HMS Valiant

[ricky]

Hi Mark,

Another great chapter. Quite a haul. NO value was set but two chests would be quite a bit. Probably difficult to place a value on gems and so many different currencies but I'm sure when they get back we'll find out.

 

Nice save and planning for the return trip. So much duplicity and greed in corruption. I guess some things never change. It will be interesting to see how this intrigue plays out. I wonder if anything afloat is aware of the chests. It would seem the one eyed priest would have a backup plan if the first failed unless he underestimated them. Another thing to ponder is can this be unraveled before the next step is due to be committed? It would seem the guild has vast resources and the price on Granger's head could be very high indeed. And since the threat is going to be dressed in finery they won't be easy to spot. It could even put Granger's family at risk. Hostage taking was not uncommon back then. And the Guild is certainly going to take a hit over this one financially. I find that with the riches and power that they have there certainly has to be more then just merchants and merchant class involved. So will it be Bertie or Freddie or Davina mixed in with this lot?

 

Westie, is the Guild a real part of history or a fabrication of the story? And if a reality can you give us something on it? No spoilers of course but just more?

 

And the Prince . . . Well he's learning to be a midshipman I guess. I wonder who HE is teaching what? And how will he play into the story? Is he a bit player? Unlikely, is he in this part of the story intrigue or just there to be key in some other portion of the story? Perhaps the Governor who was supposed to accompany him was part of this plot and the Prince foiled it without realizing he was. And if that was the case, was it the King and Queen complicit or a fabrication of the Governor. Will Jardenes know they have absconded with the prize by the time Granger stops back? Will he try and intervene? Will the prince have done his storily duty by their return or does he have more to do?

 

So many possibilities and so little to go on.

 

One thing is for certain, Lord Arbour is certainly not giving anything away on this one. But we need a good battle. Nothing brings the crew back into shape like blowing a few things up.

[impunity]

 

storily duty

 

Love this!

[ricky]

Love this!

That's the great thing about being an author, even a mediocre one, you can claim poetic license. lol

[Westie]

Westie, is the Guild a real part of history or a fabrication of the story? And if a reality can you give us something on it? No spoilers of course but just more?

This is a very interesting question – there are two answers: the long and the short. The short answer is “No”, the organisation called the guild is entirely the creation of our esteemed author. However, as in all good fiction, the fantasy has a nice basis in fact, that we can explore a little now.

 

We can start with the name “the guild”. While I suspect that Mark chose the name because it is a relatively simple name that is at the same time both innocuous but slightly menacing; I would like to think that it had a basis in the reality of the City of London and the Merchant Class. “Guilds” were and are a key part of the City of London – the Livery Companies (Such as the Worshipful Company of Mercers as an example) form a major part of the City of London Corporation and by extension its government.

 

Moreover, the trade relationship that existed between Europe and India right back to 1050 AD was facilitated by – you guessed it – guilds. The Anjuvannam guild is an example of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim merchants working together in a trade partnership, showing that relations between these three faiths were much better in medieval times than would be suggested by the current relationships in the Middle East today.

 

So if a Guild is the (generic) representation of a 1000 year old status quo in India, it stands to reason that the rise of the Honourable East India Company would be a threat to that. You see, people like to imagine that the East India Company (from now on, EIC) pioneered trade between East and West, yet nothing could be further from the truth – from the “Silk Road” in the time of Marco Polo to the Opium trade via Afghanistan, the principal impetus of contact with these nations has been exotic trade.

 

The first thing to understand is that the Honourable East India Company was neither Honourable, nor a company in the traditional sense. Yes, it had shareholders, but its operation was entirely dependent on a relationship with the British Crown, and certain rights and privileges that would be unthinkable today. When I talk about rights such as the right to administer territory, to mint coin, to raise an army, to dispense justice, to build infrastructure, and to confiscate assets – you would think I was talking about a sovereign nation, rather than a company. In reality, a Governor of the EIC had more power than the Monarch within his domain. While the British crown was limited by certain basic laws such as Magna Carta, those laws did not apply within dominions except to British Citizens themselves – and then only loosely. So while the rights of Crown, Parliament, and Judiciary are distinct and irrevocable in the British Isles, those rights were exercised almost exclusively by the Governors.

