What are your biggest pet peeves when you're critiquing other writer's work?

[LJCC]

When you take on the task of reviewing projects for friends or others, what are the things that make you want to tear your hair out?

And when it comes to editing your own work, what are the things that send you spiraling into a state of absolute madness?

Editing/Beta-Reading Other's Work:

• The absurd names that make me play a never-ending game of memory gymnastics! Xavanderasmus, Reliquariatosian, Obericantiana... Seriously, who comes up with these tongue-twisters? In my mind, they'll forever be X, R, and O, because I simply can't be bothered to untangle their full names every single time. It's like a mild annoyance that prickles at me, just waiting for the next time I have to stumble through those syllables.
  • ON a SIDENOTE: the Silmarillion may be a treasure trove of epic lore, but that's precisely why it remains untouched on my bookshelf. It's like a labyrinth of bizarre names that never seem to end, and man, does it drain the life out of me trying to keep up with all of them. It's like a never-ending marathon of mental exhaustion, and I just can't bear the thought of diving into that name-filled abyss.
• When every character in a story starts blending together like a bland soup and their personalities and voices become a copy-paste job, it's like a one-way ticket to amnesia. I'd be like, "Who's that character again?" And if you add some good ol' head-hopping into the mix, well, that's when I'm ready to throw in the towel and call it a day. I can put up with a lot, but if I can't distinguish your characters or muster up an ounce of care for them, then my motivation to keep reading takes a nosedive.

When critiquing my own work:

• Ah, the joys of proofreading my own writing for what feels like the gazillionth time, only to stumble upon a sneaky little verb that decided to play hide-and-seek. Seriously, why on earth did my eyes fail to spot it during the other 99 rounds of scrutiny? It's like my brain was having a laugh at my expense, keeping that missing verb under wraps until the perfect moment to drive me bonkers.
• Also, repeating words:
  • He came to play yesterday, and when Hanna asked to play with me today, and when I told Etzy to play with us, we just decided to play each other in a fight to the death, for this is SPARTA!
  • Yeah, I hate missing out on repeating verbs or descriptions. 

[ReaderPaul]

As a reader, I greatly dislike the overuse of the word "said."  Example: Sherriff Pete said Deputy Jones said the victim said that the perpetrator was about 6 feet tall, with blonde hair.  Then Sheriff Pete said that Deputy Adams reviewed the evidence in the room.  When the reporter asked about motive, Sheriff Pete said...

Or--

"I said, James said that Herb is blonde all over!"
"He is," Joseph said.
"We saw that when he was nude," Ralph said.
"But Joe said his pubic roots are red," Darwin said....

[Mikiesboy]

Repeated words.  I keep a list of commonly overused words such as look, turn, just, like, nice, and many more. Once I finish writing I use Find and Replace on each chapter, with my trusty thesaurus to root them out and change them.

I have to agree in connection with names I cannot pronounce, I don't like them. I may not even read the story if I see names that are brain twisters. They just put me off.

Regarding speech tags such as said, asked and others, I rarely use them. There are other ways to convey who is speaking that make the story more interesting.

Proofreading your own work is aided by time. Leaving your work for a number of weeks or better, months, let's you see it with fresh eyes.

I've found that even with the best editors and beta readers, there is always something that's missed.  It's just the nature of the beast and our brains.

 

[LJCC]

On 3/2/2024 at 7:02 AM, ReaderPaul said:

As a reader, I greatly dislike the overuse of the word "said."  Example: Sherriff Pete said Deputy Jones said the victim said that the perpetrator was about 6 feet tall, with blonde hair.  Then Sheriff Pete said that Deputy Adams reviewed the evidence in the room.  When the reporter asked about motive, Sheriff Pete said...

Or--

"I said, James said that Herb is blonde all over!"
"He is," Joseph said.
"We saw that when he was nude," Ralph said.
"But Joe said his pubic roots are red," Darwin said....

I totally agree. When I edited your example, it totally changed when I altered the dialogue tags and included the word "said" as part of the dialogue. 

"I said..." James pondered whether to admit what he'd seen or not. "Er, I mean, THEY said that Herb is blonde all over!"
"He is." Joseph nodded, helplessly eyeing anything but their faces—his friend's faces. Truth was, he was hiding a boner when they saw Herb's whorly bush.
"We saw that when he was nude." Ralph looked up, coyfully shrugging off the admission.
"But Joe said his pubic roots were red," Darwin muttered.

