HMS Valiant

[Mark Arbour]

High Jim and welcome.

This has been approached before in some of the other books and I am sure that you were not here for that so let me fill you in on the reasons for it. It won't curb your frustrations but it will explain the reasons for it.

 

The CAP series is completely fictional although it touches historical points in the timeline. That makes it a faster write.  Part of what makes the HMS series so fantastic is it's attention to real life detail especially in regards to ship life. And it is woven neatly ind intricately into history and the great battles that have occurred. That being said, it requires a great deal more research to produce a chapter then the CAP series. And his incredible staff checks and rechecks the historical accuracy of things large and small. Things that may come back to bite the story in the ass if it was fudged.

 

So yes it's frustrating to see the CAP chapters fly up like lego's in a 10 year olds hands but there is a reason for it. I hope this helps your understanding of it. He's not neglecting the story, he's just keeping the integrity to the incredible standard he has already set. If it's any consolation, I think four chapters of CAP is the most I've seen without a chapter of HMS. So we should see a chapter in the next few days I suspect.

 

Once again Jim, welcome to our little family of HMS addicts, be welcome.

 

Thanks Ricky, for explaining that.  Good news is that the next chapter should hit very soon.  It's almost done.

[impunity]

Good news is that the next chapter should hit very soon.

And it did! Thanks, hon.

[ricky]

Another great chapter. You know Mark I have learned so much about UK history from reading this story. The task of guessing what is next causes me to research significant events for the year. And it's amazing how many names I recognize in both birth's and death's for the year. And I'm enjoying it so very much, thank you.

Names well known in the story like jardines, Robinson, Freemantle, Caendish, Darby.

Fascinating!

 

Now, As for the story. Still nothing from our elusive royal midshipmen! A red herring? Perhaps but not normally Mark's style. I wonder what will be next. I loved the battles of the smaller ships. I guess it's like that for the captain's too. The older they get the bigger the ship, the fewer the skirmishes. The longing for conquest! You've conveyed that very well Mark. Daventry's story is still not complete, there is much yet to occur.

 

Loving it.

[Headstall]

Another great chapter. Daventry intrigues me.

[ricky]

Another great chapter. Daventry intrigues me.

 

I don't trust him. He operates under the radar. Such men think nothing of leaving someone hanging. And although Granger is powerful but he is also powerful enough to withstand scandle especially if he feels he is doing something to benefit the king.

[Daddydavek]

I don't trust him. He operates under the radar. Such men think nothing of leaving someone hanging. And although Granger is powerful but he is also powerful enough to withstand scandle especially if he feels he is doing something to benefit the king.

I think that is why George is treading very carefully and agreed to the demand not to inform Nelson...

[ricky]

I'm getting that itch in my ear. That usually means a chapter is about to burst forth. I've had it for a couple days so it should be near.

OR I just have itchy ears for some reason.

Mark could be busy with life though as I've not seen any chapters for CAP posted either. I hope all is well with you and yours Mark.

[ricky]

Glad to see I'm not losing my touch!

A fantastic chapter Mark. And it looks like we may have some action at hand. I wonder if our prince will show up on deck in HIS royal uniform to be seen by the Orainians. Would that be enough to make them stop? Risking a war with his people? Just a thought. I don't know that he had uniforms of his own or had British one's made. Westie, how would that work? Would he wear his own countries uniforms? He's there on a temporary basis isn't he?

 

Perhaps the squall will come up just the right time and give Granger the advantage he needs to thwart the enemy. Since they're not at war, taking prizes would not benefit them but it won't do for these barbarians with no sense of diplomacy or civilized behavior to have two ships of the line to constantly be belligerent with either.

 

So they were looking for him, are they aware of the treasure? Now that would make the cheese more binding wouldn't it? How did they know they were coming? How did they know to watch for them? This is indeed an interesting development. Did Daventry's men run afoul and give up the information? Not many knew of the treasure. And this is a sizeable force, larger then normal for them and out to sea a good ways.