 

The EIC operated under a royal charter, which gave the company certain rights and prerogatives, in exchange for which it provided duties – taxes – to the crown and compensation to the treasury. At the same time, the monarch (personally), the Crown (i.e. State), and members of the House of Peers (Lords) held shares in the company. They had a vested interest that today would not be tolerated… especially in an age when the smallest conflict has to be declared as part of financial disclosure.

 

So intrinsically was the state linked to the EIC, that the Company absorbed the assets of the Portuguese “Estado de India” as part of the dowry of Catherine of Braganza when she married Charles II.

 

There are not many companies that can enforce their monopoly with a private army (unless you believe New World Order conspiracy theories of course…). It is not surprising that existing or competing interests in indo-oriental trade would plot to destabilise the company or dislodge them from their royal patronage.

 

So, while the answer to your question is “no” the guild is not a historically existing entity, the ideals and attitudes behind it certainly existed amongst some members of the Merchant Class who saw the aristocracy trying to grind them under heel via “John Company”.

 

West

 

PS - On a different topic, there are two exhibitions going on in London this summer if anyone is lucky enough to be visiting the capital of my beloved country. First of all, the Maritime Museum at Greenwich is hosting “Nelson, Navy, Nation” which is an exceptionally well curated look at the man and the era. Secondly, the British Museum is holding “Britain and Bonaparte”, showing some of the patriot propaganda of the Napoleonic era. Well worth a visit.

[Headstall]

This is a very interesting question – there are two answers: the long and the short. The short answer is “No”, the organisation called the guild is entirely the creation of our esteemed author. However, as in all good fiction, the fantasy has a nice basis in fact, that we can explore a little now.

 

We can start with the name “the guild”. While I suspect that Mark chose the name because it is a relatively simple name that is at the same time both innocuous but slightly menacing; I would like to think that it had a basis in the reality of the City of London and the Merchant Class. “Guilds” were and are a key part of the City of London – the Livery Companies (Such as the Worshipful Company of Mercers as an example) form a major part of the City of London Corporation and by extension its government.

 

Moreover, the trade relationship that existed between Europe and India right back to 1050 AD was facilitated by – you guessed it – guilds. The Anjuvannam guild is an example of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim merchants working together in a trade partnership, showing that relations between these three faiths were much better in medieval times than would be suggested by the current relationships in the Middle East today.

 

So if a Guild is the (generic) representation of a 1000 year old status quo in India, it stands to reason that the rise of the Honourable East India Company would be a threat to that. You see, people like to imagine that the East India Company (from now on, EIC) pioneered trade between East and West, yet nothing could be further from the truth – from the “Silk Road” in the time of Marco Polo to the Opium trade via Afghanistan, the principal impetus of contact with these nations has been exotic trade.

 

The first thing to understand is that the Honourable East India Company was neither Honourable, nor a company in the traditional sense. Yes, it had shareholders, but its operation was entirely dependent on a relationship with the British Crown, and certain rights and privileges that would be unthinkable today. When I talk about rights such as the right to administer territory, to mint coin, to raise an army, to dispense justice, to build infrastructure, and to confiscate assets – you would think I was talking about a sovereign nation, rather than a company. In reality, a Governor of the EIC had more power than the Monarch within his domain. While the British crown was limited by certain basic laws such as Magna Carta, those laws did not apply within dominions except to British Citizens themselves – and then only loosely. So while the rights of Crown, Parliament, and Judiciary are distinct and irrevocable in the British Isles, those rights were exercised almost exclusively by the Governors.

 

The EIC operated under a royal charter, which gave the company certain rights and prerogatives, in exchange for which it provided duties – taxes – to the crown and compensation to the treasury. At the same time, the monarch (personally), the Crown (i.e. State), and members of the House of Peers (Lords) held shares in the company. They had a vested interest that today would not be tolerated… especially in an age when the smallest conflict has to be declared as part of financial disclosure.

