Paternity

[MJ85]

The other time Will felt like a real character and not Mr. Golden Boy Prince was when he was explaining to Tony all the interesting marine biology stuff. By having Will be in the right all the time, it's hard to think of him as anything but Mark's fantasy 14-year old son. Seriously though, aside from thinking he was life partners with John Hobart when he wasn't, when has Will ever been clearly in the wrong? Even when Will trashed his parents house and ran off to Hawaii, we were supposed to feel sympathy for him and believe that Brad and Robbie deserved it, and everyone fell over themselves trying to make Will feel better about himself.

 

I still like and enjoy Will's character, but not as much as I did before the Hawaii escapade because it became, like you said, a sexed-up Parker Lewis with Family Problems, and less about an openly gay teenager enjoying his accepting friends in early 2000's California.

 

From Tim's review:

 

 

 

I don't know, I kind of feel like Brad's character integrity took a major hit with Millennium, and has never quite recovered. I kind of feel like in order to make Will the hero, Brad had to serve as the villain of some sort. Not to the extent that Jeanine has, but Brad needs to do things that piss off Will over and over again in order to demonstrate Will's reasons for rebelling against him.

 

Before Millennium, Brad and Robbie had a solid 15-year partnership and had raised three happy, healthy sons. Then that all just went to shit somewhere and somehow, to the point where neither of their two youngest sons relate to them anymore.

 

I think it's worse than that.

 

With so many comments of being "out-of-character" throughout this story so far...I think it's to the point where Brad has been so totally devolved as a character, that...there really isn't even any character to him now. All he is now, is Plot Movement, on two legs. Whatever, however, the plot would call for him to react - BAM! That's how he reacts. And, it may even be contagious - spreading to other members of the family as well.

 

This is really turning out to be a story filled with so many characters...and yet driven, and rigidly controlled, by Plot. And...sorry Mark, but I believe that that is greatly to its detriment.

[PrivateTim]

I didn't say Brad was out of character, he is very much in character. What I said was in so many words was it was odd he hadn't learned from the experience. He is still trying to be JP, the Controller, but he hasn't figured out how to control from behind yet. You control by co-opting others positions. You lay out the scenario for people and direct them to the outcome you want. When they stray off the path you want them on you guide them back by asking questions, not by pulling them back on path.

 

 

I still Will is a bit out of control, he doesn't see the big picture. He wants to be Will, the 14 year old going on 22, he has to show maturity not petulance and that he gets the big picture.

[sat8997]

Some thoughts:

 

I have always been a big fan of serialized fiction. The anticipation of whatever twists and turns are coming in the next chapter, having the satisfaction and/or disappointment of how my predictions pan out, these fourms and enjoying the way you guys batter points back and forth. The best part, though, is everyone reads fiction a bit differently, so their view of how a story is presented varies.

 

One of the things that makes Mark such an excellent author, is his ability to step into whichever character he's writing. Those of you who have commented on Brad being 'out-of-character' are, in my opinion, overlooking an important fact. When we've had Brad as the narrator, we've seen him as he sees himself. A bit of an arrogant ass, rich and powerful, but charming none the less. And he gets great sex scenes to keep you horny dudes happy. In this story, we're seeing him through Wills's eyes. And he's not measuring up to his son's expectations. Will, at 14, is half child, half man. He's seeing that his father isn't that perfect person that Will always saw him as. You expect your parents to 'do the right thing'. And most of the time they do, it's just their idea of the right thing sometimes differs from yours.

 

Having the advantage of being several chapters ahead, I'll just suggest everyone settle in for the ride. Story's not done yet. Let's let it play out the way Mark intends.

