paya Posted January 26, 2010 Posted January 26, 2010 (edited) You know, Paya should be here, figuring this whole thing out. Where's he at? Paya is busy, busy, busy It's really annoying. And even if this Thursday one thing ends, next week another one begins. No time to relax! Well it's difficult to guess anything after one chapter. Someone has already mentioned things that would remind people of 1960s, I thought that's the mechanism how it's going to work... Or is it other way? We've had so many hidden children already that it's not original anymore! And if the chapter 4 from CAP really was a clue, then I haven't found anything - we already know how Maman rides horses with Andre "flushed from their ride" LOL! So maybe Tonto knew? (André didn't want to go there...) Maybe she rode him too? Were they two together, Tonto and Maman? But oh my... how I missed Tonto's harsh comments! Negro lover! And the remark about JP wanting a Ford car (like a true Hendrickson ) was just too much! a nice touch And Frank Hayes! and wasn't that the same Vivian Jeff was "dating"? But I'm not sure about the name... Anyway! Reading chapter 4 again was a really good idea. I have another question though... what city went as a model for Claremont? I checked Google maps and Claremont, Ohio is some crossroads in the woods... so I'm just curious... edit: ummm I think I overdid the smileys a little bit. Don't mind them! I promise, I'll try to work on that obsession... Edited January 26, 2010 by paya
Hoskins Posted January 26, 2010 Posted January 26, 2010 the big problem, or 'challenge' as some put it, is the existence of a number of nasty deletionists there, who would destroy a wikipedia page if they can vote it to be non-notable topic. they have a number of twisted criteria (and mentally twisted people doing interpretation and application) what is notable. I fear that un-printed publications are too easy targets (usually, printed and published book series can have their articles). because of the mentally twisted nature of that editor community (it's inevitable, I think: who else than unemployable wackos have enough time to live in wikipedia...), wikipedia deletion votes are a test for several things, one of them being the accreditation of notability and prominence it tests. I.e, if an article wins a much-participated vote, its topic is notable and attests to prominence; if it does not win, then that's a nasty thumping of possibly a good thing.... Some of those in-wikipedia-daily-living wackos are in nasty habit of resurrecting their deletion proposal from time to time. This is not against those sane people who usually edit only now and then wikipedia articles. I tried to outline above some features that help to recognize deletionist nutcases there. Well, if Wikipedia is so problematic, why did you bring it up in the first place? Sheesh. And there are private wikis, in which you'd need a username to edit anything. If vandalism is a concern then perhaps a wikipedia article just links to a separate page, i.e. perhaps back here to GA.
Hoskins Posted January 26, 2010 Posted January 26, 2010 (edited) I think you missed the points in my critique. I was not saying that genealogy programs cannot produce a tree. They certainly can, and I say probably in this case the result is not illustrative of the relations at play. Like I said, the programs do things mechanically. These relations here are in part difficult to be put to such mechanism - the mechanical output will not be illustrative. I was not saying that genealogy program is difficulkt to use. actually, a ready genealogy program is easy to use - a trained monkey (that's a joke-like expression) can feed the input to that, since most of what is involved, is simply copying. Yepo, for most, a trained monkey can use the program.... I was not saying that programs do not handle (and preserve) big amounts of data. You write that your large trees are in program. Well, they certainly store big amounts of data. Like I said. One of points is that for a small amount of data, the program would rather be an overkill, and in this case also produces somewhat un-illustrative output. The line I draw is: a program is helpful when there's much more data than a human brain can remember at a time. On the other hand, the program is useless exercise when the amount of data is such that a human brain can remember most or all of it, if having it at display. The latter case, a tailored 'free-hand' drawing would have more potential to be illustrative than a mechanical program making output. Like I said, this genealogy would be best presented as a tailored drawing on simple page. In such, many of the mechanical pitfalls of the program can be avoided, and the presentation put into one page which shows also non-traditional relationships. Okay, so go make some line diagrams. It would be a handy reference. I'd