HMS Valiant

[Westie]

This latest chapter was really well written.  This really is one of my favourite parts of British history, and Mark's interpretation is very enjoyable.

[ricky]

Westie. A question if you please. Could you indulge me with a question? Could you explain the relationship of the purser? For instance when they were in Functual he was worried about the money spent and whether the Admiralty would reimburse him. Granger said if they didn't he would. Does the purser bankroll the ship from his own funds? How is he paid? It's all very confusing.

[Westie]

Westie. A question if you please. Could you indulge me with a question? Could you explain the relationship of the purser? For instance when they were in Functual he was worried about the money spent and whether the Admiralty would reimburse him. Granger said if they didn't he would. Does the purser bankroll the ship from his own funds? How is he paid? It's all very confusing.

 

Wow, that is a really great - and complicated - question.  

 

Principally, the purser is a warrant officer, and as such is just a part of the crew as any other, yet he receives no Salary.  He manages to Navy Budget for the ship, which is to say that he is responsible for issuing stores.  However, he is also responsible for the purchase of those stores.  Like any business, his "margin" is the difference between the supply in price, and the price the Navy will repay him at.  He is required to provide certain items at set prices, and often is required to buy these items from a Navy supplier, but he also has considerable latitude - especially when replenishing in a foreign port, to make purchases himself to sell in.

 

Where the Navy set the purchase price (from stores) and the sale price (back to the Navy when issued as rations), the purser is left with 5%.  But if the purser has purchased beef himself, it might be that he got a deal that allows him to sell with a 6% margin.  The same is true for all other stores.  Yet, he is also responsible for all losses, and so if a cask of beef is bad, then he has to stand the loss himself.  

 

Where the Purser can make his biggest profits are in the sale of luxuries.  The purser will often bring on significant personal stores - even livestock - which crew members can supplement their rations with for a price.  Note that the Navy sees only private trade and does not regulate price at all.  Tobacco, cloth, sugar, spirits, wine, beer, fresh meat (livestock), extra bread, and other sundries are all available from the Purser.  Moreover, the purser will operate on credit against wages yet to be earned, on which he will charge a fee (not interest, which would have been usury and therefore illegal).

 

The purser would finally manage the private stores of the Captain and other officers.  These officers would often bring aboard huge stores of their own, and these would not just be for their own use.  They would engage in private trade via the purser, for whose services they pay a fee.  Someone like Granger would have brought aboard gallons of wine and fine spirits, with which the purser would trade with the pursers of other ships.  For example, when Granger joined Jervis' fleet, Jervis and his captains would have had the opportunity to replenish their own luxuries - for a price.

 

Much of this trade would be done on credit notes and vouchers - redeemable in  London - and so the purser needed to have a significant float of cash, as well as a very large surety that they had to pay to the admiralty upon taking up their position.

 

A talented purer could become a very rich man.  A good one could make a living.  Most either broke even, or lost money.

 

Of course, there were opportunities for corruption.  Substituting expensive meat for cheaper cuts was common.  "bulking" foods with flour, starch and other "invisible" expanders worked too.  One purser had the idea to mix barley and oats into pease in order to bulk it out, and found the crew actually preferred it as it made them fuller.

 

This of course is a very - VERY - quick summary from the top of my head.  I can go into more detail sometime, but alas my time is pretty full at the moment - much like our esteemed author I suspect.

[ricky]

Thank you. That was awesome and answered my question. It would seem though that the purser might take offense when Granger would bring large quantities of bread for the men as that would cut into his profits. Hungry men would buy more from him. I can see where the sailor might opt to spend much of his earnings on extra food as the likelihood of him being killed and unable to collect any of it was questionable. But then again, Granger didn't do it often enough to affect commerce.

 

It's amazing to me that so much came out of Granger's purse as well. As I understand it medical supplies were not supplied by the admiralty. Or if it was, only a portion of it. It's an interesting microcosm. A unique society unto itself. 

 

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. It's a fascinating study.

Cheers,

r

[Headstall]

Wow, that is a really great - and complicated - question.  

