HMS Valiant

[Mark Arbour]

The next story in the Bridgemont Series, HMS Valiant, was just posted.  I'd been working on getting it online, so it may not show up in the story update thread this time, but it's there.  I hope you enjoy it. 

 

By the way, to get updates on this story, follow the link above, and simply click on "follow this story" in the upper right part of the blurb.  If you follow all of my stories, you can actually get updates on everything, by going here and clicking on "follow this author." 

[Gene Splicer PHD]

INB4 RICKY

 

Redecorating Windsor Castle? Lipstick on a pig, man. Lipstick on a pig.

[ricky]

HA! Lipstick on a pig. Gotta love the British!

A fantastic first chapter Mark. Loved it completely. Only missing Mr Llewellyn and of course, Winkler. So the big question is if he will stay ashore or if he and Mr Jacobs will be along. Somehow I just can't picture Granger without his stalwart Winkler with him.

 

And will he be back with Jervis? Or Lord St Vincent I guess it is now.

So the adventure begins.

[Mark Arbour]

HA! Lipstick on a pig. Gotta love the British!

A fantastic first chapter Mark. Loved it completely. Only missing Mr Llewellyn and of course, Winkler. So the big question is if he will stay ashore or if he and Mr Jacobs will be along. Somehow I just can't picture Granger without his stalwart Winkler with him.

 

And will he be back with Jervis? Or Lord St Vincent I guess it is now.

So the adventure begins.

 

I can't see Winkler not going with Granger, not as long as Jacobs is along, and he seems more than willing to follow Granger. 

 

And it would be Lord St. Vincent.  As history writes it, he'd almost due for a brief period of retirement, so we'll see how close to him Granger ends up being.

[Daddydavek]

I'm just wondering if the refit will take even longer than the Bacchante did?

[rjo]

I was wondering what is the largest frigate? and how big will the Valiant be once she is refit?

[Mark Arbour]

I'm just wondering if the refit will take even longer than the Bacchante did?

 

Since Bacchante was brand new, she took longer.  Valiant's conversion should take about three months, total, then some time for fitting out (rigging, stores, gold leaf, etc.). 

 

I was wondering what is the largest frigate? and how big will the Valiant be once she is refit?

 

That's a little difficult to say, because in this era, size was limited by how much stress a wood hull could take, and that limited the length and width.  The biggest frigates were ships like the USS Constitution and the French (then British) Pomone.  They carried 24 pound cannon on their gun deck, as compared to other frigates, which carried 18 or 12 pounders.  Ships like the Indefatigable and the Valiant are probably more powerful than the Constitution and Pomone by virtue of their larger scantlings (they were built originally to be ships of the line) and their larger secondary armament (they had 42 pound carronades on the upper deck); but in exchange for that, they weren't as fast and maneuverable, or as weatherly.   So we would have to class Valiant as being one of the largest frigates out there.  If I were to draw a more modern parallel, I'd say that Valiant and Indefatigable were analagous to the German Graf Spee pocket battleships. 

 

You didn't ask, but this is the ship that was, IMHO, the best British frigate built:  HMS Endymion

Edited March 1, 2014 by Mark Arbour

[Westie]

Not relevant to the story (but a bit relevant to the series)...  I've been thinking for a while that it's nearly 20 years since I first read C. S. Forrester's hornblower series, and I had been dismayed to learn that my set had been lost in various house moves.  Now, I have a marked preference for physical books which is why I don't own a Kindle, and so today I went to my nearest "Waterstones" bookshop and bought the first two books in the series.

 

Now, I live in central london, and therefore my nearest bookshop is actually the largest of the chain at Picadilly, central London.  Being in a "Granger" sort of mood, I walked a small detour to go via St James' Palace, Carlton Terrace (the site of Carlton House) and then up to the shop.  On my way back, I decided to stroll down via Trafalgar square and that phallic monument to one of our Heroes - Nelson's Column.  These real places that have always stirred my heart are now extra awesome for associations with this series.

 

So now, since I have a week to wait for the next Granger chapter, I think I will settle for the next best thing and read the first Hornblower.

 

Moreover, as next weekend I am in Paris (my birthday present from Paya), I might just spend more time reliving Granger's exploits by researching some of the characters we met there in the last book.

 

Oh, the weekend of a history geek...

[Daddydavek]

Westie says above that it's almost 20 years since he read the "Hornblower" series.   For me, it way more like 50, although I have caught a few of the movies in the series since then.  If any of Mark's fans of the "Granger" series haven't read C. S. Forrester's Hornblower series, I can heartily recommend them.  

