Paternity

[MJ85]

Hmmm, I always saw Stef as more the wife than the husband...  LOL....

 

You say that as if it would make even a lick of difference.

[Mark Arbour]

I'm one of Robbie's biggest fans, but I can't support his actions in this most recent chapter.  JJ should be able to invite (or exclude) whomever he wants for his birthday party (the one on Saturday) but Friday's dinner is for family, and that means everyone, including Will.  Even though Brad and Robbie have their favorites among the three boys, they are parents to all of them and have to teach them 'family values' from time to time.  In this case, JJ doesn't get to ban his brother from a family dinner, even for a birthday.  So, I am not happy with Robbie over allowing this to happen. 

 

I'm never all that happy with Will because of how he acts in general, but that's a whole 'nother story....

 

You'll see with this latest chapter that you, Tim, and some others were thinking along the same lines as JP and Claire.  

[PrivateTim]

There have been too many replies and too many details to respond to each one, so here is the gist for me.

 

I don't expect Will to say no to sex, although in 2000, a lot more young gays were willing to wait for a variety of reasons, AIDS being one, the chances to be more open about being gay and in a relationship for another and a few more factors.

 

But I do expect some men to say no to Will and mostly due to his age because that is realistic and realism is something that Mark goes to great lengths to create. Some men might say no because Will isn't their type, but someone who found Will completely hot and still said no because of his age would add more realism, more drama and a chance to explore Will's many moods and psyche.

 

There are gay men who would turn Will down because he is young. There is another whole element that would seek him out because he is young. At a gay club few people think about the guy you are hitting on being underage because in theory everyone is 21+ or at least 18+ in 18 and over clubs like Tiger Heat and Rage. But when I first started going out in LA, Arena was an all ages club. You'd see 13 and 14 year old boys in there. I had friends (on both sides of 18) who came away much worse for the experiences they had that started at Arena. Eventually there were enough problems that someone (LAPD? LADA?) told Arena it was a bad idea to allow under 18 people to mix with adults and alcohol and they changed the policy to 18+. Of course kids sneak in with fake ID's, but a JJ or Alistair would never get in.

 

I agree with the comment, I think it was MJ, that without the realistic "no" to Will once in a while we descend towards Niftyism

[Mark Arbour]

There have been too many replies and too many details to respond to each one, so here is the gist for me.

 

I don't expect Will to say no to sex, although in 2000, a lot more young gays were willing to wait for a variety of reasons, AIDS being one, the chances to be more open about being gay and in a relationship for another and a few more factors.

 

But I do expect some men to say no to Will and mostly due to his age because that is realistic and realism is something that Mark goes to great lengths to create. Some men might say no because Will isn't their type, but someone who found Will completely hot and still said no because of his age would add more realism, more drama and a chance to explore Will's many moods and psyche.

 

There are gay men who would turn Will down because he is young. There is another whole element that would seek him out because he is young. At a gay club few people think about the guy you are hitting on being underage because in theory everyone is 21+ or at least 18+ in 18 and over clubs like Tiger Heat and Rage. But when I first started going out in LA, Arena was an all ages club. You'd see 13 and 14 year old boys in there. I had friends (on both sides of 18) who came away much worse for the experiences they had that started at Arena. Eventually there were enough problems that someone (LAPD? LADA?) told Arena it was a bad idea to allow under 18 people to mix with adults and alcohol and they changed the policy to 18+. Of course kids sneak in with fake ID's, but a JJ or Alistair would never get in.

 

I agree with the comment, I think it was MJ, that without the realistic "no" to Will once in a while we descend towards Niftyism

 

You didn't gloat over being right about JP and the family not approving of Will being excluded from the parties?  You're going soft.  

 

I don't disagree that there are guys who would turn Will down, some because of his age, some because he's not their type, but he hasn't really encountered them yet, probably because of the relatively sheltered world he's lived in.  Then again, if I had him cruising gay clubs, and meeting guys there, you guys would probably really give me some shit.  In any event, that's not really in the cards for this story.  