[Mark Arbour]

I have pondered that maybe Will isn't right. On the one hand, he clearly has a good point in insisting that his family take steps to protect him from a clearly deranged mother and her sidekick (i.e. Michael). On the other hand, he's using blackmail to make his point. He's also biting the proverbial hand by continually lashing out at Stef, one of his biggest supporters in all these problems. I think, in this case, that Will is overplaying his hand. Has he considered the implications of reporting his family to CPS (the acronym we us out where I live)? Is he considering that all the wonderful benefits he gets from being a member of a rich and powerful family come with strings attached, and that all could be lost through his truculence? I don't think he's thinking of anything but himself...something which is at once the beauty and the scourge of youth. At a certain point, people can and will stop feeling bad about their wrongs because you're also wrong. I think he'll look back, later in life, on these times of severe self-absorption and feel a certain sense of shame, even if he can convince himself of his "rightness"...being "right" doesn't mean that you can't be so for the wrong reasons.

 

I'm reminded of JP and his lecturing of Stef about the duties of the wealthy and their obligations to society and their family. I think this is one of those situations where JP needs to swoop in, instruct Brad and Stef in the error of their ways, and the explain the realities of life...the wealthy life...to Will.

 

I got your virgin post! And an excellent post at that.

[Mark Arbour]

I didn't say Brad was out of character, he is very much in character. What I said was in so many words was it was odd he hadn't learned from the experience. He is still trying to be JP, the Controller, but he hasn't figured out how to control from behind yet. You control by co-opting others positions. You lay out the scenario for people and direct them to the outcome you want. When they stray off the path you want them on you guide them back by asking questions, not by pulling them back on path.

 

 

I still Will is a bit out of control, he doesn't see the big picture. He wants to be Will, the 14 year old going on 22, he has to show maturity not petulance and that he gets the big picture.

 

Very well said. JP leads by using respect, influence, and occasionally manipulation. Brad tends to get out in front and lead the charge, expecting others to blindly follow. To use a military analogy, Brad is a good lieutenant, but he's not a good general yet. JP, well, he's a field marshal.

 

Some thoughts:

 

I have always been a big fan of serialized fiction. The anticipation of whatever twists and turns are coming in the next chapter, having the satisfaction and/or disappointment of how my predictions pan out, these fourms and enjoying the way you guys batter points back and forth. The best part, though, is everyone reads fiction a bit differently, so their view of how a story is presented varies.

 

One of the things that makes Mark such an excellent author, is his ability to step into whichever character he's writing. Those of you who have commented on Brad being 'out-of-character' are, in my opinion, overlooking an important fact. When we've had Brad as the narrator, we've seen him as he sees himself. A bit of an arrogant ass, rich and powerful, but charming none the less. And he gets great sex scenes to keep you horny dudes happy. In this story, we're seeing him through Wills's eyes. And he's not measuring up to his son's expectations. Will, at 14, is half child, half man. He's seeing that his father isn't that perfect person that Will always saw him as. You expect your parents to 'do the right thing'. And most of the time they do, it's just their idea of the right thing sometimes differs from yours.

 

Having the advantage of being several chapters ahead, I'll just suggest everyone settle in for the ride. Story's not done yet. Let's let it play out the way Mark intends.

 

Wow. I really wish you'd post more. You just laid it out there better than I could have dreamed, and clarified things even for me.

[MJ85]

Settle in for the ride, eh? Promises, promises...

[centexhairysub]

Very well said. JP leads by using respect, influence, and occasionally manipulation. Brad tends to get out in front and lead the charge, expecting others to blindly follow. To use a military analogy, Brad is a good lieutenant, but he's not a good general yet. JP, well, he's a field marshal.

 

Field Marshall, hell... JP is whatever the position is that controls not only the army but navy and air force as well... Maybe that makes him the Emperor of Online Armed Forces...

[sat8997]

Wow. I really wish you'd post more. You just laid it out there better than I could have dreamed, and clarified things even for me.

 

Eh...if I posted more often, I wouldn't sound so profound.

[methodwriter85]

From reviews...

 

It seems to me that he should have by now considering that the entire family is babying JJ the same way Isidore did to Billy in "Be Rad," and we both know what disasterous outcome resulted from that mess.

