Again another Hijacking by Somali with children

[Author: hh5 261]

Again another Hijacking by Somali

 

children-among-hostages-in-boat-hijacking-incident-on-indian-ocean-ahn-all-headline-news

 

Yachting Monthly Danish children among hostages in boat hijacking incident on Indian Ocean AHN | All Headline News Somali pirates have hijacked a sailing boat with 7 people, including three Danish children along with their parents and two crewmen, aboard. Denmark's Foreign Ministry on Monday confirmed the hijacking incident and said that the children, … Pirates Hijack Vessel Carrying 7 Danes, Including 3 Children New York Times Report: Danish sailboat with 7 aboard hijacked in Indian Ocean, heading toward … The Canadian Press Somali pirates seize Danish sailboat with children aboard Pete Thomas Outdoor The Press Association

[Author: C James 8,599]

HH5, THANK YOU for finding and posting this.

 

I hope those kids, and the rest of the captives, survive, and the pirates don't execute them.

 

Speaking of hostages... I wonder how long it will be before the press figures out the fact that a sizable percentage of the 700+ hostages in Somalia are no long breathing? Basically, the pirates don't keep them around too long if they can't get money for them. Estimates vary, but it is likely that at least a fifth have been killed.

 

My prediction as to what will be done about this scourge?

 

Absolutely nothing. I hope I'm wrong.

[Author: Rilbur 592]

Eventually, the blood will run so heavy the bleeding heart liberals will let the military get off their asses and do something.

 

I weep for how long that day will come, all because some idiots think 'violence never solves anything'. We don't have to nuke them 'till they glow; from what I recall, the so-called government there is such a joke we could just station a few destroyers off their coast and simply shut down all their harbors... with maximum prejudice. And if somebody (UN, US, I don't care who) took a 'take a hostage, we shoot you' approach, they'd learn real quick hostage-taking doesn't pay.

[Author: hh5 261]

Eventually, the blood will run so heavy the bleeding heart liberals will let the military get off their asses and do something.

 

I weep for how long that day will come, all because some idiots think 'violence never solves anything'. We don't have to nuke them 'till they glow; from what I recall, the so-called government there is such a joke we could just station a few destroyers off their coast and simply shut down all their harbors... with maximum prejudice. And if somebody (UN, US, I don't care who) took a 'take a hostage, we shoot you' approach, they'd learn real quick hostage-taking doesn't pay.

 

I don't think destroyers would stop them .... like 50 speed armed boats ... would cost much less ... plus a blockade of mines or stuff that would wreck a speed boat like CJ floating tree

... we can use automated air attacks to wreck their supply of weapons, fuel, boats and men ...

most likely ... I think we have to hire mercenaries to do this because its a big issue of fighting them with the same tatics they use

 

The stupid thing is why does it require years to respond to the issue?

[Author: Rilbur 592]

HH5, 'armed speed boats' are exactly what the Somali's are using. While I won't deny that a destroyer is overkill for this type of mission, it's still a very effective type of ship for this type of mission. Frigates might fit better, except the US navy has been phasing them out lately (they're so small they don't have the 'multi-role' capability the Navy wants), leaving destroyers as the smallest, ocean-going vessel available. (Note: they are starting to continue construction of the class, but I don't think they've gotten approval for the funding yet) Their radar has a (very large) reach, letting them keep an eye on hundreds of miles of ocean at a time, while their guns can destroy entire fleets of Somali boats if it comes to that. And if a Somali boat gets too far out of line, while a missile is probably overkill, a destroyer still has plenty of those (and torpedoes) waiting for any real threats.

 

As for using mines to blockade their coast, that's a terrible idea. First, it'd be much more expensive than throwing a couple of carriers at the problem, because the minefield density required would require something like billions of mines -- and then you're a threat to navigation, even if none of the mines manage to drift off position. Not only do you have to produce the mines (expensive, even at a few bucks apiece, because of the scale), then you have to place them, and replace the ones that get used.

 

Using 'the tactics they use' is also a very, very bad idea. We aren't talking about an organized government -- which is, of course, the problem. The problem here is the lack of an organized government in Somalia capable of cutting the pirates off at the source. Killing the pirates who poke their noses into the water is a band-aid; the real solution is putting a real government in place. But that's just flat not going to happen, so the best bet is just a few destroyers shutting down their harbors, backed up by some ground troops to go in after the ones that slip out anyway.

 

Edit: I've been doing some reading on the new Independence and Freedom class frigates, now that the conversation has come up, and they would probably be a good fit for this mission, properly equipped. But there aren't enough of them in service at this time to really count.

Edited March 3, 2011 by Rilbur

[Red_A 81]

This illustrates best, the adage, Know your enemy.

