Child Abuse - Are We Screwing Our Children

[Nephylim]

No I didn't mean it the way you thought I did... and you did didn't you. Interpretataion, assumption and misunderstanding are dangerous, very dangerous

 

What I meant was... are we screwing UP our children by this fascination and obsession with child abuse? When you have a baby the first thing the midwife tells you is how important skin to skin contact is for establishing bonds. And that doesn't just apply to babies, all children need closeness, physical contact to feel safe, cherished and secured. It's hot wired into them.

 

Last summer I went to a friend's barbecue. A friend of her whom I had never met was there with her two children. THe youngest, a girl of about 6 or 7, a tiny little thing with bright red curls, took a real shine to me and spent most of the evening sitting on my lap. She liked the colour of my hair and kept touching it and I enjoyed twirling her pretty curls around my finger. I got lots of hugs and kisses and we both had a lovely time playing all sorts of games. Her mother was joining in most of the time.

 

About seven years ago...no less than that maybe 5 I was heavily involved with re enactment. There were lots of children and many of them had parents who were more interested in socialising than their children. This was fine becuse they were perfectly safe and there were lots of people around but they were starved for attention and contact. Many many nights I would sit with my drink on a stone, one kid on my lap, two cuddled into my side and another three or four, all of various ages sitting around. I would tell stories, we would chat and there would be wrestling and tickling going on.

 

The one thing that both of these have in common is that either at the time, or looking back both of these entirely innocent passtimes has caused me a shiver of concern. What if someone had got the wrong impression? What if one of the children had innocently said something that sounded 'wrong' to their parents?

 

Recently a three year old child got out of the gate of her creche. She walked throught village, fell into a pond and died. The really sad thing is that two men saw her walking alone, thought that it was odd and that something should be done but were too afraid to approach her in case they were accused of something. That fear caused her death.

 

At a party at Christmas where we were staying over I commented to a friend that I was going to be sleeping with the most handsome man there... my 9 year old son. I thought nothing of it until she... jokingly... suggested I should be careful who I said things like that to.

 

My son often brings 'friends' home from school in his hair necessitating shampoo treatment. To make sure he gets all the shampoo out of his hair I go in the shower with him and shampoo his hair to within an inch of its life. Of corse we are both naked. I have clients, men and women, who wear bathing suits to shower their children or even when bathing them.

 

Where is the physical contact the children need... thrive on. Not just with their parents but their family and wider community. They need to know they belong. Children NEED to feel safe and the way they feel safe is to be touched, held, cuddled, bounced on your knee. Without that they get screwed up. Surely we learned those lessons in Victorian times... so why are we making the same mistakes again for different reasons.

 

I am not saying that children should be sent out there open to all trusting and vulnerable. Of course we have to keep them safe, protect them from danger, warn them to stay away from potentially dangerous situations. But there is a line and I think we are crossing it.

 

When my son comes running into my room on a Sunday morning, leaps onto me and bounces on my belly until i burp or fart I am not going to lie there wondering what other people might think, I am going to flip him over on his back and blow rapberries on his belly.

 

I did the same for my daughter and she is a strong, independent, warm and completely secure and well rounded woman who I am totally proud of. (and who, by the way got her exam results today and got a 2:1 degree (I think the USA equivalent is Magna Cum Laude) )

 

We have to protect our children from true danger but we have to stop seeing danger in every shadow, in every hug and cuddle and glimpse of a naked body otherwise we are going to lose our innocence and steal theirs.

[hh5]

I am a bit confused.

 

The only thing I get for two men is that fear of doing the right thing cause the death and the open gate is another. But it just illustrates an accident and whatever.

 

The men feared more of being accused of doing something wrong. ie: The girl screaming and the parents going crazy what did you do to my child and then the police charging the men with abuse. That be the wost case.

 

oh there is another scenario where a kid could use child abuse threat against their parent. If you hit me I will report you for child abuse.

 

 

Type of abuse: Neglect, Physical Abuse, Child Sexual Abuse, Psychological/Emotional Abuse

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse

 

I've been through the above in what be consider the best of being raised in an Asian family. The ideal best be if I was able to follow strictness perfectly I be minimally abused. But I wonder being different lead to my increased abuse.

 

In a different family abuse is quite normal and the kids are much more screwed up from the abuse.

 

I am sure you're bringing the point of where the scare of child abuse could lead to the child falling through the cracks in another way because people are staying away from being accused or labeled wrongfully.

 

Other people would say ... the parent neglected to keep their child safe from harm vs the men did or didn't do anything wrong - maybe neglect there in doing the right thing.

