Master and Commander

[Conner]

Poker on the high seas! I loved it!

 

I never would have survived in these times. All that "graciousness" would have done me in. I would have ended up in iron chains in some don's dungeon. Being the son of an Earl, I guess it's second nature for Granger.

 

Granger has again fared well for both country and king. It's actions such as this rescue that stays in people's minds. Makes for great gossip in the royal courts as well. Our Georgie does us proud.

 

No news of Travers. Not surprising really. I am curious though.

 

Granger and Calvert, what a wonderful romance! I just knew they wanted to sail off together and forget about the rest of the world.

[Enric]

.... All that ..... would have done me in. I would have ended up in iron chains in some don's dungeon....

 

 

Mark, could you include a character who ends up bondaged to some dungeon in the benighted Spain ?

 

uups, and if that already is Mr Carmody's fate, I did not intend to snerk....

[Tiger]

do I see some catfights coming up ??

Only if he kills Travers.

 

I thought this was an interesting chapter. One thing that stuck out in my mind was the fact that some of the crew members liked to "augment" their diets with rats. That sounds so disgusting. Why would anyone want to eat a rat? That's sick.

 

Granger got some money. Will he share it, and if so, how much of it? 20,000 pounds had to be worth a lot back then, so I'm sure it'll help him get back what he spent on the estate and what he lost from gambling.

 

It's so cute! Granger and Calvert are meant for each other. Maybe they should travel the entire world together.

[Mark M]

It is awesome that Calvert and Granger are together!!

 

If your Sharpening your Claws...I'm Sharpening my Teeth....(i had a Vampire Picture in my DP from Halloween before!)

 

If Travers Dies i'll be sad. If Granger dies i'll be sad. If Caroline or Calvert die. I wouldn't be to terribly sad. Though iknow Granger would be heart Broken

[Enric]

One thing that stuck out in my mind was the fact that some of the crew members liked to "augment" their diets with rats. That sounds so disgusting. Why would anyone want to eat a rat? That's sick.

 

 

firstly I thought the same.

 

However, soon, in half a minute, i figured another angle: the teenage boys who are by necessity always hungry, are put to eat rat meat, if rats have been caught. They would not like to, but if there are rats caught, it's their fate. And they are angry towards the one who caught the rats.... all this under the condition that someone has told them that they eat rats. If they are not told, ignorance is bliss.

* and that brings us to totally another angle: rat meat is probably not actually given to the boys, but they are successfully teased that their hunger means that the cooks have to put rats to their saucers as augment food, because nothing else is available for such a vast appetite. guess it's some slightly senior staff (Humphreys!!! Winkler!!! and some NCOs) who make that sort of teasing jokes. and because the boys are gullible, they believe it, and are angry towards (and resent) the rat-catcher always when it is known that rats were caught.

 

I would guess that actually, rat meat is put to food for incarcerated persons, and to some cattle fodder... or somewhere... but not to food of officers, even officer-trainees.

 

All that said, ignorance is bliss. In a ship with few resources, everybody would perhaps sometimes get to eat rat meat (among other meat), and usually as long as they do not know it, everything goes passably well. If meat is scarce, and they are a bit hungry, and do much work, I believe the rat meat goes down the throats pretty easily and without any great recognition of what it was. Really, at times, navy are even in a worse food situation - practically NO meat, not even rats....

Edited August 20, 2009 by Enric

[Mark Arbour]

About the rats:

 

First of all, Sharon caught that when editing so she gets to qualify as the first person who was grossed out. Young men weren't forced to eat rats, they opted to eat them because they were hungry. You guys need to ponder for a minute what a primal drive hunger is. Donner party...cannibalism.....it's a tough thing to overcome. There are a bunch of men on these ships, and their standard diet may not sate their hunger. What are they supposed to do? It's not like they can go out into the jungle and kill a beast. They're at sea. Now, you may logically suggest that the sailors simply fish. Ironically, most sailors seemed to have an aversion to eating seafood. So that leaves rats.

[sat8997]

Yay me!!!

[Mark Arbour]

Yay me!!!

 

I say that about you all the time.

[Tiger]

Well, for me, I think I'd have to be at a point where I haven't eaten for days before eating a rat would enter my mind. I also suppose that rats weren't considered as "dirty" as they are now. Of course, we all know now that rats tend to be carriers of disease. Thus, people are less likely to augment their diets with rats.