 

Somalia was formed out of British Somaliland in the north west, Puntland in the north east, and centraland south Somalia. In 1990 and 1991,there was a general revolt in the south and central Somalia against the ?corrupt?government. This resulted in chaos with local warlords causing western intervention. A lot of USA troops invaded, but only caused more chaos and the world discovered how powerful Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPG) are in destroying western armies.

 

At this time,Somaliland in the north west broke away from the rest of Somalia and has been a relative stable independant country but not in name. This remains true today. The rest of Somalia, and particular Puntland had very weak government. This resulted in the overfishing of Somalia waters by foreign vessels.

 

In 2000 the southand part of central Somalia was taken over but the strict muslin organisation, which provided good government and law. This brought calm to the south but not Puntland and some parts ofcentral Somalia.

 

In 2005 Ethiopia(Christian) and heredity enemy, with the backing of USA invaded. Currently they only hold part of the capital,leaving the country side in the muslin organisation hands. The net effect that we are interested in, is that there is no overall control of the non-Somaliland Somalia and in particular Puntland.

 

Fisherman in Puntland,who could not fish, started to do opportunity piracy in 2005/2006. Since there are only 5 or 6 ports in Somalia,and only one in Puntland( I believe this is only suitable for less than 150long less than 10 feet deep vessels)(small trawlers), the pirates operate off open beaches. There is about 800 milesof beaches involved. The so called port of Eyl(centre of Piracy) is a open beach, whose only advantage is a single road and 100 shacks.

 

The initial piracy involved the use of open 20 to 30 foot glass fibre with big outboards whichcould do 25 knots. These would go out inpairs or threes and go alongside ships going at less than 18 knots, and climb aboard. For longer ventures, there was probably a third or fourth boat which was bigger and carried the fuel but never took part in actual piracy. The profit came from ships (2million + dollars per), and yachts were only involved when ships were not available.

 

In 2008/2009 theproblem became so big that Western countries got involved. They introduced defined traffic lanes, unescortedconvoys and strict tracking of ships, and thus easier tracking of SuspectVessels. This was enforced by western navy ships, and helicopters. In additionships are now defended by electric military style barbed(razor) wire, water canon and other non-lethal? devices In the 1million square miles involved This was successful in that Piracy in the limited area of the traffic lanes(10000sq.Miles) piracy was reduced drastically.

 

However, the piracy area has been extended to 3million square miles. Attempts have been made with 40 miles of the India Coast and as far as the south of Madagascar. Piracy is now organised by businessmen who remain ashore and recruit young unskilled men who are high on KHAT. Khat is a mild drug which enables man to operate will no food and no sleep, but leaves a highly nervous unstable person. These are now sent out in two 20 foot openboats to high jack a oceangoing trawler. This is then used as a mother ship with the two skiffs loaded abroad. This then goes beyond the patrolled traffic lanes, and tries to find a target. If a target is not found there is desperation, and yachts are taken, but yachts are not prime target. It should be pointed out that there is high failure rate and a high proportion of skiffs do not return due to lack of fuel.

 

 

 

So what is the solution? Well the first, is to ban all yachts north of a line from tip of India to south point of Madagascar, although this would ban trips to Seychelles, Maldives and other Islands in the Indian Ocean. Other than that, I can only tell you what will not work?

 

Invade Somalia, this has been tried before twice. It would involve a lot of invading army causalities, as your enemy would be drug induced devil may care people. You would also have to control 800 by 300 miles of country(Puntland) for a long time. A pirate group is about 20, that is easy to hide.

 

Flood the sea with war ships, no that 3 million divided 2500(indivual ship patrol area)

 

Flood the Somalia coastwith ships, 40 ships required for 800miles.

 

Blast the ports tohell, what ports?

 

Remember, your target is at most 50 piracy groups of 20 people each, and probably much less. Also they can easily be replaced

 

Useful links Horn of africa eu navy especial best practice issue 3

 

Live Piracy map

 

 

bbc article

[Author: jamessavik 11,472]

This is why you immediately execute pirates once they are caught. It was the policy of every navy up until the thirties.

 

Make the risk not worth the reward.

 

BTW- a federal judge released some pirates last year because the navy didn't read them their rights.

[Author: C James 8,599]

I've always tended to gravitate towards logistics when it comes to military strategy: in most cases, logistics proves to be the key. In this case, I think it's helpful to look at the logistical situation of the pirates as a first step.

 

They primarily attack in small fast skiffs (inflatables or rigids). These lack range. They have to operate from a "mothership" for anything far from the coast (say, 50 miles).