 

So intrinsically was the state linked to the EIC, that the Company absorbed the assets of the Portuguese “Estado de India” as part of the dowry of Catherine of Braganza when she married Charles II.

 

There are not many companies that can enforce their monopoly with a private army (unless you believe New World Order conspiracy theories of course…). It is not surprising that existing or competing interests in indo-oriental trade would plot to destabilise the company or dislodge them from their royal patronage.

 

So, while the answer to your question is “no” the guild is not a historically existing entity, the ideals and attitudes behind it certainly existed amongst some members of the Merchant Class who saw the aristocracy trying to grind them under heel via “John Company”.

 

West

 

PS - On a different topic, there are two exhibitions going on in London this summer if anyone is lucky enough to be visiting the capital of my beloved country. First of all, the Maritime Museum at Greenwich is hosting “Nelson, Navy, Nation” which is an exceptionally well curated look at the man and the era. Secondly, the British Museum is holding “Britain and Bonaparte”, showing some of the patriot propaganda of the Napoleonic era. Well worth a visit.

That was fascinating... thank you, Westie!

[Timothy M.]

That was fascinating... thank you, Westie!

 

I agree. Thanks.

[ricky]

Thank you Westie, as always a wealth of information. I knew East India Company was powerful but I never knew they had THAT much power. The thought of a company with so much power, in essence the power of the crown fluid and mobile is almost scary.

 

When you say they could build an army are we talking uniformed and proper? Would they have uniforms of the royal services or unique? and when they were no longer needed would they be absorbed by the royal services or disbanded?

 

And the ability to mint coin, that's quite a statement. Would these coins be the same as the realm or would they also be unique? Sounds like a collector's holy grail.

 

It's easy to see how corruption could be rampant and scenario's just like this could easily be a reality. And because so many powerful people were involved and would benefit directly from it, it could easily be overlooked buried or just ignored.

 

Did the crown actually have a secret service at this time? I could see where Daventry could be party to both, the crown and the EIC.

 

I'm not sure why but I just don't trust the character. I don't trust Lord Spencer either. He's obviously in the guilds pocket. His endorsement should flag Daventry as suspect immediately.

Just sayin'

[Westie]

Thank you Westie, as always a wealth of information. I knew East India Company was powerful but I never knew they had THAT much power. The thought of a company with so much power, in essence the power of the crown fluid and mobile is almost scary.

 

When you say they could build an army are we talking uniformed and proper? Would they have uniforms of the royal services or unique? and when they were no longer needed would they be absorbed by the royal services or disbanded?

The Presidency Armies (the Armies of the East India Company) numbered at their peak 271,000 - in a modern setting that would make it the largest military of any country on earth. We should note though that other countries military numbers include Navy forces and other military organisations. It is also more active personnel than the US Army had in 1940. So, suffice to say it was huge.

 

The armies were also standing armies, so they only disbanded in the late 1800's when they were absorbed either into the British Army or the Indian Army.

 

And the ability to mint coin, that's quite a statement. Would these coins be the same as the realm or would they also be unique? Sounds like a collector's holy grail.

 

 

The coinage was separate and distinct from that of Great Britain. There were 12 Pie to an Anna, and 16 Annas to a Rupee. Approximately 15 Rupees made a Mohur. Though at various times, the British in India used gold sovereigns, Guineas, and Pounds.

 

I dare say there are many of these coins that are collectors items, but also many that are fairly common. You can pick some up for around £3 on ebay...

 

Did the crown actually have a secret service at this time? I could see where Daventry could be party to both, the crown and the EIC.

Another interesting question, to which the answer is yes, and no. The "Secret Service" was actually a fund, or budget, used to fund the "sensitive" operations of the foreign office, admiralty, and war office, as well as on behalf of the crown. So while the secret service did not exist as a formal organisation, it certainly existed as a concept at this time

 

I'm not sure why but I just don't trust the character. I don't trust Lord Spencer either. He's obviously in the guilds pocket. His endorsement should flag Daventry as suspect immediately.

