Odyssey

[Clydee]

Another great chapter, Mark!  The battle scenes were among your best!  With Granger captured, I wonder how well he will be treated, since he's been such a thorn in the French's side for so long.  Maybe he'll meet up with someone knows him and respects him as an honorable foe and be released.   On the other hand, they might want to eliminate him for good...

 

On the Hornblower issue, I see quite a difference between the show and the books, but you are right, look at them as two seperate entities and you'll be happier.  I have some of the series on my Kindle, but not all are there.  The part where he takes on the 4 ships and gets captured is not on Kindle yet, as far as I can tell.  It's a bit annoying, because they skip over that part and go on to his becoming a Commodore.  I think this whole Bridgemont Series should be put on E-books when you get the chance.  I'd love to have it on Kindle!

 

I love this subject and you write it so well.

 

Another series of books I've read are the Bolitho series by Alexander Kent.  Really good!

I was a little surprised to encounter Jack Aubrey in this chapter, but I guess I shouldn't be.  I've read some of Patrick O'Brien's books, but he really gets technical in his writing and it takes a lot of patience to get through some of them.  (and there are a lot of them!)

 

Sorry for all the hopping around...at my age it's what I seem to do!

 

Thanks again for a great chapter and for a great series!

[Mark Arbour]

Another great chapter, Mark!  The battle scenes were among your best!  With Granger captured, I wonder how well he will be treated, since he's been such a thorn in the French's side for so long.  Maybe he'll meet up with someone knows him and respects him as an honorable foe and be released.   On the other hand, they might want to eliminate him for good...

 

On the Hornblower issue, I see quite a difference between the show and the books, but you are right, look at them as two seperate entities and you'll be happier.  I have some of the series on my Kindle, but not all are there.  The part where he takes on the 4 ships and gets captured is not on Kindle yet, as far as I can tell.  It's a bit annoying, because they skip over that part and go on to his becoming a Commodore.  I think this whole Bridgemont Series should be put on E-books when you get the chance.  I'd love to have it on Kindle!

 

I love this subject and you write it so well.

 

Another series of books I've read are the Bolitho series by Alexander Kent.  Really good!

I was a little surprised to encounter Jack Aubrey in this chapter, but I guess I shouldn't be.  I've read some of Patrick O'Brien's books, but he really gets technical in his writing and it takes a lot of patience to get through some of them.  (and there are a lot of them!)

 

Sorry for all the hopping around...at my age it's what I seem to do!

 

Thanks again for a great chapter and for a great series!

 

Thanks!  I'll work on posting the Bridgemont books as e-books here on GA shortly.  I put CAP up, then got distracted...it's an ADD thing. 

 

I like the Bolitho series, but I find his character (Richard Bolitho) a bit annoying, and not nearly as endearing as Hornblower, with his quirkiness.  Patrick O'Brian's series never really clicked for me, but I thought it was fun to put Aubrey into the mix.  I'll have to weave Hornblower in too.  :-)

[damejintymcginty]

Hi Mark,

 

Tried to reply to your comment about Chartley in my review.  Did you kill him off?  Thought he went off to China with John Company in chapter 45.  Did he succumb to an Opium addiction?  If I missed that then I promise to dye my hair blonde as I seem to have gone dizzy.  If, as I suspect, you are teasing me...ignore my opium ref.  I don't want Chartley to 'do a Jeff'.  Don't think my poor heart would stand it. 

[Mark Arbour]

Hi Mark,

 

Tried to reply to your comment about Chartley in my review.  Did you kill him off?  Thought he went off to China with John Company in chapter 45.  Did he succumb to an Opium addiction?  If I missed that then I promise to dye my hair blonde as I seem to have gone dizzy.  If, as I suspect, you are teasing me...ignore my opium ref.  I don't want Chartley to 'do a Jeff'.  Don't think my poor heart would stand it. 

 

I didn't kill Chartley off, but it's not an unreasonable possibility.  Going to Canton was hazardous duty.

[ricky]

Mark,

If, "Conservatives yearn for the past, Progressives yearn for the future" then what do conservative progressives yearn for?

[sandrewn]

This is the one article I found about your question.

 

http://blkandred.blogspot.ca/2011/09/progressive-conservatism.html

[centexhairysub]

I didn't kill Chartley off, but it's not an unreasonable possibility.  Going to Canton was hazardous duty.

 

No......  They have to have more time together....  Evil Mark for even suggesting such a course of action...

[Westie]

Parole was very common in those days, although I haven't done a lot of research on it, other than to note that it happened frequently.  Both of the officers captured on the real Leander were paroled almost immediately.  They were landed in Trieste and made their way overland, ultimately to England.  Nelson himself would go back to England via the overland route. 

 

Parole of an officer was a matter of honour, and it was done on both sides.  Officers were paroled as soon as it was convenient for the capturing side.... i.e. after they had either extracted maximum propaganda from it, or had the officers placed for maximum inconvenience.  They could and would impose conditions such as banning the prisoner from baring arms until a suitable prisoner exchange or treaty had taken place.

 

To execute a prisoner of war outside of battle was considered a grave offence. However it should be noted that the first instance of a prisoner of war camp took place concurrently with the story, with around 4000 prisoners being held for extraordinary lengths of time (by the standard of the day) at Norman Cross.  This was made necessary in part by the unprecedented number of prisoners held, and also by Bonaparte's habit of refusing to recognise parole terms.

[Mark Arbour]

Parole of an officer was a matter of honour, and it was done on both sides.  Officers were paroled as soon as it was convenient for the capturing side.... i.e. after they had either extracted maximum propaganda from it, or had the officers placed for maximum inconvenience.  They could and would impose conditions such as banning the prisoner from baring arms until a suitable prisoner exchange or treaty had taken place.

 

To execute a prisoner of war outside of battle was considered a grave offence. However it should be noted that the first instance of a prisoner of war camp took place concurrently with the story, with around 4000 prisoners being held for extraordinary lengths of time (by the standard of the day) at Norman Cross.  This was made necessary in part by the unprecedented number of prisoners held, and also by Bonaparte's habit of refusing to recognise parole terms.

 

I've done some research on this, and the general consensus I get is that the French Revolutionary/Napoleonic Wars were the tipping point.  During the earlier part of the wars, and prior to that, parole is much as you have described.  In the latter part, and beyond, it was rarely granted, and hence the large parole towns in England, and Verdun in France.  Based on what I've read, it seems that we're lucky Granger was captured in 1798 and not 1808. 

[JimCarter]

Hey Mark,

 

I don't want to whine, but will we be getting another awesome chapter anytime soon?

[Mark Arbour]

Hey Mark,

 

I don't want to whine, but will we be getting another awesome chapter anytime soon?

 

Just posted.  Saturdays are our Odyssey days. 

[JimCarter]

Just posted.  Saturdays are our Odyssey days. 

 

Thanks for the new chapter.  I am glad to see that our wise and honorable Lord Granger was able to get on the good side of a bad situation.  Some of his treatment might be from his noble status, but I am sure that his attitude and treating the victors with the respect he would expect if the roles were reversed had something to do with his treatment as well.  Attitude and respect are rarely given unless they are mutual.

 

That is just my opinion and like the old saying goes like assholes everyone has one.

[centexhairysub]

I really enjoyed the latest chapter.  I do think that Granger played the situation perfectly.  His level of ingrained and learned behaviour would make the most stringent social arbiter set up and take notes.

 

 

I think that Granger was right in that there is no reason to antagonize the people that will be in charge of dealing with both you and that captured crew.  Why make it rougher for either you or the men under you; the problem is that so many of those in charge really cared very little for those that followed them.  This is what makes Granger so different from so many of those in charge in both the navy and society at the time of this story.  I have never understood those that fail to understand that if you treat a person right, you get better results from them. 

 

 

I really did not know that William James was a lawyer.  I have read several versions of the aftermath of this battle and they all seem to favor the British version; but of course to some extent the British won the war and we tend to accept the victor's version over the defeated.  The truth is probably just as you said somewhere in between. 

 

 

I can't wait for Granger to get back on his way home.  He really has quite a few things to wrap up but I want to see how he is going to handle the issue with his ship being destroyed.  I could easily see this story hitting 100 chapters....        

[Daddydavek]

Chapter 62 had some amazing details lifted from historical accounts which were seamlessly woven into the current account in a totally believable way.   The character of Granger is consistent and placing him into a fairly well-documented historical event was masterfully done and continues to move the Odyssey along.   Like the rest of the 91 who actively are following this story, I can't wait to see what happens next!

[Westie]

I really did not know that William James was a lawyer.  I have read several versions of the aftermath of this battle and they all seem to favor the British version; but of course to some extent the British won the war and we tend to accept the victor's version over the defeated.  The truth is probably just as you said somewhere in between. 

 

Mark and I had a bit of a disagreement about the Leander; I of course being a true Patriot am utterly convinced that the British version is completely accurate because we British would never lie about such things against the French

 

In all seriousness, it is VERY interesting to note that no mention of this ill treatment is recorded in what I consider the two most reliable of contemporary sources.  The first is the Court Martial of Captain Thomas Thompson - at which no testament records any such behaviour by th French.  The second is a pamphlet written by Captain Edward Berry called "Authentic Narrative of the proceedings of his Majesty's squadron under the command of the Rear-Admiral Sir Horatio Nelson" which is an account of the Nile and contains a copy of Thompson's letter to Nelson informing him of their capture.

