[Viv] FBTE Story moved me deeply

[TonyBillD]

Dear Vivian,

 

I just finished reading 24 chapters of "From behind those Eyes."

 

It was so beautifully written, and profoundly moving, that I only allowed myself to read 1 or 2 chapters a day - soI could savor this story.

 

Many times during my reading, I found myself sobbing out loud (a rarity for me), with profound tears of sadness, joy and courage. I don't remember ever reading any story that was so emotionally moving to me.

 

I can truthfully also say, I've never read a love story that was as inspirational as this one about Stephen and Jesse. found myself over and over wishing I had been as loving to my wife as Stephen and Jesse were so consistently to each other. But now at least I know what I want my loving to be like. I'm age 65+, but I still have many years of love to give.

 

Vivian, You so delicately handled the love scenes - telling us enough to imagine what beautiful things were happening as each chapter gave expression to the genuine love between Stephen and Jesse. You have a truly remarkable gift for being sexually explicit in a way that appeals to the highest part of my character.

 

I've given some thought to why I sense that I haven't seen even a hint of pornography in your very explicit love story. Another writer could have taken the theme of "coming out" in high school and written a story intended to spark as much lust as possible in the reader. The story would have just enough "plot" to tie together the sexual episodes which drew the readers. But you have demonstrated an amazing gift for consistently painting the scenes as Stephen's primary motivation being to make Jesse feel his love - and feel better. And Jesse the same primary motivation re pleasuring and expressing love to Stephen. To me,that distinction is essential to determining whether something sexually explicit I am reading is porn or not.

 

I found myself so absorbed in the story that any thought of my taking some lustful pleasure from the explicit scenes seemed like it would be a betrayal of the wonderful love being expressed between Stephen and Jesse - as if I was hiding behind a door or a bush secretly taking pleasure from the holy act being portrayed.

 

I forget which chapter its in, but I thought it was really classy the way you dealt with Stephen's "need to take care of his erection (or "excitement" maybe?)" You wrote simply that Stephen took care of it while he was in the shower that night. Easy for me to understand what he needed to do without having to give it more attention than it deserved in the context.

 

Your story has helped me greatly to appreciate the potential for authentic love between gay men - expressed in a way no less beautiful - and true - and indeed, holy, as between a man and a woman.

 

Over and over throughout the story, I have gained greater appreciation for the men and women I have known who have "come out" under difficult circumstances in order to keep their human integrity. And I have resolved to be as supportive as I can.

 

I realize that I was warped in my own early development by exposure to the constant teaching that it was a sin deserving of hell (unless one gets to confession before dying) if a teenager allowed himself to dwell on an erotic thought, or continued to kiss or hold hands after becoming sexually aroused. Of course masturbation was gravely sinful. During "retreats"in high school, I heard stories like the one about the teen couple (in the 1950's heterosexual, of course) who fellasleep in he back seat after doing some heavy petting (or more) and were overcome by carbon monoxide poisoning -- and of course went right to hell. Fifty years later, I'm still angry about that kind of teaching. Toward the end of seminary before ordination, my classmates and I came to realize that teachings like that were terribly destructive.

 

The Episcopal denomination, in which I am a clergyman (for many, many years), is in the throes of division these days over the issue of whether to bless same sex unions or ordain gays and lesbians. If other clergy in my church would read this story with an open mind, I believe a great deal of understanding could be reached about why it could be a very godly act to bless same sex unions in some way. If Stephen and Jesse asked for such a blessing, it would seem so right to confirm this wonderfully human relationship in this way, hopefully encouraging and supporting a life of faithfulness to each other. (Since I'm forbidden to do that currently in my diocese, I would probably suggest that I come over (joining with whichever guests they wanted present) for a "house blessing" that would be very inclusive, blessing the wonderful things that happen in the home to express love to one another.)

 

I'd love to be in a discussion group with this story as the prime text. It would sure have to be an extraordinarily safe environment to allow frank expression. (It would be wonderful if we could get to the point where men could acknowledge that some part of most of us is not completely straight - or gay. Of course we have been culturally programmed to cast one another as completely straight or completely gay instead of some combination, even tho we only express one side or the other.) This forum may be the next best thing to a discussion group!

