Paternity

[Westie]

It's not even a rich people thing. This is a generation of American kids who were brought up constantly being told they were special combined with indulgent parenting, and the end result levels of narcissism are pretty astounding. I've heard so many horror stories about how Baby Boomers and Gen Xers are trying to deal the entry of Gen Y into the workplace- not going so pretty.

 

*Waits for Westie to scream at me for about how the Schluters and Cramptons are so avant-garde that generational values don't apply to them at all, even though the CAP saga was actually built on reflecting the mindset of the given period*

 

In this, very specific circumstance, i happen to agree with you Jeremy. I know, I know, Its not comfortable for me either, BUT - hear me out.

 

These guys have narcissism ingrained in their souls. The over indulgent parenting that you talk about the over gen Y, the problem we see here is that this family were so ahead of the curve, that Brad and Billy and Ace all had this same over indulgence in the 1980's. And now, when they have their own children, that over indulgence is concentrated and intensified. These kids have every possible material possession. Their parents are all successful - VERY successful. From a very young age they were brought up to believe themselves as something special. But then again - so was everybody else. So Will and Darius and JJ have an even bigger problem. They KNOW they are part of a whole generation of "special" - but they are a cut above even everyone else.

 

There is a reason I think that some of the more successful characters in this story, spent much of their lives outside of the "family". JP was an outsider even in his own family. Stefan started life as a hustler in Paris. Matt was adopted. Wade is not a crampton. Brad was brought up inside the family, but he has always thought more of stefan than he did of JP - probably because of the full knowledge that while always accepted, he didnt "belong" with Ace, Billy and Claire. That said, Brad is pretty self absorbed. Billy was a full member of the family - he screwed up. Jim Crampton's middle name is "entitlement". Nick & Bitty Schluter anyone? You see where I'm going with this?

 

So what I'm saying is, we see exactly the paradigm you expect in Gen Y, but amplified. We are starting to see the cracks in this very special family. My prediction: there are some people here who will end up very damaged.

 

You say though "even though CAP was actually built on reflecting the mindset of the given period" - Mark can do that, yes, but it wont fit with this family he has created. Reflecting an average mindset would involve reflecting the average. And he doesn't. And in fact few real people do. Jeremy you are trying to fit everything into its correct little box, and if that's how you make sense of the world, then fine - but its going to leave an awful lot of unanswered questions.

[methodwriter85]

You say though "even though CAP was actually built on reflecting the mindset of the given period" - Mark can do that, yes, but it wont fit with this family he has created. Reflecting an average mindset would involve reflecting the average. And he doesn't. And in fact few real people do. Jeremy you are trying to fit everything into its correct little box, and if that's how you make sense of the world, then fine - but its going to leave an awful lot of unanswered questions.

 

Maybe I'm guilty of doing that, but believe me- I'm able to see nuance and things going beyond black and right. I'm just pointing out that there are some specific rhythms that go into the time period in which a person develops, and that even when you have an exceptional family, your peers who grew up at the same time you did are still going to shape you in some way. For example, Brad may have grown up in a family where being gay was acceptable. At the same time, however, Brad grew up in a generation that was still pretty homophobic and did not have that many examples of gay men who were able to do the kinds of things that the Cramptons were. Therefore, Brad was closeted through most of high school. If Brad would have been completely free of the mindset of the time, why would he have been so reluctant to come out? The other interesting thing was when Brad was observing Matt and Gathan in The Box, and how they weren't so quick to peg themselves as gay the way Brad's generation had done- there was only "gay" or "straight" for Brad's generation, which was again reinforced later on when Brad ponders the sexuality of his children and "bisexual" never seemed to come up as a legitimate possibility.

