Paternity

[rjo]

My Grandmother was 16 when my mother was born. Her sister my great aunt, was married and had three children by the time she was 20. Her and her husband were married for almost 70 years. In those years children had to grow up fast. People did not live as long and many died early. It was a different time. Many people left home at 16 or sometimes younger. Today we try to hold on to childhood. Having grown up in the 50's and early 60's it was a simpler time. Today children have a harder time of it. More temptations. With that said, it is my hope that this family can come together and reason out an answer that will solve most of the problems without tearing the family in two. More drama! Hopefully less shouting. This book is about the relationship between fathers and sons. Sometimes it can be difficult, even overwhelming, but still there is a bond that can still remain.

Edited August 31, 2012 by rjo

[PrivateTim]

Just as a small side note: I have met a 14 year old ready to make sound judgements for their lives. Actually, two. Specifically, because I raised them that way. To start thinking for, and deciding for, themselves. It's what made them the wonderful young adults they are today.

 

So they moved out and lived on their own when they were freshmen in high school?

[sat8997]

Of course they did, Sweetcheeks. It is a testament to my awesome parenting skills. But, just so you know, they didn't file for emancipation. It wasn't necessary, as it's a time honored tradition in my family to let your young ones fly early. They were tall enough to reach the controls on the washing machine, so they were good to go.

 

I guess it never occured to anyone where Mark gets his ideas.

 

Cake!!!

[methodwriter85]

Tim, there are some people you will never be able to crack under cross-examination. Sharon is one of them.

 

I'd pay good money to see you go toe-to-toe with Adam Phillips, though. Dear god, that'd be funny. Adam would still win, but it'd be great to see you try.

Edited September 1, 2012 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

Of course they did, Sweetcheeks. It is a testament to my awesome parenting skills. But, just so you know, they didn't file for emancipation. It wasn't necessary, as it's a time honored tradition in my family to let your young ones fly early. They were tall enough to reach the controls on the washing machine, so they were good to go.

So how many months after they had drugged your partner was it that they moved out? Was their moving out still in the six month window of the naked pole dance they did in that disco? When you repainted your $200,000 car did you keep it the same color or chose a new one? What about your partners car? The new wardrobe, the one to replace all the clothes they destroyed, same thing, did you go for a new look with all the new clothes or did you just replace the old ones? Did you make them repay you the $20k they stole to go surfing in Hawaii? Did you take away the fake ID's they'd bought before they left? Lastly, when the school called about their alcohol use on a field trip, was that when you thought they had reached the maturity level needed to move out and set up house on their own?

 

Just curious.

[MJ85]

Obsess much...?

[GLH]

/me <sighs>

[B1ue]

Did you take away the fake ID's they'd bought before they left?

Now you're just being silly here. You don't take away a compromised ID. You track it.

 

Heck, if I'd been in the kid's position, I'd offer the fake ID voluntarily, as a good faith gift that actually costs me little. A new one, one my parent's didn't know the details (or existence) of, would not be all that hard to come by. And if I really needed to use a different identity to run away from my parent's a second time, like Will should be contemplating (not that he should do it, but it'd be poor planning if it wasn't on his list of options), a fake ID they knew about would be the last thing I'd use, as they'd be sure to check it even before my real identity.

 

Edit: That actually stirs another thought to me. I'm not sure if it's occured to any of the characters in the story yet, even including Will, but whatever his maturity level, he has a couple of times, in a couple different ways, demonstrated a suprising level of competence at getting himself out of the control of a person that has every interest in keeping him confined. Considering the assorted enemies he's inherited and will surely make on his own, that's not a wasted talent. I wonder how the second kidnapping attempt will go?

Edited September 1, 2012 by B1ue

[mmike1969]

Some people here really have no concept of what fiction is...

 

This is why I stopped commenting on individual chapters since some people forget this is a fictional story with fictional characters.