 

Principally, the purser is a warrant officer, and as such is just a part of the crew as any other, yet he receives no Salary.  He manages to Navy Budget for the ship, which is to say that he is responsible for issuing stores.  However, he is also responsible for the purchase of those stores.  Like any business, his "margin" is the difference between the supply in price, and the price the Navy will repay him at.  He is required to provide certain items at set prices, and often is required to buy these items from a Navy supplier, but he also has considerable latitude - especially when replenishing in a foreign port, to make purchases himself to sell in.

 

Where the Navy set the purchase price (from stores) and the sale price (back to the Navy when issued as rations), the purser is left with 5%.  But if the purser has purchased beef himself, it might be that he got a deal that allows him to sell with a 6% margin.  The same is true for all other stores.  Yet, he is also responsible for all losses, and so if a cask of beef is bad, then he has to stand the loss himself.  

 

Where the Purser can make his biggest profits are in the sale of luxuries.  The purser will often bring on significant personal stores - even livestock - which crew members can supplement their rations with for a price.  Note that the Navy sees only private trade and does not regulate price at all.  Tobacco, cloth, sugar, spirits, wine, beer, fresh meat (livestock), extra bread, and other sundries are all available from the Purser.  Moreover, the purser will operate on credit against wages yet to be earned, on which he will charge a fee (not interest, which would have been usury and therefore illegal).

 

The purser would finally manage the private stores of the Captain and other officers.  These officers would often bring aboard huge stores of their own, and these would not just be for their own use.  They would engage in private trade via the purser, for whose services they pay a fee.  Someone like Granger would have brought aboard gallons of wine and fine spirits, with which the purser would trade with the pursers of other ships.  For example, when Granger joined Jervis' fleet, Jervis and his captains would have had the opportunity to replenish their own luxuries - for a price.

 

Much of this trade would be done on credit notes and vouchers - redeemable in  London - and so the purser needed to have a significant float of cash, as well as a very large surety that they had to pay to the admiralty upon taking up their position.

 

A talented purer could become a very rich man.  A good one could make a living.  Most either broke even, or lost money.

 

Of course, there were opportunities for corruption.  Substituting expensive meat for cheaper cuts was common.  "bulking" foods with flour, starch and other "invisible" expanders worked too.  One purser had the idea to mix barley and oats into pease in order to bulk it out, and found the crew actually preferred it as it made them fuller.

 

This of course is a very - VERY - quick summary from the top of my head.  I can go into more detail sometime, but alas my time is pretty full at the moment - much like our esteemed author I suspect.

I thank you as well. I found this very interesting and informative as I did not realize that was how it worked...much appreciated...cheers...Gary

[Mark Arbour]

I'd like to say that Westie is incredible, but that would be an understatement. 

 

Focusing on the purser's margin for profit, it is interesting to reflect back to the Spithead Mutiny, where one of the major complaints was that the purser was taking two ounces out of every pound of meat...hence the term "the purser's pound", which was 14 ounces.  For the sailors, it must have seemed incredibly unfair, but to the pursers, I suspect having that eliminated seriously impacted the profitability of their jobs. 

[ricky]

It brings to mind a similar thing in the US history that is not widely known. Back in the days when bakers were being hung for the same practice only in the making of bread, bakers were so afraid of being hung that they chose to use the avoirdupois pound for dry measure which is 30 grams more then the apothecary pound just to make sure.  It remained so until 1971 when the U.S. went to the metric system for all commercial dry weights.

[Westie]

I'd like to say that Westie is incredible, but that would be an understatement. 

 

Focusing on the purser's margin for profit, it is interesting to reflect back to the Spithead Mutiny, where one of the major complaints was that the purser was taking two ounces out of every pound of meat...hence the term "the purser's pound", which was 14 ounces.  For the sailors, it must have seemed incredibly unfair, but to the pursers, I suspect having that eliminated seriously impacted the profitability of their jobs.

