methodwriter85 Posted September 25, 2011 Posted September 25, 2011 Mark's been open about his issues with figuring out how to write Poor Man's Son, and has taken a break to focus on his real life and also what he wants to do with the direction of the story. Paya made two interesting points that made me think about the hard roadblock that Mark's hit. Choosing the right narrator is always problematic. I think one needs to know what kind of story they want to write, what is the message they want to relate. And pick the narrator fitting that, not vice-versa. I haven't read Graeme's story Linxe was linking here but I could imagine a straight narrator in CAP if he was giving a fresh look at the torment of some of their gay sibling or close friend or whatever - but it would work only as when we had Wade narrating instead of Matt. Because even if straight sex scenes might be fun to write and refreshing to see here, it's not the primary reason I'm at GA reading the stories. And I think the narrators should be at least adult or nearing that age, 13-14 is too low IMHO. Why wasn't Wade considered as a narrator? He'd certainly have things to say? If I remember, 2000 was GWB x Al Gore election, he'd certainly be following it? More like the whole family would? That would also start some tension. And Will as a 13 yo is certainly not interested in politics, well maybe 13 yo Wade would be but certainly not Will... There's the problem with the lack of narrators apparently. Normally Mark would just skip in time but since we're catching up with modern times it's harder to do. There also has to be something to talk about, to express with the story. I think these are two pretty good points, and highlight the problem of transitioning. Mark is at the point where he's trying to transition the story from Brad's generation off to Will's generation.The problem is that right now, Will is 13/14 years old. The bulk of that generation is 13 to 14 years old now. While Will does seem like a cool kid for the most part and I enjoy him, he still feels too young to fully narrate a story because when you are 13, you just can't see beyond your own front door. Even when you're a cool 14-year old, it's still a really awkward age, and I'm not sure how much appeal there is in reading about the sexual misadventures of a 14-year old. The obvious solution would be doing a time jump to when the kids are older, but Mark seems really reluctant to do time jumps- notice how for the last couple of stories, the time jumps have never been more than maybe 5-7 months- we're not even getting full years anymore. The last significant time jump we had was between If It Fits(1995) and Bloodlines(1998). And I can't blame Mark for not wanting to skip over 2001, which is going to be a huge year. But to be honest, I do think not having the big time jumps does hurt the story- not just because the potentional narrators are staying little kids longer, but because cramming in all these events with the family in such a short, dense amount of time takes away an organic feel to the flow of the story. The short time jumps doesn't give time for things to develop effectively off-screen. For example, we knew from Be Rad(1980) that Sam and JP were finished. By 1985, Sam had started a family in St. Louis and had two toddlers. The four-year time lag between Be Rad, which ended in June 1981, and Man Motion, which starts in January 1985; made those developments pretty believable. But if we're checking in on the family every couple of months, it's harder to believe that big developments like that could have happened without us knowing about it. One of the best things about each time jump was Mark explaining why things had changed, what had caused them to change, and what the new family dynamics were now. When we're only seeing things jump a few months ahead, we're losing that aspect of the story. Anyway, the solution to the narrator problem was at first having Matt Carrswold and Wade Danfield- they seemed like the placeholders until Will was old enough to handle his own story. Then there was having Brad go off on a mid-life crisis, which worked. But...I don't know...Poor Man's Son has been an introductionary story, and with any transition there's going to be issues. I enjoy Gathan, but I get why people have problems with him. Like I enjoy Will, but I get why people have problems with him. And Paya's right- there's a relative dearth of narrators, especially legacy characters, for Mark to chose from, unless he decides to jump the story from 2000 to 2003-2004. There is no way that JJ or John Hobart could handle a turn at narration, at least not while they're still pre-driving age. Darius being straight pretty much seems to preclude him from ever getting a shot at narrating. Kevin(Sergio) could possibly work, but I don't get the feeling Kevin is the type of character that could lead a story. I don't think the problems with Poor Man's Son are insourmountable, but it has been interesting to see what happens when you're hitting a transition period in your writing. I have full faith that Mark will work out these problems, though, and continue with some great soap.
Mark Arbour Posted September 25, 2011 Posted September 25, 2011 The problems aren't insurmountable, but I had to figure them out. My problem with where I'm at now really has nothing to do with whether Will and Gathan can be interesting, my problem is the sequencing of events. There are some events that I'd rather narrate through other eyes (Wade's, to be specific. Paya, you channeled my mind yet again!) while there are others that I want Will and Gathan to tackle. The problem is that they aren't sequential, in that some of the issues Wade would have to deal with would come BEFORE the issues that Will and Gathan are facing come up. That means that I can't just end PMS and start a new story, unless I include Will and Gathan in the new story as well. So I'm trying to figure that out, and I first did it by just musing about it, but I'm kind of at the point now where I'm banging a few things out to see what they look like. I'm taking my time to try to make sure we don't publish anymore "crap."
Canuk Posted September 25, 2011 Posted September 25, 2011 .................................. I'm taking my time to try to make sure we don't publish anymore "crap." good god yes!! as if we could cope with any more of your "crap". Mark , dear dear Mark , I am not sure what "crap" you think you have written, but this little black duck ain't seen no "crap" written by your pen to date, OK? so While I fully understand your need to get your characters in hand (so to speak) Please, no more of this "crap" writing stuff'n'nonsense.... 1
paya Posted September 25, 2011 Posted September 25, 2011 The problems aren't insurmountable, but I had to figure them out. My problem with where I'm at now really has nothing to do with whether Will and Gathan can be interesting, my problem is the sequencing of events. There are some events that I'd rather narrate through other eyes (Wade's, to be specific. Paya, you channeled my mind yet again!) while there are others that I want Will and Gathan to tackle. The problem is that they aren't sequential, in that some of the issues Wade would have to deal with would come BEFORE the issues that Will and Gathan are facing come up. That means that I can't just end PMS and start a new story, unless I include Will and Gathan in the new story as well. So I'm trying to figure that out, and I first did it by just musing about it, but I'm kind of at the point now where I'm banging a few things out to see what they look like. I'm taking my time to try to make sure we don't publish anymore "crap." Well then we know the story is in good hands and you'll figure it out. Though if you needed any external voice I'm blunt enough to say it. Just... why can't you include Wade as a narrator into that one? Truth to be told, he's a RICH man's son but if you have two so different characters like Gathan and Will, it would certainly not hurt the story (more)? I bet you'd find a way how to do it non-violently. 1
Dannsar Posted September 25, 2011 Posted September 25, 2011 Never having read any of these stories I don't want to speak out of turn. However, it strikes me that if there is going to be a narrator change, and there is a plot impediment to the potential candidates, then the solution may just be to take a short pause from character narrators and change to an omniscient authorial narrator meantime. As I say, I haven't read the stories, so this solution might not work for this example, but please don't hit me! 1
Mark Arbour Posted September 25, 2011 Posted September 25, 2011 good god yes!! as if we could cope with any more of your "crap". Mark , dear dear Mark , I am not sure what "crap" you think you have written, but this little black duck ain't seen no "crap" written by your pen to date, OK? so While I fully understand your need to get your characters in hand (so to speak) Please, no more of this "crap" writing stuff'n'nonsense.... Thanks. I was referring to Conner's less-than-tactful feedback. Well then we know the story is in good hands and you'll figure it out. Though if you needed any external voice I'm blunt enough to say it. Just... why can't you include Wade as a narrator into that one? Truth to be told, he's a RICH man's son but if you have two so different characters like Gathan and Will, it would certainly not hurt the story (more)? I bet you'd find a way how to do it non-violently. I've pondered that, only that makes 3 narrators in a story. That may be a bit much. Never having read any of these stories I don't want to speak out of turn. However, it strikes me that if there is going to be a narrator change, and there is a plot impediment to the potential candidates, then the solution may just be to take a short pause from character narrators and change to an omniscient authorial narrator meantime. As I say, I haven't read the stories, so this solution might not work for this example, but please don't hit me! That's a great idea, but the only problem is that I've done this story in the first person to make it a little more personal. I'm not sure how it would handle a switch to third person, especially at this point. Food for thought.
