[underthehoodster] Thoughts on P&J

[Mark Arbour]

Well I just spent my spare time for the last three days reading Underthehoodster's Perry and Jesse series. What a captivating story. The detail and the character development were simply excellent, and it was one of those stories that I just couldn't stop. There were a things about the story that just hit me as being wrong, or maybe even impossible. Upon analyzing these impressions, I kept returning to the overwhelming conclusion that the author is either a closet female, or writing from an incredibly feminine point of view.

 

First of all, there seemed to be considerable gender juxtaposition. For example, the key protagonist boys were largely passive, while the women were very aggressive. Notice how Perry is constantly following, not leading, and how Jesse maintains a totally defensive posture? Compare that to the women, like Clarissa, Jessica, Katy, Melissa, or Deanna, all of whom are very assertive, even domineering. The men, when they are assertive, tend to be violently so. Most men recognize that they live in a rough and tumble environment and expect that to a certain degree, whereas women find that, generally, to be insane, much as the author portrays it.

 

Then there is the crying. The guys in this story cry ALL THE TIME. WTF is that all about? Most 8th grade guys do not cry in public, and only in front of each other on rare occasions. It seems like every time you turn around these guys are having emotional breakdowns.

 

Next, Perry is a completely unbelievable character, IMHO. We are given the impression that he is a good friend, very handsome, to all outward appearannces a complete heterosexual, and a basketball star. His good looks are matched by a killer bod. Yet this guy is completely unable or unwilling to fend for himself. This makes no sense. Hell, he can't even handle Deanna, he has to wait for Jesse to bail him out. I am supposed to believe that a 14 year old guy, with broadening shoulders and good muscle tone, can't handle even some fat chick? He is the constant victim. Here's the rub. If this guy is as pretty as we are told, and as wimpy as he is portrayed, and as emotional as we see, I find it hard to figure out how he's going to be popular in middle school, much less pass as straight.

 

Finally, the male sexuality in this story is somewhat unbelievable. Why? These guys, or at least Perry, simply have too much physical control. There reactions are distinctly NOT male. Men think with their dicks, especially when aroused. Perry is bisexual, yet with his encounter with Jessica, he makes no move to take off her bra and play with her tits. Even if he was gay, and she was jacking him off, don't you think he'd want to at least explore? Even a wimp like him? Especially when he's hard as a rock and she's stroking his dick? In his encounters with Tom, with Gary, with Morgan, even though he is aroused and hard, his logic always overwhelms his sex drive. A 14 year old guy? I think not.

 

Further, these guys, in their sexual encounters, often keep their clothes on and just cum in their pants. Sometimes they even plan on it. I can see this once in a while, but it happens alot (Tom and Jesse both do this often). Guys that are exploring sexually, discovering each other's bodies, are clothed? Not buying it.

 

Change the parameters of the story and make Jesse and Perry, especially Perry, females, perhaps cheerleaders. Notice how much better his behaviour fits that mode. The "I'll do it even if I don't want to just to make you happy" sexual attitudes he displays, the "I need someone big and strong to protect me" mode, and the "I'm gonna cry again" emotional responses fit that model much better than a hot middle school male jock.

[Conner]

These comments are offered in the way of a rebuttal to Mark Arbour

[Camy]

Strange how two people see the same story so differently.

I guess I'll have to read it and make up my own mind.

Edited February 6, 2006 by Camy

[Mark Arbour]

I think that I was unclear about how much I truly enjoyed this story, and how talented I think the author is. Underthehoodster is a master at plot design, developing characters, and portraying detailed images. I applaud his work. Simply because I also find some things to be unrealistic does not denigrate those skills. I stand by my comments that the characters are too overtly feminine, not because I have some pre-conceived ideas about gender, but because society does, and males who end up being "popular" are more likely than not to conform, at least in most ways, to those mores.