 

The pirates generally have armed men in their bases, and those bases are most often in port cities (or near beaches and estuaries they use). In many cases, the pirate band (and it's shore-based extensions) are the de-facto local government. Large sections of Somalia are chaotic, ruled by local warlords.

 

Money: that's the driving force. They do this for money, and are reaping millions.

 

Ports: Somalia has only a few ports, and no shipbuilding capacity. Further, only some of the Somali coast is a problem, mainly the Puntaland region and a couple of other, far smaller locations.

 

The pirates operate so far from their own waters because they have to; ships either avoid coming close to Somalia, or are part of protected convoys.

 

The pirates are totally dependent in Western rules of engagement. They felt safe enough under the guns of a US destroyer (backed up by a carrier battle group!) to execute four Americans, right under the Navy's nose. A great many pirates have been caught and released. In brief, the pirates exist due to exploiting OUR rules. It's rather easy to win a game when only one side has to follow rules.

 

 

 

 

The causes of piracy... money; making piracy less profitable should therefor help.

The idea that it's "fishing rights", BTW, doesn't pass the smell test: Just how many foreign trawlers are hanging out in Somali waters, making themselves big stationary targets, since the piracy issue became severe? So, those fishing grounds have had years to recover. However, one way this issue can be exploited; have the Western Navies declare those Somali waters a no-fishing zone, no exceptions for anyone, and that Somalis can resume fishing once piracy ends. That would cut down on ship traffic, provide incentive, and also allow the grounds to recover while taking away one of the pirate's favorite excuses.

 

They also work with both drug and illegal immigrant smugglers. In some cases, the pirates are actively involved in these and other illegal trades.

 

 

 

 

There's no one answer to piracy; no one thing will end this. All too often, politicians aren't capable of thinking macrodynamically, so they look for one simple thing. Of course, in this case, there aren't any.

 

Invasion by the US and/or Western allies? It would be a bloody mess (Protracted insurgent war), and entail trying to rebuild Somalia. It likely wouldn't work for long, and it's also not needed.

 

My opinion? A multifaceted approach, with an asymmetric slant.

 

#1: End Somalia's ocean-going capacity. They have few ports (and only a few of those would need to be dealt with, for some aren't involved in piracy), and ports are where you'll find the large trawlers or other ocean going motherships. This can be done very economically with mines; we only need to mine the ports, not the whole coast. Once Somalia's (or, more exactly, the areas of it engaging in piracy) ocean-going capacity is gone (or rendered unable to put to sea) it would largely (but not entirely) end the menace except close to shore. Modern sea mines (some varients) and be activated and deactivated selectively and remotely, so this would give an option regarding the specific ports; they could have access to the sea again if, and only if, the get rid of the pirates in their midst and take active measures to ensure pirates can't use their port. Basically, this is taking a page from the Barbary Wars, where treaties were negotiated (usually after a naval bombardment) with the cities that sheltered the pirates.

 

#2: Stop encouraging them by letting them use our own rules against us. If we had one wit of sense, the naval forces that responded with an assault when the hostages were executed (we didn't know they were dead) would have just taken the bodies and left the pirates on the boat, and then the destroyer could have had some target practice with its Phalanx CIWS system (essentially a very high speed 20mm machine gun). The fact that the pirates felt safe enough to execute Americans right under the nose of an American warship is proof enough; level the playing field, and stop giving the pirates advantages.

 

In addition to the above, mix it up a bit by going after any and all targets of opportunity; a pirate base, a pirate controlled ares, a pirate mothership, etc, should be a target at any time, not just when caught in the act.

 

The pirates often use smaller boats from beaches, (the one Red mentions is a major center) to take close in targets (few, these days) or ships to use as motherships. These beaches are often known, and can be seeded from the air with area-denial mines. Also, the skiffs themselves can be destroyed from the air (those that we can find, at any rate...).

 

Hostages: we don't know how many of the 700+ they hold are still alive. They would likely try to use them as bargaining chips against any effective action. Issue notice that any executions of hostages will result in heavy relation against any and all involved parties and any of their supporters. That won't save them all, but it would save some. Many would likely be killed, but... this must be cold-bloodedly balanced against the near certainty of a higher death toll if piracy is allowed to go on.

 

It's also well worth noting that the pirates have been far more respectful of Russian shipping lately. Why? Because the Russians, on at least one occasion, did their own version of catch-and-release. Only, they did it 110 miles from land, and those eleven pirates won't be troubling anyone ever again. I also admire the Russian sense of humor when commenting on the incident.

 

Blockade: No Somali ships, of any size whatsoever, from pirate areas go to sea. Easier than it sounds; we don't need to blockade all of Somalia, just the regions engaging in piracy. Can this stop them all? Nope... but we'd stop some.