sure appreciate it. But I'm a detail oriented person, and a computer guy. Give me a spreadsheet, I'll give you a chart. Give me a genealogy program, I'll give you a family tree. The line I draw is: a program is helpful when there's much more data than a human brain can remember at a time. On the other hand, the program is useless exercise when the amount of data is such that a human brain can remember most or all of it, if having it at display. I agree with you. There's no point in creating a data warehouse with a SQL back end here. A spreadsheet (as Jeremy as said elsewhere) is probably more than sufficient. It's not my story and they aren't my characters, but I think it would be fun to put together a genealogy for them. So I'm gonna, as time permits. Call it my OCD version of fanfiction or something. It's already been interesting trying to get my genealogy software to understand an illegitimate, adopted child with gay parents and a gay partner. And adopted kids. Edited January 26, 2010 by Hoskins
Mark Arbour Posted January 27, 2010 Author Posted January 27, 2010 Why is Nicholas so interested in the box? Another thing in CAP the new chapter 4 Stephan Tonto oldest son has more of a relationship with JP. A mentor with the young JP and Fred Hayes's oldest son is friends with Stephen. I can't remember this before. I can only guess Stephen and this Hayes were maybe more than friends and the secrets are in that box, letters diaries something maybe returns to Tonto after Stephens death at the end of the war. Just like Andre things were returned to JP. Nicholas would probably be interested in the box for a couple of reasons, but I think for him the primary reason would be greed. What if the Box contains something really valuable? Or a priceless heirloom? He'd want to know if that was the case (hence the cataloging) and he'd want to assert a claim to the degree that he could. Paya is busy, busy, busy It's really annoying. And even if this Thursday one thing ends, next week another one begins. No time to relax! Well it's difficult to guess anything after one chapter. Someone has already mentioned things that would remind people of 1960s, I thought that's the mechanism how it's going to work... Or is it other way? We've had so many hidden children already that it's not original anymore! And if the chapter 4 from CAP really was a clue, then I haven't found anything - we already know how Maman rides horses with Andre "flushed from their ride" LOL! So maybe Tonto knew? (Andr
Hoskins Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 (edited) ZANESVILLE?? Haha that's awesome. That's Licking County country there, bucko, where the Y bridge sets where the Licking River meets the Muskingum. You've got to go left or right when you get to the middle of that bridge, no going up the middle or you'll be good and wet! Course, you can stay on one side of the river and still cross the Y bridge, that's something no one cares about. Zanesville is the seat of Licking County, I got me some good old country relations down by Licking View, little west of town a bit. ::spits:: ::shuffles off:: Edited January 27, 2010 by Hoskins
Mark Arbour Posted January 27, 2010 Author Posted January 27, 2010 Okay, so go make some line diagrams. It would be a handy reference. I'd sure appreciate it. But I'm a detail oriented person, and a computer guy. Give me a spreadsheet, I'll give you a chart. Give me a genealogy program, I'll give you a family tree. I agree with you. There's no point in creating a data warehouse with a SQL back end here. A spreadsheet (as Jeremy as said elsewhere) is probably more than sufficient. It's not my story and they aren't my characters, but I think it would be fun to put together a genealogy for them. So I'm gonna, as time permits. Call it my OCD version of fanfiction or something. It's already been interesting trying to get my genealogy software to understand an illegitimate, adopted child with gay parents and a gay partner. And adopted kids. This language you speak is so different and foreign to me. Hoskins, I think it would be cool as shit if you did that. I appreciate your efforts. I just wish I had some of Stef's money to pour over your head.
Mark Arbour Posted January 27, 2010 Author Posted January 27, 2010 ZANESVILLE?? Haha that's awesome. That's Licking County country there, bucko, where the Y bridge sets where the Licking River meets the Muskingum. You've got to go left or right when you get to the middle of that bridge, no going up the middle or you'll be good and wet! Course, you can stay on one side of the river and still cross the Y bridge, that's something no one cares about. Zanesville is the seat of Licking County, I got me some good old country relations down by Licking View, little west of town a bit. ::spits:: ::shuffles off:: Yeah, but for the story we'll just rename it "Rimming County."