 

More intrigue. Somehow I think the answers are written on cannon balls for this one though.

[impunity]

Glad to see I'm not losing my touch.

Yes, how exactly do you do that?

[ricky]

Yes, how exactly do you do that?

It ran in my family. Intuition. Made me a little unpopular in high screwl. I was sitting in history once, and had a flash vision. poked Don, the kid in front of me. I had to say something, better to be wrong then to have regrets. This was a first but I recognized the vision as one of the ones that would come true. So Don turned around, he wasn't my friend, but not my enemy either. I was poor and an outcast, he was popular but not unkind. I simply said, "Don, you can't go. If you do Diane will die." The bell rang and they immediately had a fight in the hall over who opened their mouth about cutting school and going to Marde Gras. He cornered me later and asked me WTF. I told him I had a Lucid dream. It was dark, raining a truck, a wreck and Diane would die. He promptly told me I was whacked. Long story short, they went, two weeks later Don and I sat on the steps of the school and cried. She was ejected during the wreck. It was exactly as I had described.

 

People are always afraid you can see their secrets. It doesn't make you popular. For me it was just more isolation. I was a reminder to Don so he even avoided me. I learned to bury it. Or at least ignore it. There were many other times but that was one of the most significant ones. It's also how I knew every time my foster son was trying to commit suicide.I always knew. Got to him in time. 6 or 7 times at least. Thank God he stopped wanting to die. I love him and am so proud of him. He is doing well today.

 

It's not something I really control. I'm much happier when it is used for things like new chapters. Like it's knowing the next chapter is already written and we won't have to wait as long. I think he could have posted them both together if he had desired. Just a feeling.

Edited September 29, 2015 by ricky

[Westie]

Glad to see I'm not losing my touch!

A fantastic chapter Mark. And it looks like we may have some action at hand. I wonder if our prince will show up on deck in HIS royal uniform to be seen by the Orainians. Would that be enough to make them stop? Risking a war with his people? Just a thought. I don't know that he had uniforms of his own or had British one's made. Westie, how would that work? Would he wear his own countries uniforms? He's there on a temporary basis isn't he?

 

Perhaps the squall will come up just the right time and give Granger the advantage he needs to thwart the enemy. Since they're not at war, taking prizes would not benefit them but it won't do for these barbarians with no sense of diplomacy or civilized behavior to have two ships of the line to constantly be belligerent with either.

 

So they were looking for him, are they aware of the treasure? Now that would make the cheese more binding wouldn't it? How did they know they were coming? How did they know to watch for them? This is indeed an interesting development. Did Daventry's men run afoul and give up the information? Not many knew of the treasure. And this is a sizeable force, larger then normal for them and out to sea a good ways.

 

More intrigue. Somehow I think the answers are written on cannon balls for this one though.

 

Before I start, I should just say that I am replying to this from a train, currently between Bratislava in Slovakia and Brno in the Czech Republic, having started out from Budapest this morning.  I mention this for two reasons - the first is obviously to brag, but the second is that I don't have a full access to my usual references.  That said, I think I can answer your questions regardless with around 95% certainty, so here goes:

 

Firstly, I'm not sure why you assume that the Prince is anything more than a tool used for a specific story element... I didn't get the impression he was anything important and apart from being "there" in the background, I doubt he would have any major part to play.

 

If however he DID appear on deck in a Neapolitan Navy Uniform, two things would happen.  The first would be a court martial: He is a kings officer improperly dressed.  He is an ally, but in paid service to the British Sovereign, and so outside of his own territory he owed his loyalty, life, and honour entirely and absolutely to George III.  I can think of a number of foreign captains who wore British colours, but I think it would be unthinkable - except in some very specific circumstances - to wear the uniform of another country.  The second thing that would happen is.... (in relation to the pirates).... Nothing.  If they recognised the uniform, they would know Naples to be a country in turmoil.  The French were occupying most of Italy, and within 3 months of this chapter, we will see the fall of Naples itself - with a republic declared.  The King (Ferdinand I) would have to retreat to his other Kingdom of Sicily to stage the fight to restore his throne.  It is incredibly unlikely that the Oranians would feel any threat whatsoever from Naples, and indeed might welcome an excuse to further harass trade in the region.