 

If I were preparing questions for a church discussion group using "From Behind Those Eyes" here's a few questions I might suggest to the group.

 

1.After reading a few early chapters, what were you feeling? E.g. interest, disgust, curiousity, fear, sadness, love, _____?

 

2.After reading all the chapters, has your understanding or feelings relating to the expression of love between gay men changed any? If so, how?

 

3. In the story, there are very explicit descriptions of the physical expression of love and care between Stephen and Jesse. Did you feel these descriptions were: a. beautiful b.pornographic c. gratuitous (unnecessary for the plot) d.integral to the storyline?

 

4.What did you like best/least about Stephen, Jesse, their families, their friends, their classmates?

 

5.Do the characters in this story remind you of real persons you have known? If so, does this story help you to understand them any better?

 

6.What would be your reaction if a young person you know and love told you he was gay (or she was lesbian)?

 

7.What teaching did you receive about the morality of sexual expression (heterosexual or gay) when you were in school? Did that teaching help or hurt your personnal development?

 

8. Did this story cause you to question any of your previously held attitudes? If so, which and how?

 

9.Was there anything in this story that would help you to be more sensitive and loving in your own marital and other relationships?

 

10.If you were teaching a Sunday school class for teenagers, How would you answer your students if they asked: Is it OK to hookup? What do you think of having friends with benefits? Is gay sex wrong? Can gays become straight if they really try?

 

11. How would you advise a high school student who was questioning whether or not to "come out" to family,friends, classmates?

 

12. If you were a high school counseler, would you recommend this story to any of the students who seek counseling?

 

13. Would you share this story with a teen son or daughter who may (or may not) be struggling with issues of sexual identity (their own or their friends' and classmates')?

 

14. If the author were here with us today, what would you want to say to her?

 

 

CAUTION: Following remarks give away parts of the story, so I advise reading the story before reading below. Story is too wonderful to have it spoiled by reading what happens before you get there yourself.

 

Chapter 8: Jesse: "Listen, I just don't want to ruin what we have together by going too fast or scaring you. You're too special, you mean too much to me to lose you over that," he said, and I agreed."

I've never been a "free love" advocate ("anything goes anytime"). I sense that sexual intercourse is intended to express a least some degree of commitment. Maybe that's why I was so pleased that Jesse said "whoa" to Stephen when Stephen was beginning to move their sexual expression up a notch. Jesse sat on the other side of the bed (as I recall) and asked Stephen "are we really ready for this." Wow! That was so neat (and theologically profound)!

 

I also really liked Stephen's sensitivity to the difference between "I like you a lot" and "I love you!" His realization that he had come to "love" and not just like him a lot came across to me as being very important in the development of their relationship.

 

Chapter 20 provided an opportunity for me to mature significantly in my understanding and appreciation for the particular act of "making love," as I think Stephen called it in this chapter. It has always been hard for me to see beauty in this particular act, as I have imagined it. The way you presented it, tho Viv (and Davey) it came across as the most natural thing in the world to express love between men in this way - all the while looking into each other's eyes. I even asked myself a question I certainly never broached before - "Is it possible that God provided a "dual use" for this portion of our anatomy so that men could express their mutual love in this way?" For a pretty conservative guy theologically, this thought really amazed me.

 

My deepest thanks to you, Viv, for writing and sharing this story, and to your friend, Davey, for his contributions to it.

 

TonyBillD

 

WHO AM I? So that you will know the personal "filters" at play as I write this, here's a very brief bio:

 

Causasian male, 65+, married over 30 years, grown sons, have lived in both North and South U.S., grew up Roman Catholic, long time member of clergy, Episcopal priest, moderately conservative, evangelical theology (but not "fundamentalist" or "religious right"), feeling need to understand much better the experiences of gay and lesbian folks in committed relationships, have had gay/lesbian couples in my congregations,currently great divisiveness within my denomination of whether or not to bless same sex unions or ordain practicing gay/lesbians.

 

 

[AFriendlyFace]

Hey Tony!!

 

Welcome to GA!! It's great to have you here and I must say I really enjoyed your post about Viv's excellent story!

