9.11

[B1ue]

Yes, but they mentioned the Navy and Naval Aviators. No one mentioned the USMC or SEALs.

If it makes you feel better, I was going to.

 

All five branches of the armed services, including the Coast Guard, participated in Iraq. I am less certain about Afghanistan, but based on each service's mission parameters, probably the same is true for that conflict. I suppose I could just look it up, but meh.

 

My sister commented that the Air Force personnel were too pretty

 

But what you are talking about is anecdotal, your personal experience, not some big, generalized effect that was happening in "Los Angeles".

 

There was no great wave of anti-brown person discrimination in a city with a white (not Hispanic or Latino) population of less than 30% and certainly not in the circles that Darius travels in. Could a Darius get an odd comment from an individual, sure, but so could anyone for any reason. There were not reports of widespread (key word, 'widespread') anti-Islam incidents in So Cal. Even nationwide the anti-Islam "hate crimes" did spike, but even spiking post 9-11 they were still less than half of the anti-Semitic incidents.

Darius lives in Malibu, right, not Los Angeles? in 2010, Malibu is the city with the single-highest White population density in LA county, and in 2000 the percentage was even higher.

 

I am not sure what you're trying to say here. Just in case, I'll try to clarify what exactly I think he'll encounter. I doubt he'll get beaten up, nor do I think his intimates or acquaintances will become suddenly uncomfortable. Some did for me, but Darius would probably be luckier. I do think he'll get comments. I do think someone, quite possibly if he does seek a commission somewhere down the road, even more likely if someone at, say, the CIA, connects him with Brad's defense contract connections, will check to make sure he's had no contact with his biological father since conception. I don't think those questions will come directly to him, since even the most cursory check should give a satisfactory answer, but he may find out the check had been run. I do think that someone who doesn't know who Robbie was or what he looked like (less likely in UCLA than anywhere else, but still possible) will take Darius's face, combine it with the statement that his father died during the attack, and put two and two together to come up with seven. Which would be annoying.

[Mark Arbour]

    Do you realize what a bad taste it leaves in people's mouths when you tell someone that their experience is a basically meaningless, isolated incident not indicative of something larger at work....

 

I don't disagree with your overall points, but I do think that this is a big problem in general:  letting anecdotal evidence stand as the norm.  And I'm not talking about this issue (and I'm sure as hell not disputing what B1ue is talking about), but taking personal experiences and generalizing them is part of what's wrong with our society.  There's a reason for statistics, and for adequate sample sizes. 

[B1ue]

I don't disagree with your overall points, but I do think that this is a big problem in general:  letting anecdotal evidence stand as the norm.  And I'm not talking about this issue (and I'm sure as hell not disputing what B1ue is talking about), but taking personal experiences and generalizing them is part of what's wrong with our society.  There's a reason for statistics, and for adequate sample sizes. 

Which is a good point, as is Tim's that there wasn't a huge increase in anti-Muslim hate crimes. I will add that this isn't something that just happened to me, however. I did describe an incident that happened to my father, but there were a couple thrown my sister's way, and many of my cousins and acquaintances reported similar incidents. Not all; some of my family does strongly cue as Hispanic.

 

I don't really think Darius will though. He's probably the correct color, but his facial structure, mannerisms, and cadence would be off. Hell, even his name would contribute to an overall assumption. The behavior and speaking parts can be picked up, relatively easily in his case since he speaks Spanish, and none of it individually would raise an eyebrow, but altogether, I don't think Hispanic or Filipino would be either of the first assumptions.

[methodwriter85]

I don't disagree with your overall points, but I do think that this is a big problem in general:  letting anecdotal evidence stand as the norm.  And I'm not talking about this issue (and I'm sure as hell not disputing what B1ue is talking about), but taking personal experiences and generalizing them is part of what's wrong with our society.  There's a reason for statistics, and for adequate sample sizes. 

 

    Right, but like I said, the problem with doing an empirical study of non-violent and non-blatant racism is that you're not going to have police reports or discriminatory memos to work with. The KKK stuff is easy to sport, and easy to analyze- you can get estimates of KKK members in a given area and try to see if you can correspond them to reports of hate crimes in that target area. Or you could look at property records/real estate records of a realtor company, and try and analyze if they used red-line policies. In this case, the kind of racism employed is subtle- no one's going to report it to the police, and turn it into a manner of record.