 

Interestingly, the pursers instructions detailed the set daily menu for a sailor, which references the "pound" you mention here. Note though that butter and cheese are measured in ounces, so no margin

 

Sunday - 1 pound of pork, ½ pint pease (usually served as either pease pudding or a pottage)

Monday - 1 pint of oatmeal, 2 ounces of butter (which to me seems like almost nothing at all)

Tuesday - 2 pounds of beef (a veritable luxury, as a typical peasant would eat beef maybe only twice per year)

Wednesday - ½ a pint of pease, 1 pint of oatmeal, 2 ounces of butter, and 4 ounces of cheese

Thursday - duplicates Sunday

Friday - duplicates Monday

Saturday - duplicates Tuesday

 

The pork and the beef would be salted (well, actually brined). Beef in this way is still eaten today in the form of corned beef (not the type you get in a tin), but salt pork is no longer popular in Britain. Mutton could replace salt beef when in port or where live animals were available.

 

Of course, if you could catch wild fish while sailing, you could eat it. Often there would be official fishing parties, but just as often men would fish on their off hours. The purser would often give them credit for their catch, and fish stew would be a popular source of protein on a long voyage.

 

In the west indies, oatmeal could be substituted for chocolate - again, not the type we know today, but more of the beans - mixed with sugar or molasses.

 

The men also got bread daily, but of course raising the dough on board a ship would be next to impossible. This is why Granger buying FRESH bread is such a luxury. Salt kills yeast, and so any bread found on a ship was usually unleavened. Today an atrisan store might sell them as flatbreads when mixed with herbs, olives or tomatoes - but make no mistake that these breads were hard, dry and tasteless. Often, the substitute was biscuit. No sign here of a Fig Newton or a Garibaldi, or even a custard creme. These are more akin to oat-cakes.

 

Finally, I should mention that we often hear Granger give the order to light the galley stove. This gives a quaint little picture that might not live up to your expectations. On granger's smaller commands it would be a wood fired thing build of heavy stones or brick (easier to reconstruct after damage in a battle). But on a larger ship, such as the Valiant, it would be a cast iron stove fired by coal. On HMS victory, there was also a rudimentary pipe and pump which could provide heated water from this stove to the Captain's quarters and to the sick bay. I think Granger would be keen to experiment in this way too.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Westie

[ricky]

 

Interestingly, the pursers instructions detailed the set daily menu for a sailor, which references the "pound" you mention here. Note though that butter and cheese are measured in ounces, so no margin

 

Sunday - 1 pound of pork, ½ pint pease (usually served as either pease pudding or a pottage)

Monday - 1 pint of oatmeal, 2 ounces of butter (which to me seems like almost nothing at all)

Tuesday - 2 pounds of beef (a veritable luxury, as a typical peasant would eat beef maybe only twice per year)

Wednesday - ½ a pint of pease, 1 pint of oatmeal, 2 ounces of butter, and 4 ounces of cheese

Thursday - duplicates Sunday

Friday - duplicates Monday

Saturday - duplicates Tuesday

 

The pork and the beef would be salted (well, actually brined). Beef in this way is still eaten today in the form of corned beef (not the type you get in a tin), but salt pork is no longer popular in Britain. Mutton could replace salt beef when in port or where live animals were available.

 

Of course, if you could catch wild fish while sailing, you could eat it. Often there would be official fishing parties, but just as often men would fish on their off hours. The purser would often give them credit for their catch, and fish stew would be a popular source of protein on a long voyage.

 

In the west indies, oatmeal could be substituted for chocolate - again, not the type we know today, but more of the beans - mixed with sugar or molasses.

 

The men also got bread daily, but of course raising the dough on board a ship would be next to impossible. This is why Granger buying FRESH bread is such a luxury. Salt kills yeast, and so any bread found on a ship was usually unleavened. Today an atrisan store might sell them as flatbreads when mixed with herbs, olives or tomatoes - but make no mistake that these breads were hard, dry and tasteless. Often, the substitute was biscuit. No sign here of a Fig Newton or a Garibaldi, or even a custard creme. These are more akin to oat-cakes.

 

Finally, I should mention that we often hear Granger give the order to light the galley stove. This gives a quaint little picture that might not live up to your expectations. On granger's smaller commands it would be a wood fired thing build of heavy stones or brick (easier to reconstruct after damage in a battle). But on a larger ship, such as the Valiant, it would be a cast iron stove fired by coal. On HMS victory, there was also a rudimentary pipe and pump which could provide heated water from this stove to the Captain's quarters and to the sick bay. I think Granger would be keen to experiment in this way too.

