Serious issues with "Passion in the Dark", chapter 42.

[C James]

Hi.

 

I'm always uneasy when it comes to writing a sex scene, and avoid them when I can. The one in "Passion in the Dark" surely left a lot to be desired in many ways. For one thing, Eric and Jansen's first time was with Eric on Tequila. Jansen pretty much unleashed the beast. There were also plot reasons why I had to show that scene and not just allude to it the way I did to their lovemaking in the shower. You'll see why, but perhaps not for a while.

 

I can't get into detail because that would entail spoilers, but there were plot reasons for this to happen. I think I can say (looks around nervously for the Echidna) that they deal with the reasons why Eric acts as he sometimes does on Tequila. There are a lot of clues to that in the chapter, and they involve how Eric acts, and why.

 

It's been mentioned to me that what it looks like I'm doing is aiming towards Eric discovering he's only "gay" on tequila, and thus the end of Eric and Jansen as a couple. I would like to take this opportunity to assure people that that's not what is happening. (And I fervently hope that saying what isn't going to happen does not constitute a spoiler.)

 

Please let me know what ya'll think.

CJ

[Graeme]

Please let me know what ya'll think.

Okay.

It's been mentioned to me that what it looks like I'm doing is aiming towards Eric discovering he's only "gay" on tequila, and thus the end of Eric and Jansen as a couple. I would like to take this opportunity to assure people that that's not what is happening. (And I fervently hope that saying what isn't going to happen does not constitute a spoiler.)

Sorry, that's a spoiler Knives at ten paces or Spines at ten thousand miles, your choice.... :mace:

 

Well, you did ask me what I thought.....

[Phantom]

Okay.

 

Sorry, that's a spoiler Knives at ten paces or Spines at ten thousand miles, your choice.... :mace:

 

Well, you did ask me what I thought.....

 

*Protects CJ from the spines*

 

I want the story to finish!!!!!!!

 

You can spine him after it's done

[Nephylim]

I love writing sex scenes. It's the closest I get these days Howeer, I do try and confine them to where they actually add to the plot. Meaningless sex has it's place but not in stories.... well unless they are about meaningless sex of course...

[C James]

Okay.

 

Sorry, that's a spoiler Knives at ten paces or Spines at ten thousand miles, your choice.... :mace:

 

Well, you did ask me what I thought.....

 

ACK!! But, but, but... I could also so that there aren't any flying saucers in the story... Have mercy, oh anti-spoiler echidna!

 

*Protects CJ from the spines*

 

I want the story to finish!!!!!!!

 

You can spine him after it's done

 

Ummm, thanks for the protection, temporary though it may be.

 

I love writing sex scenes. It's the closest I get these days Howeer, I do try and confine them to where they actually add to the plot. Meaningless sex has it's place but not in stories.... well unless they are about meaningless sex of course...

 

I hate writing them, lol. My problem is that I find them hard to make unique. I don't do many... I think there was one in my prior novel, and now one in this one, at chapter 42... In this case, I would have avoided it, and handled it in my usual way, with a one-line allusion to the sex. However, in this case, I couldn't, because I needed to show what was going on, becuase some aspects of it are critical to the plot.

 

Thanks!!

CJ

[Benji]

Hi.

 

 

It's been mentioned to me that what it looks like I'm doing is aiming towards Eric discovering he's only "gay" on tequila, and thus the end of Eric and Jansen as a couple. I would like to take this opportunity to assure people that that's not what is happening. (And I fervently hope that saying what isn't going to happen does not constitute a spoiler.)

 

Please let me know what ya'll think.

CJ

 

.............Humm, let me think....Closet scene with Cody & Eric Tequila...........Ranch scene with Brandon & Eric Tequila.............Jansen & Eric Tequila I have no idea how you came to this conclusion!!

[shadowgod]

I still think he should ditch the stripper and go back to San Francisco....

 

I may be biased though

[Phantom]

.............Humm, let me think....Closet scene with Cody & Eric Tequila...........Ranch scene with Brandon & Eric Tequila.............Jansen & Eric Tequila I have no idea how you came to this conclusion!!

 

 

Yup lots of tequila... but look at the before and after with it...

