Interesting: Australia and Islam

[rknapp]

I was flipping through a group that I belong to on facebook that is essentially patriotic, and I found that someone posted something from an e-mail that he recieved. Here it is:

 

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

 

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you", he said on National Television.

 

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia: one the Australian law and another Islamic law that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option", Costello said.

 

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off. Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want, to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off", he said.

 

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.

 

Quote: "IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.

 

However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of Australia being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. And as Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

 

We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!

 

Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.

 

We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.

 

If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.

 

This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedoms,

'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.

 

If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

 

 

 

 

This is really something that America needs... too many times have customers come through my line and not spoken a word of English. Multiple times have I cursed at the bastages, only for them to smile at me!

[JamesSavik]

If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.

 

 

I fully support Australia in their fight against flea bitten, religious fanatic, goat molesters that have so f_cked up their own countries that they feel the need to spread the love.

 

Don't worry about running out of toe-tags. We'll make more. We care enough to send the very best... cluster bombs.

[Menzoberranzen]

I very much agree with their positions. Why is it that the West (and Australia, by implication ) is always the one giving way, affording more rights to others at the expense of our own?

[jfalkon]

They are right to protect their culture. I don't know why imigrants so often have no respect for the country they move to. My grandmother was this way. She wanted all of America to learn her language and celebrate her holidays. She used to drive me nuts when she started complaining. This sort of behavior is unfortunately quite common here in California. We border on Mexico and anyone who wants to come to the USA seems to come through Mexico (legaly or otherwise). Its becoming quite a sore issue.

[Graeme]

*coughs*

 

Can anyone verify the accuracy of this email? While the sentiments agree with the general attitude of certain members of the federal government here in Australia, the language used it extreme and I find it questionable that these things were actually said -- or if they were said, they've been taken out of context.

 

I also personally disagree with a lot of the sentiments stated. Australia is a nation built on immigration. Our native Australian population is, I think, approximately 2% of the total population. The rest of the population are immigrants or descendants of recent immigrants. While white anglo-saxons make up a good percentage of that number, we have very significant levels of Greek, Italian, Chinese, and Vietnamese immigrants (to name, but a few). Many of those immigrants came here without being able to speak English, and have contributed greatly to our nation. While the parents may not be good English speakers, the second and third generation are true Australians, even if they retain a lot of their original culture.

 

The view expressed above by John Howard on multi-culturalism have been criticised by a lot of the media here (yes, he did say something along those lines). Australia's culture IS a mixture of many cultures. As a simple example, in Melbourne alone I have eaten the following cuisines: Italian, Greek, Chinese, Vietnamese, Mongolian, Lebanese, Thai, French, German, English, American, Mexican, Polish, Indian, and probably a few others that I've forgotten. I know of a Nepalese restuarant, though I've not eaten there. We have all of these because we have people of these nationalities, and many others, living here.

 

As for religion, church going christians are a minority in this country. From memory, the figure is about 30% of the population. The last census had Christian as just under 70% of the population, but had 25% as either No Religion or didn't state a religion. While we are a "christian" nation, we do not have a strong religious basis to our society (and I'm saying that as a church going christian). As an example, religion normally plays little role in our elections and religious leaders usually do not intrude heavily into election campaigns, though do (and are expected to) weigh in on political matters.

 

One of my work colleagues is Jordanian. He came out here recently, but fits in extremely well. Another is Polish -- he came here while Poland was still a communist country. We have increasing numbers of Africans in Australia, with the unrest in certain parts. While they arrive as refugees, they can find a supportive community here from people have came earlier.

 

When the Sydney Olympics were held, I believe that almost every nation (if not every one) were greeted by expatriates from their nation.

 

Australia is and almost certainly will always be a mix of many cultures. While English is the dominant culture, it is by no means an overwhelming majority.

 

In this particular case, I do not believe the views expressed above agree with those of a significant number of Australians. They may agree with a majority -- I don't know -- but I would be surprised if they did, and I would be even more surprised if it was a strong majority.

 

Just my opinion....

[Bondwriter]

No source is given, the rhetoric is the anti-immigrant rhetoric that dates back to decades (I could find the same far right-wing stuff in the 1890s press about Italians or Poles who "don't want to adapt"), and it's always the same "being a proud white western male will get you attacked by the PC police".

