9.11

[PrivateTim]

Here is my review because they are some of the issues I want to discuss.

 

I get why Gathan is mad, but why Brad? You'd think after 9-11 trivia wouldn't bother him. Will has the money and buying someone a car at his net worth is like someone else buying an expensive meal. I can see Brad being worried about Will being taken advantage of, but you'd think that would be a casual conversation to do a check on Will's well being not an occasion to get pissed off.

 

If it makes things difficult with Wally & Clara for Brad, then he needs to sit Will down and talk to Will the emancipated minor and talk about seeing more than what is right in front of you.On one hand what Will did was generous, on another it was rather self centered and disrespectful. Zach is still in Wally & Clara's care and they should have been consulted before Will went behind their backs to buy him a car. They could have any number of reasons they didn't want Zach to have a car at that school and that is their call, not Will's.

 

Will has flashes of maturity, but doing what he did to Wally & Clara is sign of immaturity. He owes them an apology.

 

***revised an extended.

 

Austin was a nice addition, but I still like the younger, shier guys like Cam and obviously much prefer the swimmer/polo player body to the football type.

 

[methodwriter85]

    The body types in CAP tend to run from twinks, to Hockey players, to football players, surfers, and swimmers. (Tony was described as a soccer player, but his body type sounds more like a football player.) I'm hoping we get more lacrosse types and long-distance runners at some point.

 

     I think Will pretty much said that Cam's not really shy- he was shy the first day, but now he's pretty much trying to mack on girls all the time. (Not that it means he's not gay- but he's not really shy.)

 

     Did anyone else notice that we're not really seeing too many seniors? It seems like the bulk of upperclassmen that Will's interacting with are juniors, which makes me think that we'll probably see glimpses into the 2002-2003 school year. Mark probably doesn't want to bother that much with introducing characters that are seniors and therefore only around Menlo until spring 2002.  I remember when I was a freshman/sophomore I hung out with a lot of class of 2002/class of 2003 people, which kind of screwed me over by the time I was a junior and the bulk of the people I hung out with were gone. LOL. If you have to go outside your class, it's best to stick to people a year ahead or a year behind. (Although I'll admit by the time I was a senior, I actually had a lot of friends in the class of '07.)

Edited November 26, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Hermetically Sealed]

Will has flashes of maturity, but doing what he did to Wally & Clara is sign of immaturity. He owes them an apology.

 

I have a feeling that Will's myopic act is going to exacerbate the very fears they had about getting help/money from Robbie. His constant desire to just throw money at a problem might seem a no-brainer to him, but for people who have had to scrimp and scrape to make ends meet, I sincerely doubt they are going to want their kids to think that money is some end all be all solution. Not to mention that he has no clue to the what and why's of Wally and Clara's decisions. It's amazing that for someone so "wise" and "mature" for his age, he seems to be constantly lobbing bombs into the lives of others, while imagining that he has no culpability for the explosions that result.

 

I remember when I was a freshman/sophomore I hung out with a lot of class of 2002/class of 2003 people, which kind of screwed me over by the time I was a junior and the bulk of the people I hung out with were gone. LOL. If you have to go outside your class, it's best to stick to people a year ahead or a year behind. (Although I'll admit by the time I was a senior, I actually had a lot of friends in the class of '07.)

 

We didn't get much choice at my school, as the 9th and 10th graders were at seperate facilities from the 11th and 12th grades. We got to make friends, lose them, then repeat. lol

[Daddydavek]

If the car is the problem and Will caused it, then I guess that Brad and Gathan will just have to deal with it as I seriously doubt Will will take it back.   I'm sure he will bring up the fact that he has a gifted a car previously.   That he walked out on them without giving them a chance to vent was the right thing to do.  

 

What I am looking forward to Hawaii and the surfing. 