[Mark Arbour]

Well, for me, I think I'd have to be at a point where I haven't eaten for days before eating a rat would enter my mind. I also suppose that rats weren't considered as "dirty" as they are now. Of course, we all know now that rats tend to be carriers of disease. Thus, people are less likely to augment their diets with rats.

 

Rats carry disease, true, but would eating them be dangerous? Most of the diseases they carry are transmitted by parasites, like lice, through the blood. I don't know, I'm just curious.

[Tiger]

Rats carry disease, true, but would eating them be dangerous? Most of the diseases they carry are transmitted by parasites, like lice, through the blood. I don't know, I'm just curious.

They also carry communicable diseases like rabies, hantavirus, and bubonic plague. There are others though. Here's a link. Some of those diseases are quite scary. If you had any undercooked portion, you could be sentencing yourself to death. Rats aren't exactly known for cleanliness. They are a pest, and pests tend to cause problems. They also attract my least favorite creature of all, the snake.

[Mark Arbour]

They also carry communicable diseases like rabies, hantavirus, and bubonic plague. There are others though. Here's a link. Some of those diseases are quite scary. If you had any undercooked portion, you could be sentencing yourself to death. Rats aren't exactly known for cleanliness. They are a pest, and pests tend to cause problems. They also attract my least favorite creature of all, the snake.

 

I'm right with you not liking snakes.

 

Still, all those diseases are transmitted in ways other than ingestion, no?

[Enric]

About the rats:

 

First of all, Sharon caught that when editing so she gets to qualify as the first person who was grossed out. Young men weren't forced to eat rats, they opted to eat them because they were hungry. You guys need to ponder for a minute what a primal drive hunger is. Donner party...cannibalism.....it's a tough thing to overcome. There are a bunch of men on these ships, and their standard diet may not sate their hunger. What are they supposed to do? It's not like they can go out into the jungle and kill a beast. They're at sea. Now, you may logically suggest that the sailors simply fish. Ironically, most sailors seemed to have an aversion to eating seafood. So that leaves rats.

 

I still think that my reconstruction is better

come on, it is just like boys and young men on a ship: youngest ones (who are gullible) are teased that because of their huge appetite, their meat portion has had to be augmented with ratmeat....

 

as to the choice between rats and seafood: surely, if these boys really have an aversion against fish, they generally would also have an aversion against making private meals out of rats. Seafood may, in such a situation, find its supporters..... rather than hunting and cooking rats.

 

Granger surely is such a nice and generous captain that he has commanded to serve enough good food (from the stores of the ship) even to these boys - so, no need for the boys to prowl in rat hunt of their own, to have enough to eat....

Besides, because they in any case are served food regular food, they are not exactly primally hungry - as in, famine. At the most, the situation is like they were on a diet to lose a bit weight..... They may feel that they would want a bit more, but they are not left totally without, not even much without. So, they are imo not on brink of making gross things (or to eat gross things) because of primal hunger - that's not something which would happen just in order to have a bit more to eat in addition to regular meals.

So, this is how I pondered the 'primal hunger' and the reality on a ship which has regular meals.

 

 

about hunt of rats: the dog, isn't he bringing some of the rats he hunted down, to the staff ?

I thought that ratter dogs are just like hunt dogs generally, they bring their prey to the masters....

If this were a female cat, with kittens, then the kittens get the prey.... but this is a male dog. A different thing in behavior, I believe.

[Mark Arbour]

I still think that my reconstruction is better

come on, it is just like boys and young men on a ship: youngest ones (who are gullible) are teased that because of their huge appetite, their meat portion has had to be augmented with ratmeat....

 

as to the choice between rats and seafood: surely, if these boys really have an aversion against fish, they generally would also have an aversion against making private meals out of rats. Seafood may, in such a situation, find its supporters..... rather than hunting and cooking rats.

 

Granger surely is such a nice and generous captain that he has commanded to serve enough good food (from the stores of the ship) even to these boys - so, no need for the boys to prowl in rat hunt of their own, to have enough to eat....

Besides, because they in any case are served food regular food, they are not exactly primally hungry - as in, famine. At the most, the situation is like they were on a diet to lose a bit weight..... They may feel that they would want a bit more, but they are not left totally without, not even much without. So, they are imo not on brink of making gross things (or to eat gross things) because of primal hunger - that's not something which would happen just in order to have a bit more to eat in addition to regular meals.

So, this is how I pondered the 'primal hunger' and the reality on a ship which has regular meals.