 

    Although interestingly enough, Twitter is getting analyzed in terms of gauging hate speech. It's an interesting method. Humboldt State University released what they term as a Hate Map of the United States.

Edited November 18, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

    Right, but like I said, the problem with doing an empirical study of non-violent and non-blatant racism is that you're not going to have police reports or discriminatory memos to work with. The KKK stuff is easy to sport, and easy to analyze- you can get estimates of KKK members in a given area and try to see if you can correspond them to reports of hate crimes in that target area. Or you could look at property records/real estate records of a realtor company, and try and analyze if they used red-line policies. In this case, the kind of racism employed is subtle- no one's going to report it to the police, and turn it into a manner of record, if someone tells

 

    Although interestingly enough, Twitter is getting analyzed in terms of gauging hate speech. It's an interesting method. Humboldt State University released what they term as a Hate Map of the United States.

 

That's a fascinating map.  Based on the areas around me that are shaded, it seems pretty realistic.  They're mostly country/redneck communities.

[methodwriter85]

 

That's a fascinating map.  Based on the areas around me that are shaded, it seems pretty realistic.  They're mostly country/redneck communities.

 

    Right. Western Pennsylvania is shaded as well, which jibes with my own experience. It was an eye-opening experience to go from an area where my high school principal was an open lesbian and the bulk of gay people I knew were open as teenagers, to meeting and learning people who've actually been gaybashed

[Daddydavek]

    Right, but like I said, the problem with doing an empirical study of non-violent and non-blatant racism is that you're not going to have police reports or discriminatory memos to work with. The KKK stuff is easy to sport, and easy to analyze- you can get estimates of KKK members in a given area and try to see if you can correspond them to reports of hate crimes in that target area. Or you could look at property records/real estate records of a realtor company, and try and analyze if they used red-line policies. In this case, the kind of racism employed is subtle- no one's going to report it to the police, and turn it into a manner of record.

 

    Although interestingly enough, Twitter is getting analyzed in terms of gauging hate speech. It's an interesting method. Humboldt State University released what they term as a Hate Map of the United States.

 

I thought the map was an eye opener.  I liked the way you could zoom into areas for each of the basic groups and then for the subgroup terms as well.   There is a lot of prejudice in the US and anyone who thinks otherwise has their head up....ehhh,  I mean in the sand.  

[PrivateTim]

That's a fascinating map.  Based on the areas around me that are shaded, it seems pretty realistic.  They're mostly country/redneck communities.

 

Should you be writing and posting stories to amuse me and not dilly dalling, shilly shalling around forums?? 

[methodwriter85]

   Hey, Mark, as an aside, I watched former Senator Jeff Smith (D-Mo) on CNN or something. He was talking about how he, as an avid basketball player, was told that he needed to set up soccer games so that the white people in his district could relate to him. Pretty crazy, but yeah- you aren't kidding about the racism of that area.

 

    Have you ever met the guy? He used to teach in St. Louis. Dude came off gay as fuck, although I wik'd him and he's apparently married to a woman and has a son. My first impression watching him was that he and other guest Josh Barro were a couple. LOL.

 

    More on the map, there's some shading of the racism around the Elkton, MD area, which makes sense- in the 1980's and 1990's, the area was a hotbed for the KKK. I remember finding a swatiska written on the bathroom stall of the libRary there when I was 11. It figures there would be some tinges of it.

 

    And there's very little homophobic shading in Delaware. Go, us!

Edited November 19, 2013 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Random question, but what kind of law does Ace practice? In my mind, I imagine Robbie nagging him over some finer point on a contract that he doesn't 100% trust Greg's old lawyer on, and Ace exasperatingly telling him, "I specialize in tax law, Robbie. Go bug your husband for a lawyer." But I was wondering if it has ever come up what he actually does.

[Mark Arbour]

Should you be writing and posting stories to amuse me and not dilly dalling, shilly shalling around forums?? 

 

As a matter of fact I have been busy.  There are two chapters of 9-11 in various stages of editing and betaing.  You're not easy to amuse. 