I feel like excessive dialog tags do take the readers out of immersion. Also, writers sometimes forget that dialog tags are also used to denote a sequence of actions.

• "Hold up," he said, gripping her arm tightly.
  • This suggests that the events occur simultaneously, whereas:
• "Wait." He swiftly snatched his arm away.
  • Implies that the action is sequential.

Edited March 3, 2024 by LJCC

[LJCC]

9 hours ago, Mikiesboy said:

Repeated words.  I keep a list of commonly overused words such as look, turn, just, like, nice, and many more. Once I finish writing I use Find and Replace on each chapter, with my trusty thesaurus to root them out and change them.

I have to agree in connection with names I cannot pronounce, I don't like them. I may not even read the story if I see names that are brain twisters. They just put me off.

Regarding speech tags such as said, asked and others, I rarely use them. There are other ways to convey who is speaking that make the story more interesting.

Proofreading your own work is aided by time. Leaving your work for a number of weeks or better, months, let's you see it with fresh eyes.

I've found that even with the best editors and beta readers, there is always something that's missed.  It's just the nature of the beast and our brains.

 

This is so true when proofreading your own work. Heck, I might even see something I'd missed out on from reading my own work today and yesterday. There would be moments where I'm reading a passage of a paragraph and an entire two-sentence plot enters my brain that changes the course of the story for the better; that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't read my story repeatedly.

There are days when I read my own work from the last paragraph I wrote. And sometimes, my brain would just inform me to read everything from the start, like, "You just wrote an important scene. Read everything to know if it's cohesive," at which point I'd be catching certain words or phrases that needed editing in that single read-through. I think that's where the magic of editing comes from. You, as a writer, literally have the control to weave the story in whatever fabric you choose. 

[Mike Carss]

9 hours ago, LJCC said:

"He is," Joseph nodded, helplessly eyeing anything but their faces—his friend's faces. Truth was, he was hiding a boner when they saw Herb's whorly bush.

Haha! Great example, however be careful with your punctuation in this case. A person can't speak by nodding, however using a comma after "He is," implies it.

But yeah, the examples in your first post pretty much mirror my own pet peeves. While I've not edited other author's work, I've read enough stories with impossible to pronounce names.

Proofreading is a hell all its own. It's amazing how our brains always seem to miss those small errors. 🤪 For my last novel, I used https://quillbot.com/grammar-check on my final draft to catch any remaining goofs, and it found a handful I'd missed.

[ReaderPaul]

1 hour ago, mcarss said:

     Haha!  Great example, however be careful with your punctuation in this case.  A person can't speak by nodding, however using a comma after "He is," implies it.
     But yeah, the examples in your first post pretty much mirror my own pet peeves.  While I've not edited other author's work, I've read enough stories with impossible to pronounce names.
     Proofreading is a hell all its own.  It's amazing how our brains always seem to miss those small errors.   🤪 For my last novel, I used https://quillbot.com/grammar-check on my final draft to catch any remaining goofs, and it found a handful I'd missed.

Proofreading and beta reading are indeed a different world.  I was beta reading and doing some editing for an acquaintance who would not pay attention to "minor things like grammar and consistency." He used a few of my edits, but then changed the story to make it even less consistent.  He died before getting even halfway through the story.

I beta read, for a cousin, three of her books which ended up published by a semi-major print publisher.  She had a great grasp of grammar and consistency, but tended to use drab explanation of colors in descriptive events where colors were required.

If the person one is editing for or beta reading for is reasonable it can be fun.  Another friend writes and has had books self-published, but refuses to let anyone else edit or beta read for him.  This results in having some sequences confusing because he assumes everyone knows what was happening in his mind when he wrote the passage.  It can be confusing to read his novels because of that.  His short stories, on the other hand, are clear.

 

[LJCC]

11 hours ago, mcarss said:

Haha! Great example, however be careful with your punctuation in this case. A person can't speak by nodding, however using a comma after "He is," implies it.

But yeah, the examples in your first post pretty much mirror my own pet peeves. While I've not edited other author's work, I've read enough stories with impossible to pronounce names.

