Odyssey

[Westie]

Hi,

 

Sorry for delayed response, I have been travelling extensively in Eastern Europe with work.....

 

It is important to note that a rating was a measure of capability and capacity.  It included cannon, but not corronades.  So while a ship might be "rated" as a 32 or 74 etc. - that did not necessarily indicate the reality of how many guns were on board the ship.  This was tailored to allow for the eccentricities of a particular ship - such as handling and how she lies in the water.

 

I hope this clarifies a little more?

 

West

[ricky]

ok, its 4 minutes into saturday already and its not there!

I know, I know. Anxious much? I can't help it. He's that good.

[JimCarter]

Another wonderful chapter with Winkler as the star.  The young man has managed to learn and adapt much like his captain.

 

I am not a Spencer fan and I have for a time thought he might be more in bed with Maidstone than appears.  I might be wrong, but he has not been one of my favorite people for awhile.  

 

I hope this latest action from the Mann/Wilcox bunch is enough to purge them from the Navy once and or all.

[rjo]

Honestly I long for George to return home. I think Paris is only 100 miles or so from London. I was so happy to see Winkler and Jacobs get safely home. They as all the crew have gone through so much. Even today traveling around the world can be an adventure in those days not many lived to do it. From this chapter I can only help but believe that Caroline has restored her position with the King as well as society at large. She is a powerful force thank God she is firmly on George's side. When Calvert returns most of the remaining pieces will be laid out. I wonder what the Guild will think about Maidstone's gruesome end. Spencer with have to give Lord Granger a even bigger ship.

[ricky]

A fantastic chapter. I confess that Granger in Paris has relatively little appeal to me. (Sorry Mark) Little swash-buckling being done there.

However, I'm elated that Winkler is back. And how perceptive Caroline was to pick up on the relationship between Jacobs and Winkler. I hope there is a little scene from that event in the next chapter. I agree that Spencer was not a big player but he was indeed a player. That was obvious in how he dealt with the situation with the good doctor.

I don't see them able to unseat a Lord of the Navy easily. Perhaps a carriage accident? Then they can be done with them. Word has not reached them yet of Grangers ship being lost or the honorable yet horrible demise of Humphries.

 

Which brings me to a question. The postal service has always had a somewhat immunity to war and aggression. I realize that the UK had a formal postal service since the 1500's and I assume that letters were passed even during times of war. Is that a correct assumption? If that were so then a letter to Caroline might reach London before Calvert. Just a thought. He also needs to make sure funds are transferred although that is not set to happen until he is returned.

Somehow I rather expect him to come home with a french medal. He seems to collect them, even from those they are at war with. lol

[centexhairysub]

This was just an outstanding chapter all the way around...  Still out of the state so doing this on my phone, forgive me any issues...

 

 

I am amazed at how resourceful and resilient Winkler proved under these circumstances.  I think it would have been rare for someone in his position to have been able to handle this the way he did...  It says a lot about both Granger and Caroline that they have these type of people willing to work for them and stay with them...  Jacobs is a great asset to Winkler and I hope they are able to stay together for a long time.  They both handled themselves exceptionally well.

 

 

So impressed by not only how Caroline handled herself but with how she so easily understood the situation and all the implications therein.  It says a lot about her as a woman that she was able to pull off what she did and still hold the position in society that she does, although that position helps her pull something like this off.  I hope that Granger is on his way home when she finds out he has been captured and in Paris or she may be on her way there to get him out...

 

 

If the Earl uses this to get himself elevated to a Marquisate then Granger will be able to get his promotion to an Earldom.  I just can't see them promoting Granger while his father is also an Earl.  

 

 

Glad that the government decided the handle the situation with the ships the way the have, this will make Granger wealthy beyond compare.  Even glad for Calvert but do hope he and Gatling are off to the Caribbean before Granger returns.  Both the King and the government will be happy that Maidstone did not make it back, will anyone mourn him?  They will also be happy the letters are at the bottom of the sea.  Have to wonder if Maidstone's co-conspirators will take note of how he meet his death?  

[ricky]

I have to firmly agree that Caroline uses her position and the fact that she is a woman to her advantage. She could get away with a lot that a man could not. Bearding Spencer publicly for one. But she knew her limits and delivered the message and was off to make him sweat bullets over how much trouble he was going to be in. I'm sure he knew his position was secure but he also knew he had some work to do to get back in their good graces and to minimize damages. At the very least he will evaluate his part in any ventures in the future a little more critically.

[Westie]

Honestly I long for George to return home. I think Paris is only 100 miles or so from London.

 

Paris is 281 miles by modern roads, including the channel tunnel - the travel at this time in history was considerably longer (no tunnel) and relied on getting a ship.  Considering France was under blockade, this would have been very difficult unless a pre-arranged meeting under a flag of truce took place.

 

Onto more interesting subjects - I have a large essay somewhere on the history of the British Post Office.  Needless to say I wont bore you with it, however at this time in history the system was run under the "Postmaster general" and fees were paid upon receipt based on the costs incurred in its delivery.  the so called "penny post" would not be introduced until 1840 (and was briefly preceded by the four-penny post).

 

Some things to note - military mail was compartmentalised.  That is to say that it was transported separately, from point to point, with the Royal Mail handling only the "logistics" (i.e. - they owned the coach).  Personal mail would then be sorted by the army or navy and forwarded on by the Royal Mail.  It was often also read by the forerunners of the intelligence services, and so someone like George would have his letters delivered by private messenger, where it would be delivered entirely privately and separately.

 

Most of the aristocracy employed what would previously have been called heralds, but by this time were "messengers" who would run their errands and deliver personal letters.

 

To answer the question on a letter from George reaching Caroline - this would OF COURSE have been possible.  But it would have taken months.  France was under blockade, and so it would have to travel via merchant to a country/ship friendly with both sides and be transferred there, and then that merchant ship deliver either to a messenger or a mail coach in London.

 

I suspect that any letter George may write will arrive well after the navy has notified the Earl.

[ricky]

Thanks so much for that. Were there ambassadors then or were they expelled when war was declared? I mean exchanges had to be arranged, right? I remember granger delivering the spanish when spain entered the game.

[Canuk]

Back after a bit of an absence

 

There were definitely Ambassadors and as a consequence of the communication delays mentioned above they had considerably more power than their successors today. In times of war they had to play a complex "game" where their behind the scenes activities had to be very discrete while maintaining the diplomatic niceties above the surface. Some of the activities of Ambassadors in this era have written interesting diaries/published letters that describe this in all its messy detail.

[ricky]

Back after a bit of an absence

 

There were definitely Ambassadors and as a consequence of the communication delays mentioned above they had considerably more power than their successors today. In times of war they had to play a complex "game" where their behind the scenes activities had to be very discrete while maintaining the diplomatic niceties above the surface. Some of the activities of Ambassadors in this era have written interesting diaries/published letters that describe this in all its messy detail.

Sounds interesting.

[Mark Arbour]

Back after a bit of an absence

 

There were definitely Ambassadors and as a consequence of the communication delays mentioned above they had considerably more power than their successors today. In times of war they had to play a complex "game" where their behind the scenes activities had to be very discrete while maintaining the diplomatic niceties above the surface. Some of the activities of Ambassadors in this era have written interesting diaries/published letters that describe this in all its messy detail.

 

Very true, BUT there would not have been ambassadors in countries at war.   There was no British ambassador in France at this time. And welcome back! 

[Westie]

Very true, BUT there would not have been ambassadors in countries at war.   There was no British ambassador in France at this time. And welcome back! 

 

Diplomatic discussions were "arranged" via third parties.  However, as the war went on, this became increasingly difficult because there were very few nations that remained neutral.

[sandrewn]

Speaking of whalers, how important was whaling to the English economy? Wasn't whale oil at that time the main fuel for lamps (besides candles), also used in the making of soap. Around this time they had about sixty whaling ships. So, where whalers protected from the press gangs? Could St. vincent have pressed the American whalers if not the English ones, especially if Lord Granger had promised their release upon returning to England? I would expect there was trading being done between the former colonies and England. Can any one shed some light on this, thanks in advance.

[Kookie]

Speaking of whalers, how important was whaling to the English economy? Wasn't whale oil at that time the main fuel for lamps (besides candles), also used in the making of soap. Around this time they had about sixty whaling ships. So, where whalers protected from the press gangs? Could St. vincent have pressed the American whalers if not the English ones, especially if Lord Granger had promised their release upon returning to England? I would expect there was trading being done between the former colonies and England. Can any one shed some light on this, thanks in advance.

 

Over a hundred different products were made from Whales.  Everything from Corsets to perfume to lamp oil.  The British whaling industry was important and even subsidize by the government (prior to the revolutionary war, most of Britians whaling was done by the colonial fleets.  While Great Britain boasted 60 whaling ships over 100 whaling ships call Nantucket, MA home plus numerous others were homed in other American New England ports.

 

Yes, at this time there was considerable trade between America and Great Britain.  That trade was important enough the British navy offered protection to American merchant ships.

 

St. Vincent could have pressed the American whalers.  Pressing of American sailors is the often quoted reason for the War of 1812.  Even though in reality that was just the public excuse (similar to the sinking of the Luthusiana for Americas entry into WW I).  It should be noted that Britain was courting America at the time hoping to possibly lure them to enter the war on Great Britain's side. 

[sandrewn]

So even if whalers were vital (or at least important) to the economy, they were still pressed. Sort of like biting the hand that feeds you.

 

Thanks Kookie,may the Force be with you.

[Westie]

We are confusing some timelines here.  The time in the story is currently 1798, and to be quite frank, America was still a weak nation.  Growing stronger by the day, naturally, but let's not pretend that it was anything near a superpower.

 

Trade with Britain was still one sided.  Britain's exports to the united states dwarfed her imports and while the Americans profited hugely in selling timber, food and other resources to BOTH the French and English, this was by no means critical to either side.  Both Britain and France had large an sprawling colonial holdings, with diverse trade networks.  

 

Fast forward to 1808, and it's a different story.  American military strength had grown (but, crucially not enough to intervene meaningfully in Europe).  The main benefit of the US joining the war on the side of the British was to cut off the last uninterrupted supply line to Napoleon.  The question of a meaningful US military involvement was never considered as viable.

 

Note that in 1798, trade was still quite free, and so whaling was largely not interrupted.  Also note that the "press" was not a licence to strip a boat.  Impressment at sea could only take place if the navy replaced the men they took (and so they would often take experienced seamen and replace them with inferior landsmen).  As long as the boats followed certain rules, there was limited risk to whalers from the press gangs themselves.  While Captains would often take steps to protect their most experienced men from the press, overall numbers were not, in fact, a risk.

 

However, whale oil was already being replaced as a means to light and heat.  Wax candles had always been popular, but new processes made them longer lasting.  Gas lighting was already lighting foundries in London's Soho district, and was fast being introduced (in a limited way) in the capital.By 1799, the Gas Lighting and Coke Company were providing services to the industrialists of London.  So, as whale produce slowly declined from 1800-1812, gas was replacing it.  While some whale product was necessary, it should be noted that Britain's trade links with the orient (far east) and with Norway (until 1812) allowed a diverse sourcing of raw materials.  

 

One of the reasons Britain became the source of the industrial revolution was, in no small part, due to the diverse trade links afforded by a large empire.  This allowed multiple sources and the first modern price agreements that allowed Britain a competitive edge to "punch" above it's weight internationally.  That is also why a relatively unimportant country like the UK today, can still hold its own among superpowers, despite no longer being a member of that club.

 

West

[Westie]

**interesting side note

 

Perfume was not really a whaling side product, but a side product of whale VOMIT.  Ambergris is hardened, way whale vomit that floats on water.  it has a putrid smell, but as it ages and breaks down the smell becomes sweet.  It is still used in perfumes today, and if you find some on a beach, you can sell it for life changing amounts of money.  We're talking £20,000 for 300 grams from some Swiss perfumeries.

 

So if you are ever on a beach and the dog wont leave a particular stone alone..... pick it up.... it might be worth something

[sandrewn]

I hope I am not reading to much into this unexpected but most welcome posting. Yet I have this uncontrollable urge to break out sing ' 'Happy Days Are Here Again '. Thanks Mark.

[JimCarter]

I hope I am not reading to much into this unexpected but most welcome posting. Yet I have this uncontrollable urge to break out sing ' 'Happy Days Are Here Again '. Thanks Mark.

 

Mark has never cut us off completely when he is busy with "real life" issues.  He just seems to be more prudent with his time.  Of course this is not for me to say, I guess I just like overstepping and seem to enjoy putting my feet in my mouth.  

 

A wonderful chapter and I am a little concerned that we might be getting TOO close to tying up all the loose ends.  I fully assume that we will see another saga after this installment, but it might take a while to get started.  I am always a selfish SOB. 

[ricky]

Mark has never cut us off completely when he is busy with "real life" issues.  He just seems to be more prudent with his time.  Of course this is not for me to say, I guess I just like overstepping and seem to enjoy putting my feet in my mouth.  

 

A wonderful chapter and I am a little concerned that we might be getting TOO close to tying up all the loose ends.  I fully assume that we will see another saga after this installment, but it might take a while to get started.  I am always a selfish SOB. 

WAS?

Gosh, I checked the calendar, this is TWICE we agreed on something.

[ricky]

An AWESOME Chapter Mark. I was afraid the socialite heffer was going to try and put the moves on Lord Granger.

 

Now, has the King invited her to his chambers to break the news to her that her husband is a POW? I hope he has a royal guard nearby. You KNOW how she gets.

 

I hope he brings back some French perfume for her. And Perhaps a bottle or twenty of fine French Wine. He HAS to give a bottle to the King and the Prince of Wales. And perhaps he can bring back a guillotine for Fox and Mann?   

 

On a side note. My screen reader must be gay too. It refuses to say Stael. It spells it like its a bad word.   Gay minds think alike? OH, that's "GREAT" minds think alike isn't it. (Note the lack of a question mark there.)

[Daddydavek]

Granger still has no idea that the Bacchante is lost, that Maidstone is dead, that Bertie's letters are in Davey Jones locker or that the officers of the Santa Clarita, or that Jacobs and Winkler have all arrived safely back in London.  

 

Instead he is cooling his heels in Paris and got to meet several members of the directorate.  including the boorish  de La Révellière-Lépeaux whom he tried to charm and when that failed, instead baited him.   How aristocratic!  Good thing, the other members seem to have decided he will indeed be paroled.   Hopefully that will be sooner rather than later as M. Talleyrand seems to enjoy getting paid hosting the POW.  

 

Nice to see posting seems to be back on schedule.     

[Mark Arbour]

Granger still has no idea that the Bacchante is lost, that Maidstone is dead, that Bertie's letters are in Davey Jones locker or that the officers of the Santa Clarita, or that Jacobs and Winkler have all arrived safely back in London.  

 

Instead he is cooling his heels in Paris and got to meet several members of the directorate.  including the boorish  de La Révellière-Lépeaux whom he tried to charm and when that failed, instead baited him.   How aristocratic!  Good thing, the other members seem to have decided he will indeed be paroled.   Hopefully that will be sooner rather than later as M. Talleyrand seems to enjoy getting paid hosting the POW.  

 

Nice to see posting seems to be back on schedule.     

 

Well, I'm not exactly on schedule, but I'm doing my best.

[sandrewn]

Well, I'm not exactly on schedule, but I'm doing my best.

 

Coming from anyone else but you, that would be a worry.

 

With Granger's sense a fairness, I think he will set things right with regards to the sharing of prize money with Calvert. I am disappointed that Calvert could think otherwise. I wonder if Calvert will take what is left of Granger's crew and the officers onto his ship? I can't see Granger(being allowed) going to sea anytime soon.

 

I look forward to George finally getting home, yet dread the fast approach of this Odyssey coming to full circle. Thinking positive, there has to be an end, to allow for a new beginning.