Wow. Now the rations given were just once a day? The same thing three times a day or were they given that which you stated just for the main meal and oatmeal or pottage peas for the other two meals a day?

[Westie]

Wow. Now the rations given were just once a day? The same thing three times a day or were they given that which you stated just for the main meal and oatmeal or pottage peas for the other two meals a day?

Sorry Ricky, but "3 meals a day" is a relatively modern aberration. As a matter of fact, it's only relatively recently (1930s) that a classless definition of mealtimes has developed. My grandmother would tell you that there are 5 meals a day; breakfast, luncheon, tea, dinner and supper. But she was from a class and time that doesn't really exist anymore.

 

As a sailor, you would have a breakfast - usually bread etc - but otherwise you would have only one meal a day. But it would be one damn good meal. Likelihood is that they would only light the stove once a day - to do more would be a waste.

[sandrewn]

For one week in 76, I was a patient in the Polish hospital in Ismailia, Egypt. I was surprised to find out that they had four meals a day. Breakfast, lunch, dinner and supper. Breakfast and dinner the main ones, lunch and supper more like snacks. I never had the munchies while there, now that was food for thought.

[sandrewn]

So with no ships to fight (French, Spanish or Dutch) and the Bey of Oran still rebuilding, it looks like George had no option but to find something else, smuggling won't you know. I don't think the 89th as a whole is involved, nor its Col (unless Mark says so), a small group with Capt O'Brian, possibly in cahoots with the guild and maybe even known to Lady Elgin. Okay, that last one might be a stretch. She does only have here and the next port of call left, to pull something off. In that case, some blood, the odd casualty, but please don't off any of the midshipmen. I wonder if Iggy will be at the last port of call and if he is involved in any way? Trust Mark to add some new excitement  in addition to all the on going intrigue.

[ricky]

I think you'll find that the 89th and particularly the captain are involved in smuggling or worse, slavery. The folks dropped of seven years ago need food and things. If those are only provided through corruption then they will pay dearly for them. And if the plan was to disembark many of the new settlers through capture and enslavement then Granger will be a very unhappy man indeed. And woe to the fool who makes Granger unhappy.

[sandrewn]

The British only recaptured the island in November of 1798. I don't think there would have  been time to set up anything too sophisticated. Perchance, O'brian and a small cabal of like minds stumbled across something already on going. There is nothing I could find historically on any such doings going on there at that time. The Regiment and its Col appeared spotless up to this point. Having said all this, let us wait and see what Mr Meurice is able to find out and go from there. Anything that would not change history or a destined outcome and since we need filler in this quiet time period? Well, Mark is rather good at making things up(creative writing), to suit the occation.

 

A bit off topic, while I was looking through the 89th history, I came across the following. It brought to mind something from Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe series. When Richard Sharpe requested to lead the forlorn hope at the siege of Badajoz.

 

 

At the siege on Malta, the 89th Regiment Of Foot was assigned role as the forlorn hope, the "first ones in the breach". To everyone's surprise the Ensign was happily going to be the first man in the breach. He knew it was a cetain death sentence but he was doing it for his regiment and his country. As he ran into the breach in the northwestern wall he gave a "GOD SAVE THE KING!". Ensign William Moore was killed when he set foot into the breach, but inspired by his brave charge, the rest of the men followed suit and played a major role in the taking of Malta. -Journal From Captain Thomas Clayworth, Officer In The 89th.

[Westie]

The British only recaptured the island in November of 1798. I don't think there would have  been time to set up anything too sophisticated. Perchance, O'brian and a small cabal of like minds stumbled across something already on going.

This.

 

Smuggling is an operation that transcends rule and politics. It continues under both left and right, in democracy and autocracy, whether under the British, French, Spaniards or others. Sometimes the men at the top are toppled (as I think may end up being the case here), but as long as there is demand - a void to be filled - someone will take up the slack.

[Daddydavek]

People have always figured ways around the rules to get what they want.  For some people, it is a mission.  

 

And I for one am starting to miss my Granger fix!  

[ricky]

Valient CH 13, the last paragraph. The Duke of suffolk says, "I have lived my life on this battlefield. I am familiar with the lay of the land." Referring to Lady Granger's affair with Cavendish and Mag Tredway. Is he saying that Granger's mother has had affairs? (Just rereading from the beginning for the umpteenth time but certainly not the last. lol)

[ricky]

Any comment on how the next is coming alone Mark? Are we looking at days or weeks? I just need to ration out my liquor for the lean times. lol

[sandrewn]

To late for me, I already finished off my six pack of Baby Duck(one of the few select wines that come with twist or bottle top). These be dark times for us, fellow shipmates. This famine will end soon (fingers & toes crossed). To help pass the time here once more is our unofficial series theme song. Be brave, me hearties!

 

[Mark Arbour]

I haven't had time to work on much of anything, but I've maybe got a fourth of the next chapter done, so it will be a while.  Sorry everyone.

[ricky]

I haven't had time to work on much of anything, but I've maybe got a fourth of the next chapter done, so it will be a while.  Sorry everyone.

No problem Mark. I'm working on a stihl for hard times. Don't feel you have to rush. Quality creates it's own demand. We'll be here and you'll eventually create more to add to the classic that will remain so for days longer then our lives. (Just don't croak in the middle of a book because nobody else could ever do it justice.) So don't rush thinking you have to satisfy the mobs.

 

Having said all that,

are we there yet?

[JimCarter]

I haven't had time to work on much of anything, but I've maybe got a fourth of the next chapter done, so it will be a while.  Sorry everyone.

 

Thanks for the heads up.  I know I'm never satisfied but I really do appreciate these updates.

[sandrewn]

Did you turn your clocks back 1 hr ?. This article has little to do with our story. It does mention the Portsmouth Naval Dockyard and HMS Victory. It is about the HMS M33, the last remaining Allied warship of the Gallipoli campaign.

 

Lest we forget

 

 

 

How the last Gallipoli gunboat was saved

PHOTO: Dogboy, Wikimedia CommonsM33 undergoing restoration in Portsmouth Naval Dockyard in 2010.

 

by Tom Rowley,
The Daily Telegraph
Originally published: 2 days ago

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She was a pretty dismal ship that fought a pretty dismal campaign. But now, a century after she was commissioned by Winston Churchill, HMS M33 is set to play a central role in commemorating one of the most shambolic episodes of the First World War.

The gunboat, which bombarded the Turkish coast during the disastrous Gallipoli campaign of 1915 and 1916, is to undergo a $4.3 million restoration in time for the operation’s centenary next year. Restoration work is underway in a dry dock at Portsmouth Historic Dockyard.

She is one of the few remaining warships from the First World War, and the only one to have served at Gallipoli, where 50,000 Allied servicemen died without gaining an inch of soil.

Researchers have unearthed crew members’ diaries, as well as original logs and captain’s reports. Financed by the Heritage Lottery Fund and other donors, the National Museum of the Royal Navy at Portsmouth will restore some of the interiors before opening the 570-ton ship on August 6 next year, exactly a century since she first saw action. She is expected to take part in official events to commemorate the campaign, due to be outlined by the Government next week.

Historians hope that the permanent exhibition will raise awareness of Gallipoli. “We can’t just remember the war’s successes – we have to remember the failures,” said Duncan Redford, one of the museum’s historians. “We want to lift people’s views from the mud of the trenches to the whole world. The Great War was far more than the Western Front.”

In fact, the campaign was designed to end the trenches stalemate, by destroying Turkey as a fighting force and opening a line of communication with Russia, uniting the Allies. British, Commonwealth and Empire forces, with the French, would seize the Turkish peninsula of Gallipoli before advancing on the Ottoman capital, Constantinople.

Gallipoli became the largest amphibious operation of the war, and its least effective. Historians have blamed its failure on poor planning, insufficient artillery and inaccurate maps and intelligence.

The M33 was one of five monitors, or gunboats, commissioned by Churchill, first lord of the Admiralty, and John Fisher, the first sea lord, in March 1915. Rather than risking state-of-the-art battleships in what they knew would be a risky campaign, they ordered monitors, specifically designed to be expendable.

