goat meat...no offence to the resident goat, but here, in India, we have goat's meat quite often...

I thought animals were sacred in India. I know you cows. I respect the religion, but I do not understand it.

[BeaStKid]

I thought animals were sacred in India. I know you cows. I respect the religion, but I do not understand it.

Yes, Hindus worship cows. It is considered a sacred animal and that is why Hindus do not eat beef. Most of the Sikhs, like me, also do not eat beef. Muslims do not eat pork.

 

But goat, everyone enjoys here. (well, almost everyone.)

[Benji]

I thought animals were sacred in India. I know you cows. I respect the religion, but I do not understand it.

 

 

........Not to shock you but I have eaten dog, cat and monkey also. I did not like the cat

[BeaStKid]

........Not to shock you but I have eaten dog, cat and monkey also. I did not like the cat

I have eaten sharks, prawns, crabs, shellfish, snakes, rabbits, bluebulls, Grey Francolin, quails, chickens, pork, beef (only once), shrimps and not to mention different varieties of fish.... Phew!

[Tiger]

Yes, Hindus worship cows. It is considered a sacred animal and that is why Hindus do not eat beef. Most of the Sikhs, like me, also do not eat beef. Muslims do not eat pork.

 

But goat, everyone enjoys here. (well, almost everyone.)

I do not know if I could eat goats. I happen to love beef and pork though. I don't think I could live in India.

[Benji]

I do not know if I could eat goats. I happen to love beef and pork though. I don't think I could live in India.

 

 

........I also don't eat pork, but the goat is just a relative of the lamb and I love lamb

[BeaStKid]

I do not know if I could eat goats. I happen to love beef and pork though. I don't think I could live in India.

You'd be surprised to see the number of vegetarians here. All Brahmin Hindus are vegetarians, for example. All Gursikhs and Naamdhaari Sikhs are vegetarians... to name a few...

 

And what about frog legs? People eat that too... :wacko:

 

Let me not go into what tribals eat!! I have seen a man eat a cockroach!!

[Tiger]

You'd be surprised to see the number of vegetarians here. All Brahmin Hindus are vegetarians, for example. All Gursikhs and Naamdhaari Sikhs are vegetarians... to name a few...

 

And what about frog legs? People eat that too... :wacko:

 

Let me not go into what tribals eat!! I have seen a man eat a cockroach!! *Gary's puking smiley can go in here*

That is gross! I hate roaches, and I will never eat frog legs. I do not care if my mom thinks they are good. The thought makes me want to hurl. :wacko: