9.11

[Kitt]

Westie has a point - I think Brad just wants to see Robbie's wishes carried out - even if the IRS made it difficult.  I don't see the Hayes family being something he would calculatedly try and control. In fact - if he would actually stop and think about how to control people around him he might actually have some success at it. We've seen that his knee jerk control methods sure don't work.

[PrivateTim]

 

 Right. I think Brad is basically planning on helping to lead the Hayes family while Gathan, the presumed heir, matures more. That Gathan assumes leadership of the trust when he turns 25 pretty much says it all.

 

I don't think most families have that dynastic outlook.

 

If there was in the Hayes Family, it seems to me Frank is the obvious titular head.

 

 

“Damn it!” Ethan said, and kicked the ground.  “Damn it!” he repeated.  He stormed around his goal, throwing what looked like a little temper tantrum.  At first I was pretty stunned by that, because it was pretty bad sportsmanship, but then I got annoyed.  Letting other people see your frustrations was not the Danfield way.

 

Its not just the "Danfield way" it is not the way I'd ever let one of my athletes to act for a variety of reasons.

 

1. It is bad sportsmanship. Athletics is supposed to teach you about winning and losing with grace so you can learn those lessons in life. Showing sportsmanship doesn't mean you like losing or playing badly, it should be a motivator, but internally.

 

2. I would NEVER let an opponent see how much I hated losing, it is like letting them see a weakness.

 

3. It displays a lack of discipline and self-control and a big part of the educational value of sports is to learn those two things.

[Sammy Blue]

I don't think most families have that dynastic outlook.

 

If there was in the Hayes Family, it seems to me Frank is the obvious titular head.

 

However that really is only titular, I don't remember Frank having any interest in the latest Hayes generation. (Or do I remember that wrong?) After 9/11 he is even less likely to think about looking out for them.  Well maybe he changes his mind and things he must take over Robbie's obsession with Claremont and his family, but I doubt that. I think if anyone will try to include the Hayes into the CAP-family or look out for them it will probably, as methodwriter suggested, be Brad (maybe Will). I'm not sure that is going to happen though.

[B1ue]

I don't think most families have that dynastic outlook.

 

If there was in the Hayes Family, it seems to me Frank is the obvious titular head.

 

A moment of cultural clash. I was momentarily confused when you mentioned Frank as the obvious head, because to my cultural programming a male would never be in the running.

 

I have to agree with everything you said about Ethan's tantrum. I was taken aback that he'd loose that much control, at his age, in front of his peers, over money. I'm curious what's going on there, and how tight his access to money has been in his life.

[Mark Arbour]

A moment of cultural clash. I was momentarily confused when you mentioned Frank as the obvious head, because to my cultural programming a male would never be in the running.

 

I have to agree with everything you said about Ethan's tantrum. I was taken aback that he'd loose that much control, at his age, in front of his peers, over money. I'm curious what's going on there, and how tight his access to money has been in his life.

 

Ethan isn't upset about the money, he's upset about giving up the goal.  

[methodwriter85]

    When I was in college and playing ultimate frisbee, we had a guy who would freak out every time the other team scored a point. In ultimate frisbee. In college. Sometimes good sportsmanship passes over people.

 

 

I can't see them not being a core family, since there are so many members that are integral to the story.  If for no other reason, Matt should make sure they're pivotal.

 

      But that's the thing- Matt's a Hayes in biology only; he's a Carrswold through and through. He doesn't even seem all that interested in getting to know his cousins and such. Matt's like Wade- his real family are the Schluters and the Cramptons.

 

      Robbie's gone. We've uncovered the reasons why the Hayes family became what they became, and gotten closure on that. Now there's hope for a better tomorrow. Brent, Trent, and Zeke barely seem consequential and are likely to go to Ohio State or open up a garage in Claremont, with it being unlikely that they'll interact much with the Cali contingent. (I could see Zeke at Oberlin, though.) I can't see Gathan getting another shot at narrator. There's Zach, who has potential but is clearly getting himself the hell out of Claremont. You basically have one bio Hayes, who isn't all that involved with his biological family, and another Hayes who's already left his hometown/family in the dust on his way to football glory.

 

Maybe if you suggest this once every other week, I'll actually do it. 

 

     Well, after Westie and others went on about how it's so unlikely that any of the Schluter boys would either go off to war or know people that did, I've been trying to think of plausible ways to introduce the Iraq War to CAP World. Perhaps not as a focus, but as something in the background. I realize I'm obsessed, and I think it's because of two things- when I was in 10th grade, I took part in this naive student walk-out where we walked out of class at 9:11 a.m. a couple of days before the war started, and in 12th grade, the school I ran track for was rocked by the death of an English teacher's son, Stephen McGowan, who was killed by a roadside bomb.

 

      Your heart is so open when you're a teenager. My teenaged heart ached for the losses, and I just cared. Probably more than a lot of my peers did, because they didn't have to worry about getting drafted. That the war took so many lives, and people seem largely indifferent to it (we were more concerned with Britney Spears' 48-hour marriage, and my state in general is very politically apathetic) still bothers me to this day. By 2007, every time I took part in an anti-Iraq War protest the turn-out was pathetic.

 

       I'm just hoping that event gets it due, and I know that if/when you cover it, the Iraq War and the 4,486 soldiers killed there will be respected and honored in a poignant way, like you did with the people who died in 9/11.

[Westie]

Well, after Westie and others went on about how it's so unlikely that any of the Schluter boys would either go off to war or know people that did, I've been trying to think of plausible ways to introduce the Iraq War to CAP World. Perhaps not as a focus, but as something in the background. I realize I'm obsessed, and I think it's because of two things- when I was in 10th grade, I took part in this naive student walk-out where we walked out of class at 9:11 a.m. a couple of days before the war started, and in 12th grade, the school I ran track for was rocked by the death of an English teacher's son, Stephen McGowan, who was killed by a roadside bomb.

The Iraq war had more than 24,000 dead and 117,000+ wounded on the allied side. According to estimates by the Watson Institute, the total cost to the US Economy was $1.3tn - with direct costs at $845bn to the US (with allies paying more on top).  You have a family that have a direct interest in the war on terror, and a highly pacifist professor emeritus as a key figure in the story.

 

On that basis, I would imagine that this war can bubble along in the background without a "good man going to war"...

 

Don't forget that Brad and Stef essentially own a defence contractor... I would think the tension on one hand of those two profiting from the war, and JP being against it and with a social conscience (and renewed commitment to Claremont) would bring enough drama as it stands..

[B1ue]

Don't forget that Brad and Stef essentially own a defence contractor... I would think the tension on one hand of those two profiting from the war, and JP being against it and with a social conscience (and renewed commitment to Claremont) would bring enough drama as it stands..

 

I disagree. Much (by no means all, but much) of the drama in the CAP series is class based. The clash between Brad and JP would be a completely upper class disagreement, and one spawned over values by people who are in no way actually threatened by warfare. Do you not remember why JP is so antiwar? He lost his first great love and two of his cousins to the military. For him, it's deeply personal, but no one else has that level of awareness of the human cost of war, except Stefen.

 

Philosophers arguing about the value of human death while sending others to do the dying is highly featured in several nauseating novels I had to force myself to read during school. I would hate for this series to become another.

[methodwriter85]

 

Don't forget that Brad and Stef essentially own a defence contractor... I would think the tension on one hand of those two profiting from the war, and JP being against it and with a social conscience (and renewed commitment to Claremont) would bring enough drama as it stands..

    And my argument is that the renewed commitment to Claremont makes it much more likely that characters, no matter how background they are, are very likely to go off. Claremont is a town that every time there's been a war has sent off a good portion of their youth, and with military history going back, you're much more likely to see future generations go.

 

Do you not remember why JP is so antiwar? He lost his first great love and two of his cousins to the military. For him, it's deeply personal, but no one else has that level of awareness of the human cost of war, except Stefen.

 

Philosophers arguing about the value of human death while sending others to do the dying is highly featured in several nauseating novels I had to force myself to read during school. I would hate for this series to become another.

 

 

       JP also lost a friend named Fritz, a cute German-American stocky type who killed himself after getting castrated by a bomb.

 

       I do think that given the general CAP modus operandi, that's not going to happen. We lost someone to 9.11. KristIn almost died on the Concorde jet crash. Matt knew Matthew Shepherd. Marcel and JP were in Russia for the fall of communism. Our key players were witnesses to the Paris student riots of 1968, and they met JFK and Jackie O. I do think that the War On Terror/The Iraq War has to be one of the most visible, long-term fall-out effects from 9/11, and I figure at least some personal stakes are going to be brought into it as a result.

 

     The history has taken a bit of a backseat to the character's stories, but there's so much about the 2000's decade that was crazy and shocking, and it's going to provide so much great fodder for Mark. As we've already seen with 9.11.

Edited November 15, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Kitt]

There are all sorts of 911 related conflict Mark can employ without sending someone to war.  

 

Maybe its a function of how close I live to NYC and it may not have been as tense in say Iowa or somewhere like that, but for a very long time my Muslim neighbors couldn't sneeze without someone reporting them to the police or a tip hotline. The most notable thing about that is that the neighbor in question was even more outraged about the act of terrorism in the name of his religion than most of the neighborhood.

[B1ue]

Jeremy and I have pointed that out, and also that one didn't even need to be Muslim to have been affected by that, just merely be the correct shade of brown. We also pointed out that while Darius lives in California, and it simply was not as bad in California as it would have been in NYC, he would get comments and face closed doors that he wouldn't have months earlier.

 

There was a certain resistance to the idea that overt racial profiling like that actually happened. A couple people implied we were lying.

[Mark Arbour]

There was a certain resistance to the idea that overt racial profiling like that actually happened. A couple people implied we were lying.

 

I think they just thought you were being bitchy. 

 

But to the topic at hand, I haven't really figured out what I'm going to do with this upcoming war.  I think some things are terribly obvious.  That JP will oppose it with every fiber in his body is a given, not just because of his past, but because even at the time, it was possible to discern that going into Iraq was sheer folly.  I think that it's also an interesting twist that Stef and Brad are very tied up with a defense contractor, and that certainly presents some interesting storylines.  And it is also quite probable that we will have interaction with men and women who go off to fight the war, whether they're major or minor characters, or new people we meet.  I'm actually pretty happy with the set up going into this next CAP decade. 

[Westie]

And my argument is that the renewed commitment to Claremont makes it much more likely that characters, no matter how background they are, are very likely to go off. Claremont is a town that every time there's been a war has sent off a good portion of their youth, and with military history going back, you're much more likely to see future generations go.

Of course they will know SOMEONE who will go to the war. What you actually keep harping on about is a HAYES going to war, or one of the core characters, which we are saying is not necessarily a given. Moreover, I think you have a tendency to focus on numbers and mathematics, and forget that emotions are involved. You did this when you said that Matt's loss was less because he still had his adopted father. You say that men will go to war because they have in the past and because of some statistics, without accounting for the particular characters' thoughts, feelings and ideals and those that influence them.

 

Statistics are useful for a balanced sample - but since when was this particular character set a balanced sample?  You have a group of people who are largely liberal, tolerant, openly (or semi openly) homosexual men.  Show me solid, reliable statistics proving that there was a huge increase in enlistments among liberal, tolerant, openly homosexual men and I will not only shut the hell up, but I will wire you my next month's salary.

[rjo]

Westie is right. Why do people go to war? Some do it for a job, a way of going to school later in life. Some do it because they feel compelled to do it. Of the charactors I see Darius doing that. Some do it for love of country. As in the Civil War or World War II. Aaron Hayes was one of those. I honestly don't see Will going to war. This war was different because of a lack of the Draft. Most of the burdon of the war is carried by a very few unlike Vietham. As JP said, " War is so easy to get into and hard to get out of". Good luck Mark, this should be an interesting tension. Can you imagine Brad dealing with a son at War. Teaching Will to drive will be nothing compared to that. Before Robbie's will I could see Brent or Trent going off to war. I'm not sure of that now.

Edited November 16, 2013 by rjo

[PrivateTim]

The Iraq war had more than 24,000 dead and 117,000+ wounded on the allied side. According to estimates by the Watson Institute, the total cost to the US Economy was $1.3tn - with direct costs at $845bn to the US (with allies paying more on top).  You have a family that have a direct interest in the war on terror, and a highly pacifist professor emeritus as a key figure in the story.

 

On that basis, I would imagine that this war can bubble along in the background without a "good man going to war"...

 

Your numbers are very misleading, of the 24, 219 dead on the "allied side", only 4,805 were the foreign coalition, and most of those were U.S. troops. The huge majority, 16,000 plus are the Iraqi Security Force that came into being after the actual combat war (overthrow of Saddam) ended and the battle for post war power began.

 

JP is not a professor emeritus is he? Isn't he still actively teaching even if he is no longer department chair?

 

In any case, Iraq did not come up until 2003, it was Afghanistan that was the immediate focus in 2001 with the invasion starting three weeks after 9-11 and it was then that passions were running high.

 

Maybe if the kid that Darius gave up his appointment for died in combat, Darius would feel guilty that it should have been him and then he goes to OCS.

[PrivateTim]

Jeremy and I have pointed that out, and also that one didn't even need to be Muslim to have been affected by that, just merely be the correct shade of brown. We also pointed out that while Darius lives in California, and it simply was not as bad in California as it would have been in NYC, he would get comments and face closed doors that he wouldn't have months earlier.

 

There was a certain resistance to the idea that overt racial profiling like that actually happened. A couple people implied we were lying.

 

Things would be very different for Darius for a variety of reasons.

 

1) He is rich.

2) He is only half Persian and is native born so he doesn't talk funny or dress funny and his looks are exotic, not easily pinned as "A-Rab" (and yes, Persians ain't A-Rabs)

3) He is rich.

4) Los Angeles, especially West LA and UCLA/USC has a huge Persian population that moved here when the Shah fell in '78-'79 so the area is full of guys who looked like him, in his age range, all native born Angelenos and I never heard of a single violent act in Los Angeles in the immediate post 9-11 period. In fact I think there were surprisingly few given the magnitude of the act.

5) He is rich and good looking.

 

I am curious where you think Darius would get comments or have doors closed to him especially in L.A.?

[Westie]

Your numbers are very misleading, of the 24, 219 dead on the "allied side", only 4,805 were the foreign coalition, and most of those were U.S. troops. The huge majority, 16,000 plus are the Iraqi Security Force that came into being after the actual combat war (overthrow of Saddam) ended and the battle for post war power began.

 

JP is not a professor emeritus is he? Isn't he still actively teaching even if he is no longer department chair?

 

In any case, Iraq did not come up until 2003, it was Afghanistan that was the immediate focus in 2001 with the invasion starting three weeks after 9-11 and it was then that passions were running high.

 

Maybe if the kid that Darius gave up his appointment for died in combat, Darius would feel guilty that it should have been him and then he goes to OCS.

 

Tim,  my numbers aren't misleading for the point I was making.  I don't care whether the dead were allies or american, or who spent what.  The point I was making is that with SO MANY deaths and SO MUCH money being spent, this war becomes very real very quickly without necessarily needing to involve one of our particular characters.

 

And yes, I know Iraq was in 2003 - but you was responding to Jeremy's comments which WERE about Iraq, even if we know Afghanistan comes first.

[B1ue]

Things would be very different for Darius for a variety of reasons.

 

1) He is rich.

2) He is only half Persian and is native born so he doesn't talk funny or dress funny and his looks are exotic, not easily pinned as "A-Rab" (and yes, Persians ain't A-Rabs)

3) He is rich.