 

Here is a link to the Barnes and Noble page:

 

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/C-S-Forrester-s-Horatio-Hornblower-series?store=allproducts&keyword=C.+S.+Forrester%27s+Horatio+Hornblower+series

[ricky]

Not relevant to the story (but a bit relevant to the series)...  I've been thinking for a while that it's nearly 20 years since I first read C. S. Forrester's hornblower series, and I had been dismayed to learn that my set had been lost in various house moves.  Now, I have a marked preference for physical books which is why I don't own a Kindle, and so today I went to my nearest "Waterstones" bookshop and bought the first two books in the series.

 

Now, I live in central london, and therefore my nearest bookshop is actually the largest of the chain at Picadilly, central London.  Being in a "Granger" sort of mood, I walked a small detour to go via St James' Palace, Carlton Terrace (the site of Carlton House) and then up to the shop.  On my way back, I decided to stroll down via Trafalgar square and that phallic monument to one of our Heroes - Nelson's Column.  These real places that have always stirred my heart are now extra awesome for associations with this series.

 

So now, since I have a week to wait for the next Granger chapter, I think I will settle for the next best thing and read the first Hornblower.

 

Moreover, as next weekend I am in Paris (my birthday present from Paya), I might just spend more time reliving Granger's exploits by researching some of the characters we met there in the last book.

 

Oh, the weekend of a history geek...

The next time you make the trek, how about a few pics with your phone? I'm not really interested in the perfect online touristy pics I could probably find online, but rather your view of the spots. Its a bit more personal and real then.

And Happy Birthday. Thanks for all your contributions. The wealth of information you bring to the table is incredible and greatly appreciated.

[AlexLucid]

I have to add my recommendation for the Hornblower novels. Mark's Granger stories led me to the Hornblower novels since I'd somehow missed them when I was younger. I don't really care much for the first three of the novels (when the Hornblower character was a post captain), but I love the later prequels and sequels, especially Lieutenant Hornblower and Commodore Hornblower. Thanks to Mark and this story for leading me to C.S. Forester. I hope others will fall for Hornblower or rediscover his qualities.

[rjo]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! Westie!! While you are in Paris remember Paris is for lovers. Have a great time!!!

[scotchirish87]

Mark, if you weren't already aware, Valiant doesn't appear to be categorized as a Bridgemont novel

[Mark Arbour]

Mark, if you weren't already aware, Valiant doesn't appear to be categorized as a Bridgemont novel

 

Thanks for the heads-up.  I fixed it. 

[Graham]

Hello, I hope all is well with you. Eminent people here mention C.S Forrester, but don't forget Patrick O'Brian... Both great maritime authors, who have given me endless hours of pleasurable, and yes, romantic adventure. I think we have a modern day mixture of both in Mark; I welcome and look forward to this new voyage...    Gx

[Westie]

Hello, I hope all is well with you. Eminent people here mention C.S Forrester, but don't forget Patrick O'Brian... Both great maritime authors, who have given me endless hours of pleasurable, and yes, romantic adventure. I think we have a modern day mixture of both in Mark; I welcome and look forward to this new voyage...    Gx

 

I found O'Brian much harder to read, while they are good books, the writing is not, in my opinion, particularly engaging.  There are also a lot of (acknowledged) errors in the books that just jar me the wrong way.

 

If we are doing recommendations, I think people might be pleasantly surprised if they were to read "Ramage" and it's successors, and of course not forgetting the "Bothilo" series.

 

IF the Navy isn't quite your thing, you can fantasize about an army uniform instead by reading Bernard Cornwell's "Sharpe" series - the books are more engaging than the TV series, though again, with some errors that some (i.e. me) might find infuriating.  For those of you who might consider reading the Flashman novels, they are entertaining enough, but a lot of straight conquests and more cowardice than heroics.

 

Julian Stockwin also writes the "Kydd" series of Novels.  What is interesting about that is that it starts with the hero being a "pressed man" rather than an officer.  These are more modern (first one was published in 2001) and one might find them easier to read than some of the others I have mentioned.

 

Those are the one's I am aware of for this period.  "Historical fiction" is an incredibly exciting genre, and there are many books from both earlier and later periods that are just as exciting.  Of course, without the man on man action we also enjoy with Granger, these books are informative, engaging and exciting, without actually being pulse-racing

[Mark Arbour]

I found O'Brian much harder to read, while they are good books, the writing is not, in my opinion, particularly engaging.  There are also a lot of (acknowledged) errors in the books that just jar me the wrong way.

 

 

My sentiments exactly.