Enric Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 Well, if Wikipedia is so problematic, why did you bring it up in the first place? Sheesh. And there are private wikis, in which you'd need a username to edit anything. If vandalism is a concern then perhaps a wikipedia article just links to a separate page, i.e. perhaps back here to GA. the deletionist problem is a different problem than vandalism. I was not speaking about vandals. Their doings are easy to correct in wikipedia. IF a topic is prominent and notable enough, THEN a wikipedia article is a relatively safe place. The deletionist problem is a grave problem for articles (and the usefulness of making any work for such an article) whose notability may be controversial.
Enric Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 If not Bill who? Tonto is born in 1903. Jack Crampton's sister. My guess this happen in the 20's or during WW2. Its got to be somebody who changes the relationships in the family. The six of them are there for a purpose. Only three great famiies. My second guess would be odd one of the Hayes? I can't see Tonto and Fred Hayes with Jeff or Frank as the son. To weird for words. Why is Mark reviesing CAP? plant more clues? Who are the master of mystery Mark. It should be unlikely that each extramarital affair produced a kid. So, I look forward to seeing that Tonto just had a lover for a while, but her kids were her husband's. However, if the 'everybody needs to be a secret bastard' option again occurs here, then the likelihood is that Tonto's extramarital kid was raised as son of her and her Schluter husband. That was the more usual solution, rather than hiding a pregnancy and giving the kid to adoption. And Tonto did not strike me as a woman who would consent to give up her kid - rather, if the Schluter guy was unreasonable about it, Tonto would have divorced. So, if there's an illegitimate kid of Tonto, it's bound to be her younger son, William Schluter, the father of Nick and the late bitchy. And the technical father of Brad. Did William resemble someone else than Barry Schluter? What does it change? that the late William (son of Tonto anyway) would not have been biological son of the late Barry? I think such would just be an old history, rather than anything to impact the year 1999. Just a historical scandal. JJ, Darius and Brad would not give a hoot.... And Stef would be the only surviving biological grandkid of Barry Schluter. Nick, if conservative, would of course be embarrassed. His biological grandfather would not have been judge Barry Schluter but some lover of Gail nee Crampton. Still, his father was the naval officer William Schluter. And Nick's career would not depend on who his real grandfather was, right? All this could simply be an academic exercise, because I think it's not too likely that everybody ends up as bastards. actually, I'd be more curious about if Brad's real father's family would in some way enter some story....
methodwriter85 Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 (edited) It's already been interesting trying to get my genealogy software to understand an illegitimate, adopted child with gay parents and a gay partner. And adopted kids I realized that the only "traditional" nuclear family in CAP are the Hobarts, and the Clerraults. Jack and Claire Hobart had their two biological kids, Marie and John, in 1986 and 1987, respectively. Ace and Cass Clerrault had their only child, Courtney, in 1995. Every other family branch is completely rife with same-sex partners, illegitmate children resulting from affairs, and adoptions. Edited January 27, 2010 by methodwriter85
Tonybologna Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 It's not my story and they aren't my characters, but I think it would be fun to put together a genealogy for them. So I'm gonna, as time permits. Call it my OCD version of fanfiction or something. It's already been interesting trying to get my genealogy software to understand an illegitimate, adopted child with gay parents and a gay partner. And adopted kids. Take as much time as you want. I'm obsessed with genealogy, too. Sometimes, it just helps for me to see the characters visually, at least the family groups. I know most of the characters. However, sometimes when I'm reading a different story and am really into it, a reference to another character can throw me off guard, to no fault of Mark's of course. He is just telling the story. Forgive me, too. I'm just learning how to post on this website, and I don't know how to multiquote yet. Someone earlier made a reference to Jason. He is my favorite character, minus the rape and torture of Stephan of course. It's nostalgia back to when I was an undergrad and had sex with my TA. It was so hot! I'm really off topic, but my favorite sex scene was when he and JP made love in the mental institute. I could read and reread that scene so many times. To quote "Heathers", it was "shower-nozzle-masturbation-material for weeks!!" 1
KJames Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 Okay, so go make some line diagrams. It would be a handy reference. I'd sure appreciate it. But I'm a detail oriented person, and a computer guy. Give me a spreadsheet, I'll give you a chart. Give me a genealogy program, I'll give you a family tree. I agree with you. There's no point in creating a data warehouse with a SQL back end here. A spreadsheet (as Jeremy as said elsewhere) is probably more than sufficient. It's not my story and they aren't my characters, but I think it would be fun to put together a genealogy for them. So I'm gonna, as time permits. Call it my OCD version of fanfiction or something. It's already been interesting trying to get my genealogy software to understand an illegitimate, adopted child with gay parents and a gay partner. And adopted kids. Hoskins, unless you already have one, try GenoPro for the graphic representations of the family tree...it's used by mental health professionals to chart family relationships, so the geneology party is very nicely done.