 

This has nothing to do here, sorry.

[Ieshwar]

Guys, don't you find all this a bit..too harsh?

 

We do have Muslims over here and they're not like this! Ok, a few are fanatics, but so are some Hindus and Christians! I got Muslim friends who follow the same laws as me and talk English better than me. They never say anything wrong about any religion and we also don't say anything about their religion.

 

But perhaps, the letter is taking about some Muslim extremists.

 

And the fact that it comes from Australia shocked me. I love this country for its acceptance and now

 

I strongly believe that this letter is from weirdo... I hope.

 

Ieshwar

[JamesSavik]

Christian fanatics haven't been known to slaughter innocent people en mass for 800 years or so.

 

Islamic fundamentalists kill an average of just over 100 people per day worldwide and have for the past twenty years¹.

 

When the Taliban was in charge of Afghanistan, the traditional punishment for homosexuality was to collapse a wall on the accused. Less than two weeks before the Sept. 11 attacks, the beheadings of two Afghani homosexuals made headlines in the New York Post and CourtTV².

 

More recently, the Iranians executed two teenagers by hanging.

 

Islam is quite unlike other religions in that it is very, very political containing a highly militant societial blueprint: the Islamic texts design a culture bent on cultural hegemony and world domination. In fact the Koran calls for the extermination of non-Muslims in holy war. If that war can not be won, the Koran further instructs Muslims to have a truce but no peace treaty with their non-Muslim enemies. The war can then go on to victory 10, 50, 100 or 1000 years later- whenever conditions for a Muslim victory are favorable³.

 

While I detest religious fanatics of any variety, Islam is particulary dangerous because of its militant and xenophobic nature.

 

The word Islam means submission which is how you get along with Muslims: you must submit to their laws and their religion. You must surrender your freedom.

 

Don't be fooled by politically correct b*llshitte. The only reason Muslims aren't an even bigger danger is that the various sects hate each other as much as they hate non-Muslims. Shia and Sunni are as likely to kill each other than a non-Muslim.

 

Islam is indeed a religion of peace: the peace of the dead after they have slaughtered or made slaves of everyone who is not a Muslim.

 

For GLBT people, all Islam offers you is death.

 

________________________________________________________

 

1- Gale's Encyclopedia of Terrorism, 2004.

2- Punishing Gays Under Islam: Independent Gay Forum; originally appeared Oct. 21, 2001, in the Chicago Free Press.

3- Various parts of the Koran.

[Bondwriter]

The anti-Muslim point has been made quite a few times on this site. I have no particular interest in defending religion of any kind, and especially not fanatics who oppress and murder; I just don't like inflammatory hate rhetoric of any kind, and I strongly disagree with a lot of the so-called "clash of the cultures" explanations developed over the last few years. As any simplistic theory, it allows targeting one single enemy to explain all evils. Scapegoat, anyone? Our world is somewhat more complex than this. And moderate, well-balanced Muslims exist. I know some. Imagine the uproar if Christianity was equaled to the most conservative Born-Again preachers.

 

Thanks for documenting your reply, James.

 

By the way, in August 1572 in France, close to 30,000 people were slaughtered because they were protestants, by their fellow-Christian Catholics. Talk about en masse.

 

I don't think this thread should even be here in the first place.

[Ieshwar]

I agree that there

[rknapp]

Okay I didn't start this thread to spark a war about Islam. I have no idea as to the accuracy of the e-mail, I just found it interesting that SOMEONE went public (sort of) with something that has been on many peoples' minds in many countries (USA, UK, AUS alike). I started this thread because of the cultural aspect of the e-mail.

 

Graeme, while you're right that Australia is a sort of melting pot of cultures, it's that melting pot that makes it so unique. Take for example the national language. Yes, you speak English, just like the UK and USA, but you have your own unique twist to it with an accent that makes some people weak at the knees. You have your own words that refer to things, such as "Sheela" (I'm sure that term is used only in certain areas, such as surfing destinations). Likewise, there are many differences between UK English and USA English, usually in slang. We call fried potato sticks "French Fries". The UK and the Aussies call them chips. Chips in the states are also fried potatoes, but in thin flat strips, rather than sticks.