 

Random question, but what kind of law does Ace practice? In my mind, I imagine Robbie nagging him over some finer point on a contract that he doesn't 100% trust Greg's old lawyer on, and Ace exasperatingly telling him, "I specialize in tax law, Robbie. Go bug your husband for a lawyer." But I was wondering if it has ever come up what he actually does.

 

I don't think I ever clarified that.  He'll probably pop up with a magic specialty when I really need it.    Meanwhile, he's running a winery (I almost typed that as whinery).

[methodwriter85]

Random question, but what kind of law does Ace practice? In my mind, I imagine Robbie nagging him over some finer point on a contract that he doesn't 100% trust Greg's old lawyer on, and Ace exasperatingly telling him, "I specialize in tax law, Robbie. Go bug your husband for a lawyer." But I was wondering if it has ever come up what he actually does.

 

       I don't think Ace has ever been important enough for Mark to give him a specific area of law, as opposed to Jack, who we've seen work as an oncology surgeon as well as pull strings at the hospital where JP had his surgery and JJ and Marie were put on a 72-hour hold at. (I'm guessing it's Stanford Medical?) He could have made Ace a family law attorney in 1995 for If It Fits for Brad and Robbie's custody fight, but we didn't have a trial for that.

 

      Claire's a fund-raiser type socialite, right? I can totally see a bitchy mother/daughter moment where Marie tells Claire that she wants to be more than just another bored rich housewife like her. I see a "generation skip theme" here- Isidore was the trailblazer, who ran a top construction company in the 1970's and 1980's, Claire is the traditional socialite, and Marie will also be a trailblazer. I like how that worked out. Too bad mother/daughter moments aren't really a theme here.

Edited November 19, 2013 by methodwriter85

[TheStoryReader]

Regarding troops serving over seas, not everyone in an Army or USMC unit is in the Army or Marine corps.  There is an augmentation program which brings members from other services (e.g. the Navy and Air Force) to full in the empty spots.  In addition, the Air Force runs it's own convoys, and thus have suffered a very high number of casualties as a result of ambush/IED attacks.  Some info on the augmentation program:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_augmentee


 

[Sammy Blue]

       He could have made Ace a family law attorney in 1995 for If It Fits for Brad and Robbie's custody fight, but we didn't have a trial for that.

 

    Claire's a fund-raiser type socialite, right? I can totally see a bitchy mother/daughter moment where Marie tells Claire that she wants to be more than just another bored rich housewife like her. I see a "generation skip theme" here- Isidore was the trailblazer, who ran a top construction company in the 1970's and 1980's, Claire is the traditional socialite, and Marie will also be a trailblazer. I like how that worked out. Too bad mother/daughter moments aren't really a theme here.

 

That would have added some twist to the whole emancipation thing with Will, too. Ace would probably have been on Brad's side, I guess. That would have given some additional explosive material for Escorial dinners and there could have been more light shed on Brad's struggle and his decision to let Will go in the end.

 

But well, that can't be changed anymore now, besides it should tell us that he does not do anything with family law.

 

Claire and Marie have both been fairly important in the past books. Even don't think we will ever have a female narrator (other than for very short things, like in 9/11), I can very well imagine this being a side issue for whoever is narrator and staying at Escorial. Especially if it's Will, the drama magnet.

[mmike1969]

I can picture ACE as one of those lawyers having late night TV commercials asking viewers if they had been injured or in an accident.

[Henson]

Regarding naval personnel in Afganistan and Iraq, google "individual augmentee."

 

Imagine my surprise when my ex, a navy supply guy, was handed a bunch of army uniforms and sent to a FOB in BFE for a year. There's a former submariner in my office with PTSD from his time in Iraq, and another former naval intel guy facing his 13th back surgery from wandering the hills of Afghanistan. The US Navy was most certainly involved.

[methodwriter85]

 

Imagine my surprise when my ex, a navy supply guy, was handed a bunch of army uniforms and sent to a FOB in BFE for a year. There's a former submariner in my office with PTSD from his time in Iraq, and another former naval intel guy facing his 13th back surgery from wandering the hills of Afghanistan. The US Navy was most certainly involved.