Proofreading is a hell all its own. It's amazing how our brains always seem to miss those small errors. 🤪 For my last novel, I used https://quillbot.com/grammar-check on my final draft to catch any remaining goofs, and it found a handful I'd missed.

Thanks for noticing. I put a period to fix it. I certainly missed that.

Editing Error 101. 🤣

[Libby Drew]

I suppose my pet peeve (when I beta read and edited) was to work with an author who requested feedback... but didn't truly want any. I don't expect a writer to implement every content edit I suggested. I do, however, expect them to, at least, consider those suggestions. Or pretend to consider them. 

There is a fine line between mechanics, art and ego. Don't ask for an editor if all you want is a cheerleader. 

 

"Said" is largely invisible to the reader. It should be your default dialogue tag, especially when there are several people speaking. "Said" allows the dialogue itself to do the heavy lifting. However, as discussed above, I eliminate it when possible. Superfluous is superfluous. 😉

 

I can be horrible at word/phrase repetition, especially if the segment in question was penned in one session. Depending on the day, certain words and phrases stick in my head and sneak into my writing over and over again. Time is your best friend here. Step back from completed chapters/stories for several weeks, then reread. That's when you catch these things. 

[Ron]

There is a paid program called SmartEdit that works with Microsoft Word that can be used to catch repeated words, too. They used to have a free version called SmartEdit Light, but no longer. I have used the free version (I guess once you have it, they can't take it back) to catch overuse of certain words and the dreaded "there - they're - their" mistake that occasionally pops up even when you know better. There is a free trial of SmartEdit if anyone wants to try it out.

[drown]

I'm not sure I should be talking here. I just transitioned all my writing from Ulysses to Writer and did some "tidying". I ended up re-reading every chapter of my ongoing story. Ugh. 😅 That was eye-opening. For my first story, this is still the way to go, but the next one (which is in the works!) will be finished before I start publishing.

Character voice over everything. I expect exceptional character voice. When the character is confused, I expect the writing to be confused (unless third person omniscient). Immerse me! Let your characters shine. I need to remember them.

Names that don't fit. Like @LJCC said, stop confusing me with names that I could never remember, no matter how much I like the story. It gets more tricky though. Sometimes I like a story very much, but the names just don't fit the character, so they don't attach in my mind. This is extra labor I would really like to avoid.

Don't jump tenses! Though this is just lack of editing, and could be summed up like that. Hone your craft.

"said". As @Libby Drew said (lol), it's usually better to pick "said" when in doubt. It blends into the background. Just don't repeat it over and over again if unnecessary. Unless it's for comedic value, and used with intent.

For example, I wouldn't change this bit I wrote to end a chapter—those saids are placed deliberately.

Quote

And just like that, he entered the kitchen.

“This guy just smelled you,” Clara said.

“What?” Dave said.

“What?” I said.

Yup.

I use Syntax highlighting and Style Check from iA Writer (has nothing to do with AI) while self-editing to find Adjectives, Nouns, Adverbs, Verbs, and Conjunctions. It will also strike out Fillers, Clichés, and Redundancies. I turn this mode on while editing, and then intelligently decide if things flow well, and which of the marked words to keep for a reason. It gives a nice visual representation while editing and is a really important tool to me.

Looks like this:

(I'd really like to edit a story for someone else. Or beta read.)

[LJCC]

On 3/3/2024 at 3:10 PM, Libby Drew said:

I suppose my pet peeve (when I beta read and edited) was to work with an author who requested feedback... but didn't truly want any. I don't expect a writer to implement every content edit I suggested. I do, however, expect them to, at least, consider those suggestions. Or pretend to consider them. 

There is a fine line between mechanics, art and ego. Don't ask for an editor if all you want is a cheerleader. 

I had one where he wanted an editor and a beta reader all in one package. I explained to him what an editor and a beta reader do, and his mind was blown, but he still refused to see the difference. In addition to the fact that he thought he was doing God's work, when I literally said to him in the nicest way possible, "Your writing's shit."

Still didn't sink in. I could name a few things wrong with his writing. But the number one issue I had was the overly flowery words. Pull back man. PULL BACK!

I would literally write:

Quote

He was in shock, his eyes widening in astonishment as the realization hit him like a bolt of electricity. (Cut/Shorten)--Change to "He gasped."