[Sammy Blue]

Not to mention that he has no clue to the what and why's of Wally and Clara's decisions. It's amazing that for someone so "wise" and "mature" for his age, he seems to be constantly lobbing bombs into the lives of others, while imagining that he has no culpability for the explosions that result.

 

 I have to disagree with this.I am pretty sure Will understands them and I am also sure that it wasn't about him not thinking about it, it was about him not caring what they think (or maybe even him deliberately pissing them, Brad, Gathan, Wally/Clara, off).

 

I can understand him very well. Will has had major issues with other wanting to control his life and not giving him the responsibility and respect that he deserves. He sees the same thing happening to Zach, nobody giving him a chance. If I was him, I would totally do the same thing.

 

Maybe it is not exactly mature to do what he did, but what exactly is mature in this situation? Saying 'as long as he is not 18 it is none of my business? He simply can't do this, with his own history. Trying to talk to Brad/Gathan  about it? Good luck with that.

 

No honestly, I really don't think I can judge him for buying Zach a car. I actually think it was the right thing to do. No matter if Zach proves to have changed or not. If he didn't change I would still think it was right.

 

PS: Also, it was fun seeing everyone freak out about it :D

Edited November 27, 2013 by Sammy Blue

[rjo]

As I said in my review, I believe that Will gave Zach a car for two reasons: one he thought Zach needed one, have you ever tried to shop without a car? Second, Will's sense of justice. This is who Will is, as Mark said "fighting for the underdog." I believe he thought Gathan would be upset and maybe his Dad, however didn't care about Clara and Wally. Zach lives what 500 miles away from Ohio if they were so concerned about him, he would be living at home. I think with Gatan, Clara and Wally controling is money, Zach will be lucky to get any of his money before he is 50. They make Elizabeth Danfield look like a spend thrift. Sometime ago Robbie and JP thought Will was like Tonto this proves they were right. Tonto would be proud of Will. I am proud of Will for seeing things he thinks are wrong and doing what he can to right them. Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!!!

Edited November 27, 2013 by rjo

[PrivateTim]

As I said in my review, I believe that Will gave Zach a car for two reasons one he thought Zach needed one, have you ever tried to shop without a car? Second Will's sense of justice. This is who Will is, as Mark said fighting for the underdog. I believe he thought Gathan would be upset but maybe thought his Dad would however didn't care about Clara and Wally. Zach lives what 500 mils away from Ohio if they were so concerned about him, he would be living at home. I think with Gatan and Clara and Wally controling is money, Zach will be lucky to get any of it before he is 50. They make Elizabeth Danfield look like a spendthrift. Sometime ago Robbie and JP thought Will was like Tonto this proves they were right. Tonto would be proud of Will. I am proud of Will for seeing things he thinks are wrong and doing what he can to right them. Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!!!

 

 

Happy cold Thanksgiving to you too rjo.

 

If Wally and Clara didn't care about Zach, I they'd have turned custody over to the CPO in Claremont and washed their hands of him.

 

My issue is that Will didn't even consult anyone else. He is a 15 year old making decisions on his own with no guidance.

 

I think it is great when Will rights wrongs like with Kai's dad and some of the things he has done, but a 16 year old not having a car at his elite prep boarding school isn't exactly in the UN Declaration on the Rights of Children  

 

 I have to disagree with this.I am pretty sure Will understands them and I am also sure that it wasn't about him not thinking about it, it was about him not caring what they think (or maybe even him deliberately pissing them, Brad, Gathan, Wally/Clara, off).

 

I can understand him very well. Will has had major issues with other wanting to control his life and not giving him the responsibility and respect that he deserves. He sees the same thing happening to Zach, nobody giving him a chance. If I was him, I would totally do the same thing.

 

Maybe it is not exactly mature to do what he did, but what exactly is mature in this situation? Saying 'as long as he is not 18 it is none of my business? He simply can't do this, with his own history. Trying to talk to Brad/Gathan  about it? Good luck with that.

