Gay Culture

[clumber]

I remember a while ago a side-discussion which cropped up in another thread concerning "Gay Culture". Basically, I attacked it while a few people attempted to defend it. I would like to bring up this topic mainly because I have tried and failed to find enough redeeming features about it for "Gay Culture" to even warrant to the term "culture", let alone defence.

 

 

First, I would like to make it clear that I know the difference between "Gay Culture" and "Gay Club Culture"... However, it does seem to me that Club Culture is one of the very rare instances of Gay Culture being easily defined as separate.

 

-Humour

-History

-Art

-Literature (indeed I would say that you're probably at least marginalized exposed to, and I would speculate enjoying, this aspect of gay culture already and would likely enjoy reading and contemplating print books as well)

-Music

-Movies

-Ethics and Values

-Social Perspectives.

 

You might also enjoy gay venues and gay socialization more in a non-club setting. For example gay run, and patronized:

 

-Restaurants,

-Cafes

-Stores, Businesses, and other services (almost any and every type you can imagine)

-Pubs and bars (which can often be more relaxed than clubs).

 

-There are also gay sports and recreation leagues for almost any sport or game you can imagine.

-There are quite a few gay religious organizations for almost any denomination you can think of (even the traditionally homophobic ones often have their own "gay" branch consisting of still devout followers who are attempting to reconcile their faith and sexuality).

-The are gay professional organizations for lawyers, doctors, and a ton of other careers.

-Obviously we mustn't forget things like the theatre, symphony, and opera, which are certainly stereotypical and may not be your thing, but which you might still view as more positive overall.

 

 

 

Now, while I agree that this is an impressively long list, it does seem to mostly consist of padding. (And trust me, being a student I am pretty much an expert in creating verbose mountains out of metaphorical substanceless molehills).

 

Basically, most of it seems to merely consist of other cultures but with almost heterophobic segregation introduced just for the sake of it. If we take it as given that mere segregation does not itself equal culture then we can safely remove:

 

+ "Gay proffesional Organisations"

 

+"Theatre, symphony and Opera" (I admit there is true gay culture within these things, but the actual organisations themselves are not 'gay culture').

 

+Gay Religious Organisations

 

+Gay Sports

 

+History (the concept of Gay History is as much a lack of understanding as the concept of Straight History. No histories can be taken without the inclusion of ALL aspects).

 

 

In fact, in my experience gay culture is made up almost entirely of Gay Club Culture, Gay Literature, Gay Fashion and Gay Activism.... which is where we hit on the main problem. Is activism really culture? I'd say not. Activism is the representation and justification of a culture, but not the cukture itself. As such, asctivism itself can only be seen as a representation of what the culture consists of... Since most Gay Activism consists of walking around wearing inappropriate clothing then it doesn't really do anything to support the notion of 'Gay Culture'. (Also, I'd like to add that when I say 'inappropriate clothing' I don't mean that the clothing is offensive- just impractical).

 

 

Gay Fashion is certainly separate from other fashions... but there are surely limits as to how much clothing can be considered a major part of the culture. It allows people who consider themselves to be a part of that culture to identify themselves as a part of that culture. Thats all.

 

 

Art is something which I admit is a part of gay culture. It clearly is. This website itself is a testament to that. I admire gay literature and other forms of gay arts. The earlier comment I made about there being gay culture within Theatre and Opera etc was in reference to this. Sexuality (and as a result, being gay) is a theme within the arts which is becoming more and more prominent as time goes on. Admittedly, I have not yet encounted gay music(or at least, none that is musical), but I am willing to accept that it does exist somewhere.

(This is also a good example of the padding in the list though.... Art, Music, Literature AND Movies? Surely 'Art' covers the rest.)

 

 

Then of course there is Gay Club Culture. For information just look at straight club culture and then remove anything which resembles open-mindedness. Honestly, put gay people in a club and the way we act makes the Borg look bloody liberal and accepting of differences. No real point in saying much more.

 

 

 

There were of course other things within that list though which you would expect to find within a culture but which, in my experience, seem to be very limited.

 

A good example would be "Ethics and Values". Now, that is a place where Gay Culture should truely lead. Afterall, we have all experienced oppression in some form or another and so we should surely know how to treat people fairly and with respect no matter the differences. Unfortunately most gay people seem to be more close-minded than straight people. They just happen to approach things from the other side as it were.