rjo Posted January 28, 2010 Posted January 28, 2010 My guess is the following: Tonto had an affair with of all people Fred Hayes. Maybe he was not that bad back then. Young handsome not a wife beeter. They had a son, which became the oldest Hayes brother, Jeff and Franks older brother. This person did not know who his mother was. He falls in love with Steven Tonto oldest son and both are killed in the war. That is why Tonto said the box could never be opened. That could have destroyed all three families in this small town in the late thirties and early forties.
Hermetically Sealed Posted January 28, 2010 Posted January 28, 2010 Iono, I'm wondering if Tonto's secret doesn't have something to do with all the work she did for civil rights. Maybe even something to do with Sammy and his family. Probably wrong, but seems to be a thought.
Enric Posted January 28, 2010 Posted January 28, 2010 My guess is the following: Tonto had an affair with of all people Fred Hayes. Maybe he was not that bad back then. Young handsome not a wife beeter. They had a son, which became the oldest Hayes brother, Jeff and Franks older brother. This person did not know who his mother was. He falls in love with Steven Tonto oldest son and both are killed in the war. That is why Tonto said the box could never be opened. That could have destroyed all three families in this small town in the late thirties and early forties. except, when a married woman has a child to her lover (and not the husband), the plausible way is NOT to have the biological father raise the kid. Besides, how was the pregnancy kept secret. I think that all those who attempt to concoct a solution where one of hayes brothers is Tonto's beget, are way off the mark. Due to plausibility/ reality. Equality between genders is not yet, and certainly was not in the 1930s, that far as the father would be the one to be pregnant. There's a certain natural fact that it's women who are pregnant.
Mark Arbour Posted January 28, 2010 Author Posted January 28, 2010 There's a certain natural fact that it's women who are pregnant. What's a gay boy like you doing talking about women and pregnancy?
Mark Arbour Posted January 28, 2010 Author Posted January 28, 2010 Chapter 2 is scheduled to post tomorrow night.
rjo Posted January 28, 2010 Posted January 28, 2010 If the oldest Hayes son is Tonto's. She could have had the child out of town. Remember th e Hayes family all look a like Jeff Robbie Billy She could not have raised him everyone would have known. Barry and Tonto were at the top of social ladder. How did Tonto treat the Hayes family? Jeff and later Robbie? AS for Steven and the hayes son they meet in school or at the festival. They were in a small town in the 1920's Those victorian rules were still in place. Fred Hayes could have adopted him no one would have cared. A poor white family from the wrong side of town, Fred became a bitter man because he loved a women he could not have. Maybe he just married someone to give the son awn together. Only two people knew the truth Fred and Tonto. My cousin did the same thing in the 70's. It was maybe Tonto's first child and a lot of children were lost in child birth even in weathy families.