Just sayin'

Historically, Spencer was a good man. While he is soon to lose his role as First Lord when the Pitt Ministry falls, he returns to Government as Home Secretary in 1807. Not to mention of course that his 5-times Great Grand-daughter would marry a Prince, and become Diana, Princess of Wales in 1981.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Westie

[ricky]

Wow, it's an interesting history. A lot of old money floating around that many had access to. referencing the secret service "fund" so to speak. And really no way to verify the credentials other then his orders.

 

So what caused the Pitt Ministry to fall? Was it an event or a series of circumstances? It appears that, though a party may be intrenched a well timed scandal could uproot a party. So things are both solidly rooted but also very fragile at the same time.

 

So have you any idea where the story is going with the prince? It's unusual to have a foreign dignitary involved in the story unless he is significant.  So is there anything historical that would match up with where the story is heading? I mean it's been three chapters since he joined and not a peep out of him. I confess, I'm obsessed with finding out. Since we are still in his part of the world it is probably something in the short term.

[Mark Arbour]

This is a very interesting question – there are two answers: the long and the short. The short answer is “No”, the organisation called the guild is entirely the creation of our esteemed author. However, as in all good fiction, the fantasy has a nice basis in fact, that we can explore a little now.

 

We can start with the name “the guild”. While I suspect that Mark chose the name because it is a relatively simple name that is at the same time both innocuous but slightly menacing; I would like to think that it had a basis in the reality of the City of London and the Merchant Class. “Guilds” were and are a key part of the City of London – the Livery Companies (Such as the Worshipful Company of Mercers as an example) form a major part of the City of London Corporation and by extension its government.

 

Moreover, the trade relationship that existed between Europe and India right back to 1050 AD was facilitated by – you guessed it – guilds. The Anjuvannam guild is an example of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim merchants working together in a trade partnership, showing that relations between these three faiths were much better in medieval times than would be suggested by the current relationships in the Middle East today.

 

So if a Guild is the (generic) representation of a 1000 year old status quo in India, it stands to reason that the rise of the Honourable East India Company would be a threat to that. You see, people like to imagine that the East India Company (from now on, EIC) pioneered trade between East and West, yet nothing could be further from the truth – from the “Silk Road” in the time of Marco Polo to the Opium trade via Afghanistan, the principal impetus of contact with these nations has been exotic trade.

 

The first thing to understand is that the Honourable East India Company was neither Honourable, nor a company in the traditional sense. Yes, it had shareholders, but its operation was entirely dependent on a relationship with the British Crown, and certain rights and privileges that would be unthinkable today. When I talk about rights such as the right to administer territory, to mint coin, to raise an army, to dispense justice, to build infrastructure, and to confiscate assets – you would think I was talking about a sovereign nation, rather than a company. In reality, a Governor of the EIC had more power than the Monarch within his domain. While the British crown was limited by certain basic laws such as Magna Carta, those laws did not apply within dominions except to British Citizens themselves – and then only loosely. So while the rights of Crown, Parliament, and Judiciary are distinct and irrevocable in the British Isles, those rights were exercised almost exclusively by the Governors.

 

The EIC operated under a royal charter, which gave the company certain rights and prerogatives, in exchange for which it provided duties – taxes – to the crown and compensation to the treasury. At the same time, the monarch (personally), the Crown (i.e. State), and members of the House of Peers (Lords) held shares in the company. They had a vested interest that today would not be tolerated… especially in an age when the smallest conflict has to be declared as part of financial disclosure.

 

So intrinsically was the state linked to the EIC, that the Company absorbed the assets of the Portuguese “Estado de India” as part of the dowry of Catherine of Braganza when she married Charles II.

 

There are not many companies that can enforce their monopoly with a private army (unless you believe New World Order conspiracy theories of course…). It is not surprising that existing or competing interests in indo-oriental trade would plot to destabilise the company or dislodge them from their royal patronage.

 

So, while the answer to your question is “no” the guild is not a historically existing entity, the ideals and attitudes behind it certainly existed amongst some members of the Merchant Class who saw the aristocracy trying to grind them under heel via “John Company”.

