Paternity

[Hermetically Sealed]

I do think it will be eye-rolling if EVERYONE just instantly falls prey to Will's charm...it would make Will way too much of a Mary Sue and less of a real character.

I would argue that we have already passed that point, since every adult seems to have completely abandoned common sense just to pander to Will's petulant temper tantrums. Hell, the fact that even JP has yet to set him down even once and clearly explain things to him amazes me. They all just offer drive by quips like he will figure it out on his own, when throughout the entire story he has consistently failed to do so.

 

What Will really needs is someone who won't blow smoke up his ass, patting him on the head and telling him what a good boy he is. Someone who will calmly and rationally sit with him and lead him through his possible actions and their consequences. One would think that at least one adult would have figured something as simple as that out. I mean, surely Stefan and JP have got to see the domino effect that Will going to the media would have on the rest of the family.

 

But then, as several people seem to claim, who needs believability in a "fiction" story.

 

ETA: Thinking about it, maybe Will would finally get his head screwed on straight if someone actually pointed out how much like his mother he is behaving. After all, Jeanine's plan was to take Tiffany's past to the media in order to hurt Wade when she didn't get what she wanted. Now Will is threatening to go to the media if he doesn't get what he wants. Will may get his temper from Brad, but he certainly gets his myopic deviousness from mom.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Hermetically Sealed

[rjo]

In one sense we as readers are flying blind. We can see into the minds of Will and Wade but not Brad. We can only guess what he is thinking. Maybe he needs to tell us why things have gotten out of hand.

Edited September 5, 2012 by rjo

[methodwriter85]

What Will really needs is someone who won't blow smoke up his ass, patting him on the head and telling him what a good boy he is. Someone who will calmly and rationally sit with him and lead him through his possible actions and their consequences. One would think that at least one adult would have figured something as simple as that out. I mean, surely Stefan and JP have got to see the domino effect that Will going to the media would have on the rest of the family.

 

I think Tiffany serves that function, at least when they interact. She never tells him what an amazing, mature guy he is, and she calls him out on his b.s. , especially during the Norway trip. She's not a ballbuster the way Claire is, but Tiffany usually calls them like she sees it. She comes off as someone who's really good at reading people.

 

I do believe that if and when Will gets a guy that's in it for the long haul, he needs a guy that will call him out on his bullshit, rather than someone who enables him. I can't see a Brad/Robbie dynamic ever working for him- Will would need a guy who acted and felt like an equal partner.

Edited September 5, 2012 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

I think Tiffany serves that function, at least when they interact. She never tells him what an amazing, mature guy he is, and she calls him out on his b.s. , especially during the Norway trip. She's not a ballbuster the way Claire is, but Tiffany usually calls them like she sees it. She comes off as someone who's really good at reading peope.

 

I do believe that if and when Will gets a guy that's in it for the long haul, he needs a guy that will call him out on his bullshit, rather than someone who enables him. I can't see a Brad/Robbie dynamic ever working for him- Will would need a guy who acted and felt like an equal partner.

 

Hermetically Sealed nailed just about everything I've been trying to point out about Will.

 

Tiffany may be a ball buster of sorts, but JP is supposed to be the head-of-family sage and he would certainly see Will's petulance for what it is.

 

And Will will NOT want an equal partner. He might say he does, he might think he does, but he is a worse control freak than Brad.

[methodwriter85]

I think though that if Will wound up with a pushover, he'd get bored. Note that the guy he got the most hung-up on was Tony, who doesn't really fall at his feet. He wants a challenge. I see him ending up with someone who can call him on his bullshit and keep him grounded, the way Andy ended up with Angie in Cross-Currents.