 

Interdiction; make an effort to keep all maritime supplies (parts, engines, etc) out of Somali hands. Also make an effort to make piracy less profitable; take more risks with rescue opps and try to avoid paying any ransoms.

 

Finally, allow ships that wish to do so to arm themselves. Currently, there are atrocious legal issues regarding carrying firearms on a ship. Even cruise ships most often resort to "non-lethal defense" such as sound weapons, thereby putting countless lives at risk. Non-lethals have their role, but IMHO should be used in combination with lethals. A few decent rifles (with competent shooters) would make an very workable defense: the pirates attack in skiffs, where there is no cover for them or their engines. Get the enough of the pirate and/or the engine, and you end the threat. (This is a case of deploying inferior firepower that, due to the inherent tactical situation, give the defender the advantage due to range; a rife outranges an AK47 or an RPG, and anyone on a ship, even a yacht, has inherently better cover available than a light skiff does. Given a choice, I'd much rather be alone on a slow yacht with a scoped 30-06 (with a starlight scope available, in case it's a night attack...) than part on at attacking party in a skiff with an AK-47 or RPG! This kind of range effect can create a tactical draw, and in the case of a tactical draw, the defender wins. The pirates have to close and board; the target only needs to keep them away.) It's also worth noting that letting the pirates get close, even if you prevent them from boarding, risks the lives of all aboard; they've even fired RPG's into cruise ships before. Letting them in close takes away the biggest tactical asset the defending vessel has.

 

Caveat: yes, I know an RPG 7 (the most common variant in use there) can fire at over a thousand yards, but at that range they are incredibly inaccurate. A seated trained gunner on LAND has great difficulty at ranges exceeding about 150 yards, and in a skiff on the sea, they are largely useless at any significant range.

 

The idea of ceding most of the Indian ocean to a bunch of drug-addled cuthroads in skiffs is one I find untenable.

 

Look at the live piracy link Red posted (Thanks Red!): those attacks are all just this year; two months. This needs to be stopped, and a variety of things can be tried. (and like anything else, if one thing doesn't work, try something else). Like it or not, this is a war and needs to be thought of as such.

 

Interdiction; make an effort to keep all maritime supplies (parts, engines, etc) out of Somali hands. Also make an effort to make piracy less profitable; take more risks with rescue opps and try to avoid paying any ransoms.

 

Anyway, that's my take on it... and would this end piracy? Nope... probably not, but it would reduce it. It is helpful to look at the Barbary Wars of North Africa and the "Golden age of piracy" in the Caribbean for insight into what worked in those times, and what lessons can be learned. One big one: immediate execution of pirates has a salutary effect (And if nothing else, it does wonders for reducing the recidivism rate). Another is that the key in many past pirate outbreaks is attrition; keep working the problem, taking out as many pirates as possible.

 

My prediction is that nothing meaningful will be done until things are far worse (Say, after a bloodbath or two, like the sinking of a cruise ship with massive death toll, or the deaths of hundreds more hostages), and then the death toll on both sides will be far, far higher. I hope I'm wrong.

 

Edit to add: I'm no expert, so I may well have things above wrong.

Edited March 3, 2011 by C James
C James is a blowhard

[Author: hh5 261]

HH5, 'armed speed boats' are exactly what the Somali's are using. While I won't deny that a destroyer is overkill for this type of mission, it's still a very effective type of ship for this type of mission. Frigates might fit better, except the US navy has been phasing them out lately (they're so small they don't have the 'multi-role' capability the Navy wants), leaving destroyers as the smallest, ocean-going vessel available. (Note: they are starting to continue construction of the class, but I don't think they've gotten approval for the funding yet) Their radar has a (very large) reach, letting them keep an eye on hundreds of miles of ocean at a time, while their guns can destroy entire fleets of Somali boats if it comes to that. And if a Somali boat gets too far out of line, while a missile is probably overkill, a destroyer still has plenty of those (and torpedoes) waiting for any real threats.

 

As for using mines to blockade their coast, that's a terrible idea. First, it'd be much more expensive than throwing a couple of carriers at the problem, because the minefield density required would require something like billions of mines -- and then you're a threat to navigation, even if none of the mines manage to drift off position. Not only do you have to produce the mines (expensive, even at a few bucks apiece, because of the scale), then you have to place them, and replace the ones that get used.

 

Using 'the tactics they use' is also a very, very bad idea. We aren't talking about an organized government -- which is, of course, the problem. The problem here is the lack of an organized government in Somalia capable of cutting the pirates off at the source. Killing the pirates who poke their noses into the water is a band-aid; the real solution is putting a real government in place. But that's just flat not going to happen, so the best bet is just a few destroyers shutting down their harbors, backed up by some ground troops to go in after the ones that slip out anyway.