 

If we are doing recommendations, I think people might be pleasantly surprised if they were to read "Ramage" and it's successors, and of course not forgetting the "Bothilo" series.

 

 

 

I had a hard time getting into "Ramage", but I read most of the "Bolitho" books by Alexander Kent.  It also has a number of errors, but I find the character of Bolitho to be a bit too erratic and passionate for my tastes.  He's a bit like "Will" (from the CAP Series) transferred to the Royal Navy in the 1790s. 

[AlexLucid]

If we're going to turn the thread into literary criticism, I'm in.

 

I thought I was the only person in the known world who didn't like the O'Brian books. (The movie adaptation was beautiful to look at and fun to watch, though.)

 

I haven't stumbled across the Ramage books but I have read the Bolitho ones. Pure action-adventure. Fun, like eating a bunch of cookies or bingeing on a trashy TV series. I felt kind of sick at the end. (Where the heck is the Masterpiece Classic to cleanse out my mind...)

 

I think the reason why the Hornblower books hold up is because they are about more than the 'naval adventure' aspects, the fun bits. They're deeply introspective of Hornblower. The books have tremendously powerful moments sprinkled in everywhere -- the struggle to be a good person, the struggle to be a good leader of the right variety. For example, Hornblower is in a boat with a number of his men at one point and they're close to the enemies on shore. One of his men has a fit (possibly epilepsy) and begins making noise. What to do? Silence the man or risk everyone in the boat. It's a well-crafted moment, well written, high tension.

 

Could just be a throwaway, could be a bit of abstract philosophy (philosophers love to pose that kind of question, kill one to save ten). The book makes it into a real moment, and tells us a lot about Hornblower and his agonies. (He believed he killed the sick man and saved the mission.)

 

They are incredible stories, even the ones that aren't so good. (Like dealing with the insane South American potentate or the drawn-out escape from his death sentence in France.) The worst one of Forester's is better than even the best of Kent or O'Brian. That's just my opinion, though.

[Mark Arbour]

The worst one of Forester's is better than even the best of Kent or O'Brian. That's just my opinion, though.

 

Mine too.

[sandrewn]

I did say a red herring, didn't I, oops! This eating of crow is getting to be a bad habit of mine (did you know that crow meat is almost black in colour,tough and gamey). His new command will indeed be an impressive one. The first one of her class to be razeed was HMS Indefatigable, click below to see how accomplished a career she had.Take special note of her armament as a frigate, HMS Valiant should have the same, once finished. Trust Mark to figure out how to reward George for all he has done, without posting him to a ship of the line. If frigates were seen as the wolves of the sea,Valiants' claws will truly be feared, what grand adventures await us.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Indefatigable_(1784)

[Mark Arbour]

I did say a red herring, didn't I, oops! This eating of crow is getting to be a bad habit of mine (did you know that crow meat is almost black in colour,tough and gamey). His new command will indeed be an impressive one. The first one of her class to be razeed was HMS Indefatigable, click below to see how accomplished a career she had.Take special note of her armament as a frigate, HMS Valiant should have the same, once finished. Trust Mark to figure out how to reward George for all he has done, without posting him to a ship of the line. If frigates were seen as the wolves of the sea,Valiants' claws will truly be feared, what grand adventures await us.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Indefatigable_(1784)

 

It is interesting that the Magnanime and Anson ( the other razees) were not as well received, nor as successful. 

[ricky]

Granger is going to kick butt and take names! Truly a wolf of the sea. And certainly an Alpha male! Let's see how much action Mark can get Granger into without upsetting history!

 

Oh what the hell, "we're rewriting it all anyways! Right!" So we hire another revisionist or two. I mean at the rate their going now, the American indians never lost or had any treaties broken, The Jews were only inconvenienced and placed in protective custody and resettled elsewhere and slavery was only a misunderstanding. Don't get me started . . .

 

Oh and did I forget? Politicians and presidents are all unscrupulously honest and have always been.

Given the creative abilities of these fine revisionists, I think a phallus should be erected next to hood's monument. We'll call it the Granger stack. I think we could pull it off. (Oh, pardon the pun)

[Red_A]

It is interesting that the Magnanime and Anson ( the other razees) were not as well received, nor as successful.

 

that I think is one of the most interesting question of the naval wars.

It may be:---

 

Rubbish in rubbish out

 

The crew and particularly the master ship wright that converter her.

 

The captain that commanded her.

 

Rubbish in rubbish out, Indeflagible was a razeed Ardent class ship of the line,  the others were Intrepid  class ship of the line.  Indeflagible may have been in good condition when she was converted, the others may have been not so good. I believe all three were built in different places.

 

The crew and particularly the master ship wright that converter her. The instruction was to razee the ship.  That left a lot of scope for the converter and the skill of the convertor(s).  Did they have previous knowledge of the French doing this, did they have details of how the ship being converted was built. I believe that the Indeflagible was converted before actual sevice (years uncommissioned).  I have no way of checking this as I no longer have a Greenwich readers ticket, but it is possible that Indedefligible was the third in the process by a crew that new her when she was originaly fitted out.

 

The captain that commanded her. Sir Edward Pellow was definately a good captain, but so were the other captains of Indefligible and the other ships.  It may be that Sir Edward style matched the ship, and once the ship was run in, following captain would continue in that style.

 

It is now 200 years ago, so no body will know.  With that catch,  it is reported (rumour no facts) that the other two although they had a better performance than ship of the lines(as you  would expect), Indefligible was better and much more like a pure frigate performance. 

 

Whatever is said, the conversion of all three ships were a sucess as the basic  design of a light built ship of the line was unsucessful, and a frigate was much more useful, and in demand.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Red_A

[Westie]

I would suggest that the performance had much to do with the method of construction and the years of service.

 

Indeed you are right that the HMS Indefatigable did not see service.  She was built NOT at one of the Navy dockyards, but at Bucklers Hard by Henry Adams.  This is the shipyard and builder that also built HMS Agamemnon (Nelson's favourate ship).  It was build from the best of the New Forest timber, which was cut in the same place it was felled.  This made for incredibly strong beams, that had not been damaged in either transport or by the harsh saltwater before treatment at Portsmouth.  The other consideration is that the ship was coppered almost immediately, and preserved very well in the 10 years she lay in dry dock.

 

Both HMS Anson and Magnanime saw active service before being converted.  Both ships were launched uncoppered - the coppering being added in the conversion process.  Anson and Magnanime were built at Plymouth and Deptford respectfully - both of these being state dockyards, which were of a lower quality.  They used different woods - Plymouth used wood that was from Dartmoor, or imported from further afield, for which they had very little control of the quality.  Deptford used Oak from the Royal Forests at Epping and Windsor, which was of better quality but badly warehoused.

 

So I think there were very clear differences in ship quality at the time of conversion.  That is not of course to minimise the other issues that were mentioned that would have had a big impact also.

 

West

 

[Mark Arbour]

 

I would suggest that the performance had much to do with the method of construction and the years of service.

 

Indeed you are right that the HMS Indefatigable did not see service.  She was built NOT at one of the Navy dockyards, but at Bucklers Hard by Henry Adams.  This is the shipyard and builder that also built HMS Agamemnon (Nelson's favourate ship).  It was build from the best of the New Forest timber, which was cut in the same place it was felled.  This made for incredibly strong beams, that had not been damaged in either transport or by the harsh saltwater before treatment at Portsmouth.  The other consideration is that the ship was coppered almost immediately, and preserved very well in the 10 years she lay in dry dock.

 

Both HMS Anson and Magnanime saw active service before being converted.  Both ships were launched uncoppered - the coppering being added in the conversion process.  Anson and Magnanime were built at Plymouth and Deptford respectfully - both of these being state dockyards, which were of a lower quality.  They used different woods - Plymouth used wood that was from Dartmoor, or imported from further afield, for which they had very little control of the quality.  Deptford used Oak from the Royal Forests at Epping and Windsor, which was of better quality but badly warehoused.

 

So I think there were very clear differences in ship quality at the time of conversion.  That is not of course to minimise the other issues that were mentioned that would have had a big impact also.

 

West

 

 

 

Your insight into the Indefatigable's construction was interesting, and awesome as usual.  I find I am in one of those rare situations where I disagree with you, regarding the sentence highlighted above.

 

While there are certainly anecdotal tales of ships being well-constructed in private yards, the general consensus I have noted is that the quality of construction at Royal yards was considerably higher.  You mention that Agamemnon was built at the same yard.  Nelson, who was (as you noted) a huge fan of his little battleship, was also compelled to note that she was often in need of a refit.  This is also noted in the Wiki page on Agamemnon:

 

 Despite Nelson's fondness for the ship, she was frequently in need of repair and refitting, and would likely have been hulked or scrapped in 1802 had war with France not recommenced.

 

 

Perhaps a more insidious example of private dockyard corruption would be the Vengeur-class ships of the line, nicknamed the Forty Thieves.

 

Agamemnon and Indefatigable both began life as Ardent-class ships of the line.  I tend to attribute their successes as a product of their design, rather than their construction, but that's just my own opinion.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Mark Arbour