Then he'd go back to me and defend his writing.

An editor's note would literally be just this: (Cut/Shorten)

But no, I had to be extra and explain to the idiot (he's a good friend, so I get to call him a tosser) about every change.

 

 

[LJCC]

18 hours ago, drown said:

(I'd really like to edit a story for someone else. Or beta read.)

You could beta-read the current story I'm writing if you want, which is currently at 70k+ words, and it's still, er, barely done. 

I have a feeling this is going to be around 150k+ long.

I'll probably have people at it once it's done, though. 

Edited March 10, 2024 by LJCC

[Mike Carss]

8 hours ago, LJCC said:

I had to be extra and explain to the idiot (he's a good friend, so I get to call him a tosser) about every change.

Did he ever come to realize how rare it is to get constructive criticism from a good friend? 😅

[LJCC]

On 3/11/2024 at 1:02 AM, mcarss said:

Did he ever come to realize how rare it is to get constructive criticism from a good friend? 😅

He used to edit my past novels so he's very laissez-faire about it, and I'm like, bitch, I'm doing this for free...now you gotta suck my dick for wasting my time.

Sadly he did not.

But yeah, I'm never editing his work again that twat. Haha.  Although he realized that most editors are shit writers.

I guess that logic goes both ways, where majority of writers are horrible at editing their own work.

[JamesSavik]

Repetitive catchphrases.

They are fun, in small doses, but don't use them in every chapter.

In one of the audiobooks I'm listening to, the author uses a catchphrase about every third page. Make the magic happen comes up so often I cringe. Maybe since I try to write, my ear is more sensitive to it.

One of my editing techniques is to have the computer read aloud what my writing sounds like. You would be amazed at how well that works. If it doesn't sound right to you, the author, you know it's not going to work for the reader.

That's my pet peeve and something I try to stomp on in my own writing.

Edited March 31, 2024 by JamesSavik
derp

[LJCC]

8 hours ago, JamesSavik said:

Repetitive catchphrases.

They are fun, in small doses, but don't use them in every chapter.

In one of the audiobooks I'm listening to, the author uses a catchphrase about every third page. Make the magic happen comes up so often I cringe. Maybe since I try to write, my ear is more sensitive to it.

One of my editing techniques is to have the computer read aloud what my writing sounds like. You would be amazed at how well that works. If it doesn't sound right to you, the author, you know it's not going to work for the reader.

That's my pet peeve and something I try to stomp on in my own writing.

I actually use Google to read my work:

https://cloud.google.com/text-to-speech/#demo

It's free and can read up to less than 1k words; depending on your internet, it can go for more.

It's fairly slow (TO MY INTERNET) once it's past 1k since my net runs like a slug.

The quality of the voice is superb.

And that is so VERY true: If it doesn't sound right to you, the author, you know it's not going to work for the reader.

The number of times I've re-edited my work, thinking it was good but apparently it's not, is a lot.

Having someone read your work helps with your pacing and overall writing.

[Jason Rimbaud]

I have absolutely no business commenting because I can't edit my own work much less someone else. But what I can comment on is from a readers perspective. I am a great beta.

That being said, I was reading this story the other day and in the first few paragraphs I got this sentence,

"Yes, my friend. You were never one for believing the nature of others. I am sorry to say my exploration proves my original hypothesis, my old friend."

And just a few paragraphs down this sentence had me navigating off the page.

The limousine came to a stop in front of the building, the chauffer getting out, opening the door for the lawyer. He climbed out of the black car, his eyes going upwards, the building reaching upwards into the late day, smothering sky, his thoughts congealing together.

Flowery language turns me off, words repeating in the same sentence, and overly describing the action. The above sentence could be reduced to the car stopped, the driver opened the door, I walked inside. When the action is important, to add tension to the scene, I can see describing it in detail, but in that same story, someone got out of bed, walked to the bathroom, shut the door, grabbed his toothbrush and slathered it with toothpaste then spit into the sink before he grabbed the floss.

Or you could say the guy got up and brushed his teeth. Or cut the scene all together because it does move the story forward unless the story is about dental hygiene.  

The difficult names doesn't really bother me as long as it fits the characters nationality. If a white guy from Queens is named Nuresh, I find that off putting, but if an American born Indian is named Krishnan it doesn't bother me. But having American white boys named Asmodean is just annoying. 