In thinking about it, I can't really see Billy's fate awaiting JJ, at least not when JJ is still so driven to see himself at the 2006(possibly 2010) Olympics. He's got an image to protect, and a drive so strong that I can't see him being as easily led as Billy was. That was Billy's downfall- he couldn't say no to peer pressure, and rode in a car with guys that were so completely blitzed that they couldn't drive. I can't see JJ putting himself into that kind of situation, because any partying JJ does will be behind tightly closed doors with people he trusts not to blab things to the media.

 

When 2006 comes and goes without any Olympic medals to show for it, THEN I can see JJ possibly heading into some risky behavior. But for now, JJ's life is pretty well regulated, without any room for self-destructive behavior. For now.

 

 

I will be curious to see at what point the "adults" finally have an ah-ha moment and get it together. Personally I think it would do JJ some good to be taken down a few pegs and have his ego deflated a bit.

 

Watching the Olympics really emphasizes just how much these elite athletes pour their entire selves and being into this sport. I think the ego deflation will be good for him, but you gotta realize- JJ over the past two years has sacrificed so many things- going on family trips, school days, extracurricular activities, friendships, social events- all for the chance to be the best. This is a really high-pressure and competitive sport where someone can just like *that* go from being the odds-on-favorite to not even placing. Not the same sport, of course, but seeing Jordyn Weiber, crying her eyes out, really made me think about just how much these people sacrifice, and often never realize their dreams.

 

JJ's entire sense of self-worth is tied up into being a figure skater, which will lead to some interesting things down the road, because we know going into this that JJ will never reach the pinnacle of figure skating. Yeah, his ego is over-blown...but...what else does JJ really have that he's good at, as opposed to his brothers who are good at nearly everything they try?

Edited July 30, 2012 by methodwriter85

[BeysJoshersLepton V2]

I can't remember whether or not Jeanine has been diagnosed before. I'm at two minds as to whether or not I like her as a character, I want her to almost be more then what the need for the character is. Thats my issue though, I see why shes used in the manner she currently is now. Unstable, manipulative, vindictive, dangerous, uncaring, malicious any and more suit the character. Problem is the comorbidity of mental health disorders, so looking forward to the fnal clinical diagnosis if its revealed. I can't from the chapters give one, I'd be surprised at anyone who tried given its from Will's subjective view point. Only you can as you're inside her head so to speak creating her. I've always loved how distinct you make each character when writing. I'd be very interested if that could be pulled off with someone who certifiable and commited not that I want a book based round her .

 

A story which always sticks with me when it comes to the way clients see the world, was given to me by my lecturer. He was treating someone with Pure O OCD and for the first 4 weeks he'd brought two cups of water in before the session as the little plastic cups were just outside his office down the hall from the therapy room. The 5th week the cups hadn't been restocked so he'd used his own mug but didn't have a second. The session started and after 5 minutes of no progress or real discussion there was resistence and body tension, the client started talking about the water when asked why he was giving off these signals. "What have I done wrong for you to treat me this way", "How could you not bring me my water", "We always have our water, one for me, one for you, wheres mine!"? Such a simple thing can be seen as such a massive slight to someone who has a mental illness, I can't imagine how convoluted Jeanines world view must be, especially with the addition of percieved power.

[B1ue]

Well, that's one mystery (JJ's sexuality, not a huge surprise after this book) cleared up; though I'm curious if there was a reason besides traveling that they were all so bitchy on the way back.

[MJ85]

My guess is, a combination of late hours and not quite shaking off the tense dinner from earlier.

[methodwriter85]

Well, that's one mystery (JJ's sexuality, not a huge surprise after this book) cleared up; though I'm curious if there was a reason besides traveling that they were all so bitchy on the way back.

 

I liked that JJ was only making out with Evan, not having sex. I like that Mark's taking it slow with JJ in regards to things like sexuality; it makes a nice contrast to Will's very precocious sexuality. JJ's taking slower steps into adulthood, as opposed to Will's headlong rush into it.