 

Real life has nothing to do with fiction. That is the whole purpose. If Mark gave Will emancipation, even at his young age, then Will has it. Real world has Nothing to do with it.

 

Do I believe this whole story is even remotely possible? Not even. There is NO WAY in Hell am I ever going to believe Brad and Robbie has either a miter saw or a sledge hammer in their garage or even if I think they know the true purpose of either tool besides tossing a sledge hammer into car windshields or cutting shoes in half with a saw.

 

I do not read Mark's stories because they are supposed to reflect real case studies of law and order.

 

I read Mark's stories because I enjoy good fiction. Maybe some of you should remember that.

Edited September 1, 2012 by mmike1969

[rjo]

I agree with you Mike. This is fiction. Sometimes, most of the time, it seems so real we forget that. I think it's a tribute to Mark's writing and his team that it seems so real. I've visited or lived in many of the locations which the saga takes place, the details drew me to the story at first and the characters kept me coming back. CenTex said Mark was a bard. Even though Mark is not a ancient blind Greek, the saga does have the timeless appeal and that is saying something very special, indeed.

Edited September 1, 2012 by rjo

[Westie]

So how many months after they had drugged your partner was it that they moved out? Was their moving out still in the six month window of the naked pole dance they did in that disco? When you repainted your $200,000 car did you keep it the same color or chose a new one? What about your partners car? The new wardrobe, the one to replace all the clothes they destroyed, same thing, did you go for a new look with all the new clothes or did you just replace the old ones? Did you make them repay you the $20k they stole to go surfing in Hawaii? Did you take away the fake ID's they'd bought before they left? Lastly, when the school called about their alcohol use on a field trip, was that when you thought they had reached the maturity level needed to move out and set up house on their own?

 

Just curious.

 

Tim, Sharon was merely pointing out that a 14 year old can be mature enough to live alone. You take her personal experience and try to nail it to Will, in order to make her stance look ridiculous - and while that may help you in a courtroom when you argue, it doesn't actually help your case.

 

I know you cannot comprehend the idea that a son would question the rights of his father - I know the army teaches you to follow orders blindly and without thinking - but in almost every other sphere of life an independent mind is actually an asset.

 

You make no allowances for the possibility that Will was suffering from PTSD while in Rome. You blame Will for wanting to go to Rome, yet fail to question why after such trauma Brad didn't stay with him. You blindly assume that the father (or should I say fuhrer in this case) is correct, and that even if he isn't he shouldn't be questioned.

 

You blame Will for the property destruction as he ran away to Hawaii - but fail to take into account that there were extreme mitigating circumstances for his anger. Blinded by temporary insanity perhaps?

 

That said, I happen to agree with you that Will is not fit for emancipation. While he is in control when he is calm - he is rarely that. At the same time, Brad is without doubt an unfit father at this point. Neither should be in a position of control.

 

At this point I think there are only two healthy options. The first would be to place Will in the care of either JP or Claire - but I feel that would leave him in a still damaging psychological environment. Actually I now believe the best solution all round would be to put him into a more "normal" environment. The only environment I see that would fit that bill right now is with Wally and Clara, as a favour to to JP.

[rjo]

The problem with Wally and Clara is a big one, Zach. I think the best place is still JP or Claire. Claire has her hands full with Ella. Will and Darius are having problems too. So that is the problem with Claire's. Also would Will want to move to Ohio? If Will and Brad are to rebuild their relationship they need some time together in a neutral place. Brad comes up to Paly a few days a week so that would work. I like Claire's but for Darius. Jack and Claire's would be even more neutral. JP and Brad are more at odds. Battle of wills. Or maybe battle over Will. Sorry I had to say that. I guess Claire's would be the best. She can keep Will in line and still give him some freedom. My vote is that Claire is given guardianship over Will until Will and Brad can work things out.

Edited September 1, 2012 by rjo

[mmike1969]

Okay, I have an idea. Let's toss all logic out and have the judge grant Will's guardianship over to Father Tim.

