Homosexuality in History

[hh5]

The first gay woman to complete travels to the North and South Pole

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Bancroft

 

Ann Bancroft (born 29 September 1955) is an American author, teacher, and adventurer. She was the first woman to successfully finish a number of arduous expeditions to the Arctic and Antarctic.

[Zolia Lily]

Recently read In Bill Bryson's book "Shakespeare" that Shakespeare may have had a male lover - suggested by the youth addressed in his sonnets

This pleases me to no end!

[Celethiel]

Recently read In Bill Bryson's book "Shakespeare" that Shakespeare may have had a male lover - suggested by the youth addressed in his sonnets

This pleases me to no end!

 

That doesn't just please me, it amuses me to no end

[hh5]

Recently read In Bill Bryson's book "Shakespeare" that Shakespeare may have had a male lover - suggested by the youth addressed in his sonnets

This pleases me to no end!

 

please give a all time favorite one as example

[Zenobia]

As I remembered it kind of out of the blue, I'd like to add "Aimeé and Jaguar" which I got to know as a film but it is based on real events during the end of WW2. Aimee and Jaguar are the names the two female lovers gave each other - Aimee was Lilly Wust, Jaguar was Felice Schragenheim, a young Jewish journalist. They lived together for about a year, then Felice was captured by the Gestapo in August 1944 and died at the end of the same year, as it seems. A very tragic story. I think I've seen the film many years ago when it was on German TV and I can recommend it - I'd like to see it again myself ... even if the end is tragic.

I don't know if there are any studies about female homosexuality in Nazi Germany; it should be an interesting research topic, though (I suppose there are at least articles as nearly every topic you can think of was discussed when it comes to that time period).

As far as I understand it for now (just read the wiki article), Felice was captured because she was Jewish, not because she was homosexual - does this mean that love between females wasn't considered as something that should be taken serious? That is something which applies e. g. also for the Middle Ages, generally spoken, as far as I know. It's also interesting to state that Lilly had four sons and wasn't captured because she had the Mutter(ehren)kreuz -> official name: Ehrenkreuz der Deutschen Mutter, which wiki translates literally with Cross of Honor of the German Mother.

[Zenobia]

... and something else: Walt Whitman is also an interesting person as fas as the topic "homosexuality" is concerned. Unfortunately I haven't read more than one or two poems of him yet.

Shakespeare is a completely different case, though. It seems that scholars have fights over many aspects of him - did he really live? Was his name only a pseudonym for about half a dozen of people? Etc. Obviously the less you know about a figure in history, the easier it is to develop the most striking theories.

[Former Member]

For those interested in any further reading where homosexuality in history is concerned, let me recommend the following books (author's last name, author's first name, titile. Place: publisher, year):

 

- Crompton, Louis, Homosexuality and Civilization. Cambridge: The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 2003.

- Neill, James, The Origins and Role of Same-Sex Relations in Human Societies. Jefferson: McFarland, 2009.

 

For those of you who can get their hands on either of these books, don't hesitate to read them

[Zolia Lily]

please give a all time favorite one as example

 

Unfortunately i'm overseas without my book of sonnets

BUT if you do your research, Shakespeare did exist, and theories suggesting he wasn't the author all seem to stem from the fact that there is this idea that he simply wasn't brilliant enough to have written them himself. Which seems to me a pretty poor reason to go looking for flimsy evidence to the contrary when a far simpler explanation is that Shakespeare was simply a genius.

Sorry. You got me started....

[hh5]

Zenobia, "Aimeé and Jaguar", wow this is something worth knowing. i just watch a video sample i found.

just to know how life really was ... gives us meaning ... of how much ... we as a generation ... need to find ways to live for those ... that tried n failed.

 

I never got into Shakespeare of who he was ... i sort of heard the mystery ... yaa what a choice ... to expose n deminish the romantic figure ... or to be or not to be ... be the fan or live the romantic era inside of Shakespeare .... sort of brings me to titanic the movie ... he loved that most every died ... lol

 

The idea of the physical romance .... to the immortality of love ... living on in the readers hearts ... of how precious love is ... but the predence of planning life outside the box ... to defeat the Shakespearean ending ... lol

 

I think I forgot an parts of his plays having gay characters ... but then I suppose in that era ... love is love ... I hope today ... it is true as well

[Zombie]

Zenobia, "Aimeé and Jaguar", wow this is something worth knowing. i just watch a video sample i found.

just to know how life really was ... gives us meaning ... of how much ... we as a generation ... need to find ways to live for those ... that tried n failed.