PrivateTim Posted September 25, 2011 Posted September 25, 2011 (edited) I have no problem with a young narrator, some of my favorite gay fiction has young narrators. I think Mark can end PMS in relatively few more chapters. Get Will started at HW, Gathan started at Stanfurd and we can be out of PMS by December 2000. Since neither Will nor Gathan has shown any interest in politics up to this point, you can't suddenly go through the 2000 election drama. PMS has been about characters, Will and Gathan, and their journey. If Mark needs Wade (or Matt) as a narrator for the 2000 election and 9-11, I see nothing wrong with a Wade 'n Matt story starting before PMS ends. In other words, there is no rule that says a Wade 'n Matt story couldn't start in May 2000, July 2000 or Sept. 2000, before PMS ends. With Gathan at Stanfurd, he might figure into the story as school gets going and we can view him and his relationship with Kristin through their eyes. We haven't seen much of Matt in PMS, but that doesn't mean he hasn't been around. I mean he is Robbie's son, Robbie's only 'real' son if I remember the convoluted family tree correctly. Just because there wasn't time or space in PMS, or Will didn't mention him doesn't mean his life wasn't going on. A small overlap of a Wade 'n Matt story might be amusing to see what Wade 'n Matt think about Will's angst. Edited September 26, 2011 by PrivateTim 2
sat8997 Posted September 26, 2011 Posted September 26, 2011 Thanks. I was referring to Conner's less-than-tactful feedback. While we both know Conner can, at times, be tactless, his story analysis is usually spot on. Might want to keep that in mind amongst all that banging. 1
Mark Arbour Posted September 26, 2011 Posted September 26, 2011 While we both know Conner can, at times, be tactless, his story analysis is usually spot on. Might want to keep that in mind amongst all that banging. "All that banging"? Well, there was that post, and then there was... I'll keep looking for all the other banging I've done.
sat8997 Posted September 26, 2011 Posted September 26, 2011 So I'm trying to figure that out, and I first did it by just musing about it, but I'm kind of at the point now where I'm banging a few things out to see what they look like.
Mark Arbour Posted September 26, 2011 Posted September 26, 2011 Oh. That banging. I thought you meant I was dissing the guy.
methodwriter85 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Posted September 26, 2011 (edited) I have no problem with a young narrator, some of my favorite gay fiction has young narrators. I think the initial problem I had with Will was that he didn't feel like a real person- he felt more like some hot piece of ass character that we were supposed to lust over. And I'm sorry, even though he looks like a 17-year old green-eyed Sean Faris, I'm just not going to get into the sexual adventures of a 13-year old. Recently, however, I think the character's become better fleshed out. I still don't think he can fully narrate a story yet, unless Mark jumps the story to 2003, but I think we're at least two stories away from '03. Edited September 26, 2011 by methodwriter85
sat8997 Posted September 26, 2011 Posted September 26, 2011 Oh. That banging. I thought you meant I was dissing the guy. Poodle I know you better than that. If you were going to diss him, you wouldn't be subtle. 2
paya Posted September 26, 2011 Posted September 26, 2011 Poodle I know you better than that. If you were going to diss him, you wouldn't be subtle. Poodle! Now that's something to remember! 2
centexhairysub Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 I actually think that Matt and Wade would work really well as co-narrators on the next story or two. Matt and Wade are a bridge between Brad/Robbie/Claire/Ace's generation and Darius/Gathan/Will/JJ's generation. In many ways the events of 2000 and 2001 were bridge events between the world that we had and the ones created by the events of those years, why not use narrators that reflect that in the family as well. Matt is Robbie's only biological son, so far... and Wade has been refered to as almost JP's incarnation for the younger generations. They would tie both sides of the divide together really well, at least in my opinion. They are both close to Darius/Will/JJ and with Gathan going to Stanford that will bring them into play with that group as well. I have actually grown fond of the dual narration and find it an interesting way to see more than one point of view for certain events. Matt and Wade's backgrounds, differences, and even their love for each other would bring interesting views on the events of the early 2000's. It might be interesting to see how two people that are tied together in so many ways could view the events while being colored by their own perceptions and history.