 

As I said before, I think that having him go to Menlo will possibly give him better opportunities to meet "age-appropriate" guys.  I wonder how big of an issue that really is at Harvard-Westlake, having the high school freshmen stuck back with the younger kids?  I can see how that would be really problematic for a guy like Will, who could otherwise have struck up a relationship with a sophomore or junior.  

[MJ85]

You didn't gloat over being right about JP and the family not approving of Will being excluded from the parties?  You're going soft.  

 

He even liked my post too! That's what shocks me.

 

In any case, on to this chapter.

 

I think it's all but clear that Robbie is now past the point of no return. There really is nothing anyone can do about him now except stand by helplessly and watch, even if it's watching him go over the proverbial cliff. He'll just fight back against anyone who tries to intervene, and even if Brad were to completely walk out on him, he'd just react like a petulant brat. The entire family could turn against him (other than JJ), and he'd embrace his new-found "island". I don't even think a supposed "apology" from Will would do anything - not that I'd expect that to even happen now. I get the vibe that "Mr. Pulling-The-Strings" JJ is in firm control of Robbie now, and an "apology" from Will would simply get a reaction from JJ of: "Will gave an inch...now's our turn to take a mile!" (metaphorically speaking)

 

Or...is it Jeanine, who's really been pulling the strings all along, with something that we don't even know about yet?

 

As for Noah: No way would he be a good fit for Will. Three words: Too Much Baggage. There's something lingering there from that guy at the party. Could they still be seeing each other on the low, even? Because that's all Will really needs to deal with at this point...just another Tony! What I can't help but notice, though, is...when has Will ever really been in a solid position to even just make friends with a guy? Either he ends up fooling around with the guy, or the "so-called" friend turns out to be...well...just that. And all things considered, 2000 has been more about drama than not about drama for him.

[Daddydavek]

I don't think my favorite author is writing off Robbie.  In the chapter just posted, it is clear that Brad has not given up on him and he even pointed out to Will why it may be in his self-interest to make the first conciliatory move toward Robbie.  Of course that was rebuffed, but things are never easy, so what else is new? 

 

While the shenanigans of the younger CAP generation remain filled with adolescent angst, Robbie has in many ways often made things interesting as well as he seems to stumble through his family relationships.   Who else could fill his role?

Edited December 29, 2012 by Daddydavek

[GLH]

Robbie has in many ways often made things interesting as well as he seems to stumble through his family relationships.   Who else could fill his role?

 

Methinks you're being far too kind, Daddydavek.  Robbie 'stumbles' with all the sublety, thoughtfulness and finesse of a juggernaut.

Edited December 29, 2012 by GLH

[Mark Arbour]

This mostly pertains to Odyssey, but you Paternity readers may find it interesting as well:

My GA Blog

[centexhairysub]

Chapter 81, I read it and my heart broke and I cried.....

[Mark Arbour]

Chapter 81, I read it and my heart broke and I cried.....

 

I'm sorry.  Chapter 82 won't cheer you up either.  

[Daddydavek]

Chapter 82 is up and is from Wade's POV but is mostly about Robbie.  Mark indicated in his e-mail to the group that it was not a very uplifting chapter and he delivered.   It looks like he laid out in some detail just all the ways that Robbie could be dealt with for his continued intransigence. 

[Hermetically Sealed]

It looks like he laid out in some detail just all the ways that Robbie could be dealt with for his continued intransigence.

 

 

It's called 9-11.  I think the writing was on the wall from the start of this particular story that Robbie is being groomed to be off'd, And not in the fun Thai soi weekend sort of way.

[MJ85]

The only reason I'd disagree with you on that, is that after this chapter, I don't expect him to even make it to 9/11, not unless he gets completely exiled from the family and they end up finding out from a distance or something.

 

Yeah...this chapter only confirms what I've been suspecting: He's dug himself in so far, that he could throw everything away, even die, as long as it means never having come around. If he is to come around, it needs to start now somehow - or sorry Mark, but it's just not going to be believable.

