AFriendlyFace

Thanks, Nick, I really appreciate the support Of course I would speak up! As a matter of fact, while as I said I really appreciate the support, and I also definitely agree with Nick that detailed criticism is often best done in private (you never know how the author will react unless he/she has mentioned it before). In my particular case I have no objection to it at all and actually really appreciated Corvus' thoughtful comments! Thanks Crovus, I too would be a massive hypocrite if I did take offense since not only did I directly ask for your further feedback on this, but I definitely always say (and mean) that I appreciate constructive criticism. Indeed, while I appreciated your first comment alot, I ultimately have to say that I find this one much more useful. I'm glad you pointed this out, and also glad that Steph commented on it as well. I have a fairly 'colourful' style of describing things and I was genuinely unaware that this description was ill-fitted. Personally, in an idiomatic sense, I think you can share a kiss through lips, but I think you can only do so if the lips have an adjective attached. I know that sounds weird but what I mean is: "They shared a kiss through lips" Sounds ridiculous to me. However: "They shared a kiss through hungry lips" "They shared a kiss through throbbing, desperate lips" "They shared a kiss through lips which had been lonely for far too long" All sound okay to me. I'd say that the style of "through mutually busted lips" is most similar to example number two. I know it seems ridiculous that I base the suitability of the idiom on whether or not there is an adjective/descriptive phrase attached to 'lips', but in terms of simply reading it and deciding whether it's acceptable or ridiculous, that is the criteria I used in this case. However, I don't want my stories to only sound acceptable to me. You and Steph have both stated that that phrase stood out. Steph ultimately seems to have decided it was acceptable (please correct me, Steph, or feel free to add to the topic), but for you it obviously didn't work at all. I definitely need to know these sorts of things. I by no means am trying to argue that 'shared a kiss through mutually busted lips' is acceptable, only that it seemed acceptable to me. That's why it's so useful for people to comment on these things, otherwise I'd never have given it any thought at all. You found "mutually busted" inappropriate as well? Why? Did you find the word 'busted' too colloquial? That general style is definitely common for me to use - not just in writing but in speech as well. I routinely say things like "I'm similarly afflicted" if my friend is telling me about a cold or other ailment which I am also experiencing. Or I might say, "equally hungry", "correspondingly suitable", etc. So "mutually busted" (or 'mutually bloodied' if it's 'busted' that you object to) is definitely something I would naturally say and write. However, here again, I try to inject flavour into my writing, but I don't want my characters and narration to sound exactly like me. In fact, I want my characters to be completely unique. In one recent chapter of BMAD I had Aaron use the word 'queue' because I'd already used 'line' in the same paragraph. I was very concerned that it would seem unrealistic or troublesome to the reader. I use words like 'queue' on occasion, but I'm aware that the average southern boy Aaron's age might not. Sharon and Tim didn't object though - in fact Tim complimented the use - so I decided it was ok and worked given Aaron's generally odd 'voice'. But yeah, I definitely want to know about these sorts of things! If you are readily able to supply other examples I'd love to hear them! I found the ones you mentioned quite useful and interesting. Regarding the lack of commas, lol no Gary had nothing to do with that. I'm actually a bit surprised. I thought I would tend to stray more toward over over comma use rather than under. I think my informal, conversational style writing (forum posts for example) is definitely more comma-heavy than my 'formal' (or what passes for it) writing style. Regarding