9.11

[PrivateTim]

Based on the latest chapter of 9-11, I am so glad Tony has to be in NY next month to meet with his financial advisors at Cantor Fitz.

 

Here is an interesting point to ponder......  does Will's satisfaction with Tony as a sex partner get in the way of a potential relationship with not just Kai, but anyone else as a future partner/spouse and at the next level of pondering, does it then give credence to the notion that promiscuity and sex before marriage are bad? Not bad on a moral level, which would be "it is bad just because we say it is bad", but on a practical level?

 

It is slightly encouraging that Claire is worried about Marie, but surely if Claire is who we all thought she was, why hasn't she called Will to apologize about excluding Noah? If she is who we thought she was, while being disappointed in how Will chose to approach the exclusion of Noah, she would surely have seen by now that her own actions were wrong (back to that pesky Golden Rule) and taken the first step to restore her and Will's relationship and then worry about how the rift between Will and Marie is going to effect the family.

 

So it is one thing for Claire in conversations with Isidore to feel badly about what has happened with Will and to be worried about Marie, but it is another to acknowledge that publicly or even to acknowledge it to JP, who is still smarting over the fact that Claire and Marie didn't go to Claremont for the dedication. It will be interesting to see if the Claire we'd grown used to and thoughts was the heir apparent to JP will reemerge.

[methodwriter85]

 

Ok, enough with Will and Tony. Will needs to act like the emancipated adult he's become. If he needs a Tony, then he'll the kind of person that Tony became. Relationships are not all about fireworks and Will's search for the 'perfect' relationship is getting old.

 

    I don't think Will's searching for the "perfect" relationship, but I do think he's searching for a guy that Will can have a real relationship AND have that insane sexual chemistry with. In any event, Will's a sophomore in high school- I'm willing to forgive him for wanting a "fireworks" kind of relationship instead of something like Max and Father Tim. If he were 27 and still bitching about this, I'd be far more annoyed with him.

 

   Although, if we're going with the general CAP rules, by 27 Will should have a husband(as people are now much more likely to say "husband" over "life partner) and at least one son that he procured courtesy of having a threesome with a normally-lesbian woman. I can't see Will becoming the anti-family type that Marcel was/is, and what I can see JJ becoming. Darius will probably have three kids, rounding out that generation.

 

    Finally, while nice, stabile relationships are nice to watch in real life, they're pretty boring to read about in a soap opera, so I'm not really counting on Will to stay in a relationship that isn't full of fireworks for too long.

Edited August 3, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

 

 

Here is an interesting point to ponder......  does Will's satisfaction with Tony as a sex partner get in the way of a potential relationship with not just Kai, but anyone else as a future partner/spouse and at the next level of pondering, does it then give credence to the notion that promiscuity and sex before marriage are bad? Not bad on a moral level, which would be "it is bad just because we say it is bad", but on a practical level?

 

 

Interesting thought.

 

No.  I think that premise is based on the theory that you're better off not knowing what great sex is, so if you don't have it, you're fine with that.  I'm not saying that sex is everything in a relationship, far from it, but I have a general antipathy for ignorance (using that word in a non-pejorative way, but to indicate a general lack of knowledge), and in this case, I think it's better to know what is possible, than to be satisfied with what is available.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Mark Arbour

[Daddydavek]

I think Pvt. Tim's post above about Claire raises some valid points.

 

However, based on my reading of the story so far and of Isidore's comments to JP in the current chpater, Marie appears to be a handful for Claire and I somehow get the impression that mommy Claire might have spoiled Marie more than a bit too much over the years and now is suffering the consequences.  

 

The dinner party where JP plans to announce the divorce should be fun as I suspect that is only part of it and the real drama will be between Will, Brad and Stef.  (Just guessing.)

[mmike1969]

What exactly do rich families dine on when you announce you are getting a divorce? Dessert is part of the dinner right?

 

I get Isidore's wish to call Frank her husband but now how is she going to explain her "son" Brad marring her step-son Robbie while still living in the same house as her ex-husband and his gay "partner"?

 

And how many napkins are going to get tossed on the table this time? Do you toss the napkin and then stand up to leave or do you stand then toss the napkin?