 

West

 

PS - On a different topic, there are two exhibitions going on in London this summer if anyone is lucky enough to be visiting the capital of my beloved country. First of all, the Maritime Museum at Greenwich is hosting “Nelson, Navy, Nation” which is an exceptionally well curated look at the man and the era. Secondly, the British Museum is holding “Britain and Bonaparte”, showing some of the patriot propaganda of the Napoleonic era. Well worth a visit.

 

You are just so damn sexy.

[Westie]

So what caused the Pitt Ministry to fall? Was it an event or a series of circumstances? It appears that, though a party may be intrenched a well timed scandal could uproot a party. So things are both solidly rooted but also very fragile at the same time.

it was nothing so beautiful as a scandal, I'm afraid. Pitt resigned on a matter of Policy and principle, due to fundamental differences with the King on Catholic Emancipation in Ireland, related to the recently passed Act of Union. His brother, Lord Chatham (who we should remember as Spencer's predecessor as First Lord) remained in the cabinet as part of the Addington Ministry, alongside the new First Lord (who will be yet another familiar face...)

 

So have you any idea where the story is going with the prince? It's unusual to have a foreign dignitary involved in the story unless he is significant.  So is there anything historical that would match up with where the story is heading? I mean it's been three chapters since he joined and not a peep out of him. I confess, I'm obsessed with finding out. Since we are still in his part of the world it is probably something in the short term.

It is not unusual for Mark to pick up some aristocrat to add to the crew who may serve only a minor purpose... why might it not be the same with such a Prince? As to where I think the story is heading from a historical perpective... well... spoilers ;-)

Edited August 4, 2015 by Westie

[Headstall]

it was nothing so beautiful as a scandal, I'm afraid. Pitt resigned on a matter of Policy and principle, due to fundamental differences with the King on Catholic Emancipation in Ireland, related to the recently passed Act of Union. His brother, Lord Chatham (who we should remember as Spencer's predecessor as First Lord) remained in the cabinet as part of the Addington Ministry, alongside the new First Lord (who will be yet another familiar face...)

 

 

It is not unusual for Mark to pick up some aristocrat to add to the crew who may serve only a minor purpose... why might it not be the same with such a Prince? As to where I think the story is heading from a historical perpective... well... spoilers ;-)

Mark is right... you are damn sexy

[ricky]

Well one thing we can all agree on is Westie is flat out sexy.

Thanks!

[Mark Arbour]

Mark is right... you are damn sexy

 

He usually is.

[Headstall]

He usually is.

And so humble too.

[Westie]

He usually is.

Wait wait.... you're usually right, or I'm usually sexy?

[impunity]

Wait wait.... you're usually right, or I'm usually sexy?

Ha! That's what I was wondering.

[Headstall]

Wait wait.... you're usually right, or I'm usually sexy?

I think it's both

[Daddydavek]

Just speculating that Westie's input or review went into Mark's explanation of Granger's political views in the latest chapter.

[Mark Arbour]

Just speculating that Westie's input or review went into Mark's explanation of Granger's political views in the latest chapter.

 

Actually, you'd be wrong about that.  My fun reading this summer has been on the politics/fashions of that era.  I've read several general books and five biographies:  The Prince of Wales/George IV, Beau Brummel, Lord Castlereagh, The Duke of Wellington, and William Pitt the Younger.  I also read much of Henry Greville's memoirs, but those affect a later era. 

[Westie]

Just speculating that Westie's input or review went into Mark's explanation of Granger's political views in the latest chapter.

To speculate thus would give me far, far more credit than I deserve. For my own part, my summer reading has actually concentrated on the war of the roses and the Plantagenet succession for a project I have in mind.... my head at the moment is in another era

[Westie]

Just speculating that Westie's input or review went into Mark's explanation of Granger's political views in the latest chapter.

OK, so now I have more time on this... for my own input I would in fact have preferred it if George was a Tory, rather than having Whig sympathies as this is more in line with my own personal views. I am a card carrying member of the UK conservative Party who are the political successors of the Tories. However, the situation Granger describes pretty much aligns him with Pitt the Younger. A Tory by birth and social inclination, Pitt often described himself as an "independent whig". His leadership of the Tory party sowed the seeds of "progressive" conservatism, which lead to today's Conservative Party actually being one of the more progressive Parties in UK politics in some areas. It was the first party to elect a Jew as leader (Benjamin Disreali), a woman leader (Thatcher), and was the party that decriminalised sodomy and allowed Gay Marriage in the UK.