 

Here's what I thought:

 

 

I can truthfully also say, I've never read a love story that was as inspirational as this one about Stephen and Jesse. found myself over and over wishing I had been as loving to my wife as Stephen and Jesse were so consistently to each other. But now at least I know what I want my loving to be like. I'm age 65+, but I still have many years of love to give.

 

Excellent sentiment, and so true!

Vivian, You so delicately handled the love scenes - telling us enough to imagine what beautiful things were happening as each chapter gave expression to the genuine love between Stephen and Jesse. You have a truly remarkable gift for being sexually explicit in a way that appeals to the highest part of my character.

 

I agree! She totally does, doesn't she!

I've given some thought to why I sense that I haven't seen even a hint of pornography in your very explicit love story. Another writer could have taken the theme of "coming out" in high school and written a story intended to spark as much lust as possible in the reader. The story would have just enough "plot" to tie together the sexual episodes which drew the readers. But you have demonstrated an amazing gift for consistently painting the scenes as Stephen's primary motivation being to make Jesse feel his love - and feel better. And Jesse the same primary motivation re pleasuring and expressing love to Stephen. To me,that distinction is essential to determining whether something sexually explicit I am reading is porn or not.

That does indeed seem like an excellent way to determin the difference.

 

Your story has helped me greatly to appreciate the potential for authentic love between gay men - expressed in a way no less beautiful - and true - and indeed, holy, as between a man and a woman.

Over and over throughout the story, I have gained greater appreciation for the men and women I have known who have "come out" under difficult circumstances in order to keep their human integrity. And I have resolved to be as supportive as I can.

 

 

 

1.After reading a few early chapters, what were you feeling? E.g. interest, disgust, curiousity, fear, sadness, love, _____?

I definitely felt that nice warm, fuzzy feeling people get with sweet love stories. There was also definitely a degree of excitement as I was very curious to see what would happen next and how Jesse's friends and family would react!

2.After reading all the chapters, has your understanding or feelings relating to the expression of love between gay men changed any? If so, how?

Well, I probably come from a more pro-gay/gay experienced perspective than the presumed typical reader/congregation member who might read this. I defintely already believed in and had positive feelings toward the potential for love between gay men, but reading this story has certainly helped solidify that, and has definitely been a treat, and yes, a "soul nurturing" experience.

3. In the story, there are very explicit descriptions of the physical expression of love and care between Stephen and Jesse. Did you feel these descriptions were: a. beautiful b.pornographic c. gratuitous (unnecessary for the plot) d.integral to the storyline?

A and D

4.What did you like best/least about Stephen, Jesse, their families, their friends, their classmates?

Hmm, I liked how Stephen and Jesse interact with each other and I very much liked how in the early part of the story Jesse was able to relate to Stephen his fears stemming from his previous childhood experience with his friend. I was really pleased with the way Stephen allayed these fears and resolved himself to be there for Jesse. That was definitely one of the most significant parts of the story for me.

 

I really liked how Stephens friends were there for them as well, and I think Stephen's birthday party was a huge turning point in their acceptence of Stephen and Jesse's relationship!

 

5.Do the characters in this story remind you of real persons you have known? If so, does this story help you to understand them any better?

Hmm, oddly enough I'd have to say "no". I can't think of anyone any of these characters particularly remind me of. To me the characters were very "fresh", and I'm sure if I thought about it properly I could link them to other people in my life, but I more or less just took them as individuals in their own right.

 

6.What would be your reaction if a young person you know and love told you he was gay (or she was lesbian)?

"Nifty! *hug* "

 

I'm pretty involved in the gay community and I have quite a few gay and lesbian friends. Most of the people I meet are "already out" gay people to some extent. Not all of them are completely or even mostly out, but the settings in which we typically meet are such that people are presumed gay. So nowadays people don't often "come out" to me since it's not really necessary. However, there are still quite a few people in my life who are going through various struggles in their paths toward accepting themselves, and I definitely try to convey to them that I'm there for them, will keep anything they want to discuss private, and won't "judge" them.

