California Supreme Court to rule on Proposition 8 Tuesday

[NaperVic]

Looks like we'll finally know what's going to happen due to Prop 8 on Tuesday (this from the LA times)

 

California Supreme Court to rule on Proposition 8 Tuesday

[Mark Arbour]

I have a really bad feeling about this one. I'm thinking they'll uphold the proposition, but allow those already married to stay married.

[Jack Frost]

+1

 

I feel the same, Mark. But there is something in me that I feel a little that they will strike it down.

[Drewbie]

I hope at least they will allow the marriages to stay.

[NightOwl88]

I'm in two minds about this myself. My pessimistic side thinks they'll uphold the prop while my optimist side hopes it'll be abolished. I mean they did legalize gay marriage once before so why wouldn't they do it again?

 

But whatever happens, win or loose, prepare for a back lash from on faction or another. Especially if it get repealed .

 

Best Wishes

Nightowl

[W_L]

Well, if they rule for prop 8, we might see a new geographic migration of gay, lesbians, and Transgendered people towards the northeast.

 

Here's another history point: The Spanish Empire expelled the the Muslims and Jews from their domains after La Reconquista; it eventually led to the economic decline and fall of the Spanish empire after its meteoric rise to power in the 16th century. Ironic since California was claimed by the Spanish empire during the end of La Reconquista and the era of exploration 1492-1550.

[Mark Arbour]

Well, if they rule for prop 8, we might see a new geographic migration of gay, lesbians, and Transgendered people towards the northeast.

 

Here's another history point: The Spanish Empire expelled the the Muslims and Jews from their domains after La Reconquista; it eventually led to the economic decline and fall of the Spanish empire after its meteoric rise to power in the 16th century. Ironic since California was claimed by the Spanish empire during the end of La Reconquista and the era of exploration 1492-1550.

 

And another: the revocation of the Edict of Nantes by Louis XIV, which saw French protestants flee in droves to Holland, Great Britain, and the Americas, considerably weakening France's economy.

 

Just another reason to hate organized religion..and to note that those forces are still flexing their muscles today...which is how Prop 8 passed in the first place.

[rec]

While religion is one reason for the passage of Proposition 8, we can't forget that the highest percentage of support in California came from the African American community. The problem is bigger than just religion.

 

 

 

And another: the revocation of the Edict of Nantes by Louis XIV, which saw French protestants flee in droves to Holland, Great Britain, and the Americas, considerably weakening France's economy.

 

Just another reason to hate organized religion..and to note that those forces are still flexing their muscles today...which is how Prop 8 passed in the first place.

[DragonFire]

All I can do is keep fingers and everything else crossed that common sense will prevail......for once!

[Mark Arbour]

While religion is one reason for the passage of Proposition 8, we can't forget that the highest percentage of support in California came from the African American community. The problem is bigger than just religion.

 

Those two interests collide. Many African-Americans are very religious.

 

I heard after the election that African Americans were largely against Prop 8, but I never saw anything definitive (beyond speculation..more empirical) on that. Anyone seen something, a study, on that?

[W_L]

Those two interests collide. Many African-Americans are very religious.

 

I heard after the election that African Americans were largely against Prop 8, but I never saw anything definitive (beyond speculation..more empirical) on that. Anyone seen something, a study, on that?

 

We have exit polling data, African Americans were for prop 8 in the CNN exit polls with males predominantly for prop 8 as gender variable.

 

CNN Exit Poll

 

In the northeast, it is much easier due to a long history of individualism and diverse cultures mixing.

[rknapp]

The comments on that article were quite amusing. The will of the people? For the love of God (no pun intended, silly religious windbags) don't spoon feed me that bullshit. There was hardly more 50% of the votes supporting Prop 8, which by all counts means it was the will of hardly more than half the people. Going even further, it was the will of hardly more than 2% of the population's wallets.

 

A lot of people were crying about their vote not mattering anymore, yet they forget that they were voting essentially on changing very foundation of the United States and the true meaning of a constitution, which protects minorities from exactly what Prop 8 is, a revision that makes discrimination legal.

 

Disturbing still is the fact that many people actually believe that approving same sex marriage is also approving beastiality and child molestation. They actually believe the very obvious bullshit from those ads.

[Mark Arbour]

We have exit polling data, African Americans were for prop 8 in the CNN exit polls with males predominantly for prop 8 as gender variable.