 

Love it. Fun chapter. I hope Jeannie going back to the nut house.... errr, controlled living situation, keeps Will in LA and at H-W.

You're really attached to the idea of Will being in LA and at HW, aren't you? To be honest, so am I. I've loved Will's HW friends and it'd be a shame to lose them.

 

The impression that I've gotten from people is that SoCal people generally don't do well in NorCal, but we'll see what happens if/when Will decides to go to Palo Alto and Menlo School.

Edited July 31, 2012 by methodwriter85

[Hermetically Sealed]

In your immeasurable wisdom, did you ponder that maybe Will isn't right? Just asking.

 

I don't just ponder it, it has been my expressed opinion that Will is all kinds of wrong. Sure, there's the cop out that "well, this is just Will's point of view," but the acts of everyone around him continue to merely endorse this world view. I'm still waiting for someone to finally set him down and lead him through more than just a side comment on his actions. Someone who won't just leave it at a "you could have handled it better," then walking off expecting him to get it. Someone who would sit him down, say " you really want to understand why people don't trust you or take you seriously?" and lead him through his past actions, pointing out just how selfish, unreasonable and down right hurtful his exlosive, scortched earth policies tend to be. Heck, I think JP would do a stupendous job.

 

I'd also wish someone would point out just how bad of a son he was to Jeanine long before this situation, and how it was him pitting her and his father against each other for years. Everytime he didn't want to do something he ran off to daddy and got his way, but yeah, he's not the one manipulating others. Then there's his bizarre and frankly laughable idea that somehow his last few weeks even remotely compares to what Brad's mother did to him. I don't remember if Brad has actually told him about he went through, but someone needs to correct that soon. It might even give him a good perspective on just how nice he's had it. Not that it would probably stop the little rat from manipulating Brad with it again, the way his ego is growing.

 

Will has some justified anger, but the boy is 10 times more explosive than Brad ever was, and is less able to see shades of gray.

 

So yeah, no pondering here.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Hermetically Sealed

[B1ue]

The impression that I've gotten from people is that SoCal people generally don't do well in NorCal, but we'll see what happens if/when Will decides to go to Palo Alto and Menlo School.

 

I've lived in both. It's different, but so is everywhere. I find it has more to do with the person's willingness to adapt to new circumstances rather than any instrinsic difference on the part of the localities. Like, if they can't handle the Bay Area after LA, then would Hawaii (which for the most part is pretty rural at the same time it is touristy), Houston (so...so hot), or Clairemont be much better?

[MJ85]

I don't just ponder it, it has been my expressed opinion that Will is all kinds of wrong. Sure, there's the cop out that "well, this is just Will's point of view," but the acts of everyone around him continue to merely endorse this world view. I'm still waiting for someone to finally set him down and lead him through more than just a side comment on his actions. Someone who won't just leave it at a "you could have handled it better," then walking off expecting him to get it. Someone who would sit him down, say " you really want to understand why people don't trust you or take you seriously?" and lead him through his past actions, pointing out just how selfish, unreasonable and down right hurtful his exlosive, scortched earth policies tend to be. Heck, I think JP would do a stupendous job.

 

I'd also wish someone would point out just how bad of a son he was to Jeanine long before this situation, and how it was him pitting her and his father against each other for years. Everytime he didn't want to do something he ran off to daddy and got his way, but yeah, he's not the one manipulating others. Then there's his bizarre and frankly laughable idea that somehow his last few weeks even remotely compares to what Brad's mother did to him. I don't remember if Brad has actually told him about he went through, but someone needs to correct that soon. It might even give him a good perspective on just how nice he's had it. Not that it would probably stop the little rat from manipulating Brad with it again, the way his ego is growing.

 

Will has some justified anger, but the boy is 10 times more explosive than Brad ever was, and is less able to see shades of gray.

 

So yeah, no pondering here.

 

You're thinking Will's the villain rather than Jeanine, aren't you??