Gary, as I understand it he used to be a journalism editor; they're notorious for their minimalistic approach to comma usage. Perhaps I am subconsciously affected by this approach. Do you find my forum posts to be spartan on commas? You've read some of my other work, right? Have you noticed this there as well? This is definitely something I'll ask Sharon and Tim about. Have any of the rest of you guys found this to be the case? Only the first was possible? I definitely meant for him to be manipulative; indeed that was supposed to be one such example. Stupid and arrogant are debatable, but not inappropriate by any means. (Well, I didn't intend for him to be 'stupid' in terms of intellect, but stupid in terms of judgment certainly) I didn't/don't find the scene particularly unrealistic. They were supposed to have been apart for a year (I believe it was a year, I'd have to check, but in any case it was their longest separation) and they were also supposed to have been pretty miserable and obsessed with each other the whole time. After a year of agony and obsession, I don't find it odd that they'd get carried away and create a scene in the supermarket. I particularly don't find it odd given that it's Trevor and Greg. When I was in school one of the biggest laughs and most notable moments was when one of my female classmates removed her shirt in public. She was not trying to be an exhibitionist nor was she stupid. She was simply oblivious and focused on what she was doing, which was chatting intently with her friends. They were walking toward the locker room - where obviously they would be undressing - and she simply got a headstart without thinking about it. Point is, if you're not a particularly self-conscious, introverted person AND you're focused on a more selective task, I think it's very easy to act socially inappropriate without being aware of it. Another factor is that even if they were peripherally aware of their setting I don't think they would have particularly cared (Trevor certainly wouldn't have, Greg may have a bit I suppose *shrug*). I'm not one for making a scene in public, but I think their conversation was more important than simply following the rules of polite society. If I were miserable and I ran into someone and was faced with the opportunity to perhaps remove or lessen that misery (at least in my own mind), I hope I would be willing to knowingly create a scene if necessary, and I'm really not the kind of person who goes around causing scenes. Indeed I try to avoid them, but in my opinion what that boils down to is, "You're just buying groceries. This is my life we're talking about! Deal with it" Thanks Corvus, as I said I really appreciate your comments about 'a)' and please feel free to point out more if you think of any. I think they're definitely worth my attention and may indeed result in me deciding to write slightly differently. Regarding 'b )', I also appreciate hearing your opinions, but I'm afraid I do agree that it's just your personal taste and I'm less likely to change my writing as a result of it. However, I'd love to hear more thoughts you might have about it, and I'd love to hear from anyone else (and obviously if it's universally thought that this sucks I would consider changing it!) Well don't worry about that for my stories! I appreciate the review and I'm sorry if you felt you had to censor yourself in the first place. Obviously I love gay males (I'm a gay male, I date gay males, and the majority of my close friends are gay males), but believe me when I tell you that, as someone who's known quite a few of them and had extensive contact, the only segment of the population that could possibly rival the 'average' gay male in terms of melodrama is the 'average' teen girl. That's obviously just my opinion, and it's just my opinion about the 'average' person in those groups (not that I even really believe in 'average people' anyway). Also, I'll concede that quite a few gay males (and teen girls) aren't melodramatic at all (perhaps you for example). Thanks, Corvus Take care and have a great day! -Kevin BTW, the sunglass thing drives me crazy too!