 

CNN Exit Poll

 

In the northeast, it is much easier due to a long history of individualism and diverse cultures mixing.

 

Thanks WL!

[JJFlame]

Disturbing still is the fact that many people actually believe that approving same sex marriage is also approving beastiality and child molestation. They actually believe the very obvious bullshit from those ads.

 

It's quite easy to scare someone into siding with you, especially when they were predisposed to agree with you anyway and you're merely giving them something to say to support their bigotry. There has always been a very clear and very prominent part of American culture (the 'freest' country on earth) that rejects anything which doesn't subscribe to the norm. And homosexuality isn't just different, many people feel repulsion to their very core when they even think about two men having sex. Note: The preconception is that it's always about sex, sex is dirty, it's easy to treat sex with disdain, it's far more difficult to argue away love.

 

And until homosexuality isn't viewed as outlandish and a challenge to the values which mainstream America holds dear, then there will always be people willing to stand up and proudly say that they support hatefulness and bigotry, especially when they delude themselves with things like 'it's for the children'. It's a culture war. North versus south, conservative versus liberal. It's just another thing that's been filtered into our increasingly polarized and politicized culture. Everyone loves to have an opponent, everyone loves a cause to fight for, and just like every other minority that has found a way to acceptance in American culture, we're going to have to fight like hell for it.

 

But let me get off my soap box and discuss Prop 8. My gut tells me that they are going to uphold it. It would be a very bold step to reverse a popular (although slimly) vote when a part of the backlash to begin with was that it was viewed as undemocratic that the judiciary took it upon itself to give out the right to marry to gays. If they were to argue that the Supreme Court, in striking down Virginia's anti-miscegenation statute in 1967 found that marriage was a basic civil right and cannot be taken away, they might be able to get away with it without too much backlash (which by the way, I think should be the argument when EVERYONE brings it up). But Rush, Hannity and all the other right-wing blabbermouths will still find ways to froth about it, of course.

[W_L]

I will give it some time, but gay rights' organization should be prepared to make new alliances. In the wake of Prop 8 and the northeastern and mid-west moves toward gay marriage and equality legislation, it might lead to a new geographic migration.

 

In the previous examples of Spain and France, the economic collapse of both states was due to the exile of these groups. The Netherlands and England gained from their enemies losses and the financial experience of the Jews and Protestants would spur on their mutual empires.

 

-On a side note on American Migration, you might not remember this event in American History, but back in the 1930's, the migration of black farmers/sharecroppers to northern factories was significant to current day political and social alignments. The Grapes of Wrath is an interesting famous example from the Midwestern move to California, but the southern to northern migration had significant realities for the emergence of a new political paradigm. The Democrats began to take in the progressive wings of the Republican party and it pushed radicalization with generational conflicts between northern blacks with southern blacks.

 

Why did I give that history lesson? Simple, we might be seeing migration movements to northern states again if the equality movement is headed here, but this time with homosexuals. It will be an interesting time to see what will happen, when our different views collide.

 

I am getting more and more into Richard Wrights' Native Son and Black Boy novels about the merging of groups and the American differences.

[Trebs]

If anyone wants to react to the decision which will be released in a little over an hour, I've created a thread in the Soapbox to do so.

[NightOwl88]

Just came out, California has upheld Prop 8 banning Gay Marriage. The 18000 marriages preformed before te ban are still legal however. I guess there is some goodnews.

 

 

NightOwl88

[KJames]

Now the CA Supreme Court has created a separate and unequal class by allowing some of us to remain married, while preventing others of us from getting married.

[Benji]

Now the CA Supreme Court has created a separate and unequal class by allowing some of us to remain married, while preventing others of us from getting married.

 

............New lawsuit?? Maybe Obama's new choice for the Supreme Court will sort the mess out!

[JJFlame]

Just remember guys, this IS going to happen. It has to. We have more invested in equality than they have in making sure we are denied it. It's only a matter of time till the tides change, and that's because we're not stepping into someone else's life and saying yes you can do this, no you can't do that. We fight for something that's for ourselves, that we know we deserve. And we know how unjust it is that it is being denied to us. Just remember that when things like this happen, because they will happen. But in the long run, our cause is just, and history will reflect that.

[JJFlame]

[Benji]

 

.....................Sadly funny!!