 

What happens when he does have tequila... does he finally get to let loose? Cus before he's serious and contemplating... after he lets loose everything that goes on...

 

Just some thoughts....

 

Eric

[LongGone]

A quick comment: First, a rusty butter knife to cut off Cjames' private parts for that spoiler. I'm just saying.

 

I'm always uneasy when it comes to writing a sex scene, and avoid them when I can.

 

As for sex scenes, I rarely write them. They're generally hinted at and take place 'off camera' -- though there have been some very mild sex scenes in a few of my works.

 

However, there comes a time when one is essential to the story. I've written my first full-on hard-core on-camera sex scene for my new story. (Well I'm in the process of writing said scene.) It's absolutely essential to the story and is not gratuitous in any way. And it's proving very difficult for me to do. I just don't like on-camera sex scenes in my stories.

 

The real solution in most cases is to write them off-camera as much as possible. You're a writer, but if you don't get this, I can explain how.

 

The downside is you'll lose half your readers because too may readers want porn and not literature. I prefer the quality of readers I have over a large quantity of them. I prefer to produce a work that is well-received as opposed to well-read.

[C James]

A quick comment: First, a rusty butter knife to cut off Cjames' private parts for that spoiler. I'm just saying.

 

ACK! E Tu Wibby?? I think I better run... and hide!

 

As for sex scenes, I rarely write them. They're generally hinted at and take place 'off camera' -- though there have been some very mild sex scenes in a few of my works.

 

However, there comes a time when one is essential to the story. I've written my first full-on hard-core on-camera sex scene for my new story. (Well I'm in the process of writing said scene.) It's absolutely essential to the story and is not gratuitous in any way. And it's proving very difficult for me to do. I just don't like on-camera sex scenes in my stories.

 

The real solution in most cases is to write them off-camera as much as possible. You're a writer, but if you don't get this, I can explain how.

 

The downside is you'll lose half your readers because too may readers want porn and not literature. I prefer the quality of readers I have over a large quantity of them. I prefer to produce a work that is well-received as opposed to well-read.

 

I too rarely write sex scenes; this one is the first in this novel, and it's near the end. Like you, I faced a situation where this one was essential for the story for reasons that would not have worked had I done my usual allusion to off-camera sex. As an example, a more normal "sex scene" in one of my stories would be a single line or two, something like, " For the second time that night, the two became one." Or, if I want to be really explicit (for me) I'll close an entire scene or chapter with a paragraph such as: "Their tongues dueled, passions rising, as Chase let his hands roam on Brandon

[MikeL]

.............Humm, let me think....Closet scene with Cody & Eric Tequila...........Ranch scene with Brandon & Eric Tequila.............Jansen & Eric Tequila I have no idea how you came to this conclusion!!

Yup lots of tequila... but look at the before and after with it...

 

What happens when he does have tequila... does he finally get to let loose? Cus before he's serious and contemplating... after he lets loose everything that goes on...

 

Just some thoughts....

 

Eric

I see a difference in Eric's three tequila-enabled gay encounters. The first two (Cody and Brandon) were instantaneous flings occurring after he drank the worm-infested spirits. In fact, the first one was deliberately initiated by Cody. The latest encounter, with Jansen, followed a significant number of preliminaries initiated by Eric. Indeed, the night they spent together may have happened without tequila. The drink may only have made it a bit more frantic than it otherwise would have been.

 

CJ said:

It's been mentioned to me that what it looks like I'm doing is aiming towards Eric discovering he's only "gay" on tequila, and thus the end of Eric and Jansen as a couple. I would like to take this opportunity to assure people that that's not what is happening.

If that constitutes a spoiler, it got lost among all the cliffhangers. Edited June 27, 2009 by MikeL

[hh5]

The downside is you'll lose half your readers because too may readers want porn and not literature. I prefer the quality of readers I have over a large quantity of them. I prefer to produce a work that is well-received as opposed to well-read.

 

mmmm why not well ridden with hickkies!!!!

 

then jansen can't say "exotic dancers!!!"

[Conner]

...

 

As for sex scenes, I rarely write them. They're generally hinted at and take place 'off camera' -- though there have been some very mild sex scenes in a few of my works.