 

I'm not sure the Oranians needed to "know" about the treasure.  It would be enough that they knew Granger was in the region - they would have been keeping an enhanced look out.  Moreover, they pretty much made a day-job out of piracy anyway, so its more likely than not that they just stumbled onto the convoy.

[ricky]

Before I start, I should just say that I am replying to this from a train, currently between Bratislava in Slovakia and Brno in the Czech Republic, having started out from Budapest this morning.  I mention this for two reasons - the first is obviously to brag, but the second is that I don't have a full access to my usual references.  That said, I think I can answer your questions regardless with around 95% certainty, so here goes:

 

Firstly, I'm not sure why you assume that the Prince is anything more than a tool used for a specific story element... I didn't get the impression he was anything important and apart from being "there" in the background, I doubt he would have any major part to play.

 

If however he DID appear on deck in a Neapolitan Navy Uniform, two things would happen.  The first would be a court martial: He is a kings officer improperly dressed.  He is an ally, but in paid service to the British Sovereign, and so outside of his own territory he owed his loyalty, life, and honour entirely and absolutely to George III.  I can think of a number of foreign captains who wore British colours, but I think it would be unthinkable - except in some very specific circumstances - to wear the uniform of another country.  The second thing that would happen is.... (in relation to the pirates).... Nothing.  If they recognised the uniform, they would know Naples to be a country in turmoil.  The French were occupying most of Italy, and within 3 months of this chapter, we will see the fall of Naples itself - with a republic declared.  The King (Ferdinand I) would have to retreat to his other Kingdom of Sicily to stage the fight to restore his throne.  It is incredibly unlikely that the Oranians would feel any threat whatsoever from Naples, and indeed might welcome an excuse to further harass trade in the region.

 

I'm not sure the Oranians needed to "know" about the treasure.  It would be enough that they knew Granger was in the region - they would have been keeping an enhanced look out.  Moreover, they pretty much made a day-job out of piracy anyway, so its more likely than not that they just stumbled onto the convoy.

 

Thanks for that. I guess that I didn't see it as him having joined the Royal Navy as much as attached to them for a period of time to learn. And they had their own navy but I did not know how large or feared they might be at this time. We have guest nations serve to learn here all the time and they continue to wear the uniforms of their country so not having any other point of reference made me question. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

And yes, I'm jealous. Lucky dog.

[Westie]

Thanks for that. I guess that I didn't see it as him having joined the Royal Navy as much as attached to them for a period of time to learn. And they had their own navy but I did not know how large or feared they might be at this time. We have guest nations serve to learn here all the time and they continue to wear the uniforms of their country so not having any other point of reference made me question. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

And yes, I'm jealous. Lucky dog.

It's an interesting point that these days allies will work with "guest nations" - what you have to remember though is that even with current turmoil, we live in a time of unprecedented stability in Europe. Being an ally is a much more permanent proposition today than it was during the Napoleonic wars. Over a twenty year period for example, Russia was alternately Britain's ally, then enemy, then ally. Within the following 100 years, we would both go to war with Russia, yet also supply a wife for the Czar.

 

What I'm trying to say is, that in a world where friendships could be broken in an instant, you allow foreigners only the smallest crack in the door of your armed forces. Those that do serve, you make sure owe their fealty to you and not their own country where possible.

[Westie]

Oh... one final point. I would just like to wish a very happy 257th birthday to Admiral Horatio Nelson :-) being away made me lose track of days!

Edited September 30, 2015 by Westie

[Daddydavek]

Sorry for my blank posted review for the latest chapter of Valiant.   I was on my tablet and my finger must have brushed the post button before I could input my comment.

 

I meant to say that I enjoyed the chapter and the usual British naval politics as portrayed and am looking forward to how Granger deals with the oncoming confrontation....

 

And more please!