 

Just because you have restaurants that specialize in other cultures does not mean that you do not have your own culture. America, GB, France, Germany, South Africa, and so on all have restaurants that specialize in cultures other than their own.

 

This email is targeting neither all immigrants nor all Muslims. It simply is targeting those immigrants and Muslims who refuse to speak the local language, adapt to the local culture, and respect the nation and its people which they chose to live in/with. Such immigrants are a problem here, as evidenced by the hundreds of thousands of illegal Mexican immigrants who vied for civil liberties and amnesty in recent years. They were waving their flag around proudly in protest of the oppressive American government. Why were we oppressive? Because we were forcing our culture on them, and forcing our culture on someone who chose to flee the country they are so proud of to be in our own is wrong, apparently.

 

As for Muslims, they happen to practice the most radical religion I have ever seen. Jamessavik already pointed out some of the extremities in recent years, so I'll just reiterate what was said in the e-mail that the Islamic extremists who refuse to follow the local laws in favor of their own - which do not coincide with local law - were asked to leave. The same can be said of ANYONE who does not wish to the follow the law. If I met someone on the street who said that the law in America to not drive on the left side of the road was not something they agreed with, I would tell them to move to Great Britain, or Australia, or some other country that does drive on the left. The other Muslims, those who DO follow the local law and respect the local culture were very clearly welcomed warmly, as they should.

[old bob]

Once again

[Menzoberranzen]

People are equating 'Muslims' with 'Muslims who want to live by Sharia law.' The two are not one and the same, and to my knowledge it is only the latter with which the Australian government has problems. (Although, re-reading it I must echo Graeme's sentiment that these are not really the words of government officials.)

 

You can't immigrate to a country and refuse to adapt to their laws, and their morals. It's fine to have a distinct culture, but it's not fine for that culture to be in direct opposition to the moral values and laws of that country.

 

[NaperVic]

This is really something that America needs... too many times have customers come through my line and not spoken a word of English. Multiple times have I cursed at the bastages, only for them to smile at me!

 

Most immigrants I know do try to learn the local language because knowing the language gives them freedom to do more. The younger have an easier time with it, and the older (such as my grandmother) had a harder time. It's been my experience that many are embarassed that they might mispronounce a word or not know a particular word and they try to get by with as few words as possible.

 

I've also found that if you are willing to work with someone (such as gestures or giving word suggestions), English as a Second Language (ESL) people do relish the opportunity to try to communicate better in English.

 

So maybe instead of cursing at them, maybe try helping them with the language. Little, positive steps like this will assist them in assimilating better into our society.

 

Otherwise, perhaps you should consider moving to France where that attitude toward not being fluent in the language might serve you well as a waiter.

 

Take Care®,

 

Vic

[old bob]

Otherwise, perhaps you should consider moving to France where that attitude toward not being fluent in the language might serve you well as a waiter.

Take Care

Edited September 8, 2007 by old bob

[C James]

OKay, we need to cool things down here just a bit...

 

It's not right to stereotype (and it's against GA's rules, too); There are Muslims who do not support Sharia or the extremists, and who are tolerant. Lumping them all together is unfair, and also counter-productive from our own standpoint. You can't say all Muslims are X any more than you can say all Christians are X or all gays are X, etc.

 

CJ

[AFriendlyFace]

I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, but being a fairly opinionated person...

 

Can anyone verify the accuracy of this email?

....

....

....

In this particular case, I do not believe the views expressed above agree with those of a significant number of Australians. They may agree with a majority -- I don't know -- but I would be surprised if they did, and I would be even more surprised if it was a strong majority.

No source is given, the rhetoric is the anti-immigrant rhetoric that dates back to decades (I could find the same far right-wing stuff in the 1890s press about Italians or Poles who "don't want to adapt"), and it's always the same "being a proud white western male will get you attacked by the PC police".

 

This has nothing to do here, sorry.

Guys, don't you find all this a bit..too harsh?

 

We do have Muslims over here and they're not like this! Ok, a few are fanatics, but so are some Hindus and Christians! I got Muslim friends who follow the same laws as me and talk English better than me. They never say anything wrong about any religion and we also don't say anything about their religion.