[BeysJoshersLepton V2]

Small point just to play devils advocate, how is Wills manipulating everyone agaisnt Darius any different then JJ running to mum? I remember Will getting really annoyed at JJ over that, really indignant yet its just a different tactic really to what Will was doing. The point being hes still game playing and Mark you still manage to keep me undecided on him don't stop lol. To bad JJ picked the wrong team while Will picked the big guns. A small part of me at the same time feels sorry for Will because he does actually think hes so hard done by. He really does think hes treated unfairly, he really does think hes getting the raw end of the deal, he actually thinks Brad and Robbie are bad parents. Personally I am more annoyed at Robbie for being such a doormat, if my partners child (our child) treated me with as much disdain and disinterest as Will i'd be alot more hurt. Remember they are raising _there_ children together this isn't Brad's Son its there son. I think it touches a nerve considering how close I am to my non-bio mum.

 

Personally I think this is the problem and I'm not sure if I've touched on it before but the last part of the previous chapter highlights it again. I fear Will is deeply deeply lonely, he had this relationship with his dad which he now sees as ruined till he can be in his own right "a man" again. He thinks emancipation will make him free, give him equal ground. Thing is you're never on equal ground with parents, its always some dynamic. We can reach a freindship in adulthood, but they are still our parents a role we can try to see as biology but means so much at an intrapersonal level be it in love or hate. I've been trying to finish writing this for ages now, its been sitting on an open tab whilst I read/write/listen to other stuff so i'm forgetting loads.

[centexhairysub]

I think that several people have called Will on his actions, not just Brad. Claire, Tiffany, Jeff, and JJ have all called Will to task at times for a multitude reasons. The problem with that is both they and Will know that no matter what he has done, Brad and to some extent Robbie have behaved worse than Will has. I am not going to argue the point with those that seem to believe Brad is a saint and Will is Satan incarnate, neither is true...

 

My issue is that Will is behaving in my opinion more maturely, especially over the last six or eight chapters of this story, than Brad has been. Brad's win at all cost attitude and some of the decisions he has made are for me just indefensible. Will has made mistakes but he is suppose to be the one making mistakes, learning, and growing; yet Brad seems to be making more mistakes and worse ones to me.

 

Will isn't mature and ready to really run his whole life; the problem is that Brad clearly isn't either...

[centexhairysub]

Personally I think this is the problem and I'm not sure if I've touched on it before but the last part of the previous chapter highlights it again. I fear Will is deeply deeply lonely, he had this relationship with his dad which he now sees as ruined till he can be in his own right "a man" again. He thinks emancipation will make him free, give him equal ground. Thing is you're never on equal ground with parents, its always some dynamic. We can reach a freindship in adulthood, but they are still our parents a role we can try to see as biology but means so much at an intrapersonal level be it in love or hate. I've been trying to finish writing this for ages now, its been sitting on an open tab whilst I read/write/listen to other stuff so i'm forgetting loads.

 

This is so well said and so right to the point....

[rjo]

I agree with both of you. More than anyone Will misses that close relationship with Brad. Brad has Robbie, but Will has or had Brad. Emancipation will only make Will more lonely. It won't heal the rift. It may make it even worse. It makes you want to shake both Brad and Will to show them what is happening.

 

Why do we care so much about these two fictious characters? Even those who have opposite viewpoints still agree and share a passion about this story. Why? Maybe it's not the characters, Will or Brad but the relationship between fathers and sons. That bond which starts at birth and death can only break. A bond which all of us have had in one form or another. It is something we can all relate too. That is the reason the passions are so strong and our feelings so intense.

[methodwriter85]

And for me, as someone who isn't bonded to his father, I like how JJ's an example of someone who doesn't have a strong paternal bond to either of his dads.

[Mark Arbour]

I would argue that we have already passed that point, since every adult seems to have completely abandoned common sense just to pander to Will's petulant temper tantrums. Hell, the fact that even JP has yet to set him down even once and clearly explain things to him amazes me. They all just offer drive by quips like he will figure it out on his own, when throughout the entire story he has consistently failed to do so.

 

What Will really needs is someone who won't blow smoke up his ass, patting him on the head and telling him what a good boy he is. Someone who will calmly and rationally sit with him and lead him through his possible actions and their consequences. One would think that at least one adult would have figured something as simple as that out. I mean, surely Stefan and JP have got to see the domino effect that Will going to the media would have on the rest of the family.