I just wanted to wish Tracey a very happy, special, and all around awesome 20th birthday!! May your day be happy and your year truly incredible -Kevin

:wacko: congrats, Kurt! It's been a true pleasure having your around and reading these 1,000 posts! May your next 1,000 be as wonderful as the first -Kevin

I just wanted to wish Graeme a very happy 5,000 posts!!!! With your kind, thoughtful, supportive posts you're truly an inspiration to us all, Graeme! Not to mention an extremely talented author, an incredibly fair Moderator, a dedicated, hard-working Anthology Co-coordinator, an all around great guy, and a terrific friend! I can't wait for your next 5,000!!! :king: -Kevin

Congrats Mike!! I'm celebrating the completion of my serial Buy Me A Drink. It's been awesome releasing it and discussing it with everyone. I hope folks enjoyed reading it as much as I enjoyed writing it

So glad it made you happy We all think you're terrific!!

Next time the hairdresser asks, seem to puzzle over the question, then scrunch up your face, bob your shoulders side to side a bit, draw in a noisy breath through your teeth, and say "nooooo" slowly, being certain to draw out the 'o'. It'll get your point across, but make you seem pleasantly unforceful if that's what you're going for Blah, I did drama once upon a time

Uhhh...are you sure? Looks like the same one to me (and certainly no tangoing)

Awww, I'm glad you had fun Steve! LOL, My birthday is less than a month away and I've already removed the date so I won't have to worry about that Well here's another then (only 28 more to go! )

Thanks, Tim Do you want to? I need to start sending you the prologue and first few chapters if/when you're ready Wow thanks, Jess! I really appreciate that! LOL, clearly you guys would not have been happy if I'd ended the whole series there! That was a possibility if the story had been poorly received and/or I'd lost interest in it. As it is though, I actually haven't addressed any of the major things I wanted to address yet. So you guys can expect an eventful Worth A Shot. Incidentally, as I said, in many ways I consider BMAD to be one big prologue to Worth A Shot. It pretty much just sets the stage for everything to come. I'm hoping it won't be a full month, but it depends on how much writing I can get done! Also, I can't wait for you guys to read next week's short story (I've had it written for nearly two years now!).

My gosh, Maria! You really need to read this book I'm reading about homosexuality, feminism, and gender equality. You basically just summed up the primary premise! (...well in that case I guess you don't need to read the book ) In any case, I agree with every word. Thanks for the support. I think that's a great assessment too! Nah....most of them already think I'm a little bi anyway Hmm, that's an interesting theory, and it probably has a lot of merit. It's different from my own though. I tend to think that the pressures of living such an extreme lie (being so publicly anti-gay while having those feelings) build up and build up and they see that at their only out-let. Which is ridiculous because if they could accept themselves and face up to the truth they could live a much more respectable, positive, healthier life. Me too. Totally agreed! Well said!

I really didn't think it was a cliffhanger at all! In fact I considered ending the whole thing there and would have felt like that was an ok place. LOL, I guess there's some disagreement about that hehe, like what? The pleasure was all mine

Let me add to the chorus of people proclaiming the merit of Tim's advice! Not too much I can add I'm afraid. Except my support and well-wishes Good advice, Jordan Just a friendly reminder to all though, please watch the language Good luck, Dude!! -Kevin

LOL, it's up In fact it technically was (though only by a very small margin) when you posted that! Here it is: Chapter 10: Breaking Up With My Boyfriend As I said this is the final chapter! I hope you guys enjoy it! Good or bad please let me know what you think of it and the story in general Buy Me A Drink will definitely have a sequel. Worth A Shot should begin posting within the next month. Sometime before it does, likely in about a week, I'll release a short story as well

Wow, thanks for the praise, Nick! I'm really touched and flattered! I agree that ideally they could learn better interpersonal skills!!! Thanks Pete! I'm glad you were surprised! Trevor and Greg definitely 'gave up' on something. It's a bit open to interpretation what exactly they gave up. But if I portrayed any actual change in their relationship I wanted it to be that henceforth they will 'give up' on some certain set of expectations. Perhaps the expectation of ever separating for good. Perhaps the expectation of every having an openly affectionate relationship (again?). Perhaps the expectation that either of them will ever change. Or, perhaps more positively, the expectation that they would continue to purposely hurt each other. That's an great point, Richard! Actually, that was another theme I wanted to peripherally explore. I think very often there is a (typically true perception) that young love is sweet and tender, and 'old love' is more enduring but ultimately less romantic and more functional, perhaps even hardened in this way. I think to some extent that's very natural and unavoidable. As with knowing the difference between a healthy relationship of give and take versus one of co-dependency, it's also difficult to know the difference between a 'naturally seasoned' relationship and one that has just plain soured. Thanks very much, Richard Thank you Beasty! These comments mean a lot to me and really cut to the heart of what I was trying to do Thanks CR I hadn't truly thought about it until you pointed this out, but now that I think about, I think all my stories (both posted and the ones in various stages of completion which I haven't posted yet), address very different topics and themes. I think they have a lot of similarities, but I definitely not the kind of author who is going to repeatedly write stories about X, Y, or Z topic. Well at least I haven't done that yet anyway Wow, thank you very much Thanks, Steph! I was a bit worried about the flow. I was concerned that it might have drug on a bit right before the end. Thank you very much, Dion! I really appreciate that! With regards to your bolded comment, I think it's very very accurate. It also reminds me of something amusing I once saw on either a movie or on television. It basically went like this: Character one: "What's with you? Why are you acting so strangely?" Character two: "I'm just trying to be nice" Character one: "Well stop it. I didn't fall in love with someone nice. I fell in love with you" Perhaps that's really what Greg and Trevor's relationship comes down to Thanks all Kevin