 

However, there comes a time when one is essential to the story. I've written my first full-on hard-core on-camera sex scene for my new story. (Well I'm in the process of writing said scene.) It's absolutely essential to the story and is not gratuitous in any way. And it's proving very difficult for me to do. I just don't like on-camera sex scenes in my stories.

 

The real solution in most cases is to write them off-camera as much as possible. You're a writer, but if you don't get this, I can explain how.

 

The downside is you'll lose half your readers because too may readers want porn and not literature. I prefer the quality of readers I have over a large quantity of them. I prefer to produce a work that is well-received as opposed to well-read.

 

This has to be one of the most pretentious posts I have come across in a long time.

 

You write only "literature", do you?

 

A "quality reader" is one who likes the way you handle sex scenes?

 

That's all so marvelous! I'm sure you'll be a hosted author any day now.

[Duncan Ryder]

CJ, relax. It's fine. If you need a sex scene, you write a sex scene. And I think the way you get good at writing scenes with sex in them is by....writing scenes with sex in them.

 

I wonder if we all need to liberate our inner sexual writers...

 

I love writing scenes with sexual content. I mean, I like to think I write love scenes rather than sex scenes, and I would deny to the death that I write anything that even faintly could qualify as porn, but really....I LOVE writing love scenes. Right on camera. Yup. Right there. To me, it's such a wonderful, magical, mystical, powerful metaphor.

[TalonRider]

That's all so marvelous! I'm sure you'll be a hosted author any day now.

Wibby is hosted and he's got some good stories.

 

Oh, and it's not nice to mess with this wiley critter.

[Graeme]

Getting serious about the initial questions, here's my view:

 

1. There is absolutely nothing wrong with sex scenes when they are appropriate to the story. It then becomes a personal taste thing with the author (and target audience) as to how much is included and how much is left to the readers imagination. Everyone has a different opinion on this, so you'll never satisfy everyone.

 

Taking myself as an example, my number one reader is my wife. She has asked that she not read sex scenes, so I don't write them (though she did give me the option of writing two versions -- one for her to read and one for others). I also happen to share the similar views to CJ and WBMS in that even if I did write a sex scene, I would do so only if I felt is was necessary to the plot (and I seriously considered one for The Price of Friendship if the story had developed in that direction).

 

However, there are many talented authors who include detailed sex scenes in their stories and there's nothing wrong with that. Sex scenes help develop characters, and a good sex scene shows a lot about the participants (eg. the sex scene in Shadowgod's Dreams 'n Clipped Wings). The quantity of sex scenes is up to the author, and that is as it should be. When an author writes, there is almost always a target audience in mind. Sometimes that's people who like reading sex scenes (and let's be honest, there are a lot of people out there who like sex scenes ), and sometimes that target audience is people who don't (like my wife). It's up to the author what they want to do.

 

However, when sex scenes dominate the story, where the plot is more just an artifice for the characters to have sex, then that's pretty much the definition of porn. Now there's nothing wrong with porn, because it certainly is popular, but I think it needs to be separated from the group of stories where the reader is looking for a story. The two have different target audiences (though an individual reader can certainly belong to both groups )

 

2. Is Eric only gay when on Tequila? I think MikeL has answered that one above. Eric has shown affection, etc., to Jansen many times when he's not on Tequila. Sex is only part of the whole relationship, and so I don't see that Eric needs to be on Tequila to be in a relationship with Jansen.

[TalonRider]

As a reader, I'm reading a story for its sex. I'm more interested in the plot. If it happens to be there, it's no big deal to me.

 

I read Graeme and Wibby's stories and have enjoyed everything that I've read of theirs. Another author that I read, Jamie, doesn't include sex in his story. He has eluded to it, but he's never gotten descriptive with it and he won't either.

 

A story can be interesting without the sex and I can agree, it can help a story sometimes. Or it can detract from it.

 

And I've said this before. If I want something with explicit sex in it, I'll go to Nifty.

[Benji]

As a reader, I'm reading a story for its sex. I'm more interested in the plot. If it happens to be there, it's no big deal to me.