 

I never got into Shakespeare of who he was ... i sort of heard the mystery ... yaa what a choice ... to expose n deminish the romantic figure ... or to be or not to be ... be the fan or live the romantic era inside of Shakespeare .... sort of brings me to titanic the movie ... he loved that most every died ... lol

 

The idea of the physical romance .... to the immortality of love ... living on in the readers hearts ... of how precious love is ... but the predence of planning life outside the box ... to defeat the Shakespearean ending ... lol

 

I think I forgot an parts of his plays having gay characters ... but then I suppose in that era ... love is love ... I hope today ... it is true as well

 

 

Read Edward II, the play about "the gay king". It doesn't end well for him, not well at all

Edited April 24, 2012 by Zombie

[Celethiel]

Just so everyone who doesn't know, does there were members of the Nazi party whom were gay, in fact there were several, and there were many gays whom were killed by the Nazis in concentration camps. So our history like everyone elses was not always good, sadly...

[Benji]

Just so everyone who doesn't know, does there were members of the Nazi party whom were gay, in fact there were several, and there were many gays whom were killed by the Nazis in concentration camps. So our history like everyone elses was not always good, sadly...

I think you are referring to Ernst Rohm to whom Hitler knew was gay, Hitler did not care, but Rohm was seen as a danger to Hitler's other high staff. A forged document implied that Rohm was getting ready to revolt against Hitler, and take over. Hitler ordered the 'night of the long knives' which killed all of those at the spa in the late night, except Rohm and a few others that were jailed, offered suicide he refused and was executed.

 

Once Röhm and his supporters had been eliminated, Himmler was free to include homosexuals among those being rounded up for the camps. While there is no evidence that Röhm in any way protected the homosexual population, aside from his friends and lovers, it is a fact that arrests for homosexuality didn’t rise until after Röhm’s execution in 1934. The war against gays began with the press release stating that Röhm and others were killed due to their degenerate homosexuality.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Benji

[Celethiel]

Aye Benji i was reffering to Rohm and the Brown Shirts.

[hh5]

Here is one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Mathis

 

Can you imagine how many girls hearts he broke?

 

But did he attract many gay men's hearts?

[Traveller_23]

For those interested in any further reading where homosexuality in history is concerned, let me recommend the following books (author's last name, author's first name, titile. Place: publisher, year):

 

- Crompton, Louis, Homosexuality and Civilization. Cambridge: The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 2003.

- Neill, James, The Origins and Role of Same-Sex Relations in Human Societies. Jefferson: McFarland, 2009.

 

For those of you who can get their hands on either of these books, don't hesitate to read them

 

This site gives you the contents page: http://openlibrary.org/works/OL11977635W/The_origins_and_role_of_same-sex_relations_in_human_societies

 

It seems to cover quite a bit of the world over a long period of time, which I think is great. I like this broader view. Also, I like arming myself with specific geographical/cultural/historical knowledge for when I confront the parents!

[hh5]

wooof 463 pages

I'm glad its not read over 16 weeks

 

Even thou we've been around for as long as straights has ...

remember its you that has to be true to thyself

and while your at it make plenty of friends too

 

perhaps its something that our famous figures in history didn't have

and we have to recognize that it was hard on them

 

This site gives you the contents page: http://openlibrary.o...human_societies

 

It seems to cover quite a bit of the world over a long period of time, which I think is great. I like this broader view. Also, I like arming myself with specific geographical/cultural/historical knowledge for when I confront the parents!

 

[LJH]

Cowboys were heavily exploited and usually brutally treated until such time as they became able to beg, borrow, buy or steal a gun. They were used not only as cheap and disposable labor, but also for sexual release by older and stronger men. Such adult men used the pretext of a scarcity of women to establish enforced homosexual relationships in remote camps and ranches comparable to the relationships for which today's prisons are notorious.

 

The high incidence of pederasty and homosexual rape is the great dirty secret of the Old West frontier--and yet this is not from any lack of contemporary accounts which document or hint at it, including the famed woodcuts of men dancing with boys, descriptions of the practices of multiple men sleeping in single beds (as if there wasn't room enough out West for everyone to throw down his own bedroll), jokes about turns in the barrel, and the lyrics of certain Old West songs in which young men seem to be given women's names.

 

Indeed, the macho attitude traditionally affected by cowboys and gunfighters may have reflected the personal sexual insecurity of young men who often had little contact with women from the time they were first sent out on the range in their early teens, until a decade or more later--if they survived long enough and developed skills sufficient to get work back in town.

 

Meanwhile, many were "used as women" as the phrase of the day put it, unless they dared resist their masters, which could require murder. Such may have been the beginning of the story of Billy The Kid, among many others.