Tonybologna Posted January 28, 2010 Posted January 28, 2010 I was hoping for some reason that maybe Tonto had a lesbian affair. I thought about Sammy's mom as potential, but then remembered how she was toward JP before she warmed up to him. I miss Sammy btw. 1
alphadog415 Posted January 28, 2010 Posted January 28, 2010 Mark - I was just checking on the next instalment of Mr Granger and noticed the new heading under CAP. I am quite surprised! Figured we'd not get anything til Feb. You little writing ho! Or is it you just can't live without our posts? Chapter One is good. You've got all the favorites on one plane. Nick is such a meddler. You do a good job (unfortunately) depicting the frayed, insecure, needy personality of a child of a self absorbed, bitter, insecure and guilty + angry parent, unable to move beyond her obsession. Nick is one of those guys always fluttering around the real politicians wanting to be just like them, but unable to grasp the fact that their toadiness and crass demands for attention make them impossible to be around. He still might make it to the Ohio Assembly, but never AG. Damn! What could be in the box? Well established families frequently have the best closets! I get the feeling this will be a short book. Significant in opening up more avenues of exploration (don't go Robert Jordan on us) but not too long itself. Chapter 2 will have to wait til tomorrow. Dave
histu45 Posted January 29, 2010 Posted January 29, 2010 Awesome Chapter 2! I was so hoping that we would find out something juicy about Stef's family, but you just had to put it off for one more chapter. And now, not only do we have some mystery to solve about Steven, but you also added Caleb to the mix. I'm a huge fan of CAP. Keep it up Mark! 1
Mark Arbour Posted January 29, 2010 Author Posted January 29, 2010 Awesome Chapter 2! I was so hoping that we would find out something juicy about Stef's family, but you just had to put it off for one more chapter. And now, not only do we have some mystery to solve about Steven, but you also added Caleb to the mix. I'm a huge fan of CAP. Keep it up Mark! Why thank you! And thanks for your cherry (got your first post).
Enric Posted January 29, 2010 Posted January 29, 2010 (edited) ch2: Caleb cannot be gay ---- there's of course some secret in the late Steven's life. But he has been dead over 50 years, so it's family history but imo not a scandal.... besides, next to everybody has secrets. because Steven sired a son, he cannot have been gay.... I think. oh well. his diary surely will reveal some secret of his..... and - Tonto's secret. probably nothing to do with having extra-marital child. perhaps just identification of a lover of hers at a time when Steven was teenager or so. probably it will come also from the diary. funny to think if great-uncle Jacob's bible actually has some secret stashed in.... some writing at some spot. I know of ancient bibles of families - there are some sorts of notes and perhaps even annotations written..... Many old bibles from families have had written notes about the family tree of the owner's family. Even such details which are not preserved in any other available documentation. Jacob himself, was he Barry's brother - or Barry's uncle ? Barry and any siblings of his would have been born around 1900. And a personal bible for one of them, could be printed in -eg- 1915. Whereas Barry's some uncle (born around 1870) would possibly have obtained a bible printed in 1900 or tad earlier. Perhaps Mark will one day tell us the tale of Jacob.... what if he was a bachelor gay..... Edited January 29, 2010 by Enric
Conner Posted January 29, 2010 Posted January 29, 2010 A lot of great humour in chap 2. Especially the back and forth betwen Stef and JP on getting out of Claremont. Claremont has definitely become a place to leave. Looking forward to seeing how Caleb will fit in. If Caleb's gay, I have no trouble with that. Now, the question is will we actually learn of these secrets in the next chapter? It could make for a whole bunch of cliffhangers. Great work, Mark!
Ivy Posted January 29, 2010 Posted January 29, 2010 I agree with Conner, a lot of great humorous moments. I loved Bloodlines, but Box has really started out well. Mark, you're on a roll. Will we see chapters of flashbacks of Steven's life? or Tonto's? That would be cool and right up your historical alley. Looking forward to ch 3!
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