4) Los Angeles, especially West LA and UCLA/USC has a huge Persian population that moved here when the Shah fell in '78-'79 so the area is full of guys who looked like him, in his age range, all native born Angelenos and I never heard of a single violent act in Los Angeles in the immediate post 9-11 period. In fact I think there were surprisingly few given the magnitude of the act.

5) He is rich and good looking.

 

I am curious where you think Darius would get comments or have doors closed to him especially in L.A.?

I really, really don't want to redo this conversation over and over, because you are one that does not seem to be listening, but okay, one last time.

 

Exactly how many Arabic cultural cues do you imagine I have? I am not half Persian. I am not Persian at all, not any Middle-Eastern nationality at all, in fact. And yet, that is what I consistently am seen as, by many people of different socioeconimc groups, for most of my life, in part because I am so white-washed that I project no cultural cues, which precludes me from being seen as Mexican. This interpretation really picked up in the aftermath of 9-11, although that's possibly because I only then started to see the effects of that interpretation. That's people started wondering *why* I didn't go to the local born-again church that most of my classmates attended. That's when my tips at work suddenly started vanishing, and when people started asking for a different server in the first place. That's when my uncle was asked how he could trust my "towelhead" father. That was when opposing teams started asked my teammates how they could stand to have me playing (and, mind, I had played against and with some of those kids for a seven years). Even now, I expect to be pulled out of line at airport security, because I fit the profile of young, brown, male, and traveling alone.

 

It's certainly not the first time in my life I'd dealt with something like this, but before I had usually at least attributed it to my own race. This wasn't even my fight, but I was stuck in it anyways.

[methodwriter85]

 

Even now, I expect to be pulled out of line at airport security, because I fit the profile of young, brown, male, and traveling alone.

 

   Indian-American Mindy Khaling made a joke about profiling on her sitcom, The Mindy Khaling Project, where she's in romantic comedy mode and wondering if she's going to meet the man she's destined to be with on the flight, and then the flight attendant takes a picture of her because she used the red-code term "flight of destiny."

 

 

I'm actually pretty happy with the set up going into this next CAP decade.

 

    You got interesting things going on with the older generation, as well as the youth generation. You've got Will, a Tonto-like guy likely to become an agitator for change in a decade where the fight for marriage equality is going to heat up, JJ a guy trying to get ahead in a sport that demands a pristine image, Gathan a guy who wants to get into politics in a decade where moderate Bill Clinton-era politics gives way to Blue State/Red State mentalities, and Zach, a closeted guy clearly aiming himself towards getting far in a sport where homosexuality isn't all that acceptable.

 

     And I'm assuming that Marie is meant to become the only defined archtype for the decade, the Hipster. I mean, come on, she's a rich girl interested in edgy, alternative fashion growing up in the Bay Area. She's destined to help gentrify the Mission Area in the City. I also hope we get to see John's reaction to the Duke Lacrosse case- I'm not sure I can see John actually at Duke...if he wants to follow Daddy in the medical career and he's serious about playing college level lacrosse, I could see Johns Hopkins.

 

 

Maybe if the kid that Darius gave up his appointment for died in combat, Darius would feel guilty that it should have been him and then he goes to OCS.

    

     That would actually be really interesting, but why would someone who went to the Navy Academy end up in Afghanistan or Iraq? I thought that branch of the military didn't fight in the war.

Edited November 17, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Kitt]

Ummm, if naval personnel didn't participate in the war, who flew all those carrier based jet bombing missions? I was under the impression that we have had a heavy navy presence in the gulf for quite some time. You hear much more about naval aviators than you do about actual air force. I am admittedly not much on military tactics, but wouldn't MOST of the air based bombing and reconnaissance have been provided by the navy? They could launch and recover from a carrier in the gulf where as air force would have had to originated at a land based airfield adding many miles to the trips.  Ok guys - one of you has to be up on this stuff! Am I mistaken?