 

But then, as several people seem to claim, who needs believability in a "fiction" story.

 

ETA: Thinking about it, maybe Will would finally get his head screwed on straight if someone actually pointed out how much like his mother he is behaving. After all, Jeanine's plan was to take Tiffany's past to the media in order to hurt Wade when she didn't get what she wanted. Now Will is threatening to go to the media if he doesn't get what he wants. Will may get his temper from Brad, but he certainly gets his myopic deviousness from mom.

 

Hermetically Sealed nailed just about everything I've been trying to point out about Will.

 

Tiffany may be a ball buster of sorts, but JP is supposed to be the head-of-family sage and he would certainly see Will's petulance for what it is.

 

And Will will NOT want an equal partner. He might say he does, he might think he does, but he is a worse control freak than Brad.

 

You guys have clearly never raised a high spirited teenaged male. I picture you as those crotchety guys who go to family restaurants then bitch when the kids at the next table are rowdy, or cry.

[Daddydavek]

If their profiles are correct, Pvt. Tim and Herm. Sealed are 35 & 36 and from my perspective, coming to grips with the hard fact that their "twenties" (e.g. their best years) are behind them. Somehow their lack of empathy for the character of Will as written, seems to reflect more on them than on the believability of the character. Their castigation of the rest of the CAP family for failing to see things their way is particularly revealing of their own arrogance. The story is not finished. The insights into the stances of the family have yet to be fully explained. And further, that may never happen. Life is not always fully explicable.

 

I particularly agree that raising a "high spirited" teenager is an experience that can be daunting. Balancing trying to guide them while keeping them under some modicum of control without actually breaking their spirit is a journey without guideposts. Parenting is a behavior modification skill. Successive approximations are employed. Some work. Some do not. But you keep trying. That is my main gripe with the character of Brad. His approach of total control and final say in all matters is just doomed to failure. It wouldn't have worked with J.P raising him and it certainly isn't working with his raising Will. That he is blockheaded and can't see that simple fact as of yet is why he has lost the support of his family. Will is a work in progress going through the teen years. The adults sometimes forget that they are still a work in progress as well. Age doesn't always bring wisdom but if you cannot apply your experience, life surely will be difficult.

[PrivateTim]

You guys have clearly never raised a high spirited teenaged male. I picture you as those crotchety guys who go to family restaurants then bitch when the kids at the next table are rowdy, or cry.

 

I've raised a teen as you know and what Will has done was not "high spirited." High spirited is drinking a little, smoking a few j's, maybe crashing mom's Jag, but it isn't naked pole dances with ejaculation when you are 13, drugging a parent, stealing $20k, destroying two cars and tens of thousands of dollars worth of clothing and the rest. That is all well beyond "high spirited" and is some who needs more supervision and guidance, not less.

 

Can you really picture me at a family restaurant?

 

If their profiles are correct, Pvt. Tim and Herm. Sealed are 35 & 36 and from my perspective, coming to grips with the hard fact that their "twenties" (e.g. their best years) are behind them. Somehow their lack of empathy for the character of Will as written, seems to reflect more on them than on the believability of the character.

 

Save the pop psychology for your time on Dr. Phil.

[MJ85]

If I was Dave, I'd be saying, "I rest my case," right there.

[methodwriter85]

I don't see a person's 20's as their best years. My twenties suck. I'm totally looking forward to being 35- you're old enough to have some perspective on life, but still young enough to have some major fun. *sigh* I wish I was Private Tim's age...I could've had so much fun going to college in the '90s, before colleges started getting all obsessed with treating college students like children. Although from what I understand, the best party years in colleges were the 70's and the 80's.

 

Is it true that colleges used to sell beer on campus back in the early '80s, Mark? That would have never happened during my era. (Mid/late-2000's.)