Thank you very much, Kit! That's pretty much what I was going for in terms of the tone of the story. I wanted dark, but I wanted palatable as well. Actually, eventually I intend to write a properly 'dark' story (and a properly 'happy' story). Right now though it's more enjoyable to balance the two. With this one and If No One Notices I was definitely going for dark overall (obviously much more so with INON). Thank you very much! I hope you do get a chance to check out my other work Despite trying to write the actual story in a non-biased, fair way that presents a case for both sides...this is definitely a good assessment of how I would feel in either of their situations. In all honestly, Trevor and Greg manage to break all three of my 'cardinal rules' when it comes to dating. I've always said that I would never stay in a relationship in which: -There is every any physical or emotional abuse/violence -There is any cheating -There is an overly structured, role centric focus and dynamic So obviously I personally would have left the relationship long ago (I HOPE!!), but I hoped to show that perhaps that's not always as easy as it sounds, and maybe, just maybe, these sorts of relationships can hold some positive value for the people involved. Also, I tried to indicate that the physical violence and cheating were one-time incidents (which I believe they very seldom actually are in real life, but in the story I tried to indicate that they were). I think this is an excellent assessment as well, Mike! Thank you very much! Such a balanced opinion of views is exactly what I was shooting for! If everyone had felt one way or the other I'd have been very disappointed. Also, I think that is a very compelling case, and obviously a good enough case for Trevor and Greg. That is a really excellent point, Graeme! Another thing I wanted to show is indeed that they had weathered a lot of storms, that they had 'gone throw hell' in their relationship and hung on. Perhaps this is a bit bleak and negative, but what relationship is without its trials and tribulations? Maybe Greg and Trevor have had a few more than most couples, but I think nearly every couple that's together very long-term goes through at least one or two 'crises'. I think these crises inevitably change the dynamic of the relationship and the surface way in which the couple interact. If there's one major aspect of the story that was in my original objective that ultimately got left out, it was emphasizing that Trevor and Greg once had a very happy, affectionate relationship. It was always misery and arguments, they did have their fair share of good times - especially in the beginning before events jaded them. As I said, I failed to show that though. It was partly an unintentional failing, but it was also because I allowed the story to take itself in the direction that felt right. Ultimately focusing on their happy, conflict-free times didn't feel 'right' for the story. I actually think that by so doing I would have made it a much darker, more cynical piece. Instead of "look at this couple always at each other's throats" it would have been, "look at this couple that was once so sweet that is now always at each other's throats" So you guys tell me, would have been more depressing to show a relationship that very clearing went from soft and tender to hardened and acerbic?

Oh my!! I'll have that chapter right up, Gabe!

I like this one the best. It's quite adorable I agree with Frosty and Eric, keep the long hair What about the ocean?