 

No honestly, I really don't think I can judge him for buying Zach a car. I actually think it was the right thing to do. No matter if Zach proves to have changed or not. If he didn't change I would still think it was right.

 

PS: Also, it was fun seeing everyone freak out about it :D

 

No one giving Zach a chance? Wally and Clara have allowed him to go to an elite prep school in New Jersey. Wally & Clara are raising Zach and they didn't have to do that.

 

What is mature in the situation is precisely talking to Brad and Wally & Clara. What is immature is not talking to them because you assume you know the answers. You assume you know better than them why Zach doesn't have a car. He hasn't even heard from Wally & Clara why Zach doesn't have a car, but Will decides on his own he knows better. Does Will even know the school rules at Don Bosco about who can and can't have a car?

[Sammy Blue]

As I said in my review, I believe that Will gave Zach a car for two reasons: one he thought Zach needed one, have you ever tried to shop without a car? Second, Will's sense of justice.

 

Oh yes! I am doing that every other day and maybe that makes me bigoted but at least the shop is only half a mile away! Maybe that makes me bigoted, who knows.

 

If Wally and Clara didn't care about Zach, I they'd have turned custody over to the CPO in Claremont and washed their hands of him.

 

My issue is that Will didn't even consult anyone else. He is a 15 year old making decisions on his own with no guidance.

No one giving Zach a chance? Wally and Clara have allowed him to go to an elite prep school in New Jersey. Wally & Clara are raising Zach and they didn't have to do that.

 

What is mature in the situation is precisely talking to Brad and Wally & Clara. What is immature is not talking to them because you assume you know the answers. You assume you know better than them why Zach doesn't have a car. He hasn't even heard from Wally & Clara why Zach doesn't have a car, but Will decides on his own he knows better. Does Will even know the school rules at Don Bosco about who can and can't have a car?

 

Yes, they do care about him, but they sometimes have views that conflict with the ones of the CAP family. You do have a point with Wally and Clara though. As for Brad and Gathan, it was not possible to talk about this with them. They disqualified themselves from talking about things very effectively.

 

Also, I disagree on Will being so immature. See it from this perspective: legally, he is an adult. If Brad or Robbie or Stef had done something for Zach or his siblings they considered right, even though it was without asking Wally and Clara or asking them but ignoring what they think, nobody would complain about it. If there was complaint then we would not talk about immaturity but about lack of thought or about butting in. And actually, they did do that a lot, didn't they?

 

Maybe Will is butting in, and yes, I guess he should at least have tried to talk to Wally and Clara about it, I do see a point there. But I think he is being judged harshly. There have been various occasions where someone of the CAP family simply ignored Wally and Clara's wishes and/or politely forced something onto them. Brad and Gathan believe that they protect Zach from trouble by not giving him a car. We do not know Wally and Clara's motives but I doubt that they are so worried about what he will do with a car. I think they are in fact worried about what it will do to Zach if he gets money shoved up his a**. However, for that NONE of the CAP family can judge Will, because pretty much all of the key players here did the same thing.

 

Brad and Gathan are simply bigoted. Zach will get into trouble when he wants to get into trouble. You don't need a car to get in trouble, I know many people, including myself, who are the living proof for that. I honestly think that this reason is invalid.

 

What do you think he should have done? And what do you think is Wally's and Clara's reason ? Assuming he is in fact like Tonto, and Zach's parents had said no after talking to them, for the same reason as always: the money issue, how do you think could he have done this differently?

Edited November 27, 2013 by Sammy Blue

[Mark Arbour]

Let me pontificate for a bit and note that we all look at things through our own, biased lenses, and we all project our own issues onto others.  Maybe not all the time, but some of the time. 

 

What happened to Will in this situation is that Zach's predicament (the non-UN Sanctioned Car ) so mirrored his own, it must have seemed like he was witnessing his own battles with his father all over again.  He's looking at Zach, but seeing himself, and when he thinks about Wally and Clara, he sees them being control freaks just like his own parents.  It's got to be satisfying for him, at a very deep level, to be able to help someone out who is struggling with some of the same things he dealt with. 