Taken from www.sharkonline.org

[LJH]

Here in sunny South Africa, the republic's 6th Prime Minister and founder of Rhodesia , now Zimbabwe, was thought to have had gay relationships. This taken from Wiki

 

Rhodes never married, pleading "I have too much work on my hands" and saying that he would not be a dutiful husband.[27] Some writers and academics have suggested that Rhodes may have been homosexual.

 

The scholar Richard Brown observed: "there is still the simpler but major problem of the extraordinarily thin evidence on which the conclusions about Rhodes are reached. Rhodes himself left few details... Indeed, Rhodes is a singularly difficult subject... since there exists little intimate material – no diaries and few personal letters."

 

Brown also comments: "On the issue of Rhodes' sexuality... there is, once again, simply not enough reliable evidence to reach firm, irrefutable conclusions. It is inferred, but not proved, that Rhodes was homosexual and it is assumed (but not proved) that his relationships with men were sometimes physical. Neville Pickering is described as Rhodes' lover in spite of the absence of decisive evidence."

 

Rhodes was close to Pickering; he returned from negotiations for Pickering's 25th birthday in 1882. On that occasion, Rhodes drew up a new will leaving his estate to Pickering. Two years later, Pickering suffered a riding accident. Rhodes nursed him faithfully for six weeks, refusing even to answer telegrams concerning his business interests. Pickering died in Rhodes' arms, and at his funeral Rhodes was said to have wept with fervor.

 

His successor was Henry Latham Currey, the son of an old friend, who had become Rhodes's private secretary in 1884. When Currey got engaged in 1894, Rhodes was deeply mortified and their relationship split.

 

Rhodes also remained close to Leander Starr Jameson after the two had met in Kimberley, where they shared a bungalow. In 1896 Earl Grey came to give Rhodes bad news. Rhodes instantly jumped to the conclusion that Jameson, who was ill, had died. On learning that his house had burnt down he commented, "Thank goodness. If Dr. Jim had died, I should never have got over it." Jameson nursed Rhodes during his final illness, was a trustee of his estate and residuary beneficiary of his will, which allowed him to continue living in Rhodes' mansion after his death. Rhodes' secretary, Jourdan, who was present shortly after Rhodes' death said, "Jameson was fighting against his own grief ... No mother could have displayed more tenderness towards the remains of a loved son". Jameson died in England in 1917, but after the war in 1920 his body was transferred to a grave beside that of Rhodes on Malindidzimu Hill or World's View, a granite hill in the Matopo National Park 40 km south of Bulawayo.

[hh5]

wow I learn something about Tim Considine from the movie Sunrise at Campbello

 

I recognized he's from Disney ,,, and then spotted a google keyword gay and then realized he had a gay affair with Tommy Kirk, also an actor at disney

 

Well when their playing around at a pool was recognized ... Tim lost his job ... Walt Disney cancelled his contract

 

Disney didn't like the gay liability

[gliese581]

The ancient Greek state of Thebes was famous for its "Sacred Band of Thebes," an elite army of gay couples who fought together. They were the special forces of their time and even defeated a Spartan (of "300" fame) army many times their size. They were only defeated by Philip II of Macedon (and his son, Alexander the Great [before he was great]). They fought to the death because each soldier didn't want to dishoner his lover. [source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_band_of_thebes ]

[Mark Arbour]

An interesting slide show on this topic in the Huffington Post.

[glomph]

*snickers* I'd laugh to no end, i think there was a famous Classical Composer that was of "questionable" orientation...but i am not sure which.

 

It is generally now accepted that Tchaikovsky was gay. While many in the West have thought he was, after the collapse of the Soviet Union his and his brothers letters that acknowledge it have been made public.

The movie Death in Venice makes the main character a composer (rather than the author in the book, as I recall) that appears modeled on Gustav Mahler, whose music is used in the soundtrack. But I don't know any reason to suspect that Mahler himself was gay. Of course, by the mid-20th century there were quite a few openly gay composers of varying degrees of fame.

Recently read In Bill Bryson's book "Shakespeare" that Shakespeare may have had a male lover - suggested by the youth addressed in his sonnets

This pleases me to no end!

 

It's hardly obvious who is addressed in many of the sonnets. The ones addressed to a younger man may be read as having a more fatherly interest than anything else, as I recall. (I'd welcome some good counter-examples, if anyone can post them.)