Thanks Corvus, I think that's generally true of the majority of my stories. I'm naturally more interested in people, emotions, feelings etc. than on actual events and action. I'm sure that shows in my stories. I think I probably tend to write much more character than plot based tales. I see your point...obviously though I did that on purpose. I was less inclined to write about the mundane events of their lives (and obviously there would have been quite a few given how long they'd been together) precisely because I wanted to show the highs and lows. Do you feel like the story would have benefit from some more 'down time'? Would have made the dramatic bits ultimately more effective and resonating? I'd really love thoughts and feedback on this! You mean what's the point of reading? What's the point of Trevor and Greg's relationship? Or what's the point of the story itself? If it's the point of reading, then my objective was to entertain my reader and portray a controversial, atypical relationship. I wanted to get people thinking about this relationship and questioning whether or not the characters should be together. I wanted people to imagine themselves in such a relationship and decide how they would have acted and reacted, whether it would have been worth it to them. I wanted to show that Trevor and Greg were both to blame for their dysfunction and also both to credit (or perhaps blame again?) for the survival of their relationship. Basically I wanted to show that they both kept screwing up but they both kept fighting to make it work. Lastly and most simply I wanted to ask the questions of "how much is too much?" "What lines can't be crossed?" "When should a couple give up?" What's the point of Trevor and Greg's relationship? That's kind of a subjective answer and will depend on how the readers answer the questions above. I hesitate to say what I think is the objective point of their relationship because that would still just be my interpretation and it would squelch other opinions. What's the point of the story? What's the point of any story? As I said, this one was mostly to get people thinking about how they viewed relationships and what is and isn't dysfunctional. I admit that there really wasn't any change for Trevor and Greg. One could argue that they ostensibly decided to make a firmer commitment to keep making each other miserable, but the whole thing is subjective and by the very nature of their relationship there's a good chance that they'll break their own rules. There's also a good chance that they'll get back together regardless. So did this 'story' see in character growth? Any development in terms of their relationship? As I said, that's a subjective opinion. I would tentatively say that they did renew and deepen their commitment in the end. I won't say whether I think that's a good thing or a bad thing though. I guess ultimately the story was only about the lives of these two characters and their feelings for each other, but the purpose is only in how it is interpreted by the reader and not actually in plot or character development. Thanks for making me consider this more. So you ultimately view it as a 'happy', positive sort of story then? Good to know Thanks Tim! So you preferred it to If No One Notices? I'd actually love to hear other thoughts on this. Which one do you guys like better? As I said, this anthology was actually supposed to be for last anthology, but I misunderstood the topic LOL, thanks, Tiff! I think Good observations! I was trying to portray Greg and Trevor in very different ways but ultimately show that neither was really better-adjusted or easier to get along with than the other. In many ways I think Greg comes off as the traditional, cold, unemotional, stand-offish male, and like many of these types it doesn't mean he doesn't care, sometimes he can even say that he cares, what it means is that he won't show that he cares openly (only doing so after Trevor's gone to bed). With Trevor, I suppose he's actually more of the traditional overly emotional, nagging 'female'. He's romantic, but he gets nasty when his expectations aren't met. He'll say and act as though he cares, but he'll purposely do things to test Greg, perhaps even to hurt him. He's constantly looking for and needing proof that Greg cares. In many ways I feel like this story would have worked almost as well if Trevor had simply been a woman. Indeed, I feel like this story expresses gender/relationship roles that I normally purposely try to circumvent. I by no means whatsoever mean to say that this is how I actually view the average man or the average 'woman'. Nor is it a reflection of how I view gay male and/or lesbian relationships that do adhere to these more structured roles of dominant/passive etc. However, it's certainly no coincidence that their relationship is heavy on 'traditional' roles and as such I've portrayed it as so painful and many times unsatisfying. I didn't even mean to do it, but it's probably a commentary of my general attitude toward traditional roles in a relationship (male/female, male/male, or female/female, I just don't like set relationship roles and expectations). Perhaps that's also why I ultimately gave the relationship some hope. I personally think that 'traditional' relationships are less than ideal, but I think it is possible for them to survive and that many people even purposely enter them. So by giving Trevor and Greg a little hope, or a little light at the end of the tunnel, I wanted to say that "this isn't how I think it should be done, but if it works..." Anyway, which character did you like better? Do you think my assessment of relationship roles is accurate and valid with regards to this relationship? I'd meant to reply to most of the comments in this thread with this post, but I've already gone on for quite awhile so I'll stop here for now. I'd love to hear back from you, Corvus and Tiff, about what you thought of my comments to your questions/comments, and I'd also love to hear what others thought about these issues! Thanks everyone -Kevin