 

The other thing to consider is that Will usually jumps in to help out the underdog.  He did it with JJ, defending him from bullies; he did it with Kai, saving his virgin ass from Scott Slater; he did it for Gathan (or offered to) when he got into financial problems with the Vegas excursion; and he's doing it for Zach.  That trait he definitely inherited from his great aunt!

Edited November 27, 2013 by Mark Arbour

[B1ue]

If Wally and Clara didn't care about Zach, I they'd have turned custody over to the CPO in Claremont and washed their hands of him.

I thought Zach was their son, not their nephew. It'd be tough to remove just him from their home, and not lose custody of all of their kids, unless he was criminally dangerous.

 

Actually, now that I think about it, one way to do that would be to find someone, like, say, Robbie, willing to pull strings to get him admitted to a school a great distance away from his younger brothers.

 

Edit: Yep, he's Wally and Clara's son. https://www.gayauthors.org/story/mark-arbour/millennium/55

Edited November 27, 2013 by B1ue

[methodwriter85]

 

I think it is great when Will rights wrongs like with Kai's dad and some of the things he has done, but a 16 year old not having a car at his elite prep boarding school isn't exactly in the UN Declaration on the Rights of Children

   

Don Bosco isn't actually a boarding school anymore- it was at its founding, but it converted to day school at some point. (I checked online.) So it's not like Zach can just roll out of bed and go to class. My impression is that Zach lives with a "host" family, who gives him rides when he needs it.  It's probably not awful, but it's gotta be annoying to a 16-year old boy who has a license and knows that he has a trust fund.

 

Besides, it's suburban New Jersey. It's not like he lives in NYC and can take subways and trains. You need a car, period, to get around. This was right when they started banning teenagers from having other teenaged passengers in cars for their first 6 months of a license, so it's not like he can rely that much on his friends, either.

Edited November 27, 2013 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Besides, it's suburban New Jersey. It's not like he lives in NYC and can take subways and trains. You need a car, period, to get around. This was right when they started banning teenagers from having other teenaged passengers in cars for their first 6 months of a license, so it's not like he can rely that much on his friends, either.

Why would you need a car? I can understand wanting one, but Don Brosco is serviced by the local municipal bus system and train system, via a school bus [x]. He's not in the same situation I was when I lived in a rural area, and the only local public transportation was school busses.

 

Besides going to school, what exactly does a high school kid really need to do? He doesn't need to work, and there's pretty good arguments why an athlete trying to get grades good enough for a top school shouldn't add employment to his plate.

Edited November 27, 2013 by B1ue

[rjo]

When I heard the terms of Robbies will I thought it was odd that they could only have $20,000 per year. Even back in 2001 that was not that much money. Brad spent more than that on Kevin who he only just met. This family is very rich. Even Robbie who wasn't as rich as the others gave money to his brothers children who he either never met or only saw once or twice. Mark pointed out two things, First Will fights for the underdog and that he sees Zach having the same problems he did. Only our beloved author can see into the mind of his characters like that the rest of us can only wonder. I ask all of you one thing. We must judge each of these characters the same. I think Will has shown himself as a good and caring person. Is he perfect? No but who is. If we take the actions of Brad or Gathan and compare them to Will they are found wanting. Brad did give money to the mission as Stef did but Will gave his time even more than he was asked to. In this very chapter didn't Will tell JP he didn't limited himself to the easy friends or lovers as in Tony. Some would, not Will. I understand I promote Will a lot. But Mark you killed off Tonto without even a goodbye so I feel I must support her great grandson. Sometime ago Will was told he saw the world in black and white, good and bad. It think that is true and this maybe one of those times. However, we need people like that. As Will said once " sometimes voices need to be strong."  I guess the question is why are Brad and the others upset, what is their reason and most important should they be? If it is only because of control, only because they don't want the hassile then maybe they are wrong. I personally don't think of Clara and Will as the great mind in the world or even in Ohio. Wasn't Gathan given 6 million dollars with $180,000 a year? A far cry from $20,000.