 

Edit: I've been doing some reading on the new Independence and Freedom class frigates, now that the conversation has come up, and they would probably be a good fit for this mission, properly equipped. But there aren't enough of them in service at this time to really count.

 

 

Those ships are just too big to fight highly maneuverable vessels. Shoot a torpedo ... they can easily get out of a way ... shoot a shell ... they still move out of the way

They can just serve as deployment assistance .... in multiple areas

 

Its like having dog fights on water ... you destroy them with similar out fitted vessels ... it guerrilla warfare on water

Big boats are for fighting big boats .... its a laugh for manverable vessels ...

 

Mines don't have to be high tech .... just enough of a field of objects to force them to run into ... disable them ... then perhaps a ship of your choice can pick them up or shoot them out of the water

They have to be easily deployed as well as un-deployed ... so they can be towed to a different area and used on another group of them

Perhaps maybe between two large vessels we can have a special netting that can be use to disable each group of pirates that come between the two ships

A lot easier than mines

 

Your assumption is that they operate out of one place ... they don't ... they operate anywhere ... they can get easily ... resupplied

They are not centralize ... now who do they take their loot and money to? No idea

I suspect they are like own and operated - they will use whatever they can plunder so they can resupply locally or make periodic runs to a war supply depot for rpg or raid local store for ak47 bulletets

 

Red_a has a point that they are so spread out they seem to have many mobile base of operations ... not a centralize operations .... you have to attack them surgically ... group by group

 

The war on pirates is easier to win than the war on terrorism with the right tools, tactics, and train personnel

 

Its also crucial to attack their supply and material lines ... to disband each groups ability to operate

 

It takes a lot of time for a group of big ships to move from place to place ...

But a mobile group can make a difference ... the enemy can see big ships coming and they can move out to another location quickly

 

Another issue is ... are they affiliated with drug cartels, terrorist, etc etc .... also we need to deter them from forming any alliances

 

eventually you will find the queens nest and then take it out but that takes time to locate ... it may not be one queen nest

once you show forces to look for them - they just go hide and relocate their base of operations

 

This is not organize war fare

Blockade and taking over Somali isn't very much of a solution

You might as well take over Africa itself

 

Big boy war toys and military muscle will be a very big debate on the floor of the UN or by any country

Big bills that any govt won't foot the bill - unless more innocent lives are put into the news

This is what the pirates are doing now - getting the world to notice them

 

We lost the Vietnam ... its an unconventional war ... we just pulled out

the war on terrorism is another unconventional war ... its bankrupting our country

Already the terrorist announced they will use other means to win their war

Another level of unconventional battles ... more costly issues

[Author: hh5 261]

Negotiations with bad guys?

There is a bigger chance that they will be killed than to be exchanged

I have no idea what has happen in past cases?

and how will the pirates avoid capture or how they will pick up the ransom?

 

Pirated Danish yacht, family anchor near Somalia (17 hrs ago)

 

NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) — A Danish family kidnapped by pirates has reached the shore of Somalia, officials and a pirate said Wednesday, likely meaning a long hostage ordeal for the couple and their three teenage children who were abducted while yachting around the world.

 

The family has been moved to a larger ship, and none of the hostages has been harmed, a pirate said.

 

Later Wednesday, the Danish government said it had established contact with the pirates and their hostages.

 

"They are doing well under the circumstances," the Foreign Ministry said in a brief statement.

 

It said a professional security firm was handling negotiations with the pirates, declining to give more details, citing concern for the hostages and their relatives. The statement did not mention anything about a ransom.

 

A Somali pirate previously warned that if any attempt was made to rescue them, they would meet the same fate as the four American yachters slain by their pirate captors last week. Any chance of a quick rescue seemed to disappear Wednesday.

 

....

 

Abdirizak Ahmed, who heads the anti-piracy program in Puntland, Somalia's semiautonomous northern region, where most pirates are based, was attending a two-day workshop in Denmark this week on the legal aspects of prosecuting pirates.

 

"On behalf of the Puntland state of Somalia, I want to say that we are very sad about the situation," said Ahmed. "In order to save these people, let us wait. Any action, including military action and we have seen what happened to the American couple a couple of days ago, we don't want that to happen again. ... Let us wait, let us wait, please."

 

 

 

 

 

[Author: Rilbur 592]

BTW- a federal judge released some pirates last year because the navy didn't read them their rights.