[Hermetically Sealed]

I really have never been a fan of this whole poor wittle Will, mean ol'Robbie and Brad thing, so no matter what happens, meh. But lets face it, any other character everyone would be besides themselves trying to make things work. Even resigned heavily when no other way could be found. Yet when it has come to Robbie, the first reaction of everyone (especially Stef) has been to put him down, belittle, bully and basically play upon every past trauma, then act completely surprised when things go sidewise. I don't just mean in this story, either.  this seems to be a thing since The Box. Will meanwhile, throws a petulant temper tantrum because daddy and Pops weren't doting on his every moment for a week or two after months of family time in Ohio, Europe and Hawaii a mere few weeks before, inflicts massive damage and everyone is besides themselves with sorrow.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Hermetically Sealed

[MJ85]

To tell you the truth though, I almost expect it to eventually be revealed that all along, there has been something far more sinister going on involving Robbie, JJ, and Jeanine. Their characterizations keep getting dragged towards the point of purely outright evil.

[mmike1969]

Chapt 82:  Drama queens

 

 

  “If you don’t want me to be here, I can solve that problem right now,” Robbie said, tossing his napkin on the table. 

 

What is with these people and their napkin tossing???

 

 

 

Before anyone else could speak, Jack stood up.  “I don’t want you here.  I can barely stand to be in the same room with you.  But I would never think of not inviting you to be here.  You’re part of this family for as long as Brad puts up with your stupid ass.  That means you get to be here.  Period.  But it also means that you have that same obligation to the rest of us, and you have that same obligation to your children.” 

 

Except this is not your house Jack... Not that I don't agree with your statement, but still...

 

 

Anyways: Summary:

Will to Robbie: Bitch!

Claire and Jack to Robbie: Bitch!

Brad to Robbie: Bitch!

Stef: (You are so close to being fired you) bitch!

Frank: This is all MY Fault! (runs out crying)

JP: WTF is wrong with these people and at my age why do I have to deal with this crap?

Robbie:  F* all you you bitches!  I am out of here!

Nana: God damn, these people have worse drama then MY Family!

 

Senator Danfield:  F all you Lefties! GW Is Pres!

Nana to Wade:  It's all on you after I die. 

[Mark Arbour]

 

 

 

 

 

 

What is with these people and their napkin tossing???

 

 

 

Putting your napkin on the table usually indicates you're done eating.  That's why Robbie did that.  

 

 

 

 

Except this is not your house Jack... Not that I don't agree with your statement, but still...

 

 

Which is why I think Jack said he didn't want Robbie there, said he didn't have a right to be there, but never actually threw him out.  That's JP's job (or maybe Stef). 

 

 

 

 

Anyways: Summary:

 

Will to Robbie: Bitch!

Claire and Jack to Robbie: Bitch!

Brad to Robbie: Bitch!

Stef: (You are so close to being fired you) bitch!

Frank: This is all MY Fault! (runs out crying)

JP: WTF is wrong with these people and at my age why do I have to deal with this crap?

Robbie:  F* all you you bitches!  I am out of here!

Nana: God damn, these people have worse drama then MY Family!

 

Senator Danfield:  F all you Lefties! GW Is Pres!

Nana to Wade:  It's all on you after I die. 

 

I LOVED THIS!  

 

[Mark Arbour]

From Westie's post a few weeks ago (page 65 of the forum) 

 

On to Robbie... This is a guy who has a natural tendency to let others take control. He is easily manipulated because he allows himself to be vulnerable emotionally. This is why he and Brad are so great together - whether he likes it or not Robbie needs someone to steer him in a way that he is incapable. The problem here is that Robbie is allowing other people to cloud his mind. JJ is manipulating him, and Robbie can't see it because he is trying to protect JJ... He see's JJ as vulnerable in a way that he actually isn't. He is manipulated by Janine because he needs to be liked and loved - so he confuses what she wants with what she needs. Most importantly, he still resents Brad being in control - mostly, I suspect, because he cannot face his incapability, and transfers this blame on Brad instead of himself. 