[rjo]

Sorry but I am reminded of the first chapters of  The Box in which Steven was not given a car for his 16th birthday? It took only a day or two for Tonto to correct that injustice.

 

An aside after my car was stolen I lived without a car for a number of years. It was a pain to not have a car. Even only for getting to school, getting food and shopping. This is not New York in which a car can be difficult but NJ which getting around is hard. Today I took the bus downtown and just waiting for the bus in the cold and wind was uncomfortable at the lest.

[methodwriter85]

 

Why would you need a car? I can understand wanting one, but Don Brosco is serviced by the local municipal bus system and train system, via a school bus. He's not in the same situation I was when I lived in a rural area, and the only local public transportation was school busses.

 

     It's not a city bus system, though. Suburban city buses are AWFUL. It takes an hour to do what would take 10 minutes in a car.

 

     In any event, I just think it's hilarious that they're making a big deal of Will giving out a car, when they've given out how many cars to how many guy friends? They treat cars like friendship bracelets, and have ever since the first story. Am I hallucinating or didn't even Cole get a car? It's purely because it's Zach  that it pisses them off.

[Mark Arbour]

Why would you need a car? I can understand wanting one, but Don Brosco is serviced by the local municipal bus system and train system, via a school bus [x]. He's not in the same situation I was when I lived in a rural area, and the only local public transportation was school busses.

 

Besides going to school, what exactly does a high school kid really need to do? He doesn't need to work, and there's pretty good arguments why an athlete trying to get grades good enough for a top school shouldn't add employment to his plate.

 

I think that with practices and the like, it becomes a much bigger hassle to take suburban transit, which as Jeremy rightfully noted, generally sucks.  It's not impossible, but it's a pain in the ass.  And Zach's probably been bitching like crazy because he can't understand why he's supposed to schlep along in busses when a car would make his life so much easier.  He's probably thinking that it's total bullshit that with his decent grades, and his performance as an athlete, that he's being 'deprived' of a car for no good reason.  By the time you're 16, I think that you have the right to demand at least a reasonable 'why'. 

[Sammy Blue]

Let me pontificate for a bit and note that we all look at things through our own, biased lenses, and we all project our own issues onto others.  Maybe not all the time, but some of the time.

 

The discussion did get a bit heated here and there, eh?

 

I think it's kind of funny what a big deal we are making out of this, and how people take sides. It's not like we're talking about something really big, it's just about whether it is justified if some pretty unimportant character doesn't get a car and whether it is right that Will bought him one anyway.

 

It's one of those moments where I could strangle Brad and where I would love to tell Will 'good job'. And it does show in the forum discussion that I feel this way..

 

Anyway, I think that shows us one thing: Not many authors get their readers so animated about something that technically sounds like a non-issue. You are awesome Mark!

[B1ue]

By the time you're 16, I think that you have the right to demand at least a reasonable 'why'. 

Sure. And since it's you saying this, it carries more weight than most. But as a reader, without this statement from you, I wondered if a reasonable explanation already had been given, and that explanation was, "We think you're crazy." Knowing what we know of Hayes in general, Zach's past in particular, and how both of those mesh with the values Wally and Clara tried to instill in their children (whether that was the correct tact to take with children that would be coming into a lot of money is another discussion, but one Brad, Stef, and JP should have had with Wally, Clara, and Gathan), "We don't trust you," seems perfectly reasonable to me. But I can imagine that not seeming reasonable to Zach. People coming from different value systems, as Zach clearly has from his parents, like most teenagers I've met, often have trouble reaching "reasonable" compromises.