 

Please tell me that's a f**king joke. The navy is not, and has never been, a police force, and therefore don't have to worry about Miranda rights. (Human rights are another matter)

 

Those ships are just too big to fight highly maneuverable vessels. Shoot a torpedo ... they can easily get out of a way ... shoot a shell ... they still move out of the way

They can just serve as deployment assistance .... in multiple areas

 

Um, destroyers are exactly what the US Navy would use to fight 'highly maneuverable vessels'. They wouldn't use torpedoes on them, but the 5 inch gun (shells) are essentially designed for exactly that kind of fight. How the hell do you dodge a bullet? Also, a modern destroyer can maintain a speed of '35+ knots' -- I don't know how long they can maintain that speed before they run out of fuel, but that easily matches the specs Red_A gave for the pirates skiffs. Add in armed helicopters off their flight decks, and they can shut down large regions of coastline if they have to.

 

Your assumption is that they operate out of one place ... they don't ... they operate anywhere ... they can get easily ... resupplied

 

No, my assumption was they operated over thousands of miles of coastline. That's why I thought mines wouldn't work. Mining the ports where the resupply vessels are based would be a very smart, economical use of mines, however, and if they don't have the entirety of Somalia to launch from, that makes life even easier.

 

Red_a has a point that they are so spread out they seem to have many mobile base of operations ... not a centralize operations .... you have to attack them surgically ... group by group

 

Which is patently impossible. Too many of them, and more will spring up while you're attacking a given group. Just make the entire business unprofitable instead. Destroy any of them that try to take a ship, and if they do take a ship, kill them. And if they take hostages, 'millions for defense, not one penny in tribute' -- even if you kill all the hostages, they don't make money off them. You don't negotiate. You don't debate. That just opens the road to more deaths.

[Author: hh5 261]

Um, destroyers are exactly what the US Navy would use to fight 'highly maneuverable vessels'. They wouldn't use torpedoes on them, but the 5 inch gun (shells) are essentially designed for exactly that kind of fight. How the hell do you dodge a bullet? Also, a modern destroyer can maintain a speed of '35+ knots' -- I don't know how long they can maintain that speed before they run out of fuel, but that easily matches the specs Red_A gave for the pirates skiffs. Add in armed helicopters off their flight decks, and they can shut down large regions of coastline if they have to.

 

No, my assumption was they operated over thousands of miles of coastline. That's why I thought mines wouldn't work. Mining the ports where the resupply vessels are based would be a very smart, economical use of mines, however, and if they don't have the entirety of Somalia to launch from, that makes life even easier.

 

Which is patently impossible. Too many of them, and more will spring up while you're attacking a given group. Just make the entire business unprofitable instead. Destroy any of them that try to take a ship, and if they do take a ship, kill them. And if they take hostages, 'millions for defense, not one penny in tribute' -- even if you kill all the hostages, they don't make money off them. You don't negotiate. You don't debate. That just opens the road to more deaths.

 

Thanks for the reply, Rilbur

 

Perhaps just destroying the trawlers\pod carrying crafts would do ... and then make the skifts would run out of fuel and ammo and then pick them and make sure they never return. Red_a says their all high on drugs ... the withdrawals would be great punishment them. It will cut down the actual ship to ship fighting. CJames says long distance firing is the advantage of better guns.

 

As Red_A said its run by four warlords ... its also best to take them out ... it must be drugs or something related that keeps them in business. I surprise we're not covertly putting them out of business and may that will stop piracy all together. No one to pay the supplies and amo. Treat them like drug lords.

 

mmm perhaps we should be strongly be helping the govt but not really sujgating them. I bet the somali govt would allow that in trade for food, medical supplies etc for period of time. Perhaps its best to teach somila how to fish rather than take fish. They are having a drought and the poor ppl are suffering. Warlords have plenty of food and water ... but only to enlist those into piracy in order for some poor person to help their family.

 

It be great if they something ... its obvious any countries military can take care of the situation and turn the issue around. But nothing has truely happen in recent six years or perphaps 20 years

 

Below is how bad the political situation is. Pay ransom to free a ship, a court system in somali would tend to be a revoling door. Its not good enough. I don't see any news with the world to be applaud that children are added to the victims list.

 

 

Somali pirates send bank details with deadline to Burney

KARACHI: The Somali pirates, who had hijacked MV Suez, a ship of Red Sea Navigation, with Panama flag in the Gulf of Aden in August 2010, on Wednesday, refused to release only Pakistanis or Indians and gave four days ultimatum for the life of crew members if they didn’t get $2.3 million, the United Nations Expert Adviser on Human Rights, Ansar Burney, who is in touch and negotiating with the pirates in Somalia for the early release of the hostages, said.

 

The bank accounts given to Burney by Somali Pirates are one of ‘Islam Malaysia Berhad Labuan’ Offshore Branch New York, US, and 2nd bank account is of DAYAX Islamic Bank. “It’s a terrible condition in which they are right now. For the last one week, the pirates are torturing them because the owner has refused to pay the ransom. The Pakistani and Indian governments can put pressure to force the owner of the ship to pay ransom, so that the ship can be released. The pirates have stopped the crew’s food and water for the past four to five days,” he said.