 

I have to say - if child abuse laws were seriously taken when I was growing up ... I be a different person today.

 

Tough topic

[Graeme]

Fear of being accused of child abuse is one reason why male primary school teachers are rare (I remember reading a report where male student teachers said that was a significant reason why they didn't go into primary school teaching). It's also the reason why even the female primary school teachers can be cautious with the kids. One of the teachers of our boys told us that she was advised to not give the kids hugs, because it could be misconstrued.

 

It's a tough issue.

 

I think we're narrowing the scope our children have for receiving affection, but we haven't closed it off, yet. Kids can still get the affection they deserve and need, and not just from their immediate family, but there is a degree of trust that needs to be established first for people outside the family to be able to offer affection. That's trust between that outsider and the parents of the children, not trust between the outsider and the children, but it needs to be there first before that affection can be safely offered.

 

Moving further afield, yes, strangers, especially men, are reluctant to approach a child because of the possible accusations. However, I'd like to think that a child that is obviously lost or in the wrong place should still have people approach them. It gets trickier when they are older (say, over seven or eight), as they could be legitimately out by themselves at that age.

[Benji]

 

Moving further afield, yes, strangers, especially men, are reluctant to approach a child because of the possible accusations. However, I'd like to think that a child that is obviously lost or in the wrong place should still have people approach them. It gets trickier when they are older (say, over seven or eight), as they could be legitimately out by themselves at that age.

 

.... It is tough situation, but it happened to me once, I saw a toddler obviously lost, or just exploring I immediately got the attention of others in the area, and as a group finally found the frantic mother. But I can see why the unfortunate hesitation of these two men in light of allegations being blown out of proportion.

[Hamen Cheese]

Where I come from there is usually a strong sense of extended family where you can have several generations living under the same roof. From what I've seen, these kinds of structures really help develop children emotionally especially since they get to interact with cousins/aunts/uncles/grandparents frequently. I think there's greater emphasis on the nuclear families in the west so in most cases the responsibility of caring for the child falls squarely on the parents - not something everyone can do.

 

On a side note, the whole issue of suing someone else is not as big a concern here as it probably is abroad. That is why for example it is said that we have some of the bravest (from an outsider's perspective) doctors in the world because they will do anything to try and save their patient's lives without much fear of being sued. There are still some that sue of course but it's not very often. Of course this can go both ways but I think it would be terrible if someone I knew (who could have lived) died because his doctor hesitated fearing legal action being done on him.

 

I can't be sure but I think this "I will sue you if I think you did something wrong" attitude is one of the reasons healthcare fees in the states are awfully expensive (they need a buffer for legal fees in case of lawsuits). This might just be speculation on my part.

[John Doe]

Ugh i hate this topic because it reminds me of the stupid ignorant people who blow things out of proportions. And I don't mean those arguing for a natural happy relationship between an adult and child but the idiots who yell child abuse. It reminds me of a case I studied in my siociology class where a female primary teacher was acccused of sexual molesting a child. A child went to the doctor and the doctor pat his back and he said that Ms. Jones does that to me. Well low and behold the mother caused an uproar and thankfully stupid uncle is a judge so thing was blown out of proportion. People started coming out of the woodworks accsuing this poor lady of molesting and sexually assaulting their children. Sayng things like she shoves object into children's orifice and peed on them while they napped. The whole thing was a circus. Parents told and forced their children to lie in court and the judge who happens to be related to the first idiot woman supported it because his nephew was "molested." Years afterwards another judge ruled in favor of the woman, because of the circus act and the admittance of some parents saying they were swept up in the fevor. Some refused to acknowledge their lies to this day. Poor woman had to and still carries that stigma of being that woman who molested primary school kids. A stigma that she could never take away. Now i'm pissed.... but yeah I don't blame those two guys or anyone else for that matter for acting like they do because there are douches like the stupid lame excuse of a mother who would yell rape and molestor, and people would come crawling out of holes and popping out of graves to accuse an innocent of doing something perverted to their children.

 

With that aside, I do hope that one day this changes because children do need that physical touch. Human beings are social creatures and we need others to feel at home and safe, whether it be a family, friends, or caring adult.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Cia

[JamesSavik]

Nephy has a point.

 

If I saw a kid bleeding in the streets, I would call 911 but I wouldn't go near it.

 

It's just too dangerous for anyone. I am sure that the climate of fear created by overzealous prosecutors and draconian sex laws has cost a lot of lives.

[Hamen Cheese]

Nephy has a point.