[Mark Arbour]

Sure. And since it's you saying this, it carries more weight than most. But as a reader, without this statement from you, I wondered if a reasonable explanation already had been given, and that explanation was, "We think you're crazy." Knowing what we know of Hayes in general, Zach's past in particular, and how both of those mesh with the values Wally and Clara tried to instill in their children (whether that was the correct tact to take with children that would be coming into a lot of money is another discussion, but one Brad, Stef, and JP should have had with Wally, Clara, and Gathan), "We don't trust you," seems perfectly reasonable to me. But I can imagine that not seeming reasonable to Zach. People coming from different value systems, as Zach clearly has from his parents, like most teenagers I've met, often have trouble reaching "reasonable" compromises.

 

That's a very good point.  The dynamics I've shown of the Hayes family seems to indicate that Wally is a gruff but kind-hearted guy, and Clara is a worrier.  Neither one of those personality styles is conducive to healthy communication with a teenager.  Add to that Zach's general cockiness, and his tendency to be a shit-disturber, and the reasoning chasm between them seems to make complete sense. 

 

On the other hand, in a situation like that where no one is really listening to anyone else, sometimes having the issue forced upon them (like Will did) is a good thing. 

[PrivateTim]

Man I hope your son is paying attention to this "teens know better than their parents" thread. Pay backs a bitch

[PrivateTim]

.Brad and Gathan are simply bigoted. Zach will get into trouble when he wants to get into trouble. You don't need a car to get in trouble, I know many people, including myself, who are the living proof for that. I honestly think that this reason is invalid.

 

What do you think he should have done? And what do you think is Wally's and Clara's reason ? Assuming he is in fact like Tonto, and Zach's parents had said no after talking to them, for the same reason as always: the money issue, how do you think could he have done this differently?

 

No, you don't need a car to get in trouble, but getting a car opens the door to even more possibilities. It is like handing a book of matches to a toddler and being surprised when he starts a fire.

 

I also don't get the deification of Tonto. She did grow into a wise woman, but have we forgotten how she reacted to JP and Stef initially? And she was a woman fully growed then, not a 15 year old who has led a rather insular life. It took awhile for her to get there. I am not ready to cede the moral high ground or wisdom of the ages to a callow youth yet.

[Sammy Blue]

No, you don't need a car to get in trouble, but getting a car opens the door to even more possibilities. It is like handing a book of matches to a toddler and being surprised when he starts a fire.

 

I also don't get the deification of Tonto. She did grow into a wise woman, but have we forgotten how she reacted to JP and Stef initially? And she was a woman fully growed then, not a 15 year old who has led a rather insular life. It took awhile for her to get there. I am not ready to cede the moral high ground or wisdom of the ages to a callow youth yet.

 

It is true that a car gives more possibilities, but do you really think they are all honestly that worried about Zach and looking at the situation fairly and clearly, and that they are not letting their personal feelings overrule fair judgement?

 

It is true that Tonto wasn't always perfect, however, Stef did his part there, too. Tonto did react better than anyone else I can imagine would have and she quickly changed her mind and apologized. She did believe she was trying to protect Stef. It wasn't exactly a situation you got confronted with regularly back then.

 

Sure, she was an old women and Will is just a kid, and he has yet to get there where she was, but I bet she was very similar to him in her younger years and I am pretty sure that he will eventually get there.

 

Will's reactions and doings might not always be the best, nor the most diplomatic ones, but he usually does have a point in what he does and usually he tries to be fair more than anything else, or not?