[LittleBuddhaTW]

Gender inversion is nothing new to gay fiction. Fiction is just that ... fiction. The author highlights or "over does" certain traits/characteristics, scenarios, plot lines, etc. to make either underscore a certain point or to increase the aesthetic value/impression of the work. The impression I get from the original poster is that he hasn't read a whole lot of gay erotica, and has very little background in literary theory/criticism. In that regard, I disagree with his critique.

 

I really have enjoyed the P&J series ... my major critique of the story is that the plot tends to drag A LOT. However, the character development, and especially the unique way in which Perry sees the world (and Jesse) are fascinating. The story is both erotic, while at the same time having an interesting (albeit sometimes lethargic) plot, a decent message, etc. I definitely look forward to reading more.

[Mark Arbour]

Gender inversion is nothing new to gay fiction. Fiction is just that ... fiction. The author highlights or "over does" certain traits/characteristics, scenarios, plot lines, etc. to make either underscore a certain point or to increase the aesthetic value/impression of the work. The impression I get from the original poster is that he hasn't read a whole lot of gay erotica, and has very little background in literary theory/criticism. In that regard, I disagree with his critique.

 

I really have enjoyed the P&J series ... my major critique of the story is that the plot tends to drag A LOT. However, the character development, and especially the unique way in which Perry sees the world (and Jesse) are fascinating. The story is both erotic, while at the same time having an interesting (albeit sometimes lethargic) plot, a decent message, etc. I definitely look forward to reading more.

 

While it is possible that I haven't totally immersed myself in gay erotica, I have read a fair bit of it, and my literary knowledge is not as miniscule as you would imply. I understand what fiction is, but in these situations, the more realistic the story is, the more credible and resonant the story will be.

 

In any event, you totally ignore the premise of my argument: That Perry is way too effeminate to be a jock in school, to be as popular as he is, and to pass as heterosexual, and that his character does not seem to have the male characteristics you would expect someone like him to have. He is a lion pretending to be a bear, and as such I have a hard time believing that he is indeed a bear.

[LittleBuddhaTW]

Fiction is fiction ... this is not a memoir or biography of the author's life, or a historical novel ... it's a fantasy, and through the characters and plot, the author reflects his/her (ideal) view of the world. The fact that the prologues take place in the future, with the main story being a reflection back in time by the narrator (Perry) just further demonstrates that the story is a form of "fantasy." If fiction were too true to life, then no one would want to read it. Perhaps the author is trying to get at something with Perry being able to be a "jock" (although I wouldn't call him one ... just playing sports and being reasonably popular does not a "jock" make), yet at the same time being emotional, displaying what you call "feminine traits" (although this is just another vexing social construction ... I personally don't see Perry as being very effeminite at all ... he's a boy who's only in the middle of puberty, hardly a "man" yet). Could the author's portrayal, therefore, be a sort of social commentary?

 

Anyway, I personally don't get caught up too much in the "realism" aspect of the story ... sure, there are parts which are difficult to believe would actually happen (two beautiful boys coming together like Perry and Jesse and falling madly in love with each other in the 8th grade hardly happens very often in real life to begin wth) ... but that's not the point ... this is an "ideal world," a way for the author and readers to live parts of their lives vicariously through the story and characters.

[Conner]

A far more interesting topic, at least in my view, is the ever increasing feminization of men within our society. Simply put, men are wimps these days. Many have bought into this thing about finding their feminine side. What utter nonsense! Now, unfortunately, this is not really a topic for this forum. The Mighty Myr will summarily lop off my head.

 

However, one aspect of this subject is on topic. Like many kids in our communities, Perry is being raised within a single parent mom family. If you believe that Perry behaves like a girl, how much does this aspect of his life impact on his feminization? What are your views on Perry

[underthehoodster]

Well I just spent my spare time for the last three days reading Underthehoodster's Perry and Jesse series. What a captivating story. The detail and the character development were simply excellent, and it was one of those stories that I just couldn't stop. There were a things about the story that just hit me as being wrong, or maybe even impossible. Upon analyzing these impressions, I kept returning to the overwhelming conclusion that the author is either a closet female, or writing from an incredibly feminine point of view.