[Daddydavek]

The situation with Michael somehow seems ufinished and hopefully, Will's new security person can deal with things should he re-appear. Will's relentless reminder to Brad of his promise to be home more showed his dependence on their relationship.

 

JJ standing up to this dad was interesting.

 

I am looking forward to hearing things from Wade's POV and how he gets throught the election drama.

[PrivateTim]

You're really attached to the idea of Will being in LA and at HW, aren't you? To be honest, so am I. I've loved Will's HW friends and it'd be a shame to lose them.

 

The impression that I've gotten from people is that SoCal people generally don't do well in NorCal, but we'll see what happens if/when Will decides to go to Palo Alto and Menlo School.

 

So Cal and Nor Cal are just different. I've lived in both and flourished in each, but if you are a hard core beach person, Palo Alto is a bad trade off for Malibu, even if you have a Santa Cruz beach house.

 

H-W isn't that different from Menlo, but I see Will's future in So Cal and H-W is a better fit for that. Will also has good friends like Ryan that I would hate to see him lose.

I don't just ponder it, it has been my expressed opinion that Will is all kinds of wrong. Sure, there's the cop out that "well, this is just Will's point of view," but the acts of everyone around him continue to merely endorse this world view. I'm still waiting for someone to finally set him down and lead him through more than just a side comment on his actions. Someone who won't just leave it at a "you could have handled it better," then walking off expecting him to get it. Someone who would sit him down, say " you really want to understand why people don't trust you or take you seriously?" and lead him through his past actions, pointing out just how selfish, unreasonable and down right hurtful his exlosive, scortched earth policies tend to be. Heck, I think JP would do a stupendous job.

 

I'd also wish someone would point out just how bad of a son he was to Jeanine long before this situation, and how it was him pitting her and his father against each other

 

I was kind of there with you until the last sentence (quoted). He was NOT a bad son, he was a typical kid. You can't blame him for the adults letting him play them. They ARE the adults. That is Brad and Jeannie's fault.

[mmike1969]

 

 

Re JJ: I knew several str8 guys who later admitted to having a same sex relations earlier in life. No biggie here.

 

Re Will's mom... How many times does she have to prove her craziness before people needs to stop listening to her!

 

Re Michael: A horrible, painfull and stretched out death could not come fast enough.

Edited August 1, 2012 by mmike1969

[methodwriter85]

Re JJ: I knew several str8 guys who later admitted to having a same sex relations earlier in life. No biggie here.

 

Or JJ can wind up being someone who doesn't fit into either "gay" or "straight". It'd be funny if that's the one thing he winds up having in common with his hated Gathan.

 

H-W isn't that different from Menlo, but I see Will's future in So Cal and H-W is a better fit for that. Will also has good friends like Ryan that I would hate to see him lose.

I agree completely. I see JJ ultimately moving off to NYC or maybe Europe, but Will feels like he's an L.A. boy for life. And his HW friends have been pretty awesomely depicted. Mark has done such a great job of writing them; I'd hate to lose them, too.

Edited August 1, 2012 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

I don't just ponder it, it has been my expressed opinion that Will is all kinds of wrong. Sure, there's the cop out that "well, this is just Will's point of view," but the acts of everyone around him continue to merely endorse this world view. I'm still waiting for someone to finally set him down and lead him through more than just a side comment on his actions. Someone who won't just leave it at a "you could have handled it better," then walking off expecting him to get it. Someone who would sit him down, say " you really want to understand why people don't trust you or take you seriously?" and lead him through his past actions, pointing out just how selfish, unreasonable and down right hurtful his exlosive, scortched earth policies tend to be. Heck, I think JP would do a stupendous job.

 

I'd also wish someone would point out just how bad of a son he was to Jeanine long before this situation, and how it was him pitting her and his father against each other for years. Everytime he didn't want to do something he ran off to daddy and got his way, but yeah, he's not the one manipulating others. Then there's his bizarre and frankly laughable idea that somehow his last few weeks even remotely compares to what Brad's mother did to him. I don't remember if Brad has actually told him about he went through, but someone needs to correct that soon. It might even give him a good perspective on just how nice he's had it. Not that it would probably stop the little rat from manipulating Brad with it again, the way his ego is growing.

