methodwriter85 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) Because even sans money, I know what it's like to have parents that don't ever tell you the word "no", and the utter lack of boundaries you develop as a result because you think you can do anything without suffering any real consequences for them? Are you seriously going to tell me that you think Brad and Robbie DIDN'T give their kids a childhood in which they could do whatever they wanted because the word "no" wasn't in their category? There's absolutely no indication in the way in which Brad and Robbie interact with their kids that they did otherwise. Anyway, back to the chapter...I really think the emancipation will wind up being a good thing for Brad and Will. Brad is no longer the authority figure for Will to rebel against, meaning Brad and Will can go back to being friends again; at the same time, Will is now responsible for his own actions, meaning there's no more teenaged angst about his parents holding him back. Edited September 9, 2012 by methodwriter85 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Arbour Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) Because even sans money, I know what it's like to have parents that don't ever tell you the word "no", and the utter lack of boundaries you develop as a result because you think you can do anything without suffering any real consequences for them? Are you seriously going to tell me that you think Brad and Robbie DIDN'T give their kids a childhood in which they could do whatever they wanted because the word "no" wasn't in their category? There's absolutely no indication in the way in which Brad and Robbie interact with their kids that they did otherwise. Anyway, back to the chapter...I really think the emancipation will wind up being a good thing for Brad and Will. Brad is no longer the authority figure for Will to rebel against, meaning Brad and Will can go back to being friends again; at the same time, Will is now responsible for his own actions, meaning there's no more teenaged angst about his parents holding him back. I think that your over-generalizations, your hopeless fixation with behavioralism, and this concept that parents must constantly assert their authority over their kids, were probably wonderful philosophies back in the late 1940s-mid 1950s. They are useless today. That's because raising kids with a standard playbook ignores the individual, and all kids are different. I don't think that Brad and Robbie have to say "no" to their kids at all. I think that what they try to do at a basic level is to foster the interests of their sons, and help them pursue things that stimulate them (and their minds). I'm not saying they're perfect parents (I certainly didn't write them that way), but permissiveness isn't their flaw, as I see it. I suppose they could have followed the pattern of Mr. Martin, and had children who were very respectful and docile, and voiced no real opinions or had any real disciplinary issues. There are people in the forum who think that's how children should be raised, and should behave. Kids like that grow up to be wonderful drones, afraid to voice their own opinions, to assert themselves, and to take risks. I think they make wonderful factory workers. In this case, you have bright kids, especially with Will, and the bright kids are usually the toughest to handle. They're smart enough not to buy into the bullshit, and they're insulted with the standard "because I told you so" response of martinets. I think that's the big problem that WIll has, in that he thinks he deserves better answers, and he thinks he has the right to voice an opinion, about matters that directly concern him. Brad's issue, IMHO, isn't that he didn't crack down on Will, it's that he doesn't communicate with him very well, and he hasn't been very consistent. One minute, he's spouting the "my way or the highway" storyline, while the next, he's caving when he realizes that simply won't work. If Brad had treated Will more like JP treated Brad when he was growing up (by taking him under his wing and recognizing that he was trying to develop into his own person, and by trying to foster that process along), I think that Will's jump into young adulthood would have been much smoother for all of them. As it is, i agree with you in that I think now that Will is emancipated, Brad will be forced to treat him like he should have treated him in the first place, and I think removing the control aspect from their relationship will make them much closer. What Brad will probably find out is that he'll have more influence over Will than he did before, just by asking and suggesting, rather than commanding and dictating. Edited September 9, 2012 by Mark Arbour 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methodwriter85 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) Thank you sir, may I have another? I don't know. I guess a lot of times, I think that I probably would have had an easier time with my teens and transitioning into my twenties if my parents had been better with the discipline. At the same time, the fact that I was pretty much free to develop whatever my interests were probably allowed me to become the bright, dynamic young man with a multitude of interests that you know and love today, Mark. So I see your point. Edited September 9, 2012 by methodwriter85 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjo Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) Will is now going to have to weigh his actions. If he is an adult he must act like an adult. He will sink or swim. With all that said, I am shocked at Brad's reaction. He seems to have transformed again. I had all but given up on him. Even saying he and Robbie should die in 9 11. Now after this I am sorry I wanted them died. I am sure Will is going to have problems along the way. More Drama, but he is made of strong stock. As for Brad and