Edited August 4, 2013 by mmike1969

[PrivateTim]

    I don't think Will's searching for the "perfect" relationship, but I do think he's searching for a guy that Will can have a real relationship AND have that insane sexual chemistry with. In any event, Will's a sophomore in high school- I'm willing to forgive him for wanting a "fireworks" kind of relationship instead of something like Max and Father Tim. If he were 27 and still bitching about this, I'd be far more annoyed with him.

 

   Although, if we're going with the general CAP rules, by 27 Will should have a husband(as people are now much more likely to say "husband" over "life partner) and at least one son that he procured courtesy of having a threesome with a normally-lesbian woman. I can't see Will becoming the anti-family type that Marcel was/is, and what I can see JJ becoming. Darius will probably have three kids, rounding out that generation.

 

    Finally, while nice, stabile relationships are nice to watch in real life, they're pretty boring to read about in a soap opera, so I'm not really counting on Will to stay in a relationship that isn't full of fireworks for too long.

 

Will is not yet a sophomore in high school, nor is he 15 yet and he is approaching 30 different sexual partners already. I don't know a single, mainstream psychologist or psychiatrist who would think that is normal or healthy for a 14 year old. Will needs friends he can rely on more than he needs sexual partners.

 

I don't think most people are looking for Will to find his love now, settle down now and enter relationship bliss at 14, but there is a lot more to life than flitting from one sexual encounter to the next. Right now Wade is the only person that we can really say is a friend who is in Will's life. Ryan might be a friend still but is out of the picture because he is back in L.A. And despite Will's blowing up the family over Noah not being invited to the party, we haven't seen Will having any contact with Noah. Is that because Noah isn't a potential sexual partner?

 

Here is a scary calculator.

 

How many people have you slept with

 

No.  I think that premise is based on the theory that you're better off not knowing what great sex is, so if you don't have it, you're fine with that.  I'm not saying that sex is everything in a relationship, far from it, but I have a general antipathy for ignorance (using that word in a non-pejorative way, but to indicate a general lack of knowledge), and in this case, I think it's better to know what is possible, than to be satisfied with what is available.

 

I think you have it wrong. You are better off being satisfied with what you have, then always looking for something better. If Tony "rocks" his world sexually, what's to say there isn't someone even better? If you don't keep trying with guy after guy after guy you will always be ignorant (have a lack of knowledge) of how good they are in bed?

 

I would also challenge that "ignorance" as you seem to be defining it isn't always bad. For example, I am ignorant of what it is like to be the son of an alcoholic, abusive father; I am ignorant of what it is like to have a leg blown off; I am ignorant of what it is like to inject heroin into my veins. I don't feel my lack of knowledge (ignorance) of these things is bad. Acquiring direct knowledge that is potentially bad or harmful to you isn't a good thing. I didn't need to experience first hand putting my hand on the hot stove to know it was going to be bad.

 

But back on the topic of Will specifically, should he be with a partner who can give him great sex, but nothing else? No loyalty? No trust? No commitment? What we like isn't always healthy for us.

Edited August 4, 2013 by PrivateTim

[B1ue]

I think you have it wrong. You are better off being satisfied with what you have, then always looking for something better. If Tony "rocks" his world sexually, what's to say there isn't someone even better? If you don't keep trying with guy after guy after guy you will always be ignorant (have a lack of knowledge) of how good they are in bed?

 

I would also challenge that "ignorance" as you seem to be defining it isn't always bad. For example, I am ignorant of what it is like to be the son of an alcoholic, abusive father; I am ignorant of what it is like to have a leg blown off; I am ignorant of what it is like to inject heroin into my veins. I don't feel my lack of knowledge (ignorance) of these things is bad. Acquiring direct knowledge that is potentially bad or harmful to you isn't a good thing. I didn't need to experience first hand putting my hand on the hot stove to know it was going to be bad.

 

But back on the topic of Will specifically, should he be with a partner who can give him great sex, but nothing else? No loyalty? No trust? No commitment? What we like isn't always healthy for us.