 

Prior to being actively involved in the gay community, prior to "coming out" myself even, I did have a few people come out to me. My reaction was essentially what I described above. I talked to them about it as much as they wanted, let them know it was cool with me, and generally ended the chat with a hug. I also knew a few "already out" gay people who didn't really need to tell me, once someone is sufficiently out it's just sort of "common knowledge". With these people offering extra support with regards to their sexuality wasn't really necessary.

 

7.What teaching did you receive about the morality of sexual expression (heterosexual or gay) when you were in school? Did that teaching help or hurt your personnal development?

Ahh, well I went to Catholic school K-12. Actually there was never much of a focus on homosexuality. "Officially" it was understood that the stance was "hate the sin, love the sinner", but really they didn't go on very much about it, so I pretty much made up my own mind and reached my own conclusions.

 

As far as sexuality in general there was definitely a great deal of the "no sex before marriage" talk, but it really wasn't a fire and brimstone kinda place, and I don't think I ever got the impression that people who fooled around would automatically be condemned to hell.

 

8. Did this story cause you to question any of your previously held attitudes? If so, which and how?

Hmm, well I definitely found the story inspirational, and in particular I took a great deal of comfort from the way Stephen's dad, and friends accepted the pair.

 

9.Was there anything in this story that would help you to be more sensitive and loving in your own marital and other relationships?

Definitely! Quite a bit of the way they interact with each other seems like excellent relationship advice.

 

10.If you were teaching a Sunday school class for teenagers, How would you answer your students if they asked: Is it OK to hookup? What do you think of having friends with benefits? Is gay sex wrong? Can gays become straight if they really try?

Complicated question. I consider myself a very spiritual person, and a Christian, but I don't strongly identify with any specific religion (though most strongly Catholic), so it's unlikely I'd be teaching a Sunday school class in the first place. If I did I'd presumably believe and strongly identify with all the dogma of the particular religion, and thus I'm sure I would answer the above questions accordingly. My own opinions would be as follows:

 

-Is it OK to hookup? I'd probably tell them that that's something they have to decide for themselves. That in my opinion is most definitely is not okay to "hookup" if you are the person you're hooking up with is in any sort of a relationship (I personally don't agree with "open" relationships, but generally mind my own business here beyond avoiding them myself). Assuming both parties are completely single, both clear on the fact that this is a "one time" thing, both honest about their sexual histories, and use protection, then I'd say it's "Okay", but could still get very complicated.

 

-What do you think of having friends with benefits? Again I think it's a definite "NO" if either friend is in a relationship, or pursuing a relationship. In general I'd apply the same guidelines as above, but I actually think it's a slightly smarter, safer alternative, but also one that could get much more complicated and has the potential for more emotional discord.

 

-Is gay sex wrong? Of course not. Theoretically it could be wrong under some circumstances in the same way that straight sex could be wrong (I.E. cheating, using it as a weapon, being emotionally mean or manipulative, and so on), but intrinsically I don't think it makes a difference.

-Can gays become straight if they really try? To me the question is moot. I think it's unhealthy and unfortunate for anyone gay to try or want to be straight (or for that matter for anyone straight to try or want to be gay). People should instead strive to accept themselves and each other.

 

The "official party line" is no, people can't change their orientation. I mostly believe that, but I also tend to believe that the majority of people aren't completely gay or straight, but instead vary over a continuum. So perhaps if the person were sufficiently close to the middle they could surpress one side of their orientation and instead focus solely on the other. But I think that's the case only for a few people, and I think it's still a BAD IDEA for everyone.

 

11. How would you advise a high school student who was questioning whether or not to "come out" to family,friends, classmates?

I'd tell them that only they can know whether it's the right decision for them at this time. They should look at their situation and the people around them. Sometimes it really isn't a good idea for a minor to come out. It could be dangerous or detrimental to their long-term goals. On the other hand it could be a wonderful, affirming experience that would be essential to their long-term goals. It completely depends on the person in question and their situation. So I'd try to discuss with the person just what kind of situation they were in, give them my personal advise, but emphasize that ultimately it really has to be their own decision and that it's a decision they should only make after careful deliberation and only when they are themselves ready (and not as a result of any kind of pressure from a boyfriend/girlfriend or others in their lives).