 

My point is that while you may be right that this is an unconventional family and certain "rules" may not fit on them, I still believe that a person's generation influences them on both macro and microscopic levels, and that's something Mark has done continually with the CAP saga. He tries not to just recreate the time period itself though the use of fashion, clothes, and music, but the mindsets of the time. It's been a part of CAP from the very beginning, and it's what has really elevated CAP from just a typical soap. The orginal CAP represented the dual side of early 1960's America- Cheerful and optmistic, but oppressive as well. 1968 represented the divisiveness of the time- Jeff and JP falling apart; and Jeff's descent into the madness of drug use as a representative of the darker side of the anti-war movement, which saw a large amount of drug abuse in the belief that it would cause a person's mind to tune in and turn on the world around them. The Land Whore represented the beginning of a hedonistic 70's gay culture that saw more men coming out of the closet as the homosexuality was no longer defined as a mental illness. This brief time of total sexual freedom would then be silenced at the end of Be Rad, with the arrival of AIDS. Also in Be Rad, you had Claire as the representative of the materialistic 1980's, fitting the stereotypical preppie in her devotion to all things preppy and chic. Though she was given depth after going through the trauma of having an abortion and being given depth, Claire was used to represent a typical 1980's archtype where having money and flaunting it at every moment was considered not just cool, but divinely, given the widespread belief that the spending of money by the rich would "trickle down" to the poor. The loss of the innocence in total sexual freedom was reflected in Man In Motion with the AIDS crisis, and here you would see Robbie and Brad deciding to choose monogamy over promiscuity, a move that would probably save their lives. In Bloodlines, you saw the newly emerging mindset of people Wade and Matt's age- people who were not so quick to slap a label on what they were. Now here in Paternity, we're seeing Will represent an emerging generation of young guys who are coming out at earlier and earlier ages, and who were never "in" the closet because they never had a reason to be.

 

I get that this is an unconventional family and that some rules can't fit, but to say that they should be completely outside of the thinking of the time would be ignoring the way in which time, peer interactions, and history have shaped the series, which has been apparent in every single story. It would be suggesting these characters live in a bubble where only their rules apply, and that hasn't been the case. If it had been, would Andre have died? Would Brad had stayed in the closet for most of high school? Would JP and Stefan have lost past friends and lovers to AIDS? Etc, etc etc.

 

So what I'm saying is, we see exactly the paradigm you expect in Gen Y, but amplified. We are starting to see the cracks in this very special family. My prediction: there are some people here who will end up very damaged.

 

Agreed. Probably not to Nick and Bitty levels, but yeah. Brad, Robbie, and Jeanine did not seem to set up boundaries for Darius, JJ, and Will, and we're already seeing the results of that. They're not bad kids, but they also can't deal very well with hearing the word "no" because their parents never said that to them.

 

This is what I find interesting with Wade and Tiffany. They seem more inclined to take a different kind of parenting style, to try and keep the kid as grounded as possible, which will probably be better in the long run for Riley.

Edited December 16, 2011 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

It's not all about children being undisciplined monsters who demand and get everything they want. The 50's style of parenting, where you do what you're told or you get the shit beaten out of you, is a wonderful way to create zombie suburban clones. Ask a parent who has a very intelligent and high-spirited child about that. Do you really want to crush them into conformity? Or would you rather them express their views, even if it's unpleasant at times?

 

I'm not saying that there is a right or a wrong parenting style, but it's awful easy to decide how a child should be raised and handled when that child isn't yours. Brad gets Will better than Will even dreams he does. He sees this rebellious teen, going through normal cycles, and does his best to tamp him down without destroying him. Look at how Will handled the criticism he got on his birthday. There's a pretty fragile ego there, which isn't unusual for a guy that age. They want him to think creatively, they want to give him free-reign to voice his thoughts and feelings, and sometimes that gets a little uncomfortable. I'm betting that Brad, Robbie, Stef, and especially JP view the obnoxiousness as a small price to pay for the ultimate man who ends up with an internal locus of control and stronger sense of himself.

 

And if they went too far in giving him shit on his birthday, and he strikes back, is it fair to beat him down over that? Do you revert to a hierarchical model and declare that you as a parent must be obeyed, or you will smite the child? How is that fair? What message does that send?