 

I would question your underlying assumptions here. What is "better" as you use it here? Do you mean Will would be happier if he learned to settle? Well, I can certainly agree with that, but first Will needs to know what exactly he is willing to settle for. Your ending list of loyalty, trust, commitment, may be what you, may even be what the majority seek, but that's not necessarily what Will wants or needs. How do we know that Will truly needs one big relationship, akin to a marriage for lack of a better concept, rather than a series of consensually casual encounters, sort of like Cody. There's trade-off to that lifestyle, but there's trade-offs to any lifestyle, including marriage bliss. It would be deeply ironic if Will turned out to prefer a casual approach, considering his past, but considering his trajectory through that past, it becomes less unlikely.

 

Also, if I am reading this right, you're implying that Will exploring his sexuality with a great many partners is, inherently, not a good thing. Isn't that Will's call to make? And, assuming proper safety precautions and that all relationships are entered into with consenting parties, isn't it up to Will to decide how harmful such relationships are to him? And how is he supposed to figure that out unless he experiments. Not everyone needs to do that experimentation, of course, but that's also up to Will to decide if he needs it.

 

 

Back to your original question, I don't think his enthusiasm for sex with Tony is a bad thing. It's just putting into perspective the choices he's going to have to make regarding future relationships. He's going to have to decide, is great sex the most important thing? Is the emotional aspect of a relationship really what he desires above all else? And that's not an easy question for anyone to answer, and we don't all reach the same conclusions. And, hell, many of us decide later we made the wrong choice, and some of those DO something about it. Will, at least, will be able to make an informed choice here, which many of us don't get or didn't feel we needed.

[Mark Arbour]

Will is not yet a sophomore in high school, nor is he 15 yet and he is approaching 30 different sexual partners already. I don't know a single, mainstream psychologist or psychiatrist who would think that is normal or healthy for a 14 year old. Will needs friends he can rely on more than he needs sexual partners.

 

I don't think most people are looking for Will to find his love now, settle down now and enter relationship bliss at 14, but there is a lot more to life than flitting from one sexual encounter to the next. Right now Wade is the only person that we can really say is a friend who is in Will's life. Ryan might be a friend still but is out of the picture because he is back in L.A. And despite Will's blowing up the family over Noah not being invited to the party, we haven't seen Will having any contact with Noah. Is that because Noah isn't a potential sexual partner?

 

Here is a scary calculator.

 

How many people have you slept with

 

 

 

Underlying your right-wing tendencies to rant about the general decline and lack of morals (I'm teasing here.. ), you raise a really good point (which is also usually true of you), and that is that Will seems to have rather intense friendships that don't last, or become shallow.  With Noah, he had a bond, but Noah seems to be out of the picture right now.  The same thing seems to be true with Ryan.  Most of the guys he's slept with aren't really in the picture either.  You mention Wade, who probably is Will's best friend.  I'd add to that list Brad, Stef, and JP, but they're all family members.  Also on the list of close friends would be Darius, who he seems to be back on a good plateau with, and possibly JJ, but he's really too self-absorbed to worry much about what Will does.  One other person who I'd see as a good friend of Will's is Jeff, even though we haven't seen him recently.

 

I wonder if some of this isn't due to the upheaval and jet-set pace of Will's life.  He's not in one place for long, and that makes it hard to build friendship bonds.  I'm thinking about times in life when you have significant changes (like graduating from high school or college) and move on to new challenges, and old friends inevitably get left behind.  In my experience, if the friendship is tight enough, the bonds will survive the distance and the time. 

 

I would not be surprised if Ryan and Alistair both manage to do that with Will, and depending on how this relationship works out with Kai, I can see him in that category as well.  Jeff, IMHO, is already there. 

 

 

I think you have it wrong. You are better off being satisfied with what you have, then always looking for something better. If Tony "rocks" his world sexually, what's to say there isn't someone even better? If you don't keep trying with guy after guy after guy you will always be ignorant (have a lack of knowledge) of how good they are in bed?

 

I would also challenge that "ignorance" as you seem to be defining it isn't always bad. For example, I am ignorant of what it is like to be the son of an alcoholic, abusive father; I am ignorant of what it is like to have a leg blown off; I am ignorant of what it is like to inject heroin into my veins. I don't feel my lack of knowledge (ignorance) of these things is bad. Acquiring direct knowledge that is potentially bad or harmful to you isn't a good thing. I didn't need to experience first hand putting my hand on the hot stove to know it was going to be bad.