 

If I saw a kid bleeding in the streets, I would call 911 but I wouldn't go near it.

 

It's just too dangerous for anyone. I am sure that the climate of fear created by overzealous prosecutors and draconian sex laws has cost a lot of lives.

 

Now that makes me sad.

[hh5]

Not every culture supports close contact with their children.

Some times this is due to how tradition goes in that region or town or city or country.

Its a bad tradition because people fail to improve the social aspect of their children.

 

The heart of stone attitude ... hurts more than it helps.

 

Some still believe in the iron fist raising.

 

But I bet if someone abuse a kid ... you won't find that person living.

[Hoskins]

Yeah as a single gay guy you won't find me babysitting your kids anytime soon. Nor will you find me interacting with anyone under 21 without a damn good reason. And James nailed it - I'll assist from a distance but I won't even think of approaching kids who are alone or are in need.

 

I volunteer at a local gay organization once a week. I haven't had my background checks done yet so the only night I can be there is Wednesday, because that's the only night there are no youth events going on. it's not like I can just go somewhere else in the center when kids are around: nope, I can't be there on a volunteer basis at all on those nights. It's okay if I hang out as a member, but not as a volunteer, because apparently that changes things, somehow.

 

I used to run 12 step meetings at a rehab that had a youth program. I couldn't run those meetings without 2 other adults present, and at no time were kids allowed to be in a room alone with an adult. I'll give you two guesses about how to get what you want from a drug addicted teenager in a rehab, and the first guess doesn't count.

 

It's pretty infuriating to try to help young people when peope are expecting you to rape them or something instead.

 

And I blame the media for this situation. I don't think child sexual or violent abuse is any worse than it was twenty years ago. I think it's just reported more, which raises the hysteria level, which brings up the ratings, so the news media makes money when kids get abused. It's like a witch hunt.

 

So what's happening is this: neurotic helicopter parents are raising neurotic children that need their parents to apply to colleges for them, sit with them in job interviews, move into apartments near their colleges, and defend them against mean college professors that fail them when they don't do the footwork to pass a class.

 

My sister's niece is this way. She's a brilliant chemist who graduated from Purdue two years ago and has a great job at a large chemical company. She's had an incredibly tough time these last two years, acclimating to being an independent adult. She doesn't know how to handle money. She doesn't have a clue about dealing with legal contracts, or about how to cook, or about how to even do basic things like laundry. It's really disappointing. Her parents are STILL propping her up, and won't let her fail at anything.

 

I get that parents don't want their kids to fail, and that parents with the resources to help their kids can certainly ease the way. But people learn by making mistakes and through failure. It's been my experience that the lessons I've learned that have stuck with me have been lessons learned through experience. Having someone shield you from experiencing things is a mistake that's made far too often these days.

 

Now GET OFF MY LAWN

[Nephylim]

Fear of being accused of child abuse is one reason why male primary school teachers are rare (I remember reading a report where male student teachers said that was a significant reason why they didn't go into primary school teaching). It's also the reason why even the female primary school teachers can be cautious with the kids. One of the teachers of our boys told us that she was advised to not give the kids hugs, because it could be misconstrued.

 

It's a tough issue.

 

I think we're narrowing the scope our children have for receiving affection, but we haven't closed it off, yet. Kids can still get the affection they deserve and need, and not just from their immediate family, but there is a degree of trust that needs to be established first for people outside the family to be able to offer affection. That's trust between that outsider and the parents of the children, not trust between the outsider and the children, but it needs to be there first before that affection can be safely offered.

 

Moving further afield, yes, strangers, especially men, are reluctant to approach a child because of the possible accusations. However, I'd like to think that a child that is obviously lost or in the wrong place should still have people approach them. It gets trickier when they are older (say, over seven or eight), as they could be legitimately out by themselves at that age.

 

 

This is horrendous. It must be soul destroying when you love children (in the purest sense of the word) and you can't even pat them on the back or cuddle them when they're sad. I rememeber a couple of times when he was younger when my son came home from school in tears because his teacher wouldn't hug him when he was feeling sad,

 

Narrow minded people who jump to conclusions and then go on a witch hunt are dangerous. I don't think even they realise how dangerous they are.

 

Where I come from there is usually a strong sense of extended family where you can have several generations living under the same roof. From what I've seen, these kinds of structures really help develop children emotionally especially since they get to interact with cousins/aunts/uncles/grandparents frequently. I think there's greater emphasis on the nuclear families in the west so in most cases the responsibility of caring for the child falls squarely on the parents - not something everyone can do.

