What is a real man?

[Mark Arbour]

I was pondering this just yesterday. In the past, words such as honor defined a real man. A real man would be someone who would keep his word, a real man was someone who would admit a mistake (apparently George Bush missed that one), a real man was someone who would stick up for those who were weaker or in need, who was kind and charitable. Then we had the comical version in the '80s, "Real Men Don't Eat Quiche," where the focus was not on masculine virtues, but on masculinity in general. It took the more medieval concepts and made them more about NASCAR.

 

So I'm wondering what today's "real man" would be like? Do we still perceive him as the model of harsh masculinity, who will drink beer and not wine, eat pretzels and not beer, or do we view him as someone who is strong in the more esoteric virtues?

[Tiger]

I was pondering this just yesterday. In the past, words such as honor defined a real man. A real man would be someone who would keep his word, a real man was someone who would admit a mistake (apparently George Bush missed that one), a real man was someone who would stick up for those who were weaker or in need, who was kind and charitable. Then we had the comical version in the '80s, "Real Men Don't Eat Quiche," where the focus was not on masculine virtues, but on masculinity in general. It took the more medieval concepts and made them more about NASCAR.

 

So I'm wondering what today's "real man" would be like? Do we still perceive him as the model of harsh masculinity, who will drink beer and not wine, eat pretzels and not beer, or do we view him as someone who is strong in the more esoteric virtues?

My view is that a real man is a protector, someone of virtue who stands up for the people around him, not through brute force but through logic whenever possible. He's not afraid to show his emotion when the time is right, and he's confident, not arrogant, and comfortable in his own skin. These are the qualities of a real man. As for George Bush and whether or not he is a real man, that is a discussion for The Soapbox.

[Graeme]

My view is that a real man is someone who has an X and a Y chromosome. Other than that, I believe you're asking for what are the attributes of a man that people respect.

 

Unfortunately, respect is a very individual thing. Some people respect a stoic attitude. Others respect someone who can show emotion.

 

It's also possible to respect someone and not like them. For example, I respect the attributes integrity and honesty, but if the person's integrity is concerning something I disagree strongly with, then that's a negative as far as potentially liking them.

 

What's a real man? Whatever you want it to be....

[Bondwriter]

I got the answer to this question a decade ago, in a great movie by the Coen Brothers.

The Big Lebowski: What makes a man, Mr. Lebowski?

The Dude: Dude.

The Big Lebowski: Huh?

The Dude: Uhh... I don't know sir.

The Big Lebowski: Is it being prepared to do the right thing, whatever the cost? Isn't that what makes a man?

The Dude: Hmmm... Sure, that and a pair of testicles.

[TalonRider]

I'm going to quote the lyric's to one of my favorite Boston songs from their album, Third Stage.

 

To Be A Man

 

What does it take to be a man?

What does it take to see it's a heart and soul, a gentle hand?

So easy to want and so hard to give

 

We can be blind, but a man tries to see

It takes tenderness for a man to be what he can be

 

And what does it mean if you're weak or strong?

A gentle feelin' can make it right or make it wrong

What does it take to be a man?

 

The will to give and not receive

The strength to say what you believe

The heart to feel what others feel inside

To see what they can see

 

A man is something that is real

It's not what you are

It's what you can feel

It can't be too late

To look thru the hate

And see

I know that's what a man can be.

[Duncan Ryder]

It's pretty hard to say it better than good old Rudyard....

 

If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you

But make allowance for their doubting too,

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,

Or being hated, don't give way to hating,

And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

 

If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,

If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

And treat those two impostors just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken

Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,

And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

 

If you can make one heap of all your winnings

And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

And never breath a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

To serve your turn long after they are gone,

And so hold on when there is nothing in you

Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

 

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;

If all men count with you, but none too much,

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,

And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

 

--Rudyard Kipling

[Daisy]

It's pretty hard to say it better than good old Rudyard....

 

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,

And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

 

--Rudyard Kipling

 

 

Hmm. I'm breaking my staying away thing, I desperatley needed a night off from working though, so I'm justifing it .

 

thats one of my favourite poems, but I always ignore the man part .

 

I think I agree with Graem about the dna thing. but even then thats complicated and not clear cut.

so what is a real woman? and I'll see if I fit the current stereotype or not. this is talking about ideals, and possibly what we are looking for or expecting out of modern people. and so the real or modern woman has evolved quite abit.

 

right, slinking away again ,

celia

[corvus]

I agree w/ Graeme that a "real man" is a semantically flawed (or maybe just politically incorrect...) phrase. So I won't use it. A man I respect would be more apt. Interestingly, in this context, there's no difference between the criteria that I hold for respecting a man and for respecting a woman. I think a truly respectable human being is marked by awareness and humility. A great human being would also have strength and passion.

 

My two cents...