 

But back on the topic of Will specifically, should he be with a partner who can give him great sex, but nothing else? No loyalty? No trust? No commitment? What we like isn't always healthy for us.

 

 

 

OK, I had this really wonderful response all drilled down in my brain, and then B1ue went ahead and did it for me.  But to address what you said, I largely agree with you, and I really think we're all saying the same thing.  Sex is important, but it's not everything.  But Tony has shown Will what great sex can be, and that will set the bar for future partners.  He'll be able to make any trade-offs knowing what he's leaving behind.  Would I trade loyalty, honesty, commitment, and friendship for marginally better sex in my life?  No fucking way.  14 (almost 15) year old Will may at this point, but probably wouldn't, and most likely wouldn't over the long-haul either. 

 

I was worried that the word "ignorance" would possibly spark some negative reactions, which is why I put that little disclaimer in.  I agree with you completely that ignorance is not always a bad thing.  Some allege that it is even bliss.   But it seemed to describe my sentiment, so I went for it. 

Edited August 4, 2013 by Mark Arbour

[methodwriter85]

 

I wonder if some of this isn't due to the upheaval and jet-set pace of Will's life.  He's not in one place for long, and that makes it hard to build friendship bonds.  I'm thinking about times in life when you have significant changes (like graduating from high school or college) and move on to new challenges, and old friends inevitably get left behind.  In my experience, if the friendship is tight enough, the bonds will survive the distance and the time.

 

   I think that's the likely answer. Thinking back to high school and college, high school/college friendships are based on the fact that you're around each other other all the time, but that's not really how Will rolls. Will isn't some suburban teenager who spends the summer hanging out at the local beach or the mall with his high school friends. It would then make sense that while Will has his admirers for being hot, rich, and nice, he doesn't have this "set" group of loyal friends that he always hang out with like Matt Carrswold does. The kind of intensely loyal group that people like Matt had freshman year takes a lot of time and effort to have, and it's not something that Will's all that interested in doing. Will seems to go with the idea of having a few good friends, and people he's friendly with, but being the Alpha Male of a large group of guys has never really been his deal, even though it's something he could have easily done.

 

    I always figure that's part of the reason why Will bailed on doing water polo- going beyond Will not liking the effect it was having on him, group sports require you to spend a lot of your time and energy on bonding with your teammates, as we saw with Matt Carrswold's hockey team, and I don't think that interested Will at all.

Edited August 4, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

    I always figure that's part of the reason why Will bailed on doing water polo- going beyond Will not liking the effect it was having on him, group sports require you to spend a lot of your time and energy on bonding with your teammates, as we saw with Matt Carrswold's hockey team, and I don't think that interested Will at all.

 

Oh I think Will would have been very interested in bonding with his teammates, but not in the way you're talking about.

[methodwriter85]

Oh I think Will would have been very interested in bonding with his teammates, but not in the way you're talking about.

 

Right, and that's the route you went with in regards to Matt (he's slept with a good deal of his hockey teammates), but Matt is actually into the idea of being the Alpha Male of large group of guys. Whereas Will, unless he's close to you, isn't interested in spending large amounts of time with the same people all the time.

 

I think it's interesting that Will is someone who could very easily be the Alpha Male of a large pack, but it doesn't seem to interest him at all. He's a very social guy, but he kind of flits around instead of settling in to build deep bonds. It's like Will likes the rush of an intense new relationship/friendship, but Will doesn't really do much to nuture the bond.

 

I mean, a year ago, Will and Gathan were supposed to be really tight, but I think other than a hook-up here or there, they don't seem like much of a factor in each other's lives.

Edited August 4, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

Right, and that's the route you went with in regards to Matt (he's slept with a good deal of his hockey teammates), but Matt is actually into the idea of being the Alpha Male of large group of guys. Whereas Will, unless he's close to you, isn't interested in spending large amounts of time with the same people all the time.

 

I think it's interesting that Will is someone who could very easily be the Alpha Male of a large pack, but it doesn't seem to interest him at all. He's a very social guy, but he kind of flits around instead of settling in to build deep bonds. It's like Will likes the rush of an intense new relationship/friendship, but Will doesn't really do much to nuture the bond.