Writers have a difficult time telling vs showing, and most of us love the sound of our own words. Keep it simple with your prose, if you must be flowery, have a character speak that way, but don't use it in your descriptions of mundane things. 

I agree that using "Said" can be intrusive, but in my writing I have multiple people talking at once, often, so using "said" is the best way to keep track of what is going on. But when the scene is only two people, you should be able to tell who's speaking. And if you feel you need to nudge the reader to remind them, maybe slip in a character description. 

I tend to underwrite everything, in the first draft, I do everything bare bones, its only upon re-writes that I actually start filling out the characters, adding descriptions, fleshing out dialogue between characters. This helps me get to the end of the story quickly without getting bogged down in making it good. I keep track of every version I write, and I love going back and reading my first draft and then comparing it with my fifth or sixth draft. My first draft might be 70k words, and my final could be as high as 200K. 

One pet peeve of mine is the length of chapters. I do not enjoy chapters under ten pages. For me, to really flesh out scenes, I prefer between 20 to 30 pages. Does anyone have any thoughts about chapter lengths?

J 

[LJCC]

4 hours ago, Jason Rimbaud said:

I have absolutely no business commenting because I can't edit my own work much less someone else. But what I can comment on is from a readers perspective. I am a great beta.

That being said, I was reading this story the other day and in the first few paragraphs I got this sentence,

"Yes, my friend. You were never one for believing the nature of others. I am sorry to say my exploration proves my original hypothesis, my old friend."

And just a few paragraphs down this sentence had me navigating off the page.

The limousine came to a stop in front of the building, the chauffer getting out, opening the door for the lawyer. He climbed out of the black car, his eyes going upwards, the building reaching upwards into the late day, smothering sky, his thoughts congealing together.

Flowery language turns me off, words repeating in the same sentence, and overly describing the action. The above sentence could be reduced to the car stopped, the driver opened the door, I walked inside. When the action is important, to add tension to the scene, I can see describing it in detail, but in that same story, someone got out of bed, walked to the bathroom, shut the door, grabbed his toothbrush and slathered it with toothpaste then spit into the sink before he grabbed the floss.

Or you could say the guy got up and brushed his teeth. Or cut the scene all together because it does move the story forward unless the story is about dental hygiene.  

The difficult names doesn't really bother me as long as it fits the characters nationality. If a white guy from Queens is named Nuresh, I find that off putting, but if an American born Indian is named Krishnan it doesn't bother me. But having American white boys named Asmodean is just annoying. 

Writers have a difficult time telling vs showing, and most of us love the sound of our own words. Keep it simple with your prose, if you must be flowery, have a character speak that way, but don't use it in your descriptions of mundane things. 

I agree that using "Said" can be intrusive, but in my writing I have multiple people talking at once, often, so using "said" is the best way to keep track of what is going on. But when the scene is only two people, you should be able to tell who's speaking. And if you feel you need to nudge the reader to remind them, maybe slip in a character description. 

I tend to underwrite everything, in the first draft, I do everything bare bones, its only upon re-writes that I actually start filling out the characters, adding descriptions, fleshing out dialogue between characters. This helps me get to the end of the story quickly without getting bogged down in making it good. I keep track of every version I write, and I love going back and reading my first draft and then comparing it with my fifth or sixth draft. My first draft might be 70k words, and my final could be as high as 200K. 

One pet peeve of mine is the length of chapters. I do not enjoy chapters under ten pages. For me, to really flesh out scenes, I prefer between 20 to 30 pages. Does anyone have any thoughts about chapter lengths?

J 

"Yes, my friend. You were never one for believing the nature of others. I am sorry to say my exploration proves my original hypothesis, my old friend."

If someone calls me "my old friend,'' they're getting punched in the face.

I think proper editing is very important to the context. To give an example:

The limousine came to a stop in front of the building, the chauffer getting out, opening the door for the lawyer. He climbed out of the black car, his eyes going upwards, the building reaching upwards into the late day, smothering sky, his thoughts congealing together.

FIRST EDIT:

• The limousine came to a stop in front of the building and reached upwards into the late day, smothering the sky. With the chauffeur getting out and opening the door for the lawyer, he climbed out of the black car, his eyes going upwards. His thoughts congealed together.