As for who wrote the plays, Isaac Asmiov has an interesting argument based on astronomy that they were not written by Francis Bacon.

wow I learn something about Tim Considine from the movie Sunrise at Campbello

I recognized he's from Disney ,,, and then spotted a google keyword gay and then realized he had a gay affair with Tommy Kirk, also an actor at disney

Well when their playing around at a pool was recognized ... Tim lost his job ... Walt Disney cancelled his contract

Disney didn't like the gay liability

 

I can see how Tim Considine could have starred in Tommy Kirk's wet dreams and be the subject of wishdar by a generation of gay men, but I've never seen the suggestion that there was anything between the two of them. Walt perhaps knew of Kirk's orientation earlier, but didn't fire him until confronted by the mom of a fifteen-year-old.

These guys are now in their 70s, hard as that is from me to imagine. (I like the software on this board that makes me eternally 56--ancient enough to most of you I realize. I tried changing it in the profile, but gave up. Now I'd just as soon that nobody tells me how to do it.)

 

Walt Whitman is the only gay man I know of with a bridge named after him. He doubted Shakespeare was the real author, too.

 

Writer Gertrude Stein lived with Alice B. Toklas about 40 years until Stein died.

[W_L]

There are lot of gay people in history to admire and hate, but it really depends on who is reading/writing the history books?

 

My favorite likely gay historical figure had to be Leonardo Da Vinci, a true genius of the renaissance with skills in art, science, engineering, and even cartography. He was and possibly still is one of the most intelligent gay men in history, who had an eye towards the future. He had basically designed new ideas in his sketch books for submarines with buoyancy adjustments, helicopters and vertical lift, an early type of solar panels, and even envisioned new types of defensive fortifications.

 

As his sexuality, his servant boy Gian Giacomo Caprotti da Oreno, nicknamed Salai, was probably Leonardo's longest co-dependent relationship after he entered Leonardo's service at age 10. Salai lied about things and stole from Leonardo, but he always came back to Leonardo, kind of like a boyfriend who you can never get rid of. The Mona Lisa was later given to him by Leonardo Da Vinci's will. An aristocratic boy named Francesco Meliz also apprenticed under Leonardo starting at age 14, who would accompany him to the court of Francis I of France. To Melzi, Leonardo would leave behind many of his artwork, scientific notes, and observations. Melzi eventually did marry and settled down with a nice girl, so it might have been one of those teenage flings or he was bi (No record of him having a male lover appears, so it is debatable whether Melzi was ever Leonardo's lover or just a surrogate son)

 

The age of Salai is probably what raises the most scrutiny, but it's not out of the ordinary. Most shows or media that hint at Leonardo's possible homosexuality don't mention the fact at how old salai was, perhaps to spare modern audiences a long debate over Da Vinci. .

 

Historically, relationships between youths and adults, especially in the upper class of society has existed for centuries. Separating the two ideas, what we would consider modern homosexual and gay relationships with historical couples based on what modern definitions would consider closer to pedophiles, is very difficult. Social mores are not the same as they once were, nor can you really judge people of the past on these issues.

[PrivateTim]

wow I learn something about Tim Considine from the movie Sunrise at Campbello

 

I recognized he's from Disney ,,, and then spotted a google keyword gay and then realized he had a gay affair with Tommy Kirk, also an actor at disney

 

Well when their playing around at a pool was recognized ... Tim lost his job ... Walt Disney cancelled his contract

 

Disney didn't like the gay liability

 

You have the story completely wrong.

 

Tim Considine is completely straight, has been married twice, his second and current marriage started in 1979.

 

Tommy Kirk IS gay and everyone at Disney knew, including Walt himself and no one cared until in 1963 when the 23 year old Kirk was having an affair with a 15 year old boy and the mother complained to the studio. Even at that the studio brought him back in 1965 for The Monkey's Uncle.

 

In 2006 Tommy Kirk, Tim Considine and Kevin Corcoran were all inducted in the Disney Legends hall of fame.

[hh5]

thanks for sorting that out

 

Tommy Kirk .. had drug usage issues and got fired from one of his acting gigs

 

No real news of why Tim disney career tapered off after 1960

The thing is he wasn't signed on under long term contract just like Tom

Both are almost the same age; differ by one year

 

You have the story completely wrong.

 

Tim Considine is completely straight, has been married twice, his second and current marriage started in 1979.

 

Tommy Kirk IS gay and everyone at Disney knew, including Walt himself and no one cared until in 1963 when the 23 year old Kirk was having an affair with a 15 year old boy and the mother complained to the studio. Even at that the studio brought him back in 1965 for The Monkey's Uncle.

 

In 2006 Tommy Kirk, Tim Considine and Kevin Corcoran were all inducted in the Disney Legends hall of fame.