 

Will has some justified anger, but the boy is 10 times more explosive than Brad ever was, and is less able to see shades of gray.

 

So yeah, no pondering here.

 

I think that Will was more of a pawn in the power games between Brad and Jeanine than the grand manipulator. He's much too direct for that.

[Mark Arbour]

Re JJ: I knew several str8 guys who later admitted to having a same sex relations earlier in life. No biggie here.

 

Re Will's mom... How many times does she have to prove her craziness before people needs to stop listening to her!

 

Re Michael: A horrible, painfull and stretched out death could not come fast enough.

 

I think that Clare said it best when she noted that Brad is probably having issues with her because of his own mother. That gives her more power and influence in this situation than she probably should have.

[Mark Arbour]

 

I agree completely. I see JJ ultimately moving off to NYC or maybe Europe, but Will feels like he's an L.A. boy for life. And his HW friends have been pretty awesomely depicted. Mark has done such a great job of writing them; I'd hate to lose them, too.

 

I think this is only the 17th time you've pointed that out.

[Hermetically Sealed]

I was kind of there with you until the last sentence (quoted). He was NOT a bad son, he was a typical kid. You can't blame him for the adults letting him play them. They ARE the adults. That is Brad and Jeannie's fault.

Yes and no. As far as any of the stories have portrayed, Brad didn't even realize what he was doing, or that he was even pissing Jeanine off. He was pretty oblivious, and it didn't seem as if Jeanine had even brotched the subject until Brad apologized for having done that and she thanked him for saying he'd try to be more inclusive in decisions. Will basically took advantage of the fact that he knew his dad would let him do what he wanted. Does that make him typical, I guess, but being typical doesn't mean he was good for doing it. Whether he was doing it intentionally or not, his actions where pretty dissmissive of her.

 

 

You're thinking Will's the villain rather than Jeanine, aren't you??

LoL

I don't think either one is a villain. Will is just a spoiled, entitled rich kid whom, for whatever bizarre reason, no adult seems to want to correct. Heck, the way all adults seem to become mentally vapid the second Will walks into the room makes me wonder if Mark isn't slightly going back on his statement of never including fantasical elements to the stories, and Will is beginning to manifest his mutant ability.

 

Meanwhile Jeanine is suffering from severe mental breakdown, and really doesn't seem to be in control of herself. She's dangerous, to everyone and herself, but not because she's a bad person. It may take a while, but (hopefully) she will eventually go back to normal

[methodwriter85]

So JJ is a closet case living among a herd of gay people.

If you're interested, here's a short article from 2006 that talks about the difficulty of being openly gay in figure skating.

 

http://www.outsports.com/olympics/2006torino/kimfigureskating.htm

 

It's a pretty interesting environment for JJ to grow up in- on one hand, being from a family that has so many openly gay and bi men. On the other hand, he's pursuing a sport where anything but a heterosexual, straight-arrow public image would cost him sponsorships and contracts. Some really interesting conflict there.

 

I think this is only the 17th time you've pointed that out.

 

That's because it really would be a shame to lose the HW crew that you spent so much time building up.

 

Will is just a spoiled, entitled rich kid whom, for whatever bizarre reason, no adult seems to want to correct. Heck, the way all adults seem to become mentally vapid the second Will walks into the room makes me wonder if Mark isn't slightly going back on his statement of never including fantasical elements to the stories, and Will is beginning to manifest his mutant ability.

Well, from what I understand, because Will's maintaining a 4.0 and selflessly volunteers at the Mission(where he used his contacts to buy a fake I.D. and get roofies) that automatically makes him an upstanding young man who deserves all of the accolades that he's given by the adults, save for the big meanies like Jeanine and Brad.

Edited August 2, 2012 by methodwriter85