SECOND/FINAL EDIT: SUSPENSE GENRE

• The limousine came to a stop in front of the building—a towering infrastructure reaching upwards into the late day, smothering the sky. With the chauffeur getting out and opening the door for the lawyer, he climbed out of the black car. His eyes went upwards as though his thoughts congealed together.

SECOND/FINAL EDIT: ROMANTIC GENRE

• The limousine came to a stop in front of the building—a towering infrastructure reaching upwards into the late day, brightly dotting the sky. With the chauffeur getting out and opening the door for the lawyer, Taggart climbed out of the black car. For sure, he had to say it. Andrew had to know how he really felt. Was he too late? He blinked as though his thoughts congealed together.

SECOND/FINAL EDIT: DRAMATIC GENRE

• The limousine came to a stop in front of the building—a towering infrastructure reaching upwards into an undercast sky. With the chauffeur getting out and opening the door for the lawyer, Taggart climbed out of the black car, knowing well what was about to unravel. He clutched his chest as though his thoughts congealed together. Pain. It was coming.

I agree that flowery language is annoying.

For example: 

The tall muscular man took the beautiful girl's slender hand and kissed it with his luscious full lips, until her wild beating heart fluttered with emotion.

I've read so many stories that have the flowery cornucopia, that it puts me off so much too. It's exhausting to read a story like that, because all you're saying in your head is, so many words explaining one emotion. Get to the fucking point!

And then there are some writers who are able to execute flowery prose that actually makes sense and has meaning, you read it again and again because of how beautiful it is.

Even professional writers are guilty of this. This is an excerpt of Irene Iddesleigh by Amanda McKittrick Ros, and unfortunately, the only work of hers that’s been digitized and placed on the internet:

 Ah! the very thought of his embosomed and anticipated alliance made him nervously happy; and believing a bright and noble future lay in store for the lonely owner of Dunfern Estate, he resolved to indulge nature in a few hours of calm repose.

If you’re wondering what he resolved to indulge nature in a few hours of calm repose means, it means he went to bed.

It's a loopy style of writing, like a parody of her own writing. But it is an addicting read cause it's hilarious in the sense that Lewis, Tolkien, and the other Inklings used to hold competitions to see which one of them could read aloud the longest from one of her novels whilst keeping a straight face. Rarely did one of them manage more than a minute.

[ReaderPaul]

Reading these posts again after a more than a year, I agree with @LJCC about the Silmarillion.   Two or three years after it was published, it was found to be the most purchased and least finished book in many years.  I didn't finish it.  But a friend thought it was one of the best books he ever read.

@Jason Rimbaud mand a good point in the following:   

     The difficult names doesn't really bother me as long as it fits the characters nationality.  If a white guy from Queens is named Nuresh, I find that off putting, but if an American born Indian is named Krishnan it doesn't bother me.  But having American white boys named Asmodean is just annoying. 
     Writers have a difficult time telling vs showing, and most of us love the sound of our own words.  Keep it simple with your prose, if you must be flowery, have a character speak that way, but don't use it in your descriptions of mundane things. 

The above got me thinking of one of my favorite authors, @Geron Kees.  The first names of his characters are almost always simple, even when non-human.  Common names include Charlie, Kip, Rick, Adrian, Browbeat, Amy, Horace, Robin, Frit, Pip, Carl, Tom, Nicholaas, Max, Keerby, Pacha'ka, Chirka'ka, Brin, Kiri, Kiley, Kiernan -- And that is just in the Charlie Boone series.  In the Odd, Onward Door/Doorways series, names like Derry, Cally/Calvin, Mike, Difris, Nyf, Brik, Erva, Gilden, Inishee, Koort, and Dith.  In Journey beyond the Sea, names like Jem, Nico, Til, Nita, Bzup, Deera, Azim, Mya, Varin, Hans -- you get the idea.  Some of his short stories have names like Jerry, Jack, Amanda, Roy -- again, you get the idea.  Very few really weird names like Maher-shal-hal-has-bash or --

Such good comments by @Libby Drew, @JamesSavik, @Jason Rimbaud, and @mcarss and @Mikiesboy.  Well worth re-reading the whole set of posts.  Thanks, authors, for inspiring me and hopefully others.