 

I read Graeme and Wibby's stories and have enjoyed everything that I've read of theirs. Another author that I read, Jamie, doesn't include sex in his story. He has eluded to it, but he's never gotten descriptive with it and he won't either.

 

A story can be interesting without the sex and I can agree, it can help a story sometimes. Or it can detract from it.

 

And I've said this before. If I want something with explicit sex in it, I'll go to Nifty.

 

.......True, the reader will seek what they want from a story. To have sex eluded to in a story enough for me, I prefer a strong storyline with a plot.

[LongGone]

This has to be one of the most pretentious posts I have come across in a long time.

 

You write only "literature", do you?

 

A "quality reader" is one who likes the way you handle sex scenes?

 

That's all so marvelous! I'm sure you'll be a hosted author any day now.

I don't think I write literature. But I certainly don't write porn and that's what a lot of readers want. I have character development, plot, researched details. I tell a story wherein the characters sexual orientation is not the primary reason the story exists. I have straight, gay, and even bisexual characters but that is rarely mentioned. Believe me, I can write porn. I just don't choose to post it for public consumption.

 

By "Quality Reader" I mean those that don't write me and whine about the sex scenes and how they want to hear about dick size and read about hot steamy cum scenes. I don't care if it sounds pretentious -- hell, maybe you're right -- but if you're reading to get off, my stories are not the destination you should select. And based on some of my past experiences, that's what a lot of people want.

 

And as it's been pointed out I am hosted on three sites (AwesomeDude,CodeysWorld, and Dabeagle) so my work speaks for itself.

[C James]

CJ, relax. It's fine. If you need a sex scene, you write a sex scene. And I think the way you get good at writing scenes with sex in them is by....writing scenes with sex in them.

 

I wonder if we all need to liberate our inner sexual writers...

 

I love writing scenes with sexual content. I mean, I like to think I write love scenes rather than sex scenes, and I would deny to the death that I write anything that even faintly could qualify as porn, but really....I LOVE writing love scenes. Right on camera. Yup. Right there. To me, it's such a wonderful, magical, mystical, powerful metaphor.

 

And Connor, you crack me up!!!!

 

Thank you Duncan.

 

This wasn't my first sex scene, I had one or two in a prior novel, and one in a short story, but what stresses me out the most, I think, is making them unique. However, I will say this; the one I've just posted was nowhere near as difficult to write as I'd feared.

I keep remembering the first one I wrote, in a short story (my first story), and how hard that one was, but what I remember best is one particular goof. My editor caught it so it never appeared online, but.. at one point, the protagonist had his left hand in one place, his right hand in another, and his other hand in still another. Three hands. Sad to say, that's not the only time I've had characters with an an excess of hands, lol.

 

Wibby is hosted and he's got some good stories.

 

Oh, and it's not nice to mess with this wiley critter.

 

Fear the raccoons. Always a good rule, IMHO, much like fearing Echindas.

 

On a serious note, my read on WBMS's post was that he is aware that he's trading a larger readership for a select but more enthusiastic subset, and I can't argue with that. Generally speaking, I'm doing the same thing; I could probably have a larger readership if I shifted focus and wrote more in line with "mainstream" gay fiction, but I don't. I'll also say that I think the world of my readers, and if I say good things about their quality, that's meant as a compliment to them, not a slight to others.

 

Getting serious about the initial questions, here's my view:

 

1. There is absolutely nothing wrong with sex scenes when they are appropriate to the story. It then becomes a personal taste thing with the author (and target audience) as to how much is included and how much is left to the readers imagination. Everyone has a different opinion on this, so you'll never satisfy everyone.

 

Taking myself as an example, my number one reader is my wife. She has asked that she not read sex scenes, so I don't write them (though she did give me the option of writing two versions -- one for her to read and one for others). I also happen to share the similar views to CJ and WBMS in that even if I did write a sex scene, I would do so only if I felt is was necessary to the plot (and I seriously considered one for The Price of Friendship if the story had developed in that direction).