 

On a side note, the whole issue of suing someone else is not as big a concern here as it probably is abroad. That is why for example it is said that we have some of the bravest (from an outsider's perspective) doctors in the world because they will do anything to try and save their patient's lives without much fear of being sued. There are still some that sue of course but it's not very often. Of course this can go both ways but I think it would be terrible if someone I knew (who could have lived) died because his doctor hesitated fearing legal action being done on him.

 

I can't be sure but I think this "I will sue you if I think you did something wrong" attitude is one of the reasons healthcare fees in the states are awfully expensive (they need a buffer for legal fees in case of lawsuits). This might just be speculation on my part.

 

I am so totally in agreement. I am a lawyer and I HATE (*cough* strongly dislike) people who refuse to take responsibility for their actions and always look for someone else to blame when something goes wrong. In 1997 I fell down a hole and broke my back. It was at an open air museum at night and i was drunk (probably the reason I wasn't more seriously hurt). I don't know how many times I was told to sue. Okay the hole wasn't roped off and there were no warning signs but I shouln't have been roving around in the dark pissed. So I feel qualified to say that I think this is totally dangerous. On my son't school bus there is a requirement that every child has a seat and a seatbelt but the helpers can't tell the children to put the belts on or help the little ones do it (some are barely 3 years old) It's a mad world.

 

Yeah as a single gay guy you won't find me babysitting your kids anytime soon. Nor will you find me interacting with anyone under 21 without a damn good reason. And James nailed it - I'll assist from a distance but I won't even think of approaching kids who are alone or are in need.

 

I volunteer at a local gay organization once a week. I haven't had my background checks done yet so the only night I can be there is Wednesday, because that's the only night there are no youth events going on. it's not like I can just go somewhere else in the center when kids are around: nope, I can't be there on a volunteer basis at all on those nights. It's okay if I hang out as a member, but not as a volunteer, because apparently that changes things, somehow.

 

I used to run 12 step meetings at a rehab that had a youth program. I couldn't run those meetings without 2 other adults present, and at no time were kids allowed to be in a room alone with an adult. I'll give you two guesses about how to get what you want from a drug addicted teenager in a rehab, and the first guess doesn't count.

 

It's pretty infuriating to try to help young people when peope are expecting you to rape them or something instead.

 

And I blame the media for this situation. I don't think child sexual or violent abuse is any worse than it was twenty years ago. I think it's just reported more, which raises the hysteria level, which brings up the ratings, so the news media makes money when kids get abused. It's like a witch hunt.

 

So what's happening is this: neurotic helicopter parents are raising neurotic children that need their parents to apply to colleges for them, sit with them in job interviews, move into apartments near their colleges, and defend them against mean college professors that fail them when they don't do the footwork to pass a class.

 

My sister's niece is this way. She's a brilliant chemist who graduated from Purdue two years ago and has a great job at a large chemical company. She's had an incredibly tough time these last two years, acclimating to being an independent adult. She doesn't know how to handle money. She doesn't have a clue about dealing with legal contracts, or about how to cook, or about how to even do basic things like laundry. It's really disappointing. Her parents are STILL propping her up, and won't let her fail at anything.

 

I get that parents don't want their kids to fail, and that parents with the resources to help their kids can certainly ease the way. But people learn by making mistakes and through failure. It's been my experience that the lessons I've learned that have stuck with me have been lessons learned through experience. Having someone shield you from experiencing things is a mistake that's made far too often these days.

 

Now GET OFF MY LAWN

 

 

That is so sad and pretty much what I was getting at.

 

But at least it ended with a smile

[StormyParis]

I think there's degrees to it:

 

- regular stuff, as in stuff you have to do for your job, or that any human being should do:

[Tipdin]

Wow, what a subject. This discussion really points out how messed up we ADULTS are. How can screwed up adults raise children and expect them not to be screwed up as well?

 

I raised my 6 nieces and nephews; there was no stopping ANYONE from kissing and cuddling EVERYONE. Even my eighty-five year old grandfather kissed everyone, EVERYONE on the mouth that came into our house. I used to have to warn my friends...

 

My father used to drag me into the shower with him each morning and wash my hair. When we had extra bodies at our cabin, I shared a bed with my uncle who was fifteen years older than I. There were many times when I was in bed with as many as six children - especially if there was a thunder storm. I'm still hugging my adult children and now their children sit on my lap and cuddle with me. Although I have noticed that everyone is more relaxed at home than out in public.