LOL, thanks for the vote of confidence guys! So yeah, this is a situation I've found myself in from both sides on many occasions. First I was in love with my best friend, then I only wanted him as a friend, then he kept acting weird and dropping hints that he wanted more...and now I think we're both just happy with the close friendship. Another friend of mine has pretty much always wanted me and only been vaguely discrete about it. A third friend I've pretty much always wanted...and only been vaguely discrete about. With this one I can certainly identify with your feelings because one evening I suddenly realized that I was helping him pick out his clothes and get ready and even ironed his shirt for him...so that some other guy could get him out of those clothes later. Eh, I think I'm mostly over him anyway. Apart from that there have been countless fleeting crushes on both sides with quite a few other friends. Anyway, nothing new for me. I think it's inevitable when all your friends are openly gay. We cuddle sometimes too, and occasionally I do the hello/goodbye kiss thing with some of them, but for the most part we aren't nearly as sexual as it sounds like you and Nathan are. On these matters, my opinion generally tends to fall in line with what you and Nathan have decided. Basically that "boyfriends come and go, but friends are more important and enduring." Personally, I don't regret never having hooked up with/dated/etc any of my friends. In fact I've always been as careful as possible to avoid 'friendcest'. Nevertheless, because you've already gone further with Nathan than I have with my friends, and based on what you're saying, I have to say that my advice counters my general attitude on the subject (not to mention the general way I've always handled the situation). I have to say that I think you should go for it! You're attracted to each other. You love each other. You have romantic feelings for him, and it sounds to me like he does - or at least could - have romantic feelings for you...that's pretty much a relationship, dude. I kinda have a good feeling about this based on what you've said as well. Besides, yes you run the risk of losing an awesome friend that you love very much, but I think it's worth it if you could have an awesome boyfriend you love very much. That best friend of mine that I've never managed to sync my romantic feelings with at the same time as him...well if I could I would. It's scary as hell because I'd hate to lose him...but if I only were in love with him - and if he were still in love with me - I really can't imagine it not working out for us. ...But I'm not in love with him, and I think he's over me. Anyway, apart from all that, you know there's still a chance that you could be friends with him again even if you did give it a shot and it didn't work out. Lots of couples have stayed friends. It isn't always easy - okay it's never easy - and I would still encourage a period of distance after the break up, but ultimately if you both made the effort you could probably have your friendship back. My advice, next time this bad news ex hurts him again and you're consoling him, kiss him. Just as you've done before, only this time let it get out of hand. Use some tongue, put your hands on his face or run them through his hair, whatever, just let it happen next time. When you break the kiss confess your feelings. Tell him how much he means to you and how much you want him (be open and emotional about it). Tell him how scared you are of ruining the friendship but how great you think a relationship could be and how much you want to try. Decide together what to do. But tell him your feelings openly and honestly, and listen to his. Good luck, man! -Kevin

I just wanted to wish Greenmann a very happy and special birthday! I always really enjoy your comments and insights on the various threads in which you post. I look forward to interacting with you more in the future. Have a terrific day! -Kevin

Have an awesome birthday, dude!

Happy Birthday, Michelle!! I hope you have a truly fantastic one!

Yay for Coley's birthday! Have a great one!

It's fantastic, Mikie! I really like it! *sigh* I have that attitude with shoes, belts, shirts, etc....it's cost me more than a few high credit card bills Ohh, you should come to Houston! We have several gorgeous ones in our aquarium (yes I said aquarium ) I've never actually seen either. Always meant to... Yep, nifty avatar, Demetz