[rjo]

Tim , you don't really like Will do you.  Sorry but I do. I am not saying that Will can do no wrong, but sometimes in seems you think he can do no right. As for Tonto yes that once she reacted poorly, however when JP came out to his parents, Tonto slapped his father. Tonto was not perfect. None of these characters are. I dare say, if they were perfect we as readers wouldn't love them as much. The reason I like Will  is because I see him growing through these books. Is he perfect? no and even close but he is improving. And I also like that down the road his is going to be a really good person. A person to be proud of. He has something that I find missing in most people, compassion. It is something I see in most great people. Not all to be sure but most. Will thinks of others, not all the time yes but he seems to more and more. We may never agree about Will, but that is ok. We see him and the other characters different and that is ok. It is what makes Mark"s writing so good. It gives it depth. It makes us forget that they are not real. and that this story is just words on a page. Whether we agree or not, we both have, because of Mark's writing, the desire to express our opinions sometimes very passionately, and that is a very good thing. I wish you Tim, and all the rest  of Mark's readers a very Happy Thanksgiving!!

[PrivateTim]

It is true that a car gives more possibilities, but do you really think they are all honestly that worried about Zach and looking at the situation fairly and clearly, and that they are not letting their personal feelings overrule fair judgement?

 

It is true that Tonto wasn't always perfect, however, Stef did his part there, too. Tonto did react better than anyone else I can imagine would have and she quickly changed her mind and apologized. She did believe she was trying to protect Stef. It wasn't exactly a situation you got confronted with regularly back then.

 

Sure, she was an old women and Will is just a kid, and he has yet to get there where she was, but I bet she was very similar to him in her younger years and I am pretty sure that he will eventually get there.

 

Will's reactions and doings might not always be the best, nor the most diplomatic ones, but he usually does have a point in what he does and usually he tries to be fair more than anything else, or not?

 

Well lots of confusing stuff here.....  people's personal feelings about Zach were formed based on Zach's actions. I would say that has been a very fair judgment. Zach made his bed, now he has to lie in it. He has to work extra hard just to get back to neutral, let alone get people to trust him.

 

You (and others) are willing to cut Tonto slack because she believed she was protecting Stef, but you won't give that same benefit of the doubt to Brad.

 

Who is Will being fair to? Certainly not Wally and Clara who he has completely disregarded. He didn't even have enough regard for them to hear their thoughts on why Zach should or should not have a car. Will decided on his own that he knew best (as he always seems to believe) without hearing any contrary opinions and acted thoughtlessly.

 

Everyone seems to think Brad has control issues, but no one has more control issues than Will who believes there should be no controls of any kind on him. He gets to act as he pleases because he knows more than anyone else. That is the arrogance and ignorance of youth.

 

Tim , you don't really like Will do you.  Sorry but I do. I am not saying that Will can do no wrong, but sometimes in seems you think he can do no right. As for Tonto yes that once she reacted poorly, however when JP came out to his parents, Tonto slapped his father. Tonto was not perfect. None of these characters are. I dare say, if they were perfect we as readers wouldn't love them as much. The reason I like Will  is because I see him growing through these books. Is he perfect? no and even close but he is improving. And I also like that down the road his is going to be a really good person. A person to be proud of. He has something that I find missing in most people, compassion. It is something I see in most great people. Not all to be sure but most. Will thinks of others, not all the time yes but he seems to more and more. We may never agree about Will, but that is ok. We see him and the other characters different and that is ok. It is what makes Mark"s writing so good. It gives it depth. It makes us forget that they are not real. and that this story is just words on a page. Whether we agree or not, we both have, because of Mark's writing, the desire to express our opinions sometimes very passionately, and that is a very good thing. I wish you Tim, and all the rest  of Mark's readers a very Happy Thanksgiving!!

 

Actually I love Will and love him as narrator, but that doesn't mean I think he should be free to do exactly as he pleases disregarding anyone elses opinions, feelings or authority.

 

Wally and Clara don't have to allow Zach to have the car. They are his parents and they can remove it if they choose. Zach doesn't have the resources to get emancipated, Wally & Clara wouldn't consent anyway and absent abuse or danger to Zach, no court would grant it.

 

I would believe that Will was growing and maturing if he had gone to Wally and Clara and talked to them first. I believe a "good person" would have more regard for the feelings of Wally and Clara than Will exhibited.