 

I mean, a year ago, Will and Gathan were supposed to be really tight, but I think other than a hook-up here or there, they don't seem like much of a factor in each other's lives.

 

I'm left to wonder if that's because Will is shallow and flighty, or if it's because his life has been one constant upheaval.

[mmike1969]

I vote shallow and entitled.

[methodwriter85]

   Let's hope Will's sophomore to senior years of high school are more stable and he gets to settle down.

 

   The Kai family scenes made me sad when I thought about how Will, for all the flashy excess of his life, doesn't really get to have a normal life for the most part. I was thinking about the typical high school/college experience, when you have friends that you grow up with and hang out with all the time...when you spend your nights chatting away at the local diner and make deep bonds that way, and I realized that little stuff like that probably won't happen with Will because his life is so jet-set and frenectic.

[B1ue]

I'm left to wonder if that's because Will is shallow and flighty, or if it's because his life has been one constant upheaval.

Not so much his entire life, but his bedrock seems to be his family. He possibly doesn't feel he needs more friends than that. I confess to having that tendency, my family is so large, so chaotic, that keeping up with them in my little free time, plus having my own necessary me time (I'm a loner by nature and habit), doesn't exactly leave room for many other people. And I'm fine with that. Will is not a loner, but his best friends seem to be Wade, Brad, JP, and Stef, and any further people on top of that might be superfluous. Welcome, mind, but not really necessary for his well-being.

[methodwriter85]

 

Not so much his entire life, but his bedrock seems to be his family. He possibly doesn't feel he needs more friends than that.

 

Very true, and I like how JJ seems to be opposite of that- he knows deep down that he'll never be the star of the family like it seems like Darius and Will are, so JJ seeks out friends that he can be the star to instead. (Well, JJ's really seeking fans instead of friends, but still.) And I think Will knows that, which is why Will hit him hard with the bit that people are only friends with JJ because of him.

[PrivateTim]

I would question your underlying assumptions here. What is "better" as you use it here? Do you mean Will would be happier if he learned to settle? Well, I can certainly agree with that, but first Will needs to know what exactly he is willing to settle for. Your ending list of loyalty, trust, commitment, may be what you, may even be what the majority seek, but that's not necessarily what Will wants or needs. How do we know that Will truly needs one big relationship, akin to a marriage for lack of a better concept, rather than a series of consensually casual encounters, sort of like Cody. There's trade-off to that lifestyle, but there's trade-offs to any lifestyle, including marriage bliss. It would be deeply ironic if Will turned out to prefer a casual approach, considering his past, but considering his trajectory through that past, it becomes less unlikely.

 

Also, if I am reading this right, you're implying that Will exploring his sexuality with a great many partners is, inherently, not a good thing. Isn't that Will's call to make? And, assuming proper safety precautions and that all relationships are entered into with consenting parties, isn't it up to Will to decide how harmful such relationships are to him? And how is he supposed to figure that out unless he experiments. Not everyone needs to do that experimentation, of course, but that's also up to Will to decide if he needs it.

 

Back to your original question, I don't think his enthusiasm for sex with Tony is a bad thing. It's just putting into perspective the choices he's going to have to make regarding future relationships. He's going to have to decide, is great sex the most important thing? Is the emotional aspect of a relationship really what he desires above all else? And that's not an easy question for anyone to answer, and we don't all reach the same conclusions. And, hell, many of us decide later we made the wrong choice, and some of those DO something about it. Will, at least, will be able to make an informed choice here, which many of us don't get or didn't feel we needed.

 

Will at 14 is not mature enough to make these kinds of decisions, decisions effecting his health and psychological make-up. Don't misunderstand what emancipation means. It means he can sign contracts to rent an apartment, buy a house, get a job etc. It does not change the laws on who he can have sex with, whether or not he can drink, whether or not he can drive and the other decisions associated with the age of majority. The Supreme Court in the Roper v Simmons ruling (juvenile death penalty) noted in the decision, “[a] lack of maturity and an underdeveloped sense of responsibility are found in youth more often than in adults" and "These qualities often result in impetuous and ill-considered actions and decisions.” and “adolescents are overrepresented statistically in virtually every category of reckless behavior.”