 

 

12. If you were a high school counseler, would you recommend this story to any of the students who seek counseling?

Yes, definitely

 

13. Would you share this story with a teen son or daughter who may (or may not) be struggling with issues of sexual identity (their own or their friends' and classmates')?

Yeah, I think in general it would be beneficial for more people (gay or straight, young or old) to see more positive expressions of heterosexual relationships and life in general.

 

14. If the author were here with us today, what would you want to say to her?

Well, I've already discussed it with her, but I'm always up for talking to my Vivy

 

Chapter 8: Jesse: "Listen, I just don't want to ruin what we have together by going too fast or scaring you. You're too special, you mean too much to me to lose you over that," he said, and I agreed."

I've never been a "free love" advocate ("anything goes anytime"). I sense that sexual intercourse is intended to express a least some degree of commitment. Maybe that's why I was so pleased that Jesse said "whoa" to Stephen when Stephen was beginning to move their sexual expression up a notch. Jesse sat on the other side of the bed (as I recall) and asked Stephen "are we really ready for this." Wow! That was so neat (and theologically profound)!

 

I also really liked Stephen's sensitivity to the difference between "I like you a lot" and "I love you!" His realization that he had come to "love" and not just like him a lot came across to me as being very important in the development of their relationship.

I definitely agree with your interpretation!

Chapter 20 provided an opportunity for me to mature significantly in my understanding and appreciation for the particular act of "making love," as I think Stephen called it in this chapter. It has always been hard for me to see beauty in this particular act, as I have imagined it. The way you presented it, tho Viv (and Davey) it came across as the most natural thing in the world to express love between men in this way - all the while looking into each other's eyes. I even asked myself a question I certainly never broached before - "Is it possible that God provided a "dual use" for this portion of our anatomy so that men could express their mutual love in this way?" For a pretty conservative guy theologically, this thought really amazed me.

What a beautiful thought! I've always thought that sexuality (gay and straight) was a gift from a God.

 

 

WHO AM I? So that you will know the personal "filters" at play as I write this, here's a very brief bio:

 

Causasian male, 65+, married over 30 years, grown sons, have lived in both North and South U.S., grew up Roman Catholic, long time member of clergy, Episcopal priest, moderately conservative, evangelical theology (but not "fundamentalist" or "religious right"), feeling need to understand much better the experiences of gay and lesbian folks in committed relationships, have had gay/lesbian couples in my congregations,currently great divisiveness within my denomination of whether or not to bless same sex unions or ordain practicing gay/lesbians.

Well since you were so candid about the your bio info, and the things which influenced your reading, I think it only fair that I also give similar info about myself.

 

Caucasian male, 23, gay, single, and not in a relationship, grew up in the South, attended Catholic school through high school, still identify as "a very liberal, Catholic", quite liberal socially, completed my undergraduate degree in psychology and sociology, and will soon be attending grad school with a likely concentration in counseling. I'm always eager to learn more about other types of people and consider myself very open-minded.

 

Thanks for the excellent and insightful post, Tony. It's been a pleasure discussing the story with you and I hope more jump in.

 

Take care and have an awesome day

Kevin

[TonyBillD]

Hi Kevin!

 

Thanks very much for your very thorough and thoughtful comments! (I'm printing them out and saving them for future reference.)

I know I've grown significantly in my understanding by reading and reflecting on your ideas.

 

I hope they will spark some more dialogue on "From Behind Those Eyes"

 

It would be so wonderful if we could get these thoughts out to the broader community. We all have so much to learn about sexuality in general and homosexuality in particular.

 

I'm reading a 140 page book that I'm learning a lot from: James B Nelson's The Intimate Connection; Male Sexuality, Masculine Spirituality Westminster Press -available from Amazon. The author helpfully alerts us to the dichotomy between body and spirit the church has professed for well over a thousand years.This dichotomy, where spirit is good and body is bad, has led to a very warped sense of sexuality's place in creation . "From Behind Those Eyes" is a remarkable example of Stephen and Jesse beautifully blending both body and spirit in their expression of love.

 

Have a great weekend, Kevin!

 

TonyBillD

 

TonyBillD@aol.com