 

Ansar Burney said that the condition of the hostages was critical as they had been sailing in the Somali sea for the past nearly eight months. “Earlier, they were being given some boiled rice and fish with sea water by their captors but now they didn’t receive any food or water for the last three days”, he said.

 

On Wednesday, the Somali pirates on telephone informed Ansar Burney that after getting the money they will release all of the crew members or in other case they will kill all of them. ‘And they cannot release Pakistanis or Indians only, all will have to release or to die together.” —PR

 

Pirates Could Soon Face U.S. Military Action

 

The United States may soon respond more aggressively to Somali piracy following a warning to the United Nations Security Council that the pirates are becoming "the masters" of the Indian Ocean.

....

 

He recommended that piracy-focused courts and prisons be established in the breakaway regions of Puntland and Somaliland.

 

A Somali-administered court should also be set up in Arusha during a transitional period prior to being transferred to Mogadishu, Mr Lang added.

 

Tanzanian President Jakaya Kikwete is "open" to this proposal, he said. It would cost about $25 million to establish these courts and prisons, Mr Lang estimated, suggesting that is a small price in comparison to the billions of dollars lost to piracy.

 

Ms Rice said the United States agreed that "targeted co-operation with Somaliland and Puntland [should] be increased." That comment is causing some analysts to speculate that the Obama administration may be moving toward tacit recognition of the two territories as sovereign entities.

[Author: hh5 261]

Interesting from two yrs ago

 

It talks about US-Flagg ship captain being held hostage and the pirates going in safey in numbers when up agains a military vessel.

 

Sorry can paste article - due to websites issues of copyright.

Here's the link

US ship in stand-off with Somali pirates

 

 

 

[Author: Rilbur 592]

The pirates have stopped the crew’s food and water for the past four to five days,” he said.

 

Then the hostages are dead. No water for two days means dead.

 

As Red_A said its run by four warlords ... its also best to take them out ... it must be drugs or something related that keeps them in business.

 

The reason I haven't suggested invading and trying to enforce order is because that just won't work. It would take a full-scale invasion, and then an occupation lasting for years. (Look at Iraq and Iran, please). You can kill the current crop of warlords with assassination, sure, but you need to break the cultural landscape that encourages warlords to exist.

 

It would cost about $25 million to establish these courts and prisons,

 

What prisons? Execution is the only acceptable punishment for piracy.

[Author: hh5 261]

The reason I haven't suggested invading and trying to enforce order is because that just won't work. It would take a full-scale invasion, and then an occupation lasting for years. (Look at Iraq and Iran, please). You can kill the current crop of warlords with assassination, sure, but you need to break the cultural landscape that encourages warlords to exist.

 

I guess there are those who don't want another Iraq ... too costly unless the other countries contribute.

I am not sure if they are as militaristic-ally resistant ... perhaps not ... unless the warlords and sponsors

want to get into a war ... they know that the UN or USA will not do anything ... and they are quite confortable

with the way things are.

 

It is been reported in the news that Somalia doesn't have much of any govt.

To est govt like an Iraq is one thing but there isn't any thing there to sustain a gov't ... no oil fields to support the country economically

You practically have to invade the country with business ... transform the country into supporting a self sustaining govt

but first you have to have the military move in and clear out the warlords.

To do it this way would cut out the big need to police the state very much

hopefully you get them to police against ever having warlords.

 

Another thing is that ... this should not be consider free.

Iraq or Somila or any other country that gets helped to be an independent nation should pay off a debt to the UN or the USA.

I am not sure how much Iraq cost ... but why should 335 million ppl have to foot the bill?

The other 8 billion ppl needs to kick in their share ... well maybe they all didn't like Bush's vendetta.

 

Looks like you can have six places to put mines or station a ship to prevent insecure shipping.

 

Map

 

 

Then the hostages are dead. No water for two days means dead.

 

What prisons? Execution is the only acceptable punishment for piracy.

 

Hehehe, I like to see the news authors like reply to your comments.

You only one or two steps away from being a comedian.

 

-- - - -

 

Danish child hostages moved to ship off Somalia

 

Somali pirates say they have moved a party of Danes including three children from their hijacked yacht to a ship moored off the Somali coast.

 

Spokesmen for the pirates said the seven Danish citizens had been put on a ship where other foreign hostages are already being held.