 

I thought that Westie did a good job of describing Robbie's basic vulnerabilities.  I think he and Brad are such a good couple because of the power dynamic in their relationship:  Brad needs to be in control, and Robbie needs someone else to fill that role.  But Robbie probably doesn't really understand that, so as Westie noted, from time to time, he rebels against Brad's control.  

 

Right now, Robbie is probably looking at this situation as an "us vs. them" thing, where it's him, JJ, and Jeanine on one side of the fence, and everyone else on the other side.  Their rant at him at dinner probably had very little impact, because he'd see it as the other side merely lobbing artillery shells at him.  

 

What's happened is that normally he links himself to Brad, but he's shifted his focus to JJ (and Jeanine).  I would bet that he views himself as their big defender, and probably subconsciously he is channeling his nascent resentment of Brad into the equation as well.  He also has a tendency to be very stubborn.  So I think that if you put that cocktail together, you may see why he is rather unwilling to accept the verdict at dinner.  Jeanine and JJ have cast Will as the primary villain in all of this, and Robbie has no doubt internalized that as well.  In short, I think the guy is largely a follower (when it comes to his personal life), and he's hitched his wagon to two people who are pretty much batshit insane.  

Edited January 1, 2013 by Mark Arbour

[Mark Arbour]

StoriReader posted this review, and I thought it was excellent, so much that I wanted to repost it here.  

 

First, another great chapter, and, of course, Happy New Year Mark!
One thing I find extremely interesting about the current situation is that you have some world class strategic thinkers in J.P., Stef, and Brad, and it’s of no value to them in this situation whatsoever.  You cannot out maneuver or subtlety manipulate somebody who does not engage with the world on any level in terms of strategy or manipulation. 

Which is not to say that Robbie is stupid or ignorant, in fact, his emotionally centered perceptions and interaction with the world is probably the key to what makes him good at visualizing what movies would be successes with an audience, and what will not. 

The end result though is that J.P., Stef, and Brad are forced to engage with Robbie the only way anyone can engage with Robbie, which is emotionally.  And since this situation is negative and hostile, the emotional engagement must be negative and hostile.  What will be interesting to see going on is how J.P., Stef, and Brad deal with it in the long term.  Usually people who are as controlled as they are get that way at least in part because they don’t like a lot of emotions involved in their day to day interactions.  As hard as this is on Robbie, oddly enough, he should be the best equipped to deal with the emotional hardship, as his every interaction with the world is through that same emotional prism.  J.P., Stef, and Brad, on the other hand, are, I think, being forced into territory with this that they neither like, nor have nearly the same psychological tools as Robbie, to deal with.  And I am sure that being forced to go into crazy emotion land by Robbie is not something which is going to make them any happier with him either.

All the Best,
S.R.

[centexhairysub]

Well, what can I say but drama drama drama...

 

I do think that sometimes to keep a wound from festering you have to rip the scab off and let all the pus and bad blood drain out before you can get it to heal...  I sort of think this might be the same process except instead of a wound it was the actions of those in the story.  I would think that Frank and Matt's words and behaviour would be the hardest for Robbie to ignore. 

 

I can't and won't try to defend Robbie's actions during this story because I can't.  They just don't make sense to me, that being said, I still like Robbie and don't think the story would be as interesting with him gone.  I have always felt that Brad and to a lesser extent Stef has always bullied and emotionally abused Robbie; this has been going on for years.  It is often done under guise of jokes about his weight, emotionalism, etc....  Those comments have been going on for years and they do take a toll.  Part of Robbie's reaction to Will's behaviour maybe to fight the issues he has with Brad out with Will using him as a proxy for Brad. 

 

I do think it is important to get JJ to see someone.  I still think there is something going on with him besides the obvious.  Brad is going to have to make sure that JJ can't hide behind Robbie or skatting or something else to keep from confronting the issues in his life. 