 

    Interesting insight here. I'm fascinated by  tales of PSTD from war. I'll never forget this moment from an episode of True Life that I watched, where this guy is trying to show his girlfriend pictures from Iraq, and she clearly gets uncomfortable and he apologizes. I felt really bad for him- he was this big, buff, good-looking handsome guy that 20-year old Me would have envied, and he's clearly so fucked up on the inside, but he can't show that to his girlfriend because she doesn't understand. (And didn't seem to want to.)

 

     I had this acquaintance from high school, Matt. Matt was Mr. Jokester in high school, willing to do anything for a laugh. He went off to Iraq, while the physical damage was minimal- Matt lost a pinky- clearly the war had changed him. I'll never forget running into him at a bar in 2008 or 2009. His eyes were dead. Dead. This was a guy that LIVED to make make people laugh and always had an outrageous comment up his sleeve to make people laugh and that was gone. Matt ran into some addiction issues but seems to have turned his life around, which I'm glad about.

 

 

I can picture ACE as one of those lawyers having late night TV commercials asking viewers if they had been injured or in an accident.

 

    Oh, totally. He's either that, or a corporate attorney- something that makes lot of money without having much in terms of actual ethics.

Edited November 20, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

Here was my review of the last chapter.....  so go read the chapter before you read this....

 

A most brilliant chapter.

The characters are so real, vibrant and deep. Zach is no longer a one dimensional douche, he is a normal, confused, scared, belligerent, horny teen. He sees Gathan as the manipulator, so now we have doubts about Gathan's purity.

Gathan's comebacks now we doubt if Zach was sincere, but not too much because Will picked up on the clues in Zach's body language and moist eyes as he was leaving. So it seems maybe Zach is just an ordinary guy who wants to be loved and accepted, but doesn't really know how to properly express himself given the time and culture he grew up in.

I loved the cute little scene with John and JJ, but I wish JJ had explained to John what was going on. I assume John and Marie don't know JJ was molested, just Jack and Claire. It would be nice to see John and JJ get closer and John be someone who is there for JJ because he wants to be.

Looks like Brad and Stef are moving to make a killing in the aftermath of 9-11. It isn't predatory, its business. I know of a couple of billion dollar companies that were bought essentially pennies on the dollar, but the thousands of the employees of those companies didn't care that the investors lost their shirts or that their stock options were now worth zilch when they had been millionaires on paper a year earlier, they were grateful to have jobs and that the companies lived on.

[B1ue]

I'm not certain about your interpretation of Zach. We've been inside the dark place that is Gathan's mind, and he genuinely believes the lines he was spouting. Also, I have to say, I disliked Zach's evaluation of his cousins and siblings. I'm sure it was honest, but it's not exactly the way a generous or kind person would think.

 

I also keep in mind that Zach flat out stated he would try to seduce Robbie, although it seems he never followed through on it. Perhaps he set is sights on a more reasonable, longer term target? Of course, I took his comment with a grain of salt to begin with; it was precisely calculated to drive Gathan out of his gourd. However, it's as good an indication of how he thinks, if not necessarily what he has the wherewithal to actually pull off. Mind, that doesn't preclude him having an emotional bond with Will. It is perfectly possible for him to have genuine feelings for Will, and be attempting to make a mark out of the kid at the same time. Lord knows I've done the same.

 

I hope he does go to Hawaii. think it'll be interesting to see how he handles Kai.

 

I was surprised at JJ's dislike of Zach. I would have thought that anyone that disliked Gathan as much as Zach clearly does would be alright by JJ. But, then, anyone that wants to sleep with Will tends to annoy him, doesn't it? And John dislikes Zach, so he could have adopted the same stance in solidarity. In the same vein, I wonder what kept Darius quiet. I'm certain he had an opinion, but what was it? Perhaps to ship the entire Hayes family off to Ohio and require them to stay within that state's borders?

[Mark Arbour]

Here was my review of the last chapter.....  so go read the chapter before you read this....

 

A most brilliant chapter.

 

The characters are so real, vibrant and deep. Zach is no longer a one dimensional douche, he is a normal, confused, scared, belligerent, horny teen. He sees Gathan as the manipulator, so now we have doubts about Gathan's purity.