 

But perhaps, the letter is taking about some Muslim extremists.

 

And the fact that it comes from Australia shocked me. I love this country for its acceptance and now

 

I strongly believe that this letter is from weirdo... I hope.

 

Ieshwar

The anti-Muslim point has been made quite a few times on this site. I have no particular interest in defending religion of any kind, and especially not fanatics who oppress and murder; I just don't like inflammatory hate rhetoric of any kind, and I strongly disagree with a lot of the so-called "clash of the cultures" explanations developed over the last few years. As any simplistic theory, it allows targeting one single enemy to explain all evils. Scapegoat, anyone? Our world is somewhat more complex than this. And moderate, well-balanced Muslims exist. I know some. Imagine the uproar if Christianity was equaled to the most conservative Born-Again preachers.

....

 

....

 

I don't think this thread should even be here in the first place.

 

I agree that there’re LOTS of point with which I don’t agree at all in Islam. It’s wrong to treat someone’s religion like this. I had written much more but I deleted them, except these few lines.

 

And in my opinion, terrorism has no religion.

.....

.....

P.S- I agree that this thread is... not good.

Once again

Edited September 8, 2007 by AFriendlyFace

[Graeme]

A friend of mine tracked down the email and the quotes. As I expected, while the quote are accurate, they have been taken out of context and twisted to make them look like something they are not.

[JamesSavik]

I'm sorry gentlemen but that politically correct dog just won't hunt.

 

It is bad enough that we as gay people have to put up with hyper-Christians and Mormons, I'll be damned if I'm going to say nice things about a bunch of sick religious fanatics that hang gay teenagers.

 

Not all Muslims are fundamentalist wackos however, the calm, reasoned voices of Islamic Liberals and Moderates are silent for fear that they will be murdered.

 

What is outright frightening is that some of those fundamentalist wackos are in control of countries which are economically and militarily powerful [like Iran and the United States].

[Dalmatia]

We do have Muslims over here and they're not like this! Ok, a few are fanatics, but so are some Hindus and Christians! I got Muslim friends who follow the same laws as me and talk English better than me. They never say anything wrong about any religion and we also don't say anything about their religion.

 

Ieshwar

 

Yeah I have to say thats pretty much what it is here with me and my friends, even them talking english better then me

 

And in my opinion, terrorism has no religion.

 

The first person to tell me that he was ok with a gay guy is a Muslim. The only person (a second person) to whom I

[colinian]

Most immigrants I know do try to learn the local language because knowing the language gives them freedom to do more. The younger have an easier time with it, and the older (such as my grandmother) had a harder time. It's been my experience that many are embarassed that they might mispronounce a word or not know a particular word and they try to get by with as few words as possible.

 

I've also found that if you are willing to work with someone (such as gestures or giving word suggestions), English as a Second Language (ESL) people do relish the opportunity to try to communicate better in English.

 

So maybe instead of cursing at them, maybe try helping them with the language. Little, positive steps like this will assist them in assimilating better into our society...

 

Take Care

[Razor]

Well, well, well... this is interesting.

 

It reminds me of the South Park episode where the immigrants come from the future and then all the rednecks are like "THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!!" and yeah... you should watch it, it's great. Anyway, um, yeah... I'm not even gonna attempt to argue a point in here because somebody'll get mad.

[NaperVic]

Otherwise, perhaps you should consider moving to France where that attitude toward not being fluent in the language might serve you well as a waiter.

 

 

Hey Vic, what do you mean with that ?

Anything against France and waiters ?

 

 

Vic, I assume you were joking here, right? I think you are referring to the the Acad

[glomph]

Most people in our country are straight. If gay people can't assimilate, then they should all get on planes and go to countries where the people are gay. Oh, and be sure to use the restroom before you leave home. We don't want you in our airport restrooms playing footsie.

[AFriendlyFace]

Most people in our country are straight. If gay people can't assimilate, then they should all get on planes and go to countries where the people are gay. Oh, and be sure to use the restroom before you leave home. We don't want you in our airport restrooms playing footsie.