 

Wade and Nana have such an interesting dynamic.  I can't wait to see how it continues to develop.  I have to say I think a trip back to Washington by Wade/Matt and Nana could prove eventful.  JP has made is clear that Nana is part of the family and I for one believe it is a great addition...

[JLK9N]

Being a fan of Robbie, this was tough to read on an emotional level.  Other than Stef being the evil bitch (which he does so delicously) everything said, while in anger, was all true.  There's no question Robbie (and Brad too, frankly) are failing in their parental roles.  But I'm sad there's no one who can try to work through this with Robbie in a way that doesn't get him so defensive.  I'm not defending his actions, but I truly don't think he comes to it from a 'bad' place.  In situations like this, a gentler style of guidance would probably get Robbie where he needs to be to understand this.

 

It's also sad to really have it laid out bare in this chapter that most of these people only 'tolerate' him because Brad wants him there.  Surely by now Robbie has engendered more feeling (and God forbid, love) from the others than just mere tolerance?  <sigh> 

 

As for this being a set-up for him being offed on 9/11, if so, well I for one will really miss him in the ongoing saga because in so many ways he's the yin to the overwhelming yang of many other members of the family.   

[Hermetically Sealed]

J.P., Stef, and Brad, on the other hand, are, I think, being forced into territory with this that they neither like, nor have nearly the same psychological tools as Robbie, to deal with.  And I am sure that being forced to go into crazy emotion land by Robbie is not something which is going to make them any happier with him either.

 

I would buy that for JP and Wade.  Brad, maybe unconsciously so, but Stef?  Stef has always reveled at emotional dramas. It's his lifeblood.  From the beginning he has always sought to push people's buttons, to throw them off their emotional balance in order to manipulate or hurt. It's one of the things about him I have always disliked, although, I would say he probably is that way as a means of covering up his own insecurities from his childhood.  He just never outgrew the habit. Honestly, I think the only time Stef actively dislikes emotional chaos is when he gets pulled in without consent, then he just gets bitter. 

 

As for Robbie, I can mostly agree, though he seems to get portrayed as dumber and more emotionally unbalanced with each story, even if still supposedly well intentioned. He's Celeste, Queen of Misery, always trying to make everyone happy only to end up a blubbering mess with everyone pissed at him. Great, now every time I read Robbie's lines it's going to be in Sally Field's voice. . .

[Hermetically Sealed]

It's also sad to really have it laid out bare in this chapter that most of these people only 'tolerate' him because Brad wants him there.  Surely by now Robbie has engendered more feeling (and God forbid, love) from the others than just mere tolerance?

 

 

To be honest, Stef hasn't treated Robbie well since Man in Motion. He fully knows Robbie's troubled past, and how traumatized he was before getting under Neil's yoke, but even though he was the one to warn Brad and just how manipulative fisting could be, he basically just blamed Robbie for not being strong enough to overcome his past abuses.  To a degree, so did Brad. I kind of think, probably unconsciously, Robbie reminds Stef too much of Jeff, and has merely transferred his anger (and Jeff's sins) to Robbie. I mean, I would have thought him sympathetic in regards to Neil considering that he himself was similarly used by Jeff after the whole France event. Instead, he just seemed derisive and every 'mistake' made by Robbie brings his wrath. Stef is clearly bearing some sort of grudge, whether he knows it or not.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Hermetically Sealed

[sat8997]

Robbie's an asshole. He's been acting like an asshole. He will continue to act like an asshole until such time as he realizes he's been acting like an asshole. Hopefully that happens before he completely trashes every relationship he has with his family.

[methodwriter85]

Robbie's an asshole. He's been acting like an asshole. He will continue to act like an asshole until such time as he realizes he's been acting like an asshole. Hopefully that happens before he completely trashes every relationship he has with his family.

 

I kind of figured that Robbie's supposed to represent the worst of the "New Rich"- all about materialism and acquiring the next trophy status symbol, and very little about classy behavior or noblesse oblige. Re: The Kardashians. Eww.