 

That way Will can still have his surfing, Will can be still close by to Brad/Robbie, and maybe Will be the biggest disappointment to everyone by finding religion AND abstain from random sex.

[PrivateTim]

Tim, Sharon was merely pointing out that a 14 year old can be mature enough to live alone. You take her personal experience and try to nail it to Will, in order to make her stance look ridiculous - and while that may help you in a courtroom when you argue, it doesn't actually help your case.

 

I know you cannot comprehend the idea that a son would question the rights of his father - I know the army teaches you to follow orders blindly and without thinking - but in almost every other sphere of life an independent mind is actually an asset.

 

You make no allowances for the possibility that Will was suffering from PTSD while in Rome. You blame Will for wanting to go to Rome, yet fail to question why after such trauma Brad didn't stay with him. You blindly assume that the father (or should I say fuhrer in this case) is correct, and that even if he isn't he shouldn't be questioned.

 

You blame Will for the property destruction as he ran away to Hawaii - but fail to take into account that there were extreme mitigating circumstances for his anger. Blinded by temporary insanity perhaps?

 

That said, I happen to agree with you that Will is not fit for emancipation. While he is in control when he is calm - he is rarely that. At the same time, Brad is without doubt an unfit father at this point. Neither should be in a position of control.

Sharon made a point about 14 year olds who are ready to move out on their own because they have demonstrated a maturity and enough responsibility to warrant such a move. I pointed out Will's lack of maturity or demonstration of responsibility and good decision making.

 

If Will is suffering from PTSD, the catch-all that excuses everything he has done since then, then why would emancipation be a good thing? What judge would find it in Will's best interest?

 

It isn't "blame" in Will's wanting to stay and then go to Rome, I merely point out that it was HIS decision. I don't this "furher" thing (do we need to invoke Godwin's Law?). If Brad were dictating to Will in the best traditions of the Vaterland he would have made Will leave with them.

 

Have you forgotten that Brad was kidnapped and abused too? Can I use PTSD to explain everything he has done since then? They were scheduled to go home, Rome was an added trip and Brad thought it best to get Robbis out of France. I think he deserves kudos for letting Will make his own decision. Have we also forgotten that less than two months ago Brad moved Will from the "women and children's house" to the "man house" in recognition of Will's growing older?

 

So there are two instances where Brad was trying to recognize Will's progress. But what had Will done in the interim to warrant his father's gestures? He didn't go and calmly discuss why Pat was he demanded, yelled, dictated and made cutting remarks he was certain were going to wound his fathers whose biggest crime seemed to be not paying enough attention to him. It is one thing for a child to question a parent, but Will doesn't question, he turns nasty and mean and says things calculated to hurt when things aren't going his way. My parents were a long ways from being strict and there has been nothing strict about Brad. He has been overly permissive if anything. I will give him his share of the blame for spoiling and indulging Will, for undermining his mother's authority.

 

Brad is more than a fit father, especially in the eyes of the law. Like I said in an earlier post, he might be in the Father of The Year competition this year, but Will is more than adequately cared for. He is indulged beyond belief.

 

Okay, I have an idea. Let's toss all logic out and have the judge grant Will's guardianship over to Father Tim.

 

That way Will can still have his surfing, Will can be still close by to Brad/Robbie, and maybe Will be the biggest disappointment to everyone by finding religion AND abstain from random sex.

Hey, there is the best idea of all. Will can get a real taste of reality. He can live with boys who really have been abused and neglected by their parents, boys who every day have to live with the fear of an incredibly uncertain future.

[methodwriter85]

Will is never going to get a taste of reality, because Will isn't real, and this is a fluffy soap opera of wish fulfillment and erotica with historical events in the background, not a gritty documentary about rich kids who go over the edge and suffer real consequences for their behavior. This is a story of rich people who live in a bubble who can get anything and everything they want, except for love (sometimes). That's what Mark wants to write, and if you have a problem with that, there's always the door.