 

 

about hunt of rats: the dog, isn't he bringing some of the rats he hunted down, to the staff ?

I thought that ratter dogs are just like hunt dogs generally, they bring their prey to the masters....

If this were a female cat, with kittens, then the kittens get the prey.... but this is a male dog. A different thing in behavior, I believe.

 

Your story is better, but not accurate. History has it's ugly side.

 

I'm really not sure about the retrieving tendencies of a male dog, but I tend to agree with you that they'd be pretty strong.

[Tiger]

Your story is better, but not accurate. History has it's ugly side.

 

I'm really not sure about the retrieving tendencies of a male dog, but I tend to agree with you that they'd be pretty strong.

I still find it rather disgusting. Still, I guess rats would be nothing when one considers that pieces of dead bodies were proudly displayed all over England as a reminder to citizens not to defy the king.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Tiger

[Enric]

Your story is better, but not accurate. History has it's ugly side.

 

 

Oh, NOW he gets all bothered about historical accuracy..... ) )

 

(* after his those several earlier responses that such details do not really matter...)

 

 

Besides, because history never has said anything whether in Granger's ship Intrepid, young sailors had or had not to eat ratmeat, this really is not a question of accuracy.

About eating ratmeat in ships, the most the history can offer us, is that such either was usual or rare...... but still one ship could have been an exception to that. And history, it really cannot say anything whether a rare or usual thing occurred on a ship (and to a crew) which is (and who are) invented.....such as Granger's crew and Intrepid...

[Tiger]

Besides, because history never has said anything whether in Granger's ship Intrepid, young sailors had or had not to eat ratmeat, this really is not a question of accuracy.

Actually it is a question of accuracy. The story itself is fiction, but the setting should be as historically accurate as possible. If you have any doubt about whether sailors consumed rat meat, look it up. You might also find instances of cannibalism in extreme cases.

 

Edit to add: I did not find anything about rats or cannibalism, but this article is interesting nonetheless. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/life_at_sea_01.shtml

Edited August 21, 2009 by Tiger

[Enric]

Actually it is a question of accuracy. The story itself is fiction, but the setting should be as historically accurate as possible. If you have any doubt about whether sailors consumed rat meat, look it up. You might also find instances of cannibalism in extreme cases.

 

Edit to add: I did not find anything about rats or cannibalism, but this article is interesting nonetheless. http://www.bbc.co.uk...at_sea_01.shtml

 

I thought you had the idea that eating ratmeat is gross....

so, your defense of the need of these to have been dismayed over being obstacled from getting much ratmeat because of a ratter dog, is touching

 

and, this most emphatically is not a question of accuracy. It is not even a question of plausibility.

Namely, whatever were usual in navies of thise days, does not need to hold fully the same as to each ship. Some ships may well have been in an unusual position of being able to feed their people from their stores.

And, although the contrary may be usual, still it is however plausible that these did not yet need to ear ratmeat.

 

So, when you check the meaning of the term 'accuracy', you'll find that you cannot require that accuracy to been something which was merely usual in those days.

[Tiger]

Of course eating rat meat is gross to me, but that doesn't mean that others don't eat them. I'm pretty sure a bum on the street would eat a rat if the opportunity arose, and the bum would be rather idiotic to pass up the opportunity. Whether this applies to people on all ships or not is difficult, because I doubt captains went around logging every instance of midshipmen eating rats.

[KJames]

I thought you had the idea that eating ratmeat is gross....

so, your defense of the need of these to have been dismayed over being obstacled from getting much ratmeat because of a ratter dog, is touching

 

and, this most emphatically is not a question of accuracy. It is not even a question of plausibility.

Namely, whatever were usual in navies of thise days, does not need to hold fully the same as to each ship. Some ships may well have been in an unusual position of being able to feed their people from their stores.

And, although the contrary may be usual, still it is however plausible that these did not yet need to ear ratmeat.

 

So, when you check the meaning of the term 'accuracy', you'll find that you cannot require that accuracy to been something which was merely usual in those days.

 

You guys are confusing me...eating ratmeat is gross, but the French eating snails isn't? At least rat's are meat...and, cooked sufficiently, wouldn't rat's meat be better than anything rotten?

[Tiger]

You guys are confusing me...eating ratmeat is gross, but the French eating snails isn't? At least rat's are meat...and, cooked sufficiently, wouldn't rat's meat be better than anything rotten?