[rjo]

Once upon a time, JJ was a happy little kid and Will and Brad were surfing buds. Growing older is something none of us can stop. Growing older as a teenager is worse. But as Mark said if you do it right you get something worth all the pain, a really outstanding young person who is not only a joy to be with but someone you can be proud of for years to come. I think Will will be person like that.

Edited December 16, 2011 by rjo

[methodwriter85]

Darius seemed like a relatively easy child and teenager to raise, but as Brad and Robbie seemed to realize, they were lucky on that front.

 

When you've got a diva personality on one side and a guy who is just as pushy and aggressive as his father is, it's just not going to be easy.

 

They'll be fine, but we'll have to wait until they're in their 20's before we stop wanting to throw things at them. LOL.

[centexhairysub]

Well, just finished the latest chapter of Paternity and I hated it... The writing was great as always but I am going to just be so fracking upset if Wade and Matt breat up. In the last chapter, which was dated 09/19/00, Tiffany stated that she was going to go ahead and move up north but two days later Wade still doesn't know about it? I was wondering what evildoing Elizabeth was up to, glad that Wade was on the ball enough to catch it, although I think JP was right part of it was just a test. Does Matt not know that Wade slept with Gathan? I can't wait for Gathan to tell him all about it...

[Mark Arbour]

Well, just finished the latest chapter of Paternity and I hated it... The writing was great as always but I am going to just be so fracking upset if Wade and Matt breat up. In the last chapter, which was dated 09/19/00, Tiffany stated that she was going to go ahead and move up north but two days later Wade still doesn't know about it? I was wondering what evildoing Elizabeth was up to, glad that Wade was on the ball enough to catch it, although I think JP was right part of it was just a test. Does Matt not know that Wade slept with Gathan? I can't wait for Gathan to tell him all about it...

 

Just think of it as a big S&M experience. All relationships have their problems, and their ups and downs.

[B1ue]

Wade making dramatic statements like "This moment, this is where were we all became DOOOMED" probably didn't help much, though I can't imagine anything that would when their fundamental positions are so different. Besides channelling Scarlett O'Hara, I can't help but feel Matt telling ZWade he's bad at sex was a tactical error, even if it was at one point true. ESPECIALLY if it was at one point true, and that point was a particulary painful and tumultuous point in Wade's life.

 

If Matt isn't willing to meet Wade halfway, even to the point of acknowledging that this entire situation isnt just all in Wade's head, then maybe a break is in order. Wade doesn't get off scott free either, there's a reason he didn't mention that he'd slept with Gathan, and he damn well knows he's at least as dangerous to his and Matt's long term relationship as Carl.

[Westie]

I'm just stopping by to say that i thought the last chapter was superbly written. In places it was very reminiscent of Robbie/Brad in millennium, though perhaps with some slight role reversal. It shows how similar Matt and Brad are here.

 

I'd love to comment more, but from today I'm In the Czech Republic and just don't have time with Christmas etc. However, I will still read more chapters if Mark publishes them and I hope to comment more later next week.

 

West

[Daddydavek]

Wade is not getting the support he wants from Matt, so Gathan does become a bigger threat.

 

With the strong foundation that their relationship was built on, I would have thought that if they broke up it would be over little things as they drifted apart. But all is not lost and hopefully this is just a rough patch as Wade and Matt mature at different rates and develop their relationship; which could end up even stronger.

[Mark Arbour]

Wade making dramatic statements like "This moment, this is where were we all became DOOOMED" probably didn't help much, though I can't imagine anything that would when their fundamental positions are so different. Besides channelling Scarlett O'Hara, I can't help but feel Matt telling ZWade he's bad at sex was a tactical error, even if it was at one point true. ESPECIALLY if it was at one point true, and that point was a particulary painful and tumultuous point in Wade's life.

 

If Matt isn't willing to meet Wade halfway, even to the point of acknowledging that this entire situation isnt just all in Wade's head, then maybe a break is in order. Wade doesn't get off scott free either, there's a reason he didn't mention that he'd slept with Gathan, and he damn well knows he's at least as dangerous to his and Matt's long term relationship as Carl.