 

In the first example, you might be forgiven for saying that since a court-martial is interested only in the capture of a ship and not subsequent events, then this detail would not be included in the record.  However the second example was for publication in common newspapers; detail such as that would have been like ambrosia to a newspaper editor.

 

If anyone is interested, a digitised version of "Authentic Narrative of the proceedings of his Majesty's squadron under the command of the Rear-Admiral Sir Horatio Nelson" by Sir Edward Berry can be found here and contains a clinical interpretation of the battle as it happened.

 

West

[davewri]

History is written by both the winners and the losers.     The version that survives is usually created by the winners and might be exaggerated in favor of the victor. It's human nature to boast of our success and minimize or failures.  Granger is most always going to be on the winning side.

[Mark Arbour]

History is written by both the winners and the losers.     The version that survives is usually created by the winners and might be exaggerated in favor of the victor. It's human nature to boast of our success and minimize or failures.  Granger is most always going to be on the winning side.

 

Well yeah.  I don't want to write about a character who is miserable and loses all the time.   

 

I think it's pretty apparent that victors write the history.  To me, the fun part about it is trying to sift the propaganda apart from what really happened.

 

Thinking back to the Battle of St. Vincent, if I were to be objective, I'd probably give Jervis a "C" grade for the way he handled things.  He was too tied to existing doctrine, and too slow to react to changes in the weather, and almost let the Spanish slip by him.  I think that if he'd have let his ships have their freedom to go at the Spaniards, he would have doubled the prizes he'd taken.  Yet history records it as a big victory, and he received an earldom for his efforts.  Then again, Jervis did not have the confidence in his captains that Nelson had (IMHO), and the results that Nelson was able to achieve at the Nile (and later, at Trafalgar) show what a truly brilliant leader and strategist could achieve. 

[ricky]

I was amazed to find that my second wife was taught in the UK that we didn't win our independence but the King cut us loose because we were too much trouble. My German friends were taught that we aimed for Duseldorf and we ended up bombing Heroshima. They never explained if it was poor aiming they were taught or a changed target directive at the last minute. Go figure. (Would have been more than just having a a blonde doing the aiming if the former were true.) lol

[B1ue]

I was amazed to find that my second wife was taught in the UK that we didn't win our independence but the King cut us loose because we were too much trouble. My German friends were taught that we aimed for Duseldorf and we ended up bombing Heroshima. They never explained if it was poor aiming they were taught or a changed target directive at the last minute. Go figure. (Would have been more than just having a a blonde doing the aiming if the former were true.) lol

 

1) That's a way of looking at those events, I suppose. It's true enough, but I don't see how "winning" is mutually exclusive with being "too annoying to continue bothering with." Isn't that the point of asymmetrical/guerilla warfare, of which the American Revolution is an early historical example? It would seem to me that both narratives are correct, in that case, depending on your point of view.

 

2) I would suspect it was a change of targeting priorities. VE day had already been declared months prior to the Hiroshima bombing. I do recall reading that the bombs were not originally built with Japan in mind, but I don't remember the details. It would have been sort of awkward striking Germany four months after their military surrender, but sadly, it's not out of the realm of possibility. "Look, we spent the money on them, we have to use them. It is in the budget. It's in the budget in ink! Just because other people can't keep to their part of the schedule is no reason to slack off."

[ricky]

1) That's a way of looking at those events, I suppose. It's true enough, but I don't see how "winning" is mutually exclusive with being "too annoying to continue bothering with." Isn't that the point of asymmetrical/guerilla warfare, of which the American Revolution is an early historical example? It would seem to me that both narratives are correct, in that case, depending on your point of view.

 

2) I would suspect it was a change of targeting priorities. VE day had already been declared months prior to the Hiroshima bombing. I do recall reading that the bombs were not originally built with Japan in mind, but I don't remember the details. It would have been sort of awkward striking Germany four months after their military surrender, but sadly, it's not out of the realm of possibility. "Look, we spent the money on them, we have to use them. It is in the budget. It's in the budget in ink! Just because other people can't keep to their part of the schedule is no reason to slack off."

OMG you are too funny. Of course the truth is often funnier than fiction. And using one's budget completely IS a must lest they think you don't need it the next year. Yes, a scrumptious concept and probably a reason our government is full of obese people. I mean, you can only eat so many doughnuts before they start to show. So the addiction begins, the next thing you know they have a doughnut budget. NOW what do they do at the end of the year? Ice cream? Oh, let them eat cake.(Preferably the same kind Marie Antoinette referred to.)

 

In the case of winning, We learned that tactic from the Indians. We explained to our new allies what was expected of them and they laughed. "You're gonna do what?" they said.

 

"Well we are going to stand out in front of them in our uniforms while we shoot at each other." Again they laughed.

 

"Well we have a better idea. Why not wear our regular earth toned clothes and hide behind rocks and trees and wait for them to walk in front of us then shoot them like ducks in a lake!"

 

"Brilliant! Now what do you say to a cup of tea?"

 

"Any fire water? Tea tastes like deer ass."

 

And the birth of Gorilla warfare began.

It should be noted that we bought Manhattan for $24 worth of beads and blankets. They've made millions selling that crap back to us over the years.

 

So winning? Completely subjective I agree.

[centexhairysub]

Really a great chapter and a day early as well, I was so excited when I saw this...

 

 

Well, Granger is now off to France and may even get a visit to Paris.  I have to wonder how the French Lt will handle things when he is back on shore with better access to women?  I thought that Granger handled the situation with the French Captain just perfectly.  He did what he could not to antagonize him and try and make the life for the British sailors better.  That is what a real leader does... 

 

 

Glad to see that Winkler and Jacobs finally caught up with St Vincent and got the information to him.  I have to wonder what is going to happen to Winkler when he shows up home in London without Granger; Caroline is going to have something to say about this...  LOL...  I also can't wait for Jacobs and Winkler to end up together.  I have to think that will be very interesting, I hope we get to go through it... 

 

 

Could Winkler have been assigned somewhere else?  Isn't he a personal servant of Granger and wouldn't this make him immune to being placed on another shipe???  Westie help!!!!

[Daddydavek]

I suspect that St. Vincent could have decided to assign Winkler and Jacobs if seamen were needed and no one would have been able to question his decision.  Just as no one could question his decision to send them to London.  He had that kind of power.  

 

That George gets to get paraded to Paris is another twist in the Odyssey and I suspect he will have to make the best of it.  Perhaps he will find a tailor and have some new clothes made as well?

 

Calvert and company are yet to be heard from since the last minute rescue of the remaining survivors of Bacchante and I wouldn't be surprised to see something about their adventures soon.  

 

Is there anyone of Mark's fans who are not completely blown away by his ability to write such captivating stories, never mind doing two at the same time?

Edited September 6, 2013 by Daddydavek

[Mark Arbour]

I

That George gets to get paraded to Paris is another twist in the Odyssey and I suspect he will have to make the best of it.  Perhaps he will find a tailor and have some new clothes made as well?

 

 

It's funny you mention that, because I see Granger doing just that when he gets to Paris. 

[ricky]

Really a great chapter and a day early as well, I was so excited when I saw this...

 

 

Well, Granger is now off to France and may even get a visit to Paris.  I have to wonder how the French Lt will handle things when he is back on shore with better access to women?  I thought that Granger handled the situation with the French Captain just perfectly.  He did what he could not to antagonize him and try and make the life for the British sailors better.  That is what a real leader does... 

 

 

Glad to see that Winkler and Jacobs finally caught up with St Vincent and got the information to him.  I have to wonder what is going to happen to Winkler when he shows up home in London without Granger; Caroline is going to have something to say about this...  LOL...  I also can't wait for Jacobs and Winkler to end up together.  I have to think that will be very interesting, I hope we get to go through it... 

 

 

Could Winkler have been assigned somewhere else?  Isn't he a personal servant of Granger and wouldn't this make him immune to being placed on another shipe???  Westie help!!!!

Well said on all accounts. Both on Mark's understanding of leadership and on predicting Lady Granger's explosion. At least they have not yet heard of Granger's fever. The only message that carried that tune was on Bachantee and it died with her.

 

I fear that Winkler and Jacobs getting together will insure that the story is headed for a land based trend. Mark loves politics. But I fear that Winkler will be written out if Granger goes back to sea. He almost stayed ashore before this odessy. I still think he has served above and beyond the call and Granger owes him a debt. I know his prize money will be large like the rest, but something more personal is due him. Perhaps some land and a cottage somewhere near where he can still serve and still settle down with his about to be new love. **sigh**

 

And what of the men who were sailing to meet the french corvet? Will they get it as a prize? How cool would that be? Especially if our little Irish peer was given command to bring her back home.He could use a boost of morale and a little favor from the King.

 

Ah, if wishes were horses then beggers would ride . . .

I suspect the next chapter will be aboard Santa Clarita, the French Corvet and in gay Pari'

 

Well done Lord St Arbour.

[centexhairysub]

 

And what of the men who were sailing to meet the french corvet? Will they get it as a prize? How cool would that be? Especially if our little Irish peer was given command to bring her back home.He could use a boost of morale and a little favor from the King.

 

 

 

I have been wondering and worrying about Eastwyck, Kingsdale, Andrews, and the other men that went north.  I would really like to know what happened there.  Did they stage a takedown of the French corvette or did Santa Clarita show up in time to rescue them? 

 

 

There was something really intersting about the young Baron of Kingsdale and I would really like to find out what is going on with him, I hope he gets to stick around for a while. 

 

 

Granger in Paris is going to be a unique adventure.  I have to wonder how long he will be there...