 

Gathan's comebacks now we doubt if Zach was sincere, but not too much because Will picked up on the clues in Zach's body language and moist eyes as he was leaving. So it seems maybe Zach is just an ordinary guy who wants to be loved and accepted, but doesn't really know how to properly express himself given the time and culture he grew up in.

 

I loved the cute little scene with John and JJ, but I wish JJ had explained to John what was going on. I assume John and Marie don't know JJ was molested, just Jack and Claire. It would be nice to see John and JJ get closer and John be someone who is there for JJ because he wants to be.

 

Looks like Brad and Stef are moving to make a killing in the aftermath of 9-11. It isn't predatory, its business. I know of a couple of billion dollar companies that were bought essentially pennies on the dollar, but the thousands of the employees of those companies didn't care that the investors lost their shirts or that their stock options were now worth zilch when they had been millionaires on paper a year earlier, they were grateful to have jobs and that the companies lived on.

 

Since you posted your review here, I'll post my reply: 

 

Thanks so much for the review!  I guess this means I amused you like I was supposed to.  J

The thing about Zach is that we don’t know how much of his ‘changes’ is really a change, since we’ve only seen him from Gathan and Will’s perspective, when Will hated him.  We also don’t know how much of any change is due to the trauma of 9-11 (that general feel good effect), or if in fact much of the problems Zach seems to have stem from a really intense sibling rivalry with Gathan.  Any of those things is plausible.

 

John and Marie don’t know about JJ, so John wouldn’t have completely understood why JJ acted the way he did, but based on the nightmare they’ve just been through, I’m betting John was willing to write it off as a weird aberration. 

 

And finally, the thing about business deals like this is that Brad and Stef are potentially making money off of those people who ignored all the financial warning signs in 1999-2000, and are still ignoring them, riding the wave all the way to the bottom.  That doesn’t make them predatory, it means the other people were either unlucky or stupid.

[Mark Arbour]

I'm not certain about your interpretation of Zach. We've been inside the dark place that is Gathan's mind, and he genuinely believes the lines he was spouting. Also, I have to say, I disliked Zach's evaluation of his cousins and siblings. I'm sure it was honest, but it's not exactly the way a generous or kind person would think.

 

 

Zach may be reformed from being a total asshole, but I don't think that he's even close to being generous or kind.  I think with him, the best we can hope for if his interests diverge from the guy (or girl) he's into, is a non-malicious response.

 

I also keep in mind that Zach flat out stated he would try to seduce Robbie, although it seems he never followed through on it. Perhaps he set is sights on a more reasonable, longer term target? Of course, I took his comment with a grain of salt to begin with; it was precisely calculated to drive Gathan out of his gourd. However, it's as good an indication of how he thinks, if not necessarily what he has the wherewithal to actually pull off. Mind, that doesn't preclude him having an emotional bond with Will. It is perfectly possible for him to have genuine feelings for Will, and be attempting to make a mark out of the kid at the same time. Lord knows I've done the same.

 

 

 

That's a good point, but I think that you're more correct to write Zach's bluster off as bravado to piss Gathan off.  On the other hand, it's entirely possible that he would have slept with Robbie (or Brad, or Stef, or anyone) if it would have furthered whatever goal he was working on.  I think that he's very self-absorbed, so when his interests and someone else's collide, the other person is going to lose.  Will seems to have him figured out to the point that he's able to insulate himself from that.

 

I hope he does go to Hawaii. think it'll be interesting to see how he handles Kai.

 

 

Which he?

 

 

I was surprised at JJ's dislike of Zach. I would have thought that anyone that disliked Gathan as much as Zach clearly does would be alright by JJ. But, then, anyone that wants to sleep with Will tends to annoy him, doesn't it? And John dislikes Zach, so he could have adopted the same stance in solidarity.

 

 

Your last two points are excellent, and hilarious.  I think that JJ is too prim and proper for Zach's slutty ways, so he finds that annoying.   And JJ's a bit of a snob, so he's looking at this dude from the Midwest, with his Ohio twang and his tats, and thinking that he's bumped into the 2001 version of a "Duck Dynasty" character.