 

They were just both so bitchy, weren't they? I love the vision of Wade channeling Scarlett O'Hara. "Frankly Matt, I don't give a damn."

 

I'm just stopping by to say that i thought the last chapter was superbly written. In places it was very reminiscent of Robbie/Brad in millennium, though perhaps with some slight role reversal. It shows how similar Matt and Brad are here.

 

I'd love to comment more, but from today I'm In the Czech Republic and just don't have time with Christmas etc. However, I will still read more chapters if Mark publishes them and I hope to comment more later next week.

 

West

 

GIve Paya a big, uh, kiss from me! (I've proclaimed this the party icon, not the wizard icon. That's definitely a birthday hat).

 

Wade is not getting the support he wants from Matt, so Gathan does become a bigger threat.

 

With the strong foundation that their relationship was built on, I would have thought that if they broke up it would be over little things as they drifted apart. But all is not lost and hopefully this is just a rough patch as Wade and Matt mature at different rates and develop their relationship; which could end up even stronger.

 

I agree with you.

[B1ue]

I don't think I've been quite this annoyed with a character in some time. Thank you for the chapter Mark!

 

Despite my earlier comments, I kind of like Wade and Matt together. So I hope Wade takes JP's words into consideration, but I'm not sure he's going to be able to. I know I woldn't, but I've a much greater tendency to explode, so I don't know in Wade's case. And, frankly, Matt doens't really deserve Wade to take a step back and reflect that there might be other things going on. Matt handed explosives to a potential enemy; you just don't do that in Wade's world.

 

Should be interesting to watch.

[Mark Arbour]

I don't think I've been quite this annoyed with a character in some time. Thank you for the chapter Mark!

 

Despite my earlier comments, I kind of like Wade and Matt together. So I hope Wade takes JP's words into consideration, but I'm not sure he's going to be able to. I know I woldn't, but I've a much greater tendency to explode, so I don't know in Wade's case. And, frankly, Matt doens't really deserve Wade to take a step back and reflect that there might be other things going on. Matt handed explosives to a potential enemy; you just don't do that in Wade's world.

 

Should be interesting to watch.

 

You like it when something annoys you? A little masochistic are we? That's kind of hot.

 

I think that Wade will have to search deep to find it within himself to forgive Matt for this one. Even if he does, the level of trust will take a long time to be restored, if it even can be.

[Westie]

that chapter left me... well... devastated

 

I have nothing further to add right now

[PrivateTim]

Why do I suspect that Matt won't be smart enough to back off Carl to show Wade the sincerity of his contriteness?

 

The danger for Matt is that THIS, not the moment in Muir Woods, is the one that will finish Matt & Wade. Wade, in the world he comes from, can deal with infidelity, you could not live in WDC if you couldn't, but a betrayal of loyalty (trust) is a different matter. That is a death sentence in the WDC world and gets you an office on the 4th floor of the Russell Senate Bldg next to the janitors closet.

 

I haven't liked Matt the past couple of stories, he has gotten rather full of himself and I have to work to remember the kid I liked so well back when he discovered about his parentage and all the drama he went through. I have to keep that Matt in mind and remember I had my moments as an arrogant shithead in college too and hope that he figures it out before he throws away a great relationship. I do remember how hard it is to see the big picture when you are 20.

 

I did love the buying the TV for Gathan and Flip (sp??). Sometimes being rich enough to spite people is just good fun. I had also completely forgotten about him getting a BJ from Brad. That was hot

[Mark Arbour]

that chapter left me... well... devastated

 

I have nothing further to add right now

 

Now Westie, don't be so glum. I promise I'll give you a happy ending, even though happiness can take different forms.

 

Why do I suspect that Matt won't be smart enough to back off Carl to show Wade the sincerity of his contriteness?

 

The danger for Matt is that THIS, not the moment in Muir Woods, is the one that will finish Matt & Wade. Wade, in the world he comes from, can deal with infidelity, you could not live in WDC if you couldn't, but a betrayal of loyalty (trust) is a different matter. That is a death sentence in the WDC world and gets you an office on the 4th floor of the Russell Senate Bldg next to the janitors closet.

 

I haven't liked Matt the past couple of stories, he has gotten rather full of himself and I have to work to remember the kid I liked so well back when he discovered about his parentage and all the drama he went through. I have to keep that Matt in mind and remember I had my moments as an arrogant shithead in college too and hope that he figures it out before he throws away a great relationship. I do remember how hard it is to see the big picture when you are 20.

 

I did love the buying the TV for Gathan and Flip (sp??). Sometimes being rich enough to spite people is just good fun. I had also completely forgotten about him getting a BJ from Brad. That was hot

 

I'm so glad that you remember that college-aged arrogance. Without that as a reference point, it can make understanding Matt a little difficult. At this point in time, Matt has the world by the balls. He's got looks, money, and brains. He's on the fast-track to success in life. He's got an amazing boyfriend who is cool with him fucking around on the side, and seems to understand his slutty nature. He's the captain of the hockey team, which gives him status as a leader. It's easy for all that to go to his head.

 

I think it's inevitable that a bright guy like that will ultimately wake up and get a clue. He's bound to have at least one epiphany. The question you raise is really the biggest one of all: after he does, will Wade be able to forgive him for being untrustworthy? As you noted, Wade's background would suggest that once you cross that line, you're done, but then again, Wade doesn't always follow the WDC handbook.

 

And as far as the TV goes, revenge can be overrated, but not always.

[Daddydavek]

The latest chapter posted this morning shows the dynamic of Wade adjusting to Matt's inability to walk away from Carl and then he learns that Matt has violated his trust by telling Carl about Wade's history. In most relationships that would be a 'deal-breaker'.

 

The 'rough patch' has a larger dimension and Matt has clearly told Wade where he stands. This is more than a bump in their relationship. Seeing how or if they come through this together will be interesting.

[Mark Arbour]

The latest chapter posted this morning shows the dynamic of Wade adjusting to Matt's inability to walk away from Carl and then he learns that Matt has violated his trust by telling Carl about Wade's history. In most relationships that would be a 'deal-breaker'.

 

The 'rough patch' has a larger dimension and Matt has clearly told Wade where he stands. This is more than a bump in their relationship. Seeing how or if they come through this together will be interesting.

 

Interesting? Then I've achieved my goal!

 

You're right, but I think in situations like this, the real barometer is the strength of the relationship. If you read through Bloodlines again and remember all the shit these two young guys went through together, you'll realize just how strong that relationship is.

[Westie]

Now Westie, don't be so glum. I promise I'll give you a happy ending, even though happiness can take different forms.

 

 

Ways in which this could end that i would consider "happy":

 

(1) Matt and Wade stay together, become stronger and sexier, and live happily ever after

(2) Matt realizes what a fool he is, and, unable to bear the shame, moves to Europe the become house-boy to an Englishman and his hot Czech boyfriend.

(3) Matt and brad get stoned and finally give in to their urges

(4) A 3 day full team orgy finally wears out Matt's sexual appitite and he becomes ready to commit to one man

(5) you reintroduce cam healy as Matt's new boytoy (those first two scenes in bloodlines were SO. FREAKIN. HOT.)

(6) Wade slaughters Carl on the ice (literally, with razor sharp hockey sticks - I originally had this end in mind for JJ but im not precious about this)

(7) Everything gets screwed up, but you kill off JP (even the worst possible endings are made happier without JP)

 

and thats all I can think of. Of course if you could arrange number 2 as a matter of urgency, that would be the best solution all round I think.