Will, I agree completely when you take the control out of the picture, their relationship can return to normal. The healing can begin and the love between them can show itself. I wonder if you may have changed this chapter, maybe there was a different outcome before revision? Edited September 9, 2012 by rjo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ85 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 This chapter seemed kind of... Anti-climactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westie Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 As for Brad and Robbie and parenting...I was hoping Brad had learned from what happened to Billy that overly permissive parenting never works, but he didn't. And when he realized the end result of overly permissive parenting- having a kid who refuses to hear the world no- it was too late to be able to change tactics. If Will does get the emancipation, Brad and Robbie are basically done as parents, because JJ is basically being raised by Tiffany and his coaches. Which is frankly, probably better for JJ than having Brad and Robbie be too involved. I really, really hope that Matt and Wade will be better parents. I also can't see Tiffany allowing Riley to pull half of the shit that Will said to Jeanine. Billy got the same parenting as Ace, Brad and Claire. I'm not sure what you mean by "never works" as from the evidence, "that kind" of parenting works in 3/4 cases. I say "that kind" because I think your categorisation of JP as overly permissive with Billy is off base. Those kids got a lot of freedom, but it was with the expectations of responsibility. Privilege was granted only through living up to those expectations. An example of this was when Brad got a car, but Ace didn't because his grades weren't good enough. The "rewards and remedy" technique is recognised as a highly successful form of behaviour management and is used both with children and animals the world over. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddydavek Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 This chapter seemed kind of... Anti-climactic. After all the drama, shouting, arguing, scheming and planning, I can see where the latest chapter did strike some as anti-climactic. However, I think it was somewhat expected on my part. Brad is hardheaded, but he does love his son and I think like most parents he worries that Will is too much like him and lord knows Brad didn't always have an easy time of it. Therefore he wants to protect Will, even from himself. Working through all that and dealing with the fact that Will would not be coddled took him some time but eventually he had his "aha" moment and smelled the coffee. The chapter had some interesting tidbits in it too. Brad's assertion that the emancipation would not have happened unless he agreed to it was explained along with Brad's confidence that Will would not go public. Also, Brad revealed to Will that Robbie wasn't as upset with Will as he was trying to be supportive of Brad until he worked through it. Will even tweaked his dad and mouthed off that it's a good thing he had someone so understanding and it worked to break some ice between them. The road trip was really masterfully crafted. It explained things without going into a bunch of psyco-babble details like I probably would have. I was really impressed with it. Brad also likes the drama and played the scene in court about like I expected and shocked the shit out of everyone, probably even his lawyer. Don't think for a moment that he didn't relish doing that. The interesting thing about the characters in the CAP saga is that most of them are smart as whips. They don't suffer fools gladly. It sure keeps the story interesting. Mark has indicated the cupboard is now bare and I think he wonders where to go forward at this point. My guess he will focus on Wade and watch him deal with the fallout of his mother's latest machination and deal with the accusation that he made an obscene amount of money off the land deal at the expense of others. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Arbour Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 After all the drama, shouting, arguing, scheming and planning, I can see where the latest chapter did strike some as anti-climactic. However, I think it was somewhat expected on my part. Brad is hardheaded, but he does love his son and I think like most parents he worries that Will is too much like him and lord knows Brad didn't always have an easy time of it. Therefore he wants to protect Will, even from himself. Working through all that and dealing with the fact that Will would not be coddled took him some time but eventually he had his "aha" moment and smelled the coffee. The chapter had some interesting tidbits in it too. Brad's assertion that the emancipation would not have happened unless he agreed to it was explained along with Brad's confidence that Will would not go public. Also, Brad revealed to Will that Robbie wasn't as upset with Will as he was trying to be supportive of Brad until he worked through it. Will even tweaked his dad and mouthed off that it's a good thing he had someone so understanding and it worked to break some ice between them. The road trip was really masterfully crafted. It explained things without going into a bunch of psyco-babble details like I probably would have. I was really impressed with it. Brad also likes the drama and played the scene in court about like I expected and shocked the shit out of everyone, probably even his lawyer. Don't think for a moment that he didn't relish doing that. The interesting thing about the characters in the CAP saga is that most of them are smart as whips. They don't suffer fools gladly. It sure keeps the story interesting. Mark has indicated the cupboard is now bare and I think he wonders where to go forward at this point. My guess he will focus on Wade and watch him deal with the fallout of his mother's latest machination and deal with the accusation that he made an obscene amount of money off the land deal at the expense of others. Hey you! Get out of my mind! You remind me of Paya. :-) Great comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewri Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Okay, this chapter was way too soft and easy. Unicorns and rainbows are just a smokescreen for some real drama to come. Little 14 year old Will thinks he has it under control but he's going to find that playing with the big boys can get rough. Brad is giving him his freedom but we all know it's not that simple. Come on Mark, hit us with the good stuff. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westie Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Hey you! Get out of my mind! You remind me of Paya. :-) Great comments. Not sure I'm reminded of Paya... But there again I have other things to remind me of him ;-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ85 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I still think it's way too convenient for Brad to cave, and suddenly everyone's happy and satisfied. It just doesn't feel completely right. But then again...we're forgetting about Jeanine. One has to think that in her state, she's not going to just take this news lying down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermetically Sealed Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I don't think that Brad and Robbie have to say "no" to their kids at all. I think that what they try to do at a basic level is to foster the interests of their sons, and help them pursue things that stimulate them (and their minds). I'm not saying they're perfect parents (I certainly didn't write them that way), but permissiveness isn't their flaw, as I see it. I suppose they could have followed the pattern of Mr. Martin, and had children who were very respectful and docile, and voiced no real opinions or had any real disciplinary issues. There are people in the forum who think that's how children should be raised, and should behave. Kids like that grow up to be wonderful drones, afraid to voice their own opinions, to assert themselves, and to take risks. I think they make wonderful factory workers. I would also say that the kids did get some sort of boundaries, it was just Jeanine, rather than Brad and Robbie who provided it (hence the friction with Will). And I take exception that second part. I was one such kid, but certainly am anything but docile as an adult. Especially towards my parents. Although, I will say that most of why I kept out of trouble was because it never made sense to get into it in the first place, and I got to watch my sisters screw up ahead of me to figure out the whole cause and consequence things. Sometimes it pays to be the youngest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westie Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I still think it's way too convenient for Brad to cave, and suddenly everyone's happy and satisfied. It just doesn't feel completely right. But then again...we're forgetting about Jeanine. One has to think that in her state, she's not going to just take this news lying down... Don't be fooled by one chapter. At the end of Will's Hawaiian adventure he was back and "everyone's happy" - that didn't last long. When you are trying to build bridges and mend fences (and mix metaphors) you make a concerted effort. That doesn't last long. As for jeanine - I think there would be more drama in the story if she wasn't angry. She is no match for Will and I hate to see a one sided fight - there might be more mileage (and lets face it, comedy value) if she feels ashamed of what she has done and tries to rebuild a relationship with Will. I'd love to see his reaction to his mother spending quality time with him suddenly ;-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methodwriter85 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) I have a theory that Jeanine is a paranoid schizophrenic- it didn't manifest itself until after she had Wil(she was only in her early 20's when she had Will, right?), and Jeanine kept it secret. As we saw from what happened with Dr. Martin, Brad and Robbie aren't exactly diligent about background searches, and I bet that as the mother of their child Jeanine got the benefit of the doubt and they didn't pry into her personal business. Then when she got pregnant, Jeanine went off her medication and it's no longer effective, hence explaining her behavior. Edited September 10, 2012 by methodwriter85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmike1969 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) I have a better theory! Maybe she is just an evil person and meds are just an excuse for her erratic behavior Do you really think Tonto would hire someone that she knew was on meds to take care of her grand kids? Edited September 10, 2012 by mmike1969 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methodwriter85 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) That's why I'm guessing it manifested AFTER she had Will- she was young enough when she had Will that the schizophrenia could have manifested after. By that point they would have completely trusted her and not pried too much into her business. Edited September 10, 2012 by methodwriter85 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjo Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Marie hired Jeanine not Tonto. She was from New Jersey. I agree with Jeremy it developed sometime after Will was born. Maybe the stress of the new baby brought it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B1ue Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 And Marie's primary criterion for a new hire was probably "can I hit that?" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methodwriter85 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Well, schizophrenia medication is usually bad for a pregnancy so I could see Jeanine stopping her meds, which would explain why Jeanine started to go crazy during the pregnancy with Madison because I really don't think this is just post-partum depression. It's seriously coming off like paranoid schizophrenia, with Jeanine believing Will is out to get her. And Jeanine being a hot 22-year old lesbian probably wasn't a bad thing for Marie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ85 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) Well, schizophrenia medication is usually bad for a pregnancy so I could see Jeanine stopping her meds, which would explain why Jeanine started to go crazy during the pregnancy with Madison because I really don't think this is just post-partum depression. I'd think it probably is more than just PPD too, but my thought is, throw in the electroshock therapy also screwing with her head and basically...all bets are off. For all we know, this could be some kind of crazy that's basically uncharted territory or that otherwise doesn't neatly fit into a single diagnosable disorder. Edited September 11, 2012 by MJ85 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrivateTim Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Wasn't Jeanine pretty normal until she and Tiffany started having problems? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeysJoshersLepton V2 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I'd be very surprised if she was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. While we don't know her internal thought processes, speech patterns seem normal. Her behaviour isn't consistent with the paranoid archatype either, no visual clues of hypervigilence. The Will aspect is more control then knowing what hes up to sedate paranoia, I think that was highlighted with her manipulation of Brad. The grandiose sense of self-worth however may show a skewing of reality, but at the time was it justified? I also thought she was "normal" till Tiffany and her started to develop problems. I'm also going to throw in and defend ECT, it isn't 'One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest' anymore when used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westie Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I have a theory that Jeanine is a paranoid schizophrenic- it didn't manifest itself until after she had Wil(she was only in her early 20's when she had Will, right?), and Jeanine kept it secret. As we saw from what happened with Dr. Martin, Brad and Robbie aren't exactly diligent about background searches, and I bet that as the mother of their child Jeanine got the benefit of the doubt and they didn't pry into her personal business. Then when she got pregnant, Jeanine went off her medication and it's no longer effective, hence explaining her behavior. Just a few points; the first being that mental illness can and does manifest at any time in life. There are a million possible diagnosis' of which schizophrenia is only one... But she doesn't in my view fit with the profile for that illness. You should also remember that Brad had nothing to do with the original hiring of Jeanine. She was hired by Marie and if she at least had not done a background check, I'm very sure JP would have done at the time. I think you are creating drama here where none (needs to) exist. Mental health issues are bad enough without having to have dark secrets lurking in the background. It is entirely possible that a 14 year history of undiagnosed mental illness (I would assume starting with post partum depression after having Will), has escalated through to some obsessive disorder (hence her pushy behaviour with JJ's career). I think her treatment of will is probably more due to her obsessive need for JJ to succeed at all costs, and her mis-perception that JJ has to be "happy" all the time in order to succeed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddydavek Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) "There are a million possible diagnosis' of which schizophrenia is only one..." DSM-IV provides a multitude of possibilities but not anywhere close to a million. The newer version provides even a few less. Mental illness is never easy to describe, define or diagnose as more than a hundred years of applied science has shown. I think the author has plenty of room to take his presentation of Jeanine in any direction he wants without any fear of being constrained by a common understanding of the dynamics of her disease. However, I disagree with Westie as I don't see a compulsive disorder per se. There was too much depression described in the story thus far for a compulsive disorder to be the first or primary Axis 1 diagnosis. Edited September 12, 2012 by Daddydavek 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methodwriter85 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I think you are creating drama here where none (needs to) exist. Mental health issues are bad enough without having to have dark secrets lurking in the background. It is entirely possible that a 14 year history of undiagnosed mental illness (I would assume starting with post partum depression after having Will), has escalated through to some obsessive disorder (hence her pushy behaviour with JJ's career). I think her treatment of will is probably more due to her obsessive need for JJ to succeed at all costs, and her mis-perception that JJ has to be "happy" all the time in order to succeed. This is a soap opera. Drama and dark secrets are usually a pretty big part of that. That said, I like your theory better- as Jeanine became a more obsessive stage mom determined to keep JJ happy and in the spotlight, any obstacles to such became a problem that needed to be neutralized, such as Will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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