 

In the same vein, I wonder what kept Darius quiet. I'm certain he had an opinion, but what was it? Perhaps to ship the entire Hayes family off to Ohio and require them to stay within that state's borders?

 

 

Again, loved your last thoughts.  LMAO.  Darius tends to jump into a fight when it's not going the way he thinks it should go, but stays out of it when he doesn't care, or someone else (usually Will) is doing the heavy lifting.  In that situation, he probably doesn't give a shit about Zach, but he doesn't like Gathan, so he figures there's no reason to state his opinion, since Will's leading the charge.  JJ's not involved, and neither is John, so he really doesn't have to defend any of his brothers or his cousin.  I'd sit back with popcorn and watch, if I was him.

[methodwriter85]

 

Your last two points are excellent, and hilarious.  I think that JJ is too prim and proper for Zach's slutty ways, so he finds that annoying.   And JJ's a bit of a snob, so he's looking at this dude from the Midwest, with his Ohio twang and his tats, and thinking that he's bumped into the 2001 version of a "Duck Dynasty" character.

 

I'd probably say he'd think Johnny Knoxville. Who I thought was hot,  but in a serious white trash kind of way. In general, I think the guys JJ's going to keep his eye on are going to be rich, elegant types with smooth, rich boy voices like Armie Hammer.

Or con artists who pose like they're rich, elegant types.

 

I really thought that was a wonderful scene with JJ and John. He's so fucked up, but he needs to look perfect at all times.

[Sammy Blue]

This was a beautiful chapter.

 

I can't wait for the next time John and JJ get together. If they continue what they have going on, JJ's problems will come up again and he will eventually tell John, I think. It is a very touching plotline.

 

My opinion of Zach just did a U-turn. Well not fully, but I'm getting there. He definitely has a side that I didn't see before. I don't think that he is out to hurt Will or to get anything out of him, at least not intentionally.

 

It is almost funny how Gathan pretty much proved what Zach criticized only moments earlier. I can see why everyone is a bit cautious and warns Will, but seriously, everyone who jumped into this discussion - didn't they learn anything in the past? As if patronizing Will would do any good.

 

I think the part about the car is total bullshit. It's not mentioned what he wanted to spend on a car, if it was a reasonable amount or an unreasonable one. I give Zach the benefit of doubt though and assume that he really just wanted to have a car to get around. Even if he made mistakes before, isn't this what the money is for? A car gives you a lot more options, e.g. when it comes to a job, and makes many things easier. I think it is wrong of Gathan to argue the way he did, he is prejudged and should not be in charge of the trust, at least if he continues to see things the way he does right now.

 

It is obvious that Wally and Clara didn't think he need a car. He couldn't even buy new shoes from Robbie's money if it was up to them, we have seen how they think about that a lot. I think it is also hypocritical of Brad to jump in on their side. He has bought expensive cars for people, more or less just because they were a good fuck, but he is against Zach buying a car to get around - from his own money? That's nonsense and I can't wait to see if there will be more about this trust, maybe not soon, but at some point.

 

Of course, if Zach just picked the most expensive car, to piss people off, then I take all of this back, but right now I don't really see that.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Sammy Blue

[methodwriter85]

 

I can't wait for the next time John and JJ get together. If they continue what they have going on, JJ's problems will come up again and he will eventually tell John, I think. It is a very touching plotline.

 

    I wonder if John's going to ask JJ about his scars, or if he's just too polite to bring that up.

 

 

Of course, if Zach just picked the most expensive car, to piss people off, then I take all of this back, but right now I don't really see that.

     Zach SOOOO would drive a Hummer.

Edited November 21, 2013 by methodwriter85

[rjo]

When I heard the terms of Robbie's will and the terms of the trusts I thought it was odd that one could get only $20,000 a year. That seems so little. I understand that each trust is only a million but still it seemed odd. I think if Zach proves himself, he won't have to worry about money. It is that old worry that you take a Hayes boy out of Claremount and give him money he will destroy himself. If I remember right Gathan went through a lot of money on the way too school. Buying a car for Zach seems nothing compared to that. A while back Gathan was the golden boy, he seems to have lost that position. With Darius, JJ and Will against him and Robbie gone.

Edited November 21, 2013 by rjo