I don't eat snails or rotten meat either. The thought of eating any of it makes me nauseous.

[Enric]

I don't eat snails or rotten meat either. The thought of eating any of it makes me nauseous.

 

1) not all regard ratmeat, snails, or meat of shitfish (or even rotten meat), as repugnant. Those are people who are not usual, but they exist, and they hold such as delicacies. Remember, delicacy.

 

2) some people are starving, and have no alternative (seafood is an alternartive on an ocean ship) despite of ratmeat being repugnant. Remember, starving people.

 

Groups 1) and 2) are such which eat ratmeat.

 

 

however, I am having a difficulty in seeing these midshipmen (or, ship boys) in Georgie's ship as starving. They certainly were served their regular meals. So, since they were not starving, they had not such a primal hunger which would make to do desperate things.... they may desire a bit more to eat, but they are not experiencing any desperacy-making hunger. So, I find the desire for ratmeat somewhat implausible.

To eat something very repugnant, is not somethingwhich would happen just in order to have a bit more to eat in additionto regular meals.

[Mark Arbour]

1) not all regard ratmeat, snails, or meat of shitfish (or even rotten meat), as repugnant. Those are people who are not usual, but they exist, and they hold such as delicacies. Remember, delicacy.

 

2) some people are starving, and have no alternative (seafood is an alternartive on an ocean ship) despite of ratmeat being repugnant. Remember, starving people.

 

Groups 1) and 2) are such which eat ratmeat.

 

 

however, I am having a difficulty in seeing these midshipmen (or, ship boys) in Georgie's ship as starving. They certainly were served their regular meals. So, since they were not starving, they had not such a primal hunger which would make to do desperate things.... they may desire a bit more to eat, but they are not experiencing any desperacy-making hunger. So, I find the desire for ratmeat somewhat implausible.

To eat something very repugnant, is not somethingwhich would happen just in order to have a bit more to eat in additionto regular meals.

book on ships to California where people ate rats

 

CS Forester and Alexander Kent also reference the practice in their novels.

 

I'm too lazy to do more research, but if you find something, let me know

[Enric]

book on ships to California where people ate rats

 

CS Forester and Alexander Kent also reference the practice in their novels.

 

I'm too lazy to do more research, but if you find something, let me know

 

so,

 

1) one of the main reasons was that after some time in sea, the worms have eaten the nutritional value out from the ship's flour, and thusly neither the sea biscuit nor worms themselves, offered nutrition, which in turn left much of the crew really starving

 

2) since they had to eat worms in the flour, the ratmeat was no longer essentially repugnant - at least, not more repugnant than the worm-lived flour and the worms themselves

 

3) seafood was desired in those conditions, and seemingly eaten with more acceptance and desire than possibly rats. Rats were eaten if no fish has been caught, right?

 

4) officers ate different stores. Meat, and better overall. I am thinking that midshipmen belonged to the officer corps in a certain way - they had their own gunroom mess, right.

 

My thoughts are that Lennox and Fitzwilliam have not been on sea earlier. This is their first voyage. and began only some week or so earlier. Surely the ship's stores were not yet eaten out of nutritional value by worms, right ?

and they had simply not had earlier voyages, when to develop a ratmeat eating habit.

And they were belonging to the class of officers.

They as persons happen to be from wealthy families - they would have had some food of their own, would they not?

 

For these reasons, I find it somewhat a dilemma (and possibly implausible) that the simple seamen (adults...) were liking the dog, and giving to it snacks... instead of those seamen resenting the dog as it devoured the rats, which seamen would have wanted to have as their food.

 

and the same builds another implausibility that in such a situation, the young and wealthy midshipmen were in need of ratmeat, and that precisely them (somewhat opposed to simple seamen) were dismayed by the dog....

[Conner]

I'm quite unsure that this discussion of rat meat is of any value to the readers. I, for one, would like to move on.

 

I have no doubt that rats have been served up as food for centuries. I have no doubt that rats continue to be a source of sustenance for many humans. Eating rats has got hunger all beat to hell.

 

So, unless we're all prepared to start exchanging rat recipies. let us please discuss more interesting aspects of this story.

 

Mark, I know and understand that you are a strong supporter of free speech. If someone wants to talk about eating rat meat, you will not prevent them from doing so. I'm begging you, enough of rats. It has no conclusion that hasn't already been presented.

 

All I can say at this point is, "Rats!"