Edited October 1, 2015 by Daddydavek

[impunity]

I meant to say that I enjoyed the chapter and the usual British naval politics as portrayed and am looking forward to how Granger deals with the oncoming confrontation....

No plea for more?

[Daddydavek]

No plea for more?

I edited my remarks to clarify that I definitely want more!

[impunity]

I edited my remarks to clarify that I definitely want more!

Not that there was ever any doubt.

[Headstall]

Not that there was ever any doubt.

Yes... to borrow from DDK.... more please... a sea battle would be nice

[ricky]

Yes... to borrow from DDK.... more please... a sea battle would be nice

 

Oh yes, a sea battle is a must!

 

Westie, another question. This time on a term. "All Plain Sails" Was thinking that I didn't really know it I understood the term. Is that all the square or rectangular sails? Minus studding sails and such?

[Westie]

Oh yes, a sea battle is a must!

 

Westie, another question. This time on a term. "All Plain Sails" Was thinking that I didn't really know it I understood the term. Is that all the square or rectangular sails? Minus studding sails and such?

 

I'm not sure which common phrase you are referring to here - as there are two similar.  "all plain sailing" and "all [under] plain sail".  I will answer both here - but I suspect you mean the second one.  I will explain that one last though, because the meaning logically follows from the first.

 

The origin of the phrase "plain sailing" actually does not relate to the "sails" of a ship as such.  While we now know the word "plain" to mean "ordinary" and "Plane" to mean a flat surface, up until the mid 1800s spelling was not considered too big of a deal, so "plain" and "plane" were used interchangeably.  Anyone who has read Queen Victoria's letters for example will tell you that even at the apex of society, it was quite acceptable to spell a word 3 different ways in the same letter.  

 

"Plain" sailing actually uses both these meanings... that the sailing was "plane" - flat, without incident, calm.  it was also "plain" - ordinary, nothing amiss, nothing untoward.

 

Now, when a ship was "under plain sails", it takes a similar meaning as above - "ordinary".  Plain Sails are the daily working sails of a ship, as opposed to sails that one might use for ceremonial purposes.  It was in fact a point of pride in the navy that the British has "plain" sails - the French usually had pristine sails on their ships, which of course was taken to mean that they spent more time in harbour than doing any real "sailing".

 

Hope that helps!

Edited October 1, 2015 by Westie

[ricky]

I'm not sure that I understand in the context of the story. Rereading Master and commander and Granger tells Calvert to weigh anchor and "I want all plain sail set." How is that different then what they would normally do? And here I did not go back to ascertain which plane /plain was used as I am listening to it, not reading it.

[Westie]

I'm not sure that I understand in the context of the story. Rereading Master and commander and Granger tells Calvert to weigh anchor and "I want all plain sail set." How is that different then what they would normally do? And here I did not go back to ascertain which plane /plain was used as I am listening to it, not reading it.

 

Ahhh, so in that context, to set "all" plain sails is to set the entire suite of "ordinary" sails on the ship.  Most of the time, a ship would be under limited sail, because depending on the wind a larger sail can actually cause more resistance/drag, than it benefits from being set.  

[ricky]

Told ya.

 

A great chapter as always Mark. And a brilliant battle. I love a good battle and we haven't had a good one for a while so this was well received. I am a little confused. When did we acquire Mr Clifton again at sea? I would think that Granger would have hosted him to his bed more often were he there. The last I saw of him was in the beginning when they had to deal with the Treadway bit. But I was under the impression he went back ashore. If was just odd to hear him given orders during the battle.

[Mark Arbour]

Told ya.

 

A great chapter as always Mark. And a brilliant battle. I love a good battle and we haven't had a good one for a while so this was well received. I am a little confused. When did we acquire Mr Clifton again at sea? I would think that Granger would have hosted him to his bed more often were he there. The last I saw of him was in the beginning when they had to deal with the Treadway bit. But I was under the impression he went back ashore. If was just odd to hear him given orders during the battle.

 

Clifton has never slept with Granger, or with another man, as far as we know.