 

I am also not saying Will won't get there, but I see buying Zach a car without consulting any of the adults involved, a step backwards, not forward.

 

 

Happy Thanksgiving to all the 'mericans and happy random Thursday to everyone else

Edited November 28, 2013 by PrivateTim

[Hermetically Sealed]

I am wondering where people are getting this notion that Wally and Clara have it out for Zach.  I can see believing Gathan biased, as the two have a history, but there has been absolutely nothing toi indicate that his own parents have something against him.  Indeed, Clara was very quick to jump in to defend him when Gathan and he about came to blows.  There are many reasons they may have had to send him there, from a better opportunity to getting out of some sort of trouble.  I also have to laugh and the idea of a 16 not having a car somehow being a horrible and cruel fate. I'm sorry, but even when I was in college, most of us didn't have cars, but had to rely on bikes or our own two feet to go anywhere off campus.  I don't recall a single person whining about being abused because of it. The notion that a 16 year old must have a car to survive or be comfortable is just ridiculous, and reeks of entitlement. 

 

As for Will ignoring Wally and Clara, I'm sure he is projecting his own fights on to the situation.  However, that doesn't make him right for doing it, just ignorant and presumptuous. The fact that he doesn't care about the consequences proves his immaturity, not refute it. Just because the state (laughably) declared him an adult at 14, doesn't mean he IS an adult; doing so didn't magically bestow upon his brow the wisdom of untold ages (Mark has assured us, there will be NO magical hijinks in this series, so i think it a safe presumption). This is much like his relationship with Kyle.  He felt he was in the right to be having sex with Kyle, while knowing that he and Erik were in a relationship, simply because it wasn't his job to keep others faithful. Yet, inspite of his immature outlook, the reality was that there were consequences to be had. The right thing for him to do in this situation would have been to talk to Wally or Clara and let them know what he wanted to do, and go from there. I mean, be very honest here, if some distant relative decided to interject themselves into your childrearing without consulting you first, can you say you wouldn't be upset? Even if they thought they were doing nothing wrong?  Not having a car isn't child abuse, even if a 14-15 year old child thinks it is.

 

As to the family handing out cars like after dinner mints, while the notion makes me a bit uncomfortable, as far as I am aware weren't they all adults?  I could be wrong but I don't remember them just handing a car to a minor still under their parents' guardianship.  I do agree that the trusts should have been discussed with Wally and Clara, although it was part of a will and I doubt Robbie's plan was to die before they were adults. Still, once Brad decided to add to them, he should have consulted. So no, I don't just think it wrong because it was Will.  I think it was wrong because it was childish and petty, not to mention utterly disrespectful.

 

And before you ask, yes, I really do hate Will as a character.    It's unfortunate, because before PMS he was who I was hoping would be a future narrator (though when he was 16/17 or older). Also, I don't think he can 'do no right', and have even enjoyed a rare few plotlines with him. But overall, anytime he has been with the family, the fawning and messianic treatment of his character (not to mention the repetitive fights) just do not appeal to me. It just feels (to me)  that the only story hooks he's capable of bringing to the series is incessant fighting over childish things, and all other characters get contorted just to justify those fights. Honestly, it flabbergasts me that anyone could look at Will's behavior and say "Wow!  He's so mature and cool! You go, boi!"  ::shrug:: To me, he just comes across as arrogant, petty, shortsighted, mean spirited and spoiled. Again, this is just my feeling on the matter.

 

Luckily for me, Mark has provided at least 3 other Narrators with their own stories to enjoy as well. It's like a game of literary Russian Roulette.
 

 

Everyone seems to think Brad has control issues, but no one has more control issues than Will who believes there should be no controls of any kind on him. He gets to act as he pleases because he knows more than anyone else. That is the arrogance and ignorance of youth.

 

 

I think that sums up Will pretty succinctly. That and he seems to view the world in terms of Black and White, with no room at all for shades of Gray.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Hermetically Sealed