 

 

 

Sorry, Mark, no cigar. But check this out...

 

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp.../1630000003.htm

[Mark Arbour]

I think that the only way to settle this is for you to post a full length frontal nude picture. Of course, we wouldn't know if it was really you, but we could fantasize anyway.

[underthehoodster]

I think that the only way to settle this is for you to post a full length frontal nude picture. Of course, we wouldn't know if it was really you, but we could fantasize anyway.

 

 

lol! Don't hold your breath (It causes lack of oxygen)

[JamesSavik]

One of the most difficult parts of writing is characterization.

 

How do you build a character? How do you develop one? How do they relate to other characters? Are you trying to be realistic or dramatic?

 

If you are like most readers, it is the characters that make or break a story. The really memorable stories most probably have a memorable character or cast of characters.

 

If you don't know how deep a subject this really is, there are hundreds of books on writing characters for the stage and screen and as many theories as there are authors on how its done.

 

There are several schools of thought that encourage the use of "gender-bending" roles as a way to show contrasts in characters, build interest and create drama. For example: a very large boy that is rough and tumble with his peers but is exceptionally tender and affectionate with his cat. Here we have a stereotypical "big tough kid" but what makes him interesting is the non-comformity with expected gender behavior.

 

It is contrasts and quirks that make a character stand out and be interesting.

[Camy]

I'm up to chapter 5 and am enjoying this immensely.

I haven't come across any 'gender juxtaposition' as yet, though I am keeping a weather eye open

 

The only slight worry I have is with the foot fetish thing. I don't get it. I mean I get it, I just don't understand... Which must be my hangup.

 

Chapter 6 beckons.

[Mark Arbour]

One of the most difficult parts of writing is characterization.

 

How do you build a character? How do you develop one? How do they relate to other characters? Are you trying to be realistic or dramatic?

 

If you are like most readers, it is the characters that make or break a story. The really memorable stories most probably have a memorable character or cast of characters.

 

If you don't know how deep a subject this really is, there are hundreds of books on writing characters for the stage and screen and as many theories as there are authors on how its done.

 

There are several schools of thought that encourage the use of "gender-bending" roles as a way to show contrasts in characters, build interest and create drama. For example: a very large boy that is rough and tumble with his peers but is exceptionally tender and affectionate with his cat. Here we have a stereotypical "big tough kid" but what makes him interesting is the non-comformity with expected gender behavior.

 

It is contrasts and quirks that make a character stand out and be interesting.

 

You make some excellent points.

[Conner]

...

 

The only slight worry I have is with the foot fetish thing. I don't get it. I mean I get it, I just don't understand... Which must be my hangup.

 

Chapter 6 beckons.

 

I must admit that, since reading this story, I've started noticing feet more. I believe the Hoodster once said, "There are people who don't like feet??? "

 

Hugs,

Conner

[libbonobo]

The only slight worry I have is with the foot fetish thing. I don't get it. I mean I get it, I just don't understand... Which must be my hangup.

 

Hehe. I don't get or understand this woman-fetish thing that straight men seem to have, and I suspect that most straight men don't get or understand this man-fetish thing that I have. I used to worry about that, but it's not something I can do anything about. It's not an issue to get or understand, nor something to worry about (though the prejudice arising from the lack of "getting" and "understanding" *is* something to worry about). It's just something that one likes...or not.

 

More on topic, the having of fetishes is generally a male characteristic.

[Tom]

First of all, there seemed to be considerable gender juxtaposition. For example, the key protagonist boys were largely passive, while the women were very aggressive. Notice how Perry is constantly following, not leading, and how Jesse maintains a totally defensive posture? Compare that to the women, like Clarissa, Jessica, Katy, Melissa, or Deanna, all of whom are very assertive, even domineering. The men, when they are assertive, tend to be violently so. Most men recognize that they live in a rough and tumble environment and expect that to a certain degree, whereas women find that, generally, to be insane, much as the author portrays it.

 

Then there is the crying. The guys in this story cry ALL THE TIME. WTF is that all about? Most 8th grade guys do not cry in public, and only in front of each other on rare occasions. It seems like every time you turn around these guys are having emotional breakdowns.

 

Next, Perry is a completely unbelievable character, IMHO. We are given the impression that he is a good friend, very handsome, to all outward appearannces a complete heterosexual, and a basketball star. His good looks are matched by a killer bod. Yet this guy is completely unable or unwilling to fend for himself. This makes no sense. Hell, he can't even handle Deanna, he has to wait for Jesse to bail him out. I am supposed to believe that a 14 year old guy, with broadening shoulders and good muscle tone, can't handle even some fat chick? He is the constant victim. Here's the rub. If this guy is as pretty as we are told, and as wimpy as he is portrayed, and as emotional as we see, I find it hard to figure out how he's going to be popular in middle school, much less pass as straight.

 

Finally, the male sexuality in this story is somewhat unbelievable. Why? These guys, or at least Perry, simply have too much physical control. There reactions are distinctly NOT male. Men think with their dicks, especially when aroused. Perry is bisexual, yet with his encounter with Jessica, he makes no move to take off her bra and play with her tits. Even if he was gay, and she was jacking him off, don't you think he'd want to at least explore? Even a wimp like him? Especially when he's hard as a rock and she's stroking his dick? In his encounters with Tom, with Gary, with Morgan, even though he is aroused and hard, his logic always overwhelms his sex drive. A 14 year old guy? I think not.

 

Further, these guys, in their sexual encounters, often keep their clothes on and just cum in their pants. Sometimes they even plan on it. I can see this once in a while, but it happens alot (Tom and Jesse both do this often). Guys that are exploring sexually, discovering each other's bodies, are clothed? Not buying it.

 

Change the parameters of the story and make Jesse and Perry, especially Perry, females, perhaps cheerleaders. Notice how much better his behaviour fits that mode. The "I'll do it even if I don't want to just to make you happy" sexual attitudes he displays, the "I need someone big and strong to protect me" mode, and the "I'm gonna cry again" emotional responses fit that model much better than a hot middle school male jock.

 

first of all...If you think that women can't be aggressive and dominating...come to Idaho and I'll let you meet my mother and 2 sisters....the frustration of being raised in a dominant female inviroment caused a few violent outbursts from my father.

 

then there's the emotional damage I recieved from those outbursts....ya, at 36 years old I still fight to keep from crying sometimes

 

despite those strikes against me...I was well known to a lot of people in school and would do anything to help them out..but I never responded to threats toward myself. Why? Lets's just say that I don't have the heart to hurt a fly.

 

As far as the sexual encounters go....I don't think I ever planed to "do it in my shorts"

 

As far as changing the paramiters of the story goes...Hey I have felt all those things and don't think of myself as feminine. I mean there is the "honey do" list and I've found I feel very protected in my lovers arms(both sides of the fence) and sometimes crying is just the only way I can vent off the extra emotion that I seem to keep bottleing up.

 

So I guess what I am saying is...Sorry...I just don't see it

this is an "ideal world," a way for the author and readers to live parts of their lives vicariously through the story and characters.

 

Yup...

.

 

However, one aspect of this subject is on topic. Like many kids in our communities, Perry is being raised within a single parent mom family. If you believe that Perry behaves like a girl, how much does this aspect of his life impact on his feminization? What are your views on Perry's dad leaving his family? Should he have stayed in the relationship for Perry's sake? What's Perry's mom's responsibility in all this

[Rad]

I keep hoping that P&J will be reunited in the future. Like, after this story finishes or even during this story. Oh, and I TOTALLY hate his dad who left his mom who was still depressed from losing her baby.

 

Cheers!

 

Rad

[Drewbie]

Wished they would stay together but he gets marred

[Rad]

Wished they would stay together but he gets marred

 

Hmmmmm

 

D'you think The Hoodster would make them stay together? D'you remember the strange episode about Perry meeting his older self in dream?

 

Cheers!

 

Rad