Edited December 4, 2008 by corvus

[David McLeod]

My view is that a real man is a protector, someone of virtue who stands up for the people around him, not through brute force but through logic whenever possible. He's not afraid to show his emotion when the time is right, and he's confident, not arrogant, and comfortable in his own skin. These are the qualities of a real man. As for George Bush and whether or not he is a real man, that is a discussion for The Soapbox.

 

 

I'm thinking of a recent fracas that angered a lot of people, but made sense on a visceral level: a campaign urging people to "Be good for goodness' sake."

 

A real person (man or woman) is someone who understands what is right, not because it was "revealed" by religion, but because it is innately right (and yes, I believe that there is such a thing), and who then follows that path.

[David McLeod]

My view is that a real man is someone who has an X and a Y chromosome. Other than that, I believe you're asking for what are the attributes of a man that people respect.

 

Unfortunately, respect is a very individual thing. Some people respect a stoic attitude. Others respect someone who can show emotion.

 

It's also possible to respect someone and not like them. For example, I respect the attributes integrity and honesty, but if the person's integrity is concerning something I disagree strongly with, then that's a negative as far as potentially liking them.

 

What's a real man? Whatever you want it to be....

 

 

Yeah, by his standards, the Godfather had integrity: he followed the rules he believed in. That's a rather fundamental definition of integrity, but it is an important one. Integrity, in itself, isn't necessarily noble. It's the underlying values that determine nobility.

[David McLeod]

The strength to say what you believe...

 

That's heavy.

[hh5]

mmmm TIM THE TOOL TIME TAYLOR!!!!

 

James Belushi- Real Men

Sean Connery

 

Arnold????

 

I guess for me its a man with character, dignity, much pathos, good shape and good looking. Someone you trust your life with.

Edited December 4, 2008 by hh5

[myself_i_must_remake]

yeah i'm on the let's not make gender roles boat.

 

i.e. corvus's defining a human being.

 

real man? chromosomes would do, if that.

 

(das Mann?)

[Duncan Ryder]

Hmm. I'm breaking my staying away thing, I desperatley needed a night off from working though, so I'm justifing it .

 

thats one of my favourite poems, but I always ignore the man part .

 

Well...it's "man" because the poem is a father to son thing...so he's telling his son about growing into a man. Equally applicable...

[hh5]

yeah i'm on the let's not make gender roles boat.

 

i.e. corvus's defining a human being.

 

real man? chromosomes would do, if that.

 

(das Mann?)

 

ok then I guess I has to "Jamie Lee Curtis" and "Kathy Bates" to this real man discussion

like to see what happens if their were flipped chromosomes.

[hh5]

Well...it's "man" because the poem is a father to son thing...so he's telling his son about growing into a man. Equally applicable...

 

But I can imagine the son saying to his father "But Dad, I am GAY Drama Queen"

 

But considering Kipling stories -> reminding the boys in the story what it takes to be be a real man,

the heroric man that shows us the actions they take to be a real man,

but it takes real woman to remind the two males the most important quality to be being a "real Man"

 

but then I stand being corrected by corvus, lesfeuxdemoncoeur => the real "Human Being"

 

and it seems that most stories says that you need both gender qualities for neither one is complete without the other

[Mark Arbour]

It's pretty hard to say it better than good old Rudyard....

 

If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you

But make allowance for their doubting too,

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,

Or being hated, don't give way to hating,

And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

 

If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,

If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

And treat those two impostors just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken

Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,

And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

 

If you can make one heap of all your winnings

And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

And never breath a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

To serve your turn long after they are gone,

And so hold on when there is nothing in you

Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

 

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;

If all men count with you, but none too much,

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,

And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

 

--Rudyard Kipling

 

I'm not a big fan of poems, but I like this one. Thanks Duncan. Still, I wonder if Oscar Wilde did anything on this topic? It probably wouldn't be nearly as cerebral and meaningful, but it would have been witty.

[glomph]

If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs

 

Maybe they know something you don't.

 

The concept of a "real man" can easily summon up stereotypes, and especially "straight" stereotypes.

 

Even NASCAR stereotypes are way overblown. The biggest NASCAR fan I know is a black woman who has a master's degree. I've attended chamber music concert series that were made possible in part by substantial gifts from the manager of one of the main NASCAR tracks. Etc.

 

But I do agree with those above who place integrity and strength of character at the top of the list of what makes a "real man."

[jfalkon]

I think a "real man" has all the characteristics that you look for in a human being. It is very individual. What is wonderful in a man to me is not wonderful by other people's standards.

 

I think the term has been used to manipulate young guys and that is the reason it exists. For example, the frustrated parent my tell his or her son to "take it like a man," just to get the kid to stop complaining. A pushy teenager may convince a classmate to do something he does not want to because it's something "real men" do.

 

"Real man" is not the only term that is used to control people. Here are a few examples off the top of my head:

"Feel like a real woman."

"Why are you so imature?"

"Don't be such a baby."