Edited September 7, 2012 by methodwriter85

[BeysJoshersLepton V2]

You don't have a bar on campus? We've got multiple ones . I don't see any years being best years, each decade brings with it unique challenges and joys. If you want real Dr. Phil pop psych it says alot more that people perceive there best years behind them or long for the future.

[Canuk]

I can't imagine a Campus without a bar - we had at least two, perhaps three.... it's a while ago now! At least a bar on campus resolved the issue of drink-driving! I have to agree that the 70's (late, I am not THAT old) were a great time to be in tertiary education - you still thought like a child but were treated as an adult - for me at least it was a perfect place to "grow up".

[GLH]

Having grown up just a stone's throw from Southern Illinois University-Carbondale, I had the pleasure of patronizing "The Strip", as well as attending a few of the citywide Halloween 'celebrations'. SIU-C held the distinction of being the number one party school for many years starting in the 70's and the students went well above and beyond the call of duty to maintain that title. These days nightlife seems a bit tame in comparison.

[mmike1969]

Show me one instance where Brad/Robbie has "raised" their kids...

 

Hell show me Any of these adults raising their own kids.

[Daddydavek]

Show me one instance where Brad/Robbie has "raised" their kids...

 

Hell show me Any of these adults raising their own kids.

 

Since Will really loves his dad, I suspect that Brad did more than just teach him how to surf......

[rjo]

I am not sure if this is the form to bring this concern, but seeing that Brad is considered by many unredeemable, the thought came to mind that Brad and maybe Robbie could be at the WTC or on the place which hit one of the buildings that day. It would bring a great deal of drama. The reason for both of them on the plane or in the building is that I can't see Robbie doing well, without Brad. It would be a blessing in someways that both of them died together.

Edited September 8, 2012 by rjo

[GLH]

Given that Brad and Robbie seldom mix with common folk, I don't see them flying commercial, even if it was first class. Frankly, I see far too much drama to be derived from an adversarial Brad/Will relationship, so I don't see their untimely demise happening. Although I don't think Brad is redeemable in his current state, an epiphany and reconciliation would make for plenty of dramatic fodder, too.

Edited September 8, 2012 by GLH

[methodwriter85]

Well, they actually do mix with common folk pretty frequently, but they'd never fly commercial. I also can't see Mark killing off Brad, but then again you never know...

 

They've got 10 months to go 'til 9/11...

 

As for Brad and Robbie and parenting...I was hoping Brad had learned from what happened to Billy that overly permissive parenting never works, but he didn't. And when he realized the end result of overly permissive parenting- having a kid who refuses to hear the world no- it was too late to be able to change tactics. If Will does get the emancipation, Brad and Robbie are basically done as parents, because JJ is basically being raised by Tiffany and his coaches. Which is frankly, probably better for JJ than having Brad and Robbie be too involved.

 

I really, really hope that Matt and Wade will be better parents. I also can't see Tiffany allowing Riley to pull half of the shit that Will said to Jeanine.

Edited September 8, 2012 by methodwriter85

[centexhairysub]

Bravo........ The new chapter is up and is really a feel good one...

[Mark Arbour]

Well, they actually do mix with common folk pretty frequently, but they'd never fly commercial. I also can't see Mark killing off Brad, but then again you never know...

 

They've got 10 months to go 'til 9/11...

 

As for Brad and Robbie and parenting...I was hoping Brad had learned from what happened to Billy that overly permissive parenting never works, but he didn't. And when he realized the end result of overly permissive parenting- having a kid who refuses to hear the world no- it was too late to be able to change tactics. If Will does get the emancipation, Brad and Robbie are basically done as parents, because JJ is basically being raised by Tiffany and his coaches. Which is frankly, probably better for JJ than having Brad and Robbie be too involved.

 

I really, really hope that Matt and Wade will be better parents. I also can't see Tiffany allowing Riley to pull half of the shit that Will said to Jeanine.

 

Overly permissive parenting: where did you get your expertise? You are clueless.