 

Chasing the Somali piracy money trail

 

Although there is no universal set of rules, a UN report based on information gathered from pirates based in the north-eastern village of Eyl, reveals some interesting information about how the ransom spoils are divided:

 

• Maritime militia, pirates involved in actual hijacking - 30%

 

• Ground militia (armed groups who control the territory where the pirates are based) - 10%

 

• Local community (elders and local officials) - 10%

 

• Financier - 20%

 

• Sponsor - 30%

 

 

'Compensation' scheme

 

Pirates interviewed by the BBC have been reluctant to say exactly how much money they make from a successful hijacking, but reports indicate they make tens of thousands of dollars rather than millions.

 

This is because piracy has developed into a mini-economy, employing hundreds of people in north-eastern and central Somalia, all of whom need their share of the ransom.

[Author: hh5 261]

Article Continued

 

It's likely that the truth about all the money made from piracy will never be uncovered.

 

What is clear is that several elements in Somali society are benefiting, and that piracy will remain an attractive career option as long as the country remains without central authority.

 

But it is wrong to transfer theories about money laundering and international crime onto Somali piracy.

 

The problem is unique, the country is unique, and speculation will lead to misguided policies which are likely to prolong the dangers facing any ship that sails along the long unruly coast of Somalia.

 

 

[Author: C James 8,599]

Interesting link on the financials of piracy.

 

If true, it shows that out of a 4 million ransom, the pirates get over a million.

 

It also shows that they are trading money for influence, and that one of the best tools against piracy it to make it unprofitable, or far less profitable. It also opens the door to information opps; if a 4 million ransom is paid by someone, wait a while and then float stories (via 'leaks')that it was a 7 million ransom. That could trigger violent infighting between the pirates and others who are in for a cut, by making it look like the pirates cheated them (And there have already been battles between pirates groups, and between pirates and militia, etc, so it's already a tinderbox situation). It might not work, but it's basically a zero cost option to try.

 

BTW, a note to everyone on forum decorum. Please feel free to debate the issue, but don't get personal. Well, one caveat: if anyone wants to call me (but no one else, please) an opinionated blowhard, go right ahead, because I call myself that.

[Author: Rilbur 592]

You only one or two steps away from being a comedian.

 

How exactly are those statements comedic? I meant them quite seriously, though someone pointed out that the 2 days without water isn't strictly true -- in extremely hot environments in runs true, but Somalia probably isn't the hottest, dryest environment possible. Despite that, four or five days of no water, with the probable compounding issues of exposure, poor health, and injuries, would still mean almost certain death.

[Author: hh5 261]

How exactly are those statements comedic? I meant them quite seriously, though someone pointed out that the 2 days without water isn't strictly true -- in extremely hot environments in runs true, but Somalia probably isn't the hottest, dryest environment possible. Despite that, four or five days of no water, with the probable compounding issues of exposure, poor health, and injuries, would still mean almost certain death.

 

The victim looking at the pirate "I'm gon gonna die without water?"

The pirate indirectly says (10 sec later in broken english) " your going to die."

Then here comes a news reporter reporting (four hours later)"your going to die.'

Then we have an independent writer writing (two years later) "You're going to die!!!"

How much inventing of comedy do we can get?

 

----

 

Ya its hot enough there anyway ...

but the question be is the prisoner actually exposed to the elements or not or still on the air condition boat?

we don't know ... but whats true by at the end of seven days ... some will smell ripe.

most certain after two years ...

we have proof in 2010 the movie ... after five years

---

 

Yes its really an art form to play straight guys part in a comedy routine

Remember comedy is hard ... shake-spear is easy

[Author: Rilbur 592]

How much inventing of comedy do we can get?

 

Perhaps it would help if you posted dates when you posted a dated (in the sense of being new) news article. I thought this was a recent news piece.

[Author: hh5 261]

Perhaps it would help if you posted dates when you posted a dated (in the sense of being new) news article. I thought this was a recent news piece.

 

I was astonish to find an article that shows the military guy as a prisoner of the pirates.

and then astonish on the date after posting

I figure ppl can always read the article

[Author: Rilbur 592]

I figure ppl can always read the article

 

We can. We don't.

[Author: hh5 261]

The faces behind the story ... the children ... why were they taken ,,, what happen to the adults?

 

Somali-pirates-threaten-kill-family-5-pictured-yachting-holiday

 

 

That route would take the family through the Gulf of Aden, one of the most dangerous waterways in the world in terms of piracy.

 

 

 

'They expected to be home in August,' said Mr Meridin Petersen.

 

The Danish sailboat was seized by pirates in the Indian Ocean last Thursday and it is the first time youngsters have been caught up in the continuing run of high seas hijacks.

 

....

 

'It is almost unbearable to think that there are children involved and I can only sharply denounce the pirates' actions,' she said.