 

So if Brad were mad enough to go back to the court to try and have the emancipation revoked, he might be on solid ground if he knew about Will's 28-30 partners, their ages and all the circumstances.

 

But it all misses the point. There is an incredible gulf between settle down in virtual marriage when you are 14 years old and fuck every guy and any guy you like without regard to the dangers and damages to yourself. Most 14 year olds are acquiring friends and family is not the same as friends, they are entirely different dynamics. Jane Mendle released an excellent study on the links between promiscuity and depression in adolescents and the link is even more pronounced for those under 15 ( Depression and adolescent sexual activity ).

 

The idea that 14 year olds need to "experiment" in order to figure out what is good for them is patently absurd. Should they experiment with heroin to figure out if is good for them? Laurence Steinberg, PhD of Temple has been doing groundbreaking work on risky behaviors in adolescents. One of his studies shows that adolescents, while they understand the risky behavior, are actually hard wired at that age to ignore what their minds tell them on the risk. That is one of the reasons that most minors do NOT win emancipation and why it requires parental consent. It assumes that the parent is going to stay involved with the child and that the reason they are seeking emancipation is not so they can engage in high risk behavior.

 

So no. Will is not the best judge of what is good for him. if it is not an adult in his life, it might have to be his psychologist. And apropos to nothing, I bet Will's number of partners is twice that of the supposed Lothario, Darius.

 

 

Underlying your right-wing tendencies to rant about the general decline and lack of morals (I'm teasing here.. ), you raise a really good point (which is also usually true of you), and that is that Will seems to have rather intense friendships that don't last, or become shallow.  With Noah, he had a bond, but Noah seems to be out of the picture right now.  The same thing seems to be true with Ryan.  Most of the guys he's slept with aren't really in the picture either.  You mention Wade, who probably is Will's best friend.  I'd add to that list Brad, Stef, and JP, but they're all family members.  Also on the list of close friends would be Darius, who he seems to be back on a good plateau with, and possibly JJ, but he's really too self-absorbed to worry much about what Will does.  One other person who I'd see as a good friend of Will's is Jeff, even though we haven't seen him recently.

 

I would not be surprised if Ryan and Alistair both manage to do that with Will, and depending on how this relationship works out with Kai, I can see him in that category as well.  Jeff, IMHO, is already there. 

 

OK, I had this really wonderful response all drilled down in my brain, and then B1ue went ahead and did it for me.  But to address what you said, I largely agree with you, and I really think we're all saying the same thing.  Sex is important, but it's not everything.  But Tony has shown Will what great sex can be, and that will set the bar for future partners.  He'll be able to make any trade-offs knowing what he's leaving behind.  Would I trade loyalty, honesty, commitment, and friendship for marginally better sex in my life?  No fucking way.  14 (almost 15) year old Will may at this point, but probably wouldn't, and most likely wouldn't over the long-haul either. 

 

 

In the previous section I mentioned I bet Will is well ahead of Darius in sex partners. I bet he is well ahead of Wade as well and maybe even with Matt or ahead of Matt.

 

The point is, that since Will is really on his own, no adult really knows what he is up to or is plugged into him on the level where Will talk about  what is going on in his life. I bet Wade would be appalled to find out that Will has had close to 30 partners already and two of the last three have been close to double his 14 years. I think Jeff would provide valuable insight for him on how vacuous just sex can be. I think even Stef, as promiscuous as he is, would think Will has gone too far too fast.

 

I have no doubt that because of the connection between Jeff and Ryan, that Will will continue to have contact with Ryan, plus the bond that they have developed on their own. I also think that there is a dynamic between Alistair and Will that has a lot of upside.

[B1ue]

Will at 14 is not mature enough to make these kinds of decisions, decisions effecting his health and psychological make-up. Don't misunderstand what emancipation means. It means he can sign contracts to rent an apartment, buy a house, get a job etc. It does not change the laws on who he can have sex with, whether or not he can drink, whether or not he can drive and the other decisions associated with the age of majority. The Supreme Court in the Roper v Simmons ruling (juvenile death penalty) noted in the decision, “[a] lack of maturity and an underdeveloped sense of responsibility are found in youth more often than in adults" and "These qualities often result in impetuous and ill-considered actions and decisions.” and “adolescents are overrepresented statistically in virtually every category of reckless behavior.”