[Gene Splicer PHD]

You're right, Kitt - the US has maintained at least two carrier groups in the region since October, 2001. Lots and lots of carrier based bombings, boat and ship interceptions, and humanitarian aid. The Navy has played a central role in the war.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Enduring_Freedom

Edited November 17, 2013 by Gene Splicer PHD

[methodwriter85]

   Thanks for the correction. Hmm, now I really like Private Tim's idea.

Edited November 17, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

I really, really don't want to redo this conversation over and over, because you are one that does not seem to be listening, but okay, one last time.

 

Exactly how many Arabic cultural cues do you imagine I have?

 

But what you are talking about is anecdotal, your personal experience, not some big, generalized effect that was happening in "Los Angeles".

 

There was no great wave of anti-brown person discrimination in a city with a white (not Hispanic or Latino) population of less than 30% and certainly not in the circles that Darius travels in. Could a Darius get an odd comment from an individual, sure, but so could anyone for any reason. There were not reports of widespread (key word, 'widespread') anti-Islam incidents in So Cal. Even nationwide the anti-Islam "hate crimes" did spike, but even spiking post 9-11 they were still less than half of the anti-Semitic incidents.

 

That would actually be really interesting, but why would someone who went to the Navy Academy end up in Afghanistan or Iraq? I thought that branch of the military didn't fight in the war.

 

Uh....  uh.....  where do you think Marine Corps officers come from?

 

There are also SEAL teams in Afghanistan & Iraq constantly.

 

And a large number of Navy helicopters that have gone down.

[methodwriter85]

 

But what you are talking about is anecdotal, your personal experience, not some big, generalized effect that was happening in "Los Angeles".

 

There was no great wave of anti-brown person discrimination in a city with a white (not Hispanic or Latino) population of less than 30% and certainly not in the circles that Darius travels in.

 

    Do you realize what a bad taste it leaves in people's mouths when you tell someone that their experience is a basically meaningless, isolated incident not indicative of something larger at work, and that you as a white person know everything there is to know about being brown in Southern California? Are you listening to yourself? Because that's basically what you are saying here. I don't know what it's like to be a bisexual white affluent lawyer guy from California. Why do you think it's okay for you to tell someone who has walked in the shoes of being "clocked" as Middle Eastern that you know all about what that's like you clearly haven't?

 

    Subtle racism is subtle because it's not KKK marches, lynches, and hate graffiti. You can't take someone to court for asking for another server, or making comments about towelheads, or someone telling you that they feel uncomfortable being around you because of 9/11. That's where you almost have to rely on anecdotal evidence, because you don't have the reported crime statistics and the like to properly analyze how often (or not) subtle racism was directed towards people of Middle-Eastern descent.

 

    Was it the Rodney King riots or the Japanese internment? No, but to say that rich Los Angeles mid-Eastern people never got any rude comments in the manly daily interactions they've had, when you cannot possibly have been with every single Persian-looking person at every single moment, just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

    And I'm sorry, but the racist Twitter backlash against the current Miss America does speak to the idea that prejudice based on 9/11 fears have lingered on even a decade later. She's literally Miss America, beautiful, educated, and likely affluent, and she's being called a terrorist. Do you honestly think that because Darius is rich and beautiful  and living in a big city that he's not going to encounter racism? His own uncle called him a "half n-word." Every single time someone has met Darius, they've commented on him being "exotic", i.e. not-white, so he's not a Wentworth Miller type that passes as white. I highly doubt that Nick's comment is the only racist comment that has ever been made about Darius. We've only seen a very miniscule amount of Darius's life, and only when he's around family, and we've never seen his thoughts and how he feels when someone mentions how exotic he is.

   

 

Uh....  uh.....  where do you think Marine Corps officers come from?

 

There are also SEAL teams in Afghanistan & Iraq constantly.

 

And a large number of Navy helicopters that have gone down.

 

 I was already corrected on my misconception, thank you.

Edited November 18, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

    I was already corrected on my misconception, thank you.

 

Yes, but they mentioned the Navy and Naval Aviators. No one mentioned the USMC or SEALs.

Edited November 18, 2013 by PrivateTim