[JJFlame]

.....................Sadly funny!!

 

 

Another one.

 

[Mark Arbour]

Rob Thomas' brief diatribe on gay marriage. I especially liked his contrast of civil unions and gay marriage.

 

 

 

Rob Thomas

Singer/Songwriter

 

Posted: May 27, 2009 12:43 PM

 

The Big Gay Chip on My Shoulder

 

 

I am a straight man, with a big gay chip on my shoulder.

 

A while back on my Twitter page (yes, I know how ridiculous it sounds), I mentioned that, if I believed in the devil, Pat Robertson might be him.

 

Being a fairly liberal-leaning guy with either liberal friends or Republican and Christian friends who don't believe that being one has anything to do with the other, I was surprised at how many people took offense to what I had to say.

 

These people weren't friends of Mr. Robertson but friends, apparently, of God. They had "spoken" with him and he had assured them that he was no friend of the gays. He also told them that he loved America more than any other country and was a huge fan of Dancing With the Stars.

 

The small controversy or "Twitter-versy" (patent on phrase pending) all started when I had made the mistake of asking why two people of the same sex shouldn't be able to make the same life-long commitment and (more importantly) under the same god, as straight people. Why can't my gay friends be as happily married as my wife and I? It seemed simple to me, but let me start off by telling you a series of things that I believe to be true:

 

I am a person who believes that people are born gay. I don't think you have any control over what moves you or to whom you're attracted. That's why it's called an attraction and not a choice.

 

I believe that America is a great nation of even greater people. I also believe that anyone who says that this is a "Christian nation" has RHS, or revisionist history syndrome, and doesn't realize that most of our founding fathers were either atheist or at least could see, even in the 1700s, that all through Europe at the time, religion was the cause of so much persecution that they needed to put into their brand new constitution a SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE so that the ideals of a group of people could never be forced onto the whole. (I also find it funny when people point out to me that it says "one nation under god" in our pledge of allegiance, not realizing that this was an addition made in 1954 during the communism scare of the McCarthy era. It's not surprising, however, knowing that these same people would punch me in the mouth if I called Jesus a Jew.)

 

I believe the fact that an atheist, who doesn't believe in God at all, is allowed to enter into the holy land of marriage while a gay Christian is not, shows that this law is arbitrary. Are we to believe that anyone who doesn't live their life according to the King James Bible isn't protected by the same laws that protect those who do? Using the same argument that I've seen on the 700 Club, that would mean that Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim weddings are also null and void.

 

I believe that to deny this right to the gay population is to say to them, "this god is not your god and he doesn't love you." There isn't one person who is against gay marriage that can give me a reason why it shouldn't be legal without bringing God or their religion into it. Still, I'm amazed at the audacity of a small, misdirected group of the ultra-conservative Christian right wing, to spend millions of dollars, in a recession, on advertisements to stop two men or women who love each other from being able to be married, but when you present any opposition to them, they accuse you of attacking their religion. Isn't it funny that the people who are the quickest to take someone's basic rights to happiness are always the loudest to scream when someone attacks their right to do so?

 

But this isn't a paper about religion. How could it be? Since we clearly have a separation of church and state, how could a conversation about laws have anything to do with religion at all? I'm writing about basic civil rights. We've been here before, fighting for the rights of African Americans or women to vote, or the rights of Jewish Americans to worship as they see fit. And, just as whites fought for African Americans or Christians for Jewish Americans, straight people must stand up and be a voice for gay people.

 

I've heard it said before, many times, that if two men or two women are allowed to join into a civil union together, why can't they be happy with that and why is it so important that they call it marriage? In essence, what's in a name?

 

A civil union has to do with death. It's essentially a document that gives you lower taxes and the right to let your faux spouse collect your insurance when you pass away. A marriage is about life. It's about a commitment. And this argument is about allowing people to have the right to make that commitment, even if it doesn't make sense to you. Anything else falls under the category of "separate but equal" and we know how that works out.

 

The support of legalizing gay marriage is in no way meant to change the ideals of the section of Christians who believe that homosexuality is a sin. But we should refuse to let other people's ideals shape the way we live our lives. Each of us has a short ride on this earth and as long as we stay in our lane, and don't affect someone else's ride, we should be allowed to drive as we see fit.

[JJFlame]

 

Yay for Rob Thomas! I knew there was a reason I liked his music.