 

So if Brad were mad enough to go back to the court to try and have the emancipation revoked, he might be on solid ground if he knew about Will's 28-30 partners, their ages and all the circumstances.

 

Whatever his maturity level, he's still the only one that can make these decisions for himself. Whether he makes them now, at twenty, or at forty won't change that.

 

As has been, repeatedly, stated, Will is not your average 14 year old. Psychological and medical studies are excellent for charting trends, group behaviors, and odds, but mean damn all against the reality of case studies. The only percentage that matters in any one case is 100% or 0%, and not many studies can guarantee those odds.

 

The idea that 14 year olds need to "experiment" in order to figure out what is good for them is patently absurd. Should they experiment with heroin to figure out if is good for them? Laurence Steinberg, PhD of Temple has been doing groundbreaking work on risky behaviors in adolescents. One of his studies shows that adolescents, while they understand the risky behavior, are actually hard wired at that age to ignore what their minds tell them on the risk. That is one of the reasons that most minors do NOT win emancipation and why it requires parental consent. It assumes that the parent is going to stay involved with the child and that the reason they are seeking emancipation is not so they can engage in high risk behavior.

 

So no. Will is not the best judge of what is good for him. if it is not an adult in his life, it might have to be his psychologist. And apropos to nothing, I bet Will's number of partners is twice that of the supposed Lothario, Darius.

 

I, in fact, stated that not everyone needs to experiment, but that the need to experiment is something that everyone needs to decide for themselves. I, for instance, have never smoked pot. I hate the very idea of it, and feel no need to partake in it even if it were to become legal. I also don't drink to excess, or smoke regularly, for many of the same reasons. But that doesn't mean I harped on anyone else for trying it out. Generally I didn't even judge them for it, though that equanimity came hard for me.

 

Also I never knew any teenager that let an adult stop them when they put their minds to something, however risky or patently illegal the idea was. Honestly, I find the idea that any adult stopping any teenager when that kid doesn't want to be stopped a bit laughable, but perhaps you've seen examples where they managed it?

 

More to the point about Will's emancipation, do you honestly think Brad, JP, or, hell, even Wade having parental control over Will would slow him down? The kid is pretty much the definition of out of control at this point. I realize that you believe the best response to that kind of situation is to crack down, create concrete boundaries for a child or teenager. I can understand that mindset, because that's almost the only positive action a reasonable parent can take in response. Or, at least, that's the only positive response I've noticed being taken (I am not a parent, so my viewpoint is at the remove of watching my friends and various family members crash through their teenage years). To put it bluntly, I do not share this mindset. I've seen it work, when the kid in question wants to be good or just wants to not be in trouble with the law or their parents, but I've also seen it create situations where the kid escaped as fast and as far as they could. Will would certainly fall into that category. We've seen him do it.

 

 

But it all misses the point. There is an incredible gulf between settle down in virtual marriage when you are 14 years old and fuck every guy and any guy you like without regard to the dangers and damages to yourself. Most 14 year olds are acquiring friends and family is not the same as friends, they are entirely different dynamics. Jane Mendle released an excellent study on the links between promiscuity and depression in adolescents and the link is even more pronounced for those under 15 ( Depression and adolescent sexual activity ).

 

What does the acquisition of friends have to do with sexual activity? Are you arguing that one stops the other? Because that's not been my experience, so I'm not sure of this connection. Or are you simply arguing that it is stopping it in Will's case. If so, I can more readily see the argument, but I would point out that Will has several role-models to whom sex is an extension of friendship.

 

Also, family and friends can have a different dynamic. That difference is not universal, or even universal to every member of your family.

Edited August 6, 2013 by B1ue

[centexhairysub]

Okay, I am going to start by saying that this is a fictional story and Will is not a real person; as far as we know...

 

The Mendle study that Tim is referring to doesn't so much link sexual activity in adolescents to depressive symptoms or clinically severe depression as it links random non-romantic sexual activity.  Those that engage in sexual activity with no emotional attachment or meaning have a much higher chance of developing either depressive symptoms or clinically severe depression.  What this study lacked was a componet that dealt with what drives that behaviour.  Often sexual behaviour of this type is driven by other factors, that can have as much to do with