 

Another thing which seems to be conspicously missing from gay culture would be humour. In my opinion, most gay people need to get over themselves. Just because somebody laughs at gay people does not mean they should be instantly crushed. In many ways, gay culture seems to actively attack free humour. I can't think of any other culture which does not have parody in some form or another, yet the moment anybody makes any joke about gay people they are immediately lynched (although granted, the croud is FABULOUSLY well dressed. This itself is a comment which would no doubt result in my house getting bricked in other less anonymous envoronment).

 

 

 

Anyway, rant over. Over to the defenders.

 

 

Martin

Edited April 16, 2009 by clumber

[old bob]

......Another thing which seems to be conspicously missing from gay culture would be humour. In my opinion, most gay people need to get over themselves. Just because somebody laughs at gay people does not mean they should be instantly crushed. In many ways, gay culture seems to actively attack free humour. I can't think of any other culture which does not have parody in some form or another, yet the moment anybody makes any joke about gay people they are immediately lynched.

Martin

Here a test about jokes about gays :

LORD NELSON

The new inmate at the mental hospital announced in a loud voice that he was the famous British naval hero, Lord Nelson. This was particularly interesting, because the institution already had a "Lord Nelson. The head psychiatrist, after due consideration, decided to put

the two men in the same room, feeling that the similarity of their delusions might prompt an adjustment in each that would help in curing them. It was a calculated risk, of course, for the two men might react violently to one another, but they were introduced and then left alone and no disturbance was heard from the room that night.The next morning, the doctor had a talk with his new patient and was more than pleasantly surprised when he was told "Doctor, I've been suffering from a delusion. I know now for a fact that I am not Lord Nelson.

"That's wonderful," said the doctor. "Who are you?" Smiling coyly, the patient replied, "I'm Lady Nelson."

CONDOM

A gay man walks into a drugstore and asks the pharmacist whether he sells extra-large condoms. The pharmacist replies,

"Yes we do. We stock the 'Magnum' brand by Trojan. Would you like to buy some?" He responds, "No sir. But would you mind if I waited around here until someone does?"

HOLIDAY FUN

Two couples decide to spend the weekend away together at a posh hotel. When they get there, one guy suggests they indulge in partner-swapping as a trial. After 2 hours of solid sex by the fireside, the guy turned to his new partner and said, "Wow! This is the very best sex I had in years... I wonder how the girls are doing?"

BOSS'S DILEMA

Boss, to four of his employees: "I'm really sorry, but I'm going to have to let one of you go." Black Employee: "I'm a protected minority."

Female Employee: "And I'm a woman." Oldest Employee: "Fire me Buster, and I'll hit you with an age discrimination suit so fast, it'll make your head spin." To which they all turn to look at the helpless young, white, male employee, who thinks a moment, then responds: "I think I might be gay..."

GAY SON

A gay man, finally deciding he could no longer hide his sexuality from his parents, finally deciding he could no longer hide his sexuality from his parents, went over to their house and found his mother in the kitchen cooking dinner. He sat down at the kitchen table, let out a big sigh, and said, "Mom, I have something to tell you: I'm gay."

His mother made no reply. The guy was about to repeat himself when she turned away from the pot she was stirring and said calmly, "You're gay, doesn't that mean you put other men's penises in your mouth?" The guy said nervously, "Uh, yeah, Mom, that's right."

His mother whirled around, whacked him over the head with her spoon and said, "Don"t you ever complain about my cooking again!"

SMALL GUY

A small guy goes into an elevator, when he gets in he notices a huge guy standing next to him. The big guy looks down upon the small white guy and says, "7 foot tall, 350 pounds, 20 inch dick, 3 pound left ball, 3 pound right ball, Turner Brown." The small guy faints!

The big guy picks up the small guy and brings him to, slapping his face and shaking him and asks the small guy, "What's wrong?"

The small guy says, "Excuse me but what did you say?". The big guy looks down and says "7 foot tall, 350 pounds, 20 inch dick, 3 pound left ball, 3 pound right ball, my name is Turner Brown." The small guy says "Thank God, I thought you said, "Turn around."

GAY GORILLA

Two gay guys are walking through a zoo. They come across the gorillas, and after a while they notice that the male gorilla seems sexually aroused. One of the men just can't bear it any longer and reaches into the cage to touch the powerful mammal’s member. The gorilla grabs him, drags him into the cage and mates with him for six hours non-stop. When he's done, the gorilla throws the man back out of the cage. An ambulance is called and the man is rushed to hospital. Next day his friend visits the ward and asks, "Are you hurt?" "AM I HURT?" he shouts in reply. "Wouldn't you be? He hasn't called, he hasn't written ..."