 

**fully expects flames for advocating the termination of JP Crampton**

[rjo]

I'm not sure why people want to kill JP off. I've always liked JP. He is the reason there is a CAP saga to begin with. First of all, an awesome chapter. Sad powerful chapter! Great job Mark! After rereading chapter 6 for the 3rd time and reading part of Bloodlines again you guys are right. Matt has changed from the nice guy we remember. At that time his world had been rocked and he was close to death. Wade was there every awaking moment. To Wade, Matt had saved him from his father and loved him. Both of them I believe didn't think they could love or could be love. At the end of Bloodlines there were no doubts. Happily ever after? Not in the CAP world. I was more upset with Brad's and Robbie's breakup. This seems to be different. For the first time, Wade is wondering if Matt is "Mr Right". Maybe they are just growing apart. This betrayal is only another sign of that has happened. You could say it was Wade becoming a Dad. But this situation was building before that. What will happen? To paraphrase, Mark only knows. And maybe he hasn't decided yet. Thanks for a great story with lots of Drama!

Edited December 23, 2011 by rjo

[methodwriter85]

There's an invective that Adam Phillips wrote about why JP should have died of AIDS in the 1980's for his callous treatment of Jeff in 1968. It was interesting, to say the least. I don't think JP needs to die, but I do feel like his character has run its course, at least as a lead character. The Box felt like a nice wrap-up for JP and Stefan as the leading characters. Now they work as the gentle patriach characters who give advice out to the younger ones.

 

As for Matt, I see where he's coming from. He's a junior. These are the best years of his life, and things are lined up for him to have a great two years. Matt realizes, on some level, that life will never be as fun and open again as he found it to be in college. Matt thought that he and Wade might have pitched in some money for Tiffany, as well as some babysitting duties, but he did not expect that Wade was going to try to turn them into active parents living together. Matt wants to spend the rest of college having fun and big parties, not spend it changing diapers and chasing after a growing toddler. I can see why he wants to hang out more with his college friends, because Wade's priorities have changed and he can't really relate to it.

 

I don't think Matt's become an asshole, but he has basically reverted back to the self-absorbed Golden Boy he was for most of high school, before he got sick and his friends abandoned him. I don't feel like the way Matt is acting came out of nowhere- he was a guy who was Mr. Golden Boy for most of high school, and then saw it all get wrecked when he got sick. Now he's Golden Boy again, where he's the King of his inner circle, and it went to his head again just like it did in high school. Only this time around, he doesn't have to pretend he's straight or have parents to answer to, so Matt's "wave" is even better this time around. He can't say no to it and become Mr. Supportive Dad to Wade and his kid, at least not yet.

Edited December 23, 2011 by methodwriter85

[rjo]

I must say I agree with you. Matt is not a bad person. He and Wade are not on the same page. It is too bad. Hopefully, Matt will see what is happening before it is too late.

[mmike1969]

I don't know about everyone else but if my boyfriend of a couple of years just told me he did not trust me, it would be over.

 

And yes I think Matt IS an a$$hole.

Edited December 24, 2011 by mmike1969

[Mark Arbour]

I don't know about everyone else but if my boyfriend of a couple of years just told me he did not trust me, it would be over.

 

And yes I think Matt IS an a$$hole.

 

I think Jeremy stated it really well. I don't think Matt is an asshole, I think he and Wade are going through very different times in their lives, and that's pulling on them.

 

As for trust, well, that's a big issue, but there are varying degrees of trust. I think Wade's trust in Matt before this was almost absolute, and now it's not. I'm not sure that absolute trust is an attainable goal in all relationships anyway, but hell, I'm probably wrong on that.

[methodwriter85]

Wade's bit about not wanting to look like a college boy made me think of myself. Sometimes I try to dress up in a grown-up outfit, like a pair of chinos and a button-down shirt with the hopes that I'll look like I'm at least in my early 30's, only to get told I still look 22. I'm thinking about dying the rest of my hair grey in hopes that I can look about 35. I hate looking so young- it's annoying to get carded all the time. One time I even got carded to see an R-rated movie! I heard that you can create realistic wrinkles using latex makeup- I'm curious to try it. I would love to look at least in my mid-30's, with greyer hair and crow's feet.