 

Anyway, I honestly think that if Will gets emancipated, he'll realize that that there are a lot of things he'll have to change about his behavior. Will can't be the reckless teenager who did strip dances in Europe or used pot and alcohol on his field trip, because everything he does now is on him in a way that it wasn't as a minor. He's not a stupid kid- he knows that this could be revoked, and I can't see a person who's written as being that big of a control freak doing anything to jeopardize this massive amount of freedom that he's getting.

Edited September 2, 2012 by methodwriter85

[Daddydavek]

I sometimes wonder if Mark's students give him as much grief as his fans in this forum? Just curious!

[methodwriter85]

I sometimes wonder if Mark's students give him as much grief as his fans in this forum? Just curious!

 

I always kind of saw myself as being like a curious, bright-eyed student in Mark's class, who can be a little stubborn sometimes on certain things, but whom Mark can't help but love. (If still completely annoyed at, sometimes. Okay, a lot of times.)

 

Of course, now that I'm pushing 30 that dynamic will probably have to change in the coming years, but for now, I love having that with Mark.

Edited September 2, 2012 by methodwriter85

[sat8997]

Sharon made a point about 14 year olds who are ready to move out on their own because they have demonstrated a maturity and enough responsibility to warrant such a move.

 

No, actually, I didn't. I responded to your comment about never meeting a 14 year old ready to make sound judgements for their lives. I have and I used my kids as an example. As a parent, I do think that by the time your child is 14 they should be able to do just that, start making sound judgements regarding their life. Notice I said 'start'? They need to feel that they have some control in how their life progresses. How else are they to learn to be productive members of society?

 

You're the one that brought up 14 year olds moving out on their own. I just rolled with it to amuse myself while blowing smoke up your ass.

Edited September 2, 2012 by sat8997

[rjo]

I never argue with a goddess. It is just not wise.

[methodwriter85]

You're the one that brought up 14 year olds moving out on their own. I just rolled with it to amuse myself while blowing smoke up your ass.

 

This is why you don't mess with a no-nonsense Italian mother from Baltimore, Private Tim.

[Mark Arbour]

Sharon is always right. So is my wife. These are things I've learned to just accept as truths.

[methodwriter85]

Ain't that the truth? A wife is always right.Thank god i'm gay and I'll never have a wife.

[Westie]

Ain't that the truth? A wife is always right.Thank god i'm gay and I'll never have a wife.

 

Dude, it don't work that way.

 

I'm gay, but in my relationship, Paya is always right.

 

You can't win

 

PS - nobody tell him I said this, be cool, huh?

[rjo]

Maybe that's a good thing.

[Westie]

Brad is more than a fit father, especially in the eyes of the law. Like I said in an earlier post, he might be in the Father of The Year competition this year, but Will is more than adequately cared for. He is indulged beyond belief.

 

Then the law is completely inadequate. Whatever you say legally, brad is now an unfit father. To say he's been bad "this year" but because he has been good in other years he can get away with it is completely off the wall.

 

Brad has covered up for a peadophile in this story. I wonder if we went over to the soapbox whether we would see you have a different attitude to people covering up pedophilia when it applies in the catholic church?

 

What Brad has done here is exactly the same - he covered up a terrible crime in order to save his own reputation. That the victims were two of his children makes this even sicker. So yes, even everything else aside, not only is Brad an unfit father, but he is a criminal who should be in jail.

 

We, as readers, also know that he is a murderer. That doesn't help Will in the story, but we have the benefit of arguing outside the story. Brad had committed murder. I'm not certain about the US, but certainly in the UK some of his actions in millennium - manipulating the stock price of omega - would certainly have been criminal. He sees fit to hire staff to look after his kids without checking their backgrounds and evidently without getting to know them - all Because those kids are second priority in his life after business and his own ego.

 

This man is not a fit father by any stretch. Personally for me at this point, Brad cannot even be redeemed. It's gone past that.