ALL OUR SONS

Four men go golfing together, three head to the first tee and one goes into the club house to take care of the bill. The three men start talking, bragging about their sons. The first man tells the others, "My son is a home builder and he's so successful that he gave a friend a new home - for free." The second man says, "My son was a car salesman and now he owns a multi-line dealership. He's so successful that he gave a friend two BMWs." The third man, not wanting to be outdone, brags, "My son is a stock broker and he's doing so well that he gave his friend an entire stock portfolio." The fourth man joins them on the tee after a few minutes of taking care of business. The first man mentions, "We were just talking about our sons. How is yours doing?" The fourth man replies, "Well, my son is gay and he must be pretty good at it. His last three boyfriends gave him a house, two cars and a stock portfolio."

And this one is for me :

OLD GAY MAN

What a drag it is getting old… When I went to the bar tonight, I noticed this old boy about 75-80 years sitting all alone in the corner and he was crying over his cocktail. I stopped and asked him what was wrong. He said: “I have a 22 year old lover at home. I met him a month or so ago, right here in this very bar!” He continued; “He makes love to me every morning and then he makes me pancakes, sausage, fresh fruit and freshly ground, brewed coffee.” I said: “Well, then why are you crying?” He said: “He makes me homemade soup for lunch and my favorite brownies and then he makes love to me half the afternoon.” I said: “Well, so why are you crying?”

He said: “For dinner he makes me a gourmet meal with wine and my favorite dessert and then he makes love to me until 2 :00 am.”

I said: “Well, for goodness sakes! Why in the world would you be CRYING!”

And he said: “I CAN’T REMEMBER WHERE I LIVE!!

 

Should I now be immediately lynched ?

Edited April 16, 2009 by old bob

[clumber]

Should I now be immediately lynched ?

 

 

 

Great Jokes!

 

I think the mob is fighting itself at the moment. Apparently they were all wearing the same outfit.

 

 

Also, my comment about the whole "gay jokes = lynching" thing is just my experience so far... most of the time it seems that the only people who can laugh at gay people are blokes in dresses.

 

....You're not wearing a dress, are you Bob?

 

 

Martin

[old bob]

Great Jokes!

I think the mob is fighting itself at the moment. Apparently they were all wearing the same outfit.

Also, my comment about the whole "gay jokes = lynching" thing is just my experience so far... most of the time it seems that the only people who can laugh at gay people are blokes in dresses.

....You're not wearing a dress, are you Bob?

Martin

a fancy dress ?

why not ?

No more joking !

I can imagine that a gay guy, not clear with himself, fighting either against or at least not accepting to be gay, trying to avoid all the difficulties and perhaps the pain inherent to gayness, could let go his anger about "gay" jokes. Laughing about any kind of misery is certainly not acceptable for the people suffering. But for those who accept to be what they effectively are, laughing about themselves was always a way to increase their resistance against the difficulties of life. Look at the Jewish jokes as a good example. The first one I learnt to use, as a Jewish child :

"Somebody says : "I dont like Jews, they have no right to be on earth".

My answer : "yes, the Jews and the cyclists also !"

the other : "Why the cyclists ?

My answer : "Why the Jews ?"

Edited April 16, 2009 by old bob

[JamesSavik]

Gay man to his doctor: Doctor- if I give up men, drinking and partying all night, will I live longer?

 

Doctor: Well... it will seem a lot longer.

[KJames]

Gay man to his doctor: Doctor- if I give up men, drinking and partying all night, will I live longer?

 

Doctor: Well... it will seem a lot longer.

 

 

Good James!

[Graeme]

 

Well, Martin, it doesn't look like the lynching squad is being assembled. They're too busy laughing at themselves

 

Seriously, I think the problem you're having is your definition of 'culture' is different to other peoples. I remember that other thread and since my definition of 'culture' is close to yours, I see your problem. But since I recognise that others have a different, broader definition of 'culture', I don't mind them using the term 'gay culture', even though for me it's largely meaningless.

[W_L]

I love gay Humor:

 

A couple of shots:

 

There was this man who walked into a bar and says to the bartender 10 shots of whiskey.

 

The bartender asks, "What's the matter?"

 

The man says, "I found out my brother is gay and marrying my best friend."

 

The next day the same man comes in and orders 12 shots of whiskey.

 

The bartenders asks, "What's wrong this time?"

 

The man says, "I found out that my son is gay."

 

The next day the same man comes in the bar and orders 15 shots of whiskey.

 

Then the bartender asks, "Doesn't anyone in your family like women?"

 

The man looks up and says, "Apprently my wife does."

 

Now for a little language training in Gay speach:

 

Gay Translator:

 

"I want a commitment."

<Translation>

I'm sick of masturbation.