 

Note that there is no inkling from George that the Pitt Ministry is soon to fall, but the hint that "Catholic Emancipation" lacked the support of the King shows the difficulties that would lead to a government collapse are already being sown. By the way, if this were to happen today - that Her Majesty the Queen would publicly oppose a government policy, it is likely that the government would also fall and that there would be a constitutional crisis. In all likelihood, election s would follow that would effectively be seen as a referendum on whether to give the government a mandate to push forward.

[Mark Arbour]

OK, so now I have more time on this... for my own input I would in fact have preferred it if George was a Tory, rather than having Whig sympathies as this is more in line with my own personal views. I am a card carrying member of the UK conservative Party who are the political successors of the Tories. However, the situation Granger describes pretty much aligns him with Pitt the Younger. A Tory by birth and social inclination, Pitt often described himself as an "independent whig". His leadership of the Tory party sowed the seeds of "progressive" conservatism, which lead to today's Conservative Party actually being one of the more progressive Parties in UK politics in some areas. It was the first party to elect a Jew as leader (Benjamin Disreali), a woman leader (Thatcher), and was the party that decriminalised sodomy and allowed Gay Marriage in the UK.

 

Note that there is no inkling from George that the Pitt Ministry is soon to fall, but the hint that "Catholic Emancipation" lacked the support of the King shows the difficulties that would lead to a government collapse are already being sown. By the way, if this were to happen today - that Her Majesty the Queen would publicly oppose a government policy, it is likely that the government would also fall and that there would be a constitutional crisis. In all likelihood, election s would follow that would effectively be seen as a referendum on whether to give the government a mandate to push forward.

 

For our American readers, let's remember to distinguish between the Tories in Britain and the Republicans over here.  A different breed.

 

I think it makes sense for George to be a Whig.  He fits in nicely with the big Whig grandees of the era.  I'm not sure that it's entirely reasonable that he's a Whig while his father and brother are Tories (it seemed to be much more of a family affair back then), but as you noted, since party lines were much more blurred, it seems to work.

[Netvoyager]

Mark,

The Bridgemont series is excellent! I check everyday for a new chapter...alas, I am usually frustrated when I see Black Widow posted much more frequently than HMS Valiant. I wish you might be able to spend a little more time on George than on the teen angst episodes. Thank you for writing a great story (you should really consider publishing it when it's finished). Again, thank you for many hours of pure reading enjoyment.

Jim

[ricky]

Mark,

The Bridgemont series is excellent! I check everyday for a new chapter...alas, I am usually frustrated when I see Black Widow posted much more frequently than HMS Valiant. I wish you might be able to spend a little more time on George than on the teen angst episodes. Thank you for writing a great story (you should really consider publishing it when it's finished). Again, thank you for many hours of pure reading enjoyment.

Jim

 

High Jim and welcome.

This has been approached before in some of the other books and I am sure that you were not here for that so let me fill you in on the reasons for it. It won't curb your frustrations but it will explain the reasons for it.

 

The CAP series is completely fictional although it touches historical points in the timeline. That makes it a faster write.  Part of what makes the HMS series so fantastic is it's attention to real life detail especially in regards to ship life. And it is woven neatly ind intricately into history and the great battles that have occurred. That being said, it requires a great deal more research to produce a chapter then the CAP series. And his incredible staff checks and rechecks the historical accuracy of things large and small. Things that may come back to bite the story in the ass if it was fudged.

 

So yes it's frustrating to see the CAP chapters fly up like lego's in a 10 year olds hands but there is a reason for it. I hope this helps your understanding of it. He's not neglecting the story, he's just keeping the integrity to the incredible standard he has already set. If it's any consolation, I think four chapters of CAP is the most I've seen without a chapter of HMS. So we should see a chapter in the next few days I suspect.

 

Once again Jim, welcome to our little family of HMS addicts, be welcome.