 

In all seriousness I truly think assimilation is a natural occurrence. Since they're the group being focused on here, let's say a Muslim family immigrates to the U.S. Sure maybe initially they're going to feel intimidated by the American neighbours, and maybe based on their religious beliefs they will feel superior. Maybe their American neighbours will be similarly intimidated and condescending. However, as time goes by and the Muslims meet nice, accepting, friendly, helpful Americans, and as their children play and grow up with the American children, I think it's only natural to assume that they'll gradually begin to see Americans, at least some Americans as "good people", and they may personally feel less inclined to kill or enslave them even assuming they had those radical ideologies in the first place. Similarly I think the Americans immediately in their "sphere" will gradually become less distrustful of them, and hopefully more accepting of different cultures and religions. In the end both parties will better understand the other and everyone will benefit.

 

Sure this is perhaps an overly optimistic projection of what might happen, but I really think it is a possible, if not likely, outcome. Sure they'll be bumps in the road, but in the end I think people will move toward acceptance.

 

It's like with gay people for example, the more gay people an individual actually knows the more likely he or she is to gradually become okay, or at least ambivalent, with it. It's easy to have your strong, "unyielding", black or white beliefs in a vacuum, but once you get exposed to actual people in actual real world settings your beliefs are bound to soften a bit and reach a happy medium.

 

As for Muslims biding their time until they can overthrow us (or whoever their host country is), that just seems very unlikely to me (unless they are treated like crud by everyone around them). Once again I think there's going to be a disconnect between what their religion might tell them (even assuming once again that they are one of the "dangerous", fundamentalist groups), and what they may technically "believe" and how they'll actually act.

 

To specifically address a point, a gay teenage hanging is definitely horrible and IMO even "reprehensible" (and that's not a word I use often), but I don't think any one person in that culture is to blame (even the executers themselves aren't completely to blame). All people have the capacity to behave in such extreme, cruel, and diluted ways. Take any one of those people out of the culture in question, leave them in a more accepting culture for a few years, then expose them to a very nice, positive gay teen, and I bet the vast majority of them won't instantly be reaching for their nooses. They may still feel that it's wrong to be gay, but behaving in a non-violent way would in itself show some general progress. Especially if they did get to the ever popular position of "hating the sin but loving the sinner". In other words if they could admit, even if only to themselves, that they personally liked the gay teen in question, but still felt that he/she was immoral, that WOULD be progress. Give it a few more generations and that same family might be having their son's boyfriend over for dinner.

 

Religion exerts the most control over people when everyone around them is the same and no one questions anything. Heck even I - someone who prides himself on being a completely non-judgmental, relativist with regards to pretty much everything - was a lot more conservative, and "absolutist" when I was in high school and grade school surrounded by nothing but other preppy, white, Catholic, southerners. LOL, I was still more open to other ideas, races, cultures, and religions than my average classmate, but even then not to the same extent that I am now.

 

I think either total "segregation" or total "diversity" is best for people. I could probably be perfectly happy living in a completely gay world where everyone thought and acted pretty much the same way I did (I wouldn't want everyone to be the same since that would be horribly boring, but the same essential values and principles would be fine). There would be no need for me to learn how to interact with straight people, or fundamentalists of any type. But that world can never exist and it's just as well that it doesn't since quite a few people I really love and care about happen to be straight and several of them even hold "absolute", unwavering ideas about things

 

So, I'm "richer" for having been exposed to all these different types of people. For learning how to empathize with people who are seemingly completely different from myself. For knowing how to agree to disagree about certain things. For getting the intellectual, philosophical, and moral workout that a good, in-depth debate can bring.

 

What would be the worst is if I did surrounded myself with nothing but "heterophobic" people who all acted and thought essentially as I did and who all came from essentially the same background. Then when I did go out in the "real world" and meet people who are different I'd be at a total loss to try to understand them. I'd also probably naturally dislike and distrust them.

 

SO, since we can't live totally homogeneous lives in totally homogeneous settings (and as I said I personally think that while this would work just fine, we're better off for not being able to). We'd might as well get out there and embrace diversity and take a minute to try to understand the other person's perspective.

 

Just my thoughts,

Kevin

Edited September 9, 2007 by AFriendlyFace