 

However, there are many talented authors who include detailed sex scenes in their stories and there's nothing wrong with that. Sex scenes help develop characters, and a good sex scene shows a lot about the participants (eg. the sex scene in Shadowgod's Dreams 'n Clipped Wings). The quantity of sex scenes is up to the author, and that is as it should be. When an author writes, there is almost always a target audience in mind. Sometimes that's people who like reading sex scenes (and let's be honest, there are a lot of people out there who like sex scenes ), and sometimes that target audience is people who don't (like my wife). It's up to the author what they want to do.

 

However, when sex scenes dominate the story, where the plot is more just an artifice for the characters to have sex, then that's pretty much the definition of porn. Now there's nothing wrong with porn, because it certainly is popular, but I think it needs to be separated from the group of stories where the reader is looking for a story. The two have different target audiences (though an individual reader can certainly belong to both groups )

 

2. Is Eric only gay when on Tequila? I think MikeL has answered that one above. Eric has shown affection, etc., to Jansen many times when he's not on Tequila. Sex is only part of the whole relationship, and so I don't see that Eric needs to be on Tequila to be in a relationship with Jansen.

 

My general guideline, for a novel, is to write something I'd like to read. That (and my difficulty in writing them) is the reason I only include sex scenes when strictly needed, because that's my preference as a reader. As a reader, I'll usually skim or skip the sex, especially if it's just "there". That's just my personal taste, no slight intended to those who feel otherwise.

 

I suppose a good analogy here would be cliffhangers. Some writers have them, others don

[AFriendlyFace]

Well, for me sex scenes are...irrelevant I guess you could say. I love reading a good, hot sex scene (of course since "good sex" itself is subjective so too is a "good, hot sex scene"); however, I certainly don't have to have them to enjoy a story. If the author doesn't care to go into detail about it then that's certainly their prerogative and I'm not going to be particularly bothered by it. I would rather the author not write a scene, any type of scene, that he/she is not comfortable with than to force himself/herself to do it and have it come out lousy and thereby taint the story in general.

 

By and large, my attitude toward sex can be summed up quite simply: I think people make way too big a deal about it and fixate on it far too much.

 

This very much goes for people who stray toward the "prudish" side of the spectrum, and people who stray toward the "slutty" side of the spectrum. I think sex is just a part of a relationship and a part of life and I think it should be treated as such without being this massive, scandalous thing that everyone either fixates on or goes red in the face and tries to avoid.

 

 

 

I've written a fair number of sex scenes in my stories and like every scene I write I do so because I think it adds something to the characterization and development of the story. I do like to include scenes that I think are "fun" to read and write, and that would definitely include a lot of non-sexual scenes as well as some sexual ones. I hope that these "fun" scenes (sexual or not) do add something to the story in terms of characterization and development, but I also don't mind if they have a healthy degree of simple, good ol' entertainment value.

 

By and large I'm not really a plot driven author; I'm a character driven author. For me the plot is primarily there to facilitate the development of my characters. I generally tend to think of my stories not so much as being about a series of events so much as being about particular character and/or as a way to explore a particular idea or theme. As such, my main concern is "does this scene help expand on the character, feeling, idea, or tone that I'm trying to convey?"

 

I think a lot of authors write because they feel they have a "story" inside of them that they need to get it, I tend to write because I have an idea I want to express or perhaps a character I want to create and shape. I also admit, that to me writing is very very much about feeling and experience. I write to convey that emotion or idea. I want my readers to think and feel a certain way. I love taking my readers on a journey through happiness, sadness, hilarity, shock, revulsion, excitement, and yes, often through lust and arousal as well.

 

I'll generally start more with my emotional or intellectual objective in mind and then think about how I can shape a plot or scene that will evoke those feelings or ideas. Maybe I want my readers to get a strong sense that these two characters deeply love each other (or perhaps deeply hate each other). Maybe I want my readers to evaluate their position on a certain topic or to question their attitudes and values about something. That tends to be how I think of my stories; the plot is just there to accomplish these other goals.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, my feelings as a reader is very similar to my feelings as a writer. I read to analyze characters, ponders new ideas, take an emotional ride, or evaluate my thoughts and feelings about something. I liked the scene between Eric and Jansen, and I thought that it did convey a lot about them as characters and it was also very enjoyable to read. As such, as a reader, I was completely satisfied with it.