 

"Haven't I seen you before?"

Nice ass.

 

"I need you."

My hand is tired.

 

"You're the only man I've ever cared about."

You are the only man who hasn't rejected me.

 

"I'm a Romantic."

I'm poor.

 

"I really want to get to know you better."

So I can tell my friends about it.

 

"It's just orange juice, try it."

3 more shots, and he'll have his legs around my head.

 

"He's kinda cute."

I want to have sex with him till my dick turns blue!

 

"He's not my type."

He won't sleep with me.

 

"I miss you so much"

I am so horny that my dog is starting to look good.

 

"I had a wonderful time last night."

Who the hell are you?

 

"Do you love me?"

I've done something stupid and you might find out.

 

"Do you 'really' love me?"

I've done something stupid and you're going to find out.

 

"I'll give you a call."

I'd rather have my nipples torn off by wild dogs than see you again.

 

"I've been thinking a lot."

You're not as attractive as when I was drunk.

 

"I think we should just be friends."

You're ugly.

 

"I've learned a lot from you."

Next!!!!

 

Haha! I never knew about gay language.

 

 

Now, seriously, there is gay cultural history, which has changed over time. There are subtle changes over time, which is interesting historic convention.

[KJames]

W. L. - Those translations are hilarious, I told them each to Rob (my husband) and we were both laughing so hard we were crying...and he almost pee'd his pants!

[Ieshwar]

*looks around*

 

Where's the mob? I came with my slogans and all!

 

Frankly, I am one of those who don't like these jokes but surprisingly, when I read this thread, I found myself chuckling. This was really great!

 

Now i think that it depends from who it comes or the way it is meant. You guys obviously meant it in a joking way but some people downright insult gays in the way the tell their 'not-funny-at all' jokes. That's when i get pissed.

 

"I think we should just be friends."

You're ugly.

 

"He's kinda cute."

I want to have sex with him till my dick turns blue!

 

 

Thanks for the laugh!

 

Take care,

Ieshwar

[Dion]

I think... I might get what clumber was saying.

 

If gay guys tell jokes about gays it's funny. When straight guys (or women) do it, it's derogatory. It's like blonds telling blond jokes. Self-deprecation meant to humor and disarm, not offend.

 

At least it seems that way.

 

As for 'gay culture', I've often wondered if the term wasn't used to paraphrase 'gay lifestyle'. It doesn't really follow with other, similar phrases like 'African culture', 'Asian culture', 'German culture', 'Norwegian culture', etc. If you get my meaning.

 

So... the term 'culture' doesn't really apply.

 

I suppose, though, that people sometimes use the term as a nod to political correctness. Which, in itself, isn't really effective.

 

But... I'm tired tonight... so maybe this doesn't make any sense...

[clumber]

I think... I might get what clumber was saying.

 

If gay guys tell jokes about gays it's funny. When straight guys (or women) do it, it's derogatory. It's like blonds telling blond jokes. Self-deprecation meant to humor and disarm, not offend.

 

 

 

That's exactly what I mean. If a straight person had told ANY of the jokes on this page, then most of the people here laughing would have probably caved his face in with a bit of lead pipe.

 

 

Even things which are in no way at all offensive seem to get trodden on just because they mention gay people. I mean, don't get me wrong- I know there are comments, jokes and the like which are offensive. There are people who don't like gay people. I know all that. I just think that the way non-offensive stuff still gets crushed actually just makes us look bad.

 

Martin

[KJames]

That's exactly what I mean. If a straight person had told ANY of the jokes on this page, then most of the people here laughing would have probably caved his face in with a bit of lead pipe.

 

 

Even things which are in no way at all offensive seem to get trodden on just because they mention gay people. I mean, don't get me wrong- I know there are comments, jokes and the like which are offensive. There are people who don't like gay people. I know all that. I just think that the way non-offensive stuff still gets crushed actually just makes us look bad.

 

Martin

 

 

That is also an assumption...(your first paragraph, second sentence).

 

If a straight guy was telling these jokes to a crowd of mixed company hoping to thin out the crowd, he'd probably be surprised as hell if we laughed at his joke! That is how you do what is called "disarming" someone. It kind of takes the wind out of their sails, and the bravado out of their machismo, when they try to offend and get laughed at instead.

 

It works much better than getting all twisted out of shape...and it also deflects what they were trying to do back onto them, giving them a bit of a taste of their own medicine.

[Dion]

I don't really agree with the whole 'lead pipe' thing either. That seems a little extreme. But the analogy is valid.