 

It's very sad that fear and stupidity rule the world now. I'm old enough to remember when ANY adult could and would discipline any child that was misbehaving. And Heaven help you if your parents found out that someone else had to put you back in line! You'd be in double jeopardy, you'd get in trouble for being out of line and then you'd get into more trouble for disturbing the people around you so that they had to put you back in line. It used to be called common courtesy.

 

Like so many issues in life, keeping the balance is a difficult thing to do. But I'm stubborn enough that I would help someone that needed it regardless of the risk.

[Nephylim]

My mother is exactly like that. She has always been very tactile and if we are out and there is a child within 50ft she seems to feel an irresistible urge to make friends with it and it usually ends up sitting on her lap. The younger they are the more they seem to love her. If a child or young adult it out of line she will let them know in no uncertain terms and she kisses anything and anyone under the age of 15 and often everyone over that age too.

 

If someone is hurt or upset it is unthinkable to her not to do something about it. She instantly takes control of any situation involving a child and we have often spent half an hour or so reuiting lost children with their parents, or tending to scraped knees and elbows.

 

It is not unheard of for my mother to take a hurt child home, clean it up and then drive it home.

 

My mother is now 84 and I think that her age is a big thing in making her actions acceptable. She is sexless and so safe. However, I wish I was as brave as she was in always helping those in trouble without thought of anything beyond that action. I think I don't do too bad as a whole although i tend to end up 'saving' adults rather than children and my ex once uncharitbaly commented that sometimes our home resembled a doss house and he was sick of never knowing who he'd find sleeping on the floor when he came home from work. ( he worked nights at the time) That was completey unfair as it was a lot more controlled than that, although I do have a history of opening house to strangers. Strangely... considering the terrible world we live in no one has ever screwed me over and most wash the dishes and tidy up before they leave if I am in work.

 

I guess you get what you look for

[JamesSavik]

I call it the "paranoid generation".

 

It started back in the eighties. People were told to be afraid; be very afraid. Be afraid of drugs. Be afraid of violence. Be afraid of perverts. Be afraid of terrorists. Be afraid, be afraid, be afraid.

 

Now look at us. We've got kids walking around malls that look terrified that someone is going to snatch them on the spot. We've got parents so worked up that they home school their kids rather than expose them to some imagined danger. Sex crimes get more time than murder and we have so many prisons that its bankrupting us.

 

WORST OF ALL, people are buying this steady diet of fear. They are voting for it. They are electing politicians that promise more jails, more cops, more police state and fewer civil liberties.

 

I know why we've done it- we were told to be afraid and we were. That does not excuse it or the people of the country that bills itself land of the free, home of the brave.

 

No. This will not do at all. We shouldn't have to live like this.

 

It is only a matter of time. This will not stand.

 

It all starts with one realization:

 

I AM NOT AFRAID.

 

I DO NOT SURRENDER MY RIGHTS OR REASON.

[Tipdin]

My mother is exactly like that. She has always been very tactile and if we are out and there is a child within 50ft she seems to feel an irresistible urge to make friends with it and it usually ends up sitting on her lap.

 

Tell you mother that I love her!

 

 

I call it the "paranoid generation".

 

It started back in the eighties. People were told to be afraid; be very afraid. Be afraid of drugs. Be afraid of violence. Be afraid of perverts. Be afraid of terrorists. Be afraid, be afraid, be afraid.

 

You have a valid point. Although I think it goes deeper than what you've described.

 

The 'be afraid' message has actually been out there for quite a while, much earlier than the eighties. But people never used to buy into it. Have people changed? Was the older generation tougher?

 

Why didn't people buy into that crap a long time ago?

[Hoskins]

Well, I've said it before and I'll say it lots more times: The media created this situation. Specifically, news broadcasts. In the early eighties, news programming became a profit center for local stations, and scaring people became a really easy way to boost the ratings and therefore ad rates. It's become all about the bumper - get the viewer to stick around through the commercials, and you validate your rates to the ad buyers - "A strange van has been spotted in a local neighborhood - tune in after the break to find out if your family is in danger!!" zomg

 

And, furthering this, no local news station does "reporting" anymore, and no news station has our best interests at heart. How many of those "most trusted news sources" are actually reporters? I can't name more than three in the entire Detroit broadcast market that are actual journalists who've risen through the industry. The rest are all hacks who either look good or can bring an audience with them to a news station.

 

I'm very much for free markets and an independent press, and personally I think those two goals work against each other more often than not. This is a classic case of the market dictating a public service, and the absolute corruption of that public service as a result.

 

 

James is right - it starts by taking a stand against the whole thing.