methodwriter85 Posted September 29, 2011 Author Posted September 29, 2011 In terms of point-of-view, Private Tim brought up an interesting point about Will: Will is very different from his father on many levels, the first being that he is first generation wealthy. He has never known the kind of deprivation Brad or Robbie did. He grew up flying on private airplanes, yachts, living on the beach in a virtual mansion in one of CA's most exclusive neighborhoods, going to movie premieres, eating at top restaurants, having what ever clothes, video games, technology (computers, cell phones, etc), surfboard, bicycles, etc. he wanted and he takes it all in stride or maybe for granted. It is the only lifestyle he knows. It doesn't mean Will is bad because of it, it just is what it is. Everyone is a product of their upbringing, rich, poor, etc. and it shapes how you view the world, especially when you are younger. And not be snotty or anything, but until you have seen 15 year olds dining at Nobu on their own, you might not get it. (for those who don't know Nobu, it runs about $60-80 per person on the low side, up to $150 per person for the omakase and you are likely to run into Pierce Brosnan, Danny DeVito, Rob Reiner, Steven Dorf and so on any given night of the week). So that life of Will's sets his vision and perceptions very different from his father's. Will may not have thought of it in these terms, but essentially, he has no worries in life from a comfort and future stand point. He can graduate college (USC or UCSD) in marine biology and head off with his surfboard to Fiji, Rarotanga, Tahiti, Costa Rica or Oz (or the Farrallon Isnads to study great whites) to work as a marine biologist and not worry about what the job pays. By having the Cramptons/Schluters at the kind of income level he's had them reach since the 1960's, Mark's essentially created a generation of characters- Darius, Will, JJ, Marie, John- who've been sheltered in a total bubble and have never known any kind of deprivation or discomfort. When you had JP and Steven growing up in Claremont during the 1930's-1950's, they had to interact with kids who weren't like them, and they weren't in the kind of rich privileged bubble that the current generation of kids have grown up in. They all had happy childhoods, and in Will's case, they grew up in an environment and time where it was okay to be homosexual. And as PrivateTim said, even the economic troubles of now are not likely going to touch the CAP characters, so they'll continue in that happy bubble. How do you keep narrators who can get what they want with a phone call or charge card interesting and relatable? There's only so many times that reading about fancy trips, fancy cars, and fancy clothing can be interesting, and at 11 stories and counting, CAP really needs to change it up to keep things from feeling repetitive. Having Gathan in the story seemed like a solution to the lack of narratives from diverse backgrounds, but...for whatever reason, it didn't quite work. It's why I'm hoping that 9/11 and the Iraq War is really going to shake these characters up, because frankly, reading about people who get whatever they want in life and never hear the word "no" will be a big zzzzz.
methodwriter85 Posted May 9, 2012 Author Posted May 9, 2012 Back to this thread... Anyone have ideas about why Gathan didn't work as narrator, seven months down the road? I'm genuinely curious. I liked Gathan a lot and I liked the idea of having someone from a different kind of background narrating, but something didn't quite click. Was it just that Mark decided to put all the attention into Will, or the fact that people weren't that interested in seeing a protagonist having a relationship with a woman, or something else? Ideas?
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