 

 

 

 

Just my thoughts

 

Kevin

Edited June 28, 2009 by AFriendlyFace

[MikeL]

I'm always uneasy when it comes to writing a sex scene, and avoid them when I can. The one in "Passion in the Dark" surely left a lot to be desired in many ways. For one thing, Eric and Jansen's first time was with Eric on Tequila. Jansen pretty much unleashed the beast. There were also plot reasons why I had to show that scene and not just allude to it the way I did to their lovemaking in the shower. You'll see why, but perhaps not for a while.

Having now read Chapter 43, I can see some significance to Eric's inebriation beyond the lovemaking with Jansen. He would not have acted so boldly when he encountered Jerry if he had been sober. The scene between the two lovers in Chapter 42 left a clear indication of Eric's state.

 

Is there significance to the tequila in coming chapters? Well done, goat!

[C James]

Well, for me sex scenes are...irrelevant I guess you could say. I love reading a good, hot sex scene (of course since "good sex" itself is subjective so too is a "good, hot sex scene"); however, I certainly don't have to have them to enjoy a story. If the author doesn't care to go into detail about it then that's certainly their prerogative and I'm not going to be particularly bothered by it. I would rather the author not write a scene, any type of scene, that he/she is not comfortable with than to force himself/herself to do it and have it come out lousy and thereby taint the story in general.

 

By and large, my attitude toward sex can be summed up quite simply: I think people make way too big a deal about it and fixate on it far too much.

 

This very much goes for people who stray toward the "prudish" side of the spectrum, and people who stray toward the "slutty" side of the spectrum. I think sex is just a part of a relationship and a part of life and I think it should be treated as such without being this massive, scandalous thing that everyone either fixates on or goes red in the face and tries to avoid.

 

 

 

I've written a fair number of sex scenes in my stories and like every scene I write I do so because I think it adds something to the characterization and development of the story. I do like to include scenes that I think are "fun" to read and write, and that would definitely include a lot of non-sexual scenes as well as some sexual ones. I hope that these "fun" scenes (sexual or not) do add something to the story in terms of characterization and development, but I also don't mind if they have a healthy degree of simple, good ol' entertainment value.

 

By and large I'm not really a plot driven author; I'm a character driven author. For me the plot is primarily there to facilitate the development of my characters. I generally tend to think of my stories not so much as being about a series of events so much as being about particular character and/or as a way to explore a particular idea or theme. As such, my main concern is "does this scene help expand on the character, feeling, idea, or tone that I'm trying to convey?"

I think a lot of authors write because they feel they have a "story" inside of them that they need to get it, I tend to write because I have an idea I want to express or perhaps a character I want to create and shape. I also admit, that to me writing is very very much about feeling and experience. I write to convey that emotion or idea. I want my readers to think and feel a certain way. I love taking my readers on a journey through happiness, sadness, hilarity, shock, revulsion, excitement, and yes, often through lust and arousal as well.

 

Hi Kevin,

 

That's a great post! I'm more plot-driven, but the bit I highlighted above is one of my mottos; I try to make sure that everything in the story is important to the character, or plot. If not, it is IMHO filler, and I hate filler.

 

I too like incorporating happiness, sadness, hilarity, shock, revulsion, excitement, fear, etc, the gamut of emotions.

 

BTW, I highly recommend Kevin's stories.

 

Having now read Chapter 43, I can see some significance to Eric's inebriation beyond the lovemaking with Jansen. He would not have acted so boldly when he encountered Jerry if he had been sober. The scene between the two lovers in Chapter 42 left a clear indication of Eric's state.

 

Is there significance to the tequila in coming chapters? Well done, goat!

 

Thank you!

 

You're right, the events in this chapter, such as Eric's encounter with Jerry, are part of the significance of the tequila from the last chapter.

 

I'm a bit nervous regarding answering the question you asked. One never knows when the Anti-Spoiler-Echidna might be around.... So, I'll just post the word in the next line, purely at random, having no bearing on future chapters, of course.

Yes.

 

There, now that's not a spoiler, now is it?

[hh5]

ok Eric had a nice bite on two guys - which one tasted better???

I bet the one that ate breakfast!!

 

Yup - the next chapter is getting very CLUMPY !!!