Equipped with 6-inch guns but with a very shallow hull, they were able to maneuver close to the shore and bombard the coastline. A battleship carried up to 1,000 men, but monitors only had room for 67, meaning that each assault would put fewer men in danger.

The campaign had begun by the time the Admiralty placed the order, so Harland and Wolff in Belfast had to build M33 in just seven weeks. She had many flaws. She was made so quickly that the workmen who built her called her a “whippet,” but not for her speed: she could barely reach 10 knots. She was also unstable: a crewman complained that even “some of our modern sons of Neptune [were] wonderfully seasick.” She struggled in strong currents and had to be towed to Malta, which she reached on July 14, 1915.

She spent the next three years in the Aegean, targeting Turkish forts with around 50 rounds of gunfire a day. “She was not designed to be maneuverable or to be a ship that fights other ships,” said Matthew Sheldon, who is spearheading the restoration at the museum. “She was about attacking forts, and was designed around her guns.”

Even though the crew did not return home until Armistice Day, November 1918, there were no casualties, despite a few “hairy moments”. The other monitors were not so lucky: one sank in 1916 and another two years later.

But the crew of the M33 endured other hardships. Unlike soldiers, they had no leave for more than three years. Conditions were cramped, with 44 men sleeping in hammocks in a small room where temperatures could top 38C. There was no refrigeration, so the men often survived on ship’s biscuits.

Even so, diary entries state that the crew organized fancy dress competitions and adopted a small cat they named Miss Muggins, who grew fat on tinned fish and was forever getting lost.

Henry Mulligan, the ship’s leading signalman, wrote his diary throughout the campaign. On August 7, 1915, he wrote: “Fired 59 rounds today. Don’t think Mr Turk likes the look of us.”

Related stories:

• A perilous gap in Armenian history
• First World War battlefields reveal stories 100 years later in large photo exhibit in Paris
• Photos: Life in the trenches
• Images: Remembering Unknown Soldiers from the Great War

 

After the war, the ship was sent to Russia as part of the White Sea Squadron, to support counter-revolutionary forces fighting the Bolsheviks. She was hit twice, and her hull still shows the repair after a Bolshevik shell struck in 1919. Miss Muggins suffered a burnt tail.

M33 was saved from the scrapyard when she was converted into a floating workshop during the Second World War. She was bought by Hampshire County Council in 1990, which carried out emergency repair work – but a plan to open her to the public could never be realized. Until now.

Today, she stands in a dry dock propped up by sodden timber. Workmen are on site to see she is ready by next August. Ironically, this old workhorse sits in the shadow of HMS Victory, Nelson’s flagship. Yet, she has her own appeal, says Sheldon: the speed she was built, and the good humour with which her crew endured life aboard. “She shows what British industry could do in just seven weeks,” he said. “It was incredible.”

.

[ricky]

Thanks Sandrewn. I love hearing about the naval history of the UK. It really was the center of civilization of the modern world. It still is in many respects. This is nothing short of remarkable, to build such a thing in such a short period of time given the time in history and the technology available to them. Absolutely remarkable. And the men and even the cat that crewed her are a testament to their dedication to duty. I can't imagine it. 59 rounds in probably now more then 10 hours of daylight means constantly serving their guns during daylight hours. And six rounds an hour as well as maintaining the ship had to be daunting.

I don't know the particulars about servicing the guns or crewing the ship but for the size of the crew it's obvious they had double duty or more. and 38c /100.4f would be unbearable even with some airflow.

 

Wow.

[ricky]

UGH! Mark, come on. We're back to three to one with Streak taking the high road again. I KNOW it's easier to write but damn. I'm getting the shakes and there's no HMS methadone equivalent.

*sigh* Sorry, Hopes were just dashed again. Saw your name in the email and I was like, "YES! . . . oh never mind." Not that CAP isn't good too. I'm sure it is. But I left it ages ago when infidelity became an accepted practice. For me it was a story stopper. I know it happens in HMS as well but at least there is a conscience associated with the act of betrayal. I could never do it so I don't get the mindset. So that only leaves me with one Mark Arbour story and it's greatness.

 

Just jones'in and needed to vent.