"Be a team player," or a "gogeter" or a "leader"

 

There's tons of them. They look like inocent words but heaven help you if you are not a team player at work or if you are imature. If you are curently in school you could easily get the idea that you must either become a leader or you will go to hell. Baby is a four letter word. Any five year old who is labled that is instantly offended. They are only words! I think we need to relax and not worry so much.

[KJames]

What is a real man? You ask such a deep question with five simple words, which has several answers depending on whom you ask. Those five words have provided endless debate for several decades. In light of the more out among us the definition might now be modified again...however slight or great that may be. Several of you have provided points, poetry, prose, and quotes as guidelines, which I may end up repeating here. I don't usually post on such deep topics, I'm a fun lover--you should take notes.

 

-----

 

What is a real man?

 

A real man is compassionate toward others, without compromise,

 

A real man accepts the compassion of others without feeling compromised.

 

A real man shows support and lifts friends up when they're down,

 

A real man lets friends support and lift him up when he is down.

 

A real man listens to friends,

 

A real man lets them talk about anything on their mind which troubles them;

 

A real man will share his burdens with friends, talking about anything on his mind which troubles him.

 

A real man cares enough to be honest and tell friends what he thinks whether or not they want to hear it--even if it shocks them;

 

A real man apologizes to his friends if he has hurt their feelings.

 

A real man cares enough about his friends that he will listen to what they have to tell him, even if he doesn't want to hear it;

 

A real man accepts apologies from his friends when they feel that they have hurt him.

 

A real man cares about and for his friends,

 

A real man loves all his friends.

 

A real man celebrates happy occasions with friends,

 

A real man joins a friend who needs to celebrate their happy occasion.

 

A real man shares bad news and cries with friends,

 

A real man lets his friends share their bad news then cries with them, too.

 

A real man shows affection toward friends without compromise for fear of what others might think.

 

A real man is not so much a man, as a human being,

 

A real man is not afraid to show his humanity.

-----

 

 

Edited December 5, 2008 by kjames

[Dolores Esteban]

I agree with your statements. In particular, I agree with your final statement.

[KJames]

I agree with your statements. In particular, I agree with your final statement.

 

 

It is meant to be taken whole, like a tablet or a pill, not a bite at a time like a banana where you can leave out the bad pieces if you don't like it.

Edited December 4, 2008 by kjames

[Daisy]

Well...it's "man" because the poem is a father to son thing...so he's telling his son about growing into a man. Equally applicable...

 

I'm sorry, I can't quite work out over the internet what you meant by 'equally applicable'.

 

I hope you meant that is equally applicable to a wo'man'. as already stated above, if unclear, that i like the poem because i did think it was/could refer to all human beings. its a tale of a parent to a child, a 'wise person' to a friend.

 

there are 2 different things being written about here, 'good' personal qualities we like as people suggest like integrity. and the more gendered whipping tools, but then even things like integrity are doing that, telling us how we should be or we look weak, a not whole person.

 

the gendered things, well yes, its all on the girl/lady/woman being seen as weaker and having weaker attributes, and then thats used as a reason to attack men, and women. and having to live up to these things, or fail is what its about. if you can't stand the pressure, get out of the fire, and into the home. and its a two edged thing, women, or guys, working hard to meet the demands of this masculine buisness world, or told the home is not the place to be, or you are too soft, not hard , not a real man. just like a girl is too soft, not for the world, to be included in the poem, not enough or intrinsicly to be included in the father/son thing. thats why I ignore it .

 

I don't think that mark described at the begining is that far from where we are today. I think alot of things have changed, progressively moved forward, but underneath it, or maybe inspite, there are alot of those feelings still there, and they are shown up in attitudes and language. people are expected to fit these roles, and are looked down on, gossiped about, or forced to alter their lives to suit other people because they can't get their head around someone doing things differently, or rather comfortably for them.

 

so, I don't like the terms 'real' men or woman, because what is 'real'?. you are saying everybody else is a fake, not good enough, and really does anyone fit those categories. do you, completely, or ever expect to? and i'm trying to think of an example of what a real woman would be, would she be gorgeous (curvy, thin?) and housewife, or would she be gorgeous, a housewife, a career woman, intelligent, with a full balance of outside interests, with time spare for campaigning on good causes....., or ..a prostitute who sticks to her morals. there is enough pressure, I want to be me, and let my conscious guide me.

 

celia

[Duncan Ryder]

I'm sorry, I can't quite work out over the internet what you meant by 'equally applicable'.

 

I hope you meant that is equally applicable to a wo'man'. as already stated above, if unclear, that i like the poem because i did think it was/could refer to all human beings. its a tale of a parent to a child, a 'wise person' to a friend.

 

Yes, that's what I meant.

[KJames]

Yes, that's what I meant.

 

Trying this from a BlackBerry...I reserve the priviledge of revising my earlier post as I see appripriate.

Edited December 5, 2008 by kjames