 

A straight guy tells a gay joke and the gay guy becomes offended. Why? Because it's offensive. It was made that way. Maybe not extremely offensive but it is offensive - and that's what makes it funny. A gay guy tells the same gay joke and that makes it alright because he's poking fun at himself.

 

Carlos Mencia tells Mexican jokes, Chris Rock tells black jokes and Don Burnstick tells native jokes. It's funny because they are respectively Mexican, black and native. But it's not a good idea for anyone else to make the cracks they do. It's asking for trouble.

 

**

 

On the other hand... there are times when even the slightest mention of anything non-PC sends people off the deep end. That's wrong, too. One can't be so sensitive as to assume that every little comment is a barb designed to be hurtful. It simply isn't true.

 

I'm rambling here, sort of. I've seen both sides of the argument. Whereas I can totally understand a gay guy taking umbrage at a gay joke, I can also understand the straight guy's confusion at that reaction. It was a joke. Jokes are, sometimes, unkind. But people were laughing so they don't understand the anger from that one guy. The common response is "I wasn't making fun of you." And then there's anger on both sides because the gay guy was offended at the straight's insensitivity and the straight guy was offended at the gay's sensitivity. It's a vicious circle.

 

I think the important thing people should remember (although members here are usually good about it) is: take it in the manner it was intended. If it was meant to be funny, don't blow a major artery over it. If it was meant to wound, then you have cause to be angry. If you don't like that people find a certain genre of humor funny, don't attack the comedian. Just don't watch them again. They'll still make a living whether you're in the audience or not. If, however, someone makes a crack with the intent of being hurtful, by all means get out your galvanized weaponry - no, I don't really mean that.

 

Take things with a grain of salt - it might briefly drive up your blood pressure but it'll make life more palatable.

Edited April 17, 2009 by Dion

[Graeme]

I read a theory a long time ago that almost all humour involves hurting someone. If you think about it, it's largely right. There is very little humour that doesn't involve someone being attacked. Gay jokes -- gays. Irish jokes -- the Irish. Practical jokes -- the victim. Political jokes -- the appropriate politician/political party.

 

The correct response depends on the intent of the person telling the joke and the joke itself. Is it meant to be malicious? Jump on them from a great height. If it obviously an extreme exaggeration to try to be funny? Laugh along with everyone else.

 

Now, part of the latter option comes with education. A major objection to gay jokes (taking one example) is that not enough people are properly educated about gay people, and hence can take the jokes as being widely applicable, rather than being exaggeration for the sake of humour. That's why some minorities should be protected, to a degree, until people learn that the 'stereotypes' being propagated through humour are not really true. That's why most Irish people don't take objection to Irish jokes -- almost everyone knows that stereotype of the dumb Irishman that is the root of most of these jokes is not really true.

 

In a cosmopolitan area, most gay jokes are probably not offensive. However, in a redneck area, they probably are. The difference is in the audience: are they taking the joke as a joke and not something to be taken seriously, or do they believe that the butt of the joke represents the majority of gay people and that they can expect them to act accordingly?

 

Just a few thoughts Humour is not something that is easily analysed, and try to work out when humour crosses the line into offensive is especially difficult, since that's largely a subjective judgement, anyway.

[clumber]

That is also an assumption...(your first paragraph, second sentence).

 

If a straight guy was telling these jokes to a crowd of mixed company hoping to thin out the crowd, he'd probably be surprised as hell if we laughed at his joke! That is how you do what is called "disarming" someone. It kind of takes the wind out of their sails, and the bravado out of their machismo, when they try to offend and get laughed at instead.

 

It works much better than getting all twisted out of shape...and it also deflects what they were trying to do back onto them, giving them a bit of a taste of their own medicine.

 

 

 

Talk about assumptions, you yourself are assuming that any straight guy who tells a gay just is aiming to be offensive and doing it for the sake of "machismo"... Does it ever occur to you that a straight guy tells a gay joke for...you know...a laugh?

 

If someone is trying to be offensive, then go ahead. Break out the pitchforks. However, what if they aren't trying to be offensive? In my opinion it just makes us look bad.

 

 

Martin

[W_L]

Let me make some straight jokes

 

A pompous minister was seated next to a cowboy on a flight to Texas. After the plane was airborne, drink orders were taken. The cowboy asked for a whiskey and soda, which was promptly brought and placed before him.

 

The flight attendant then asked the minister if he would like a drink.

 

He replied in disgust, "I'd rather be savagely raped by a dozen brazen whores than let liquor touch my lips."

 

The cowboy then handed his drink back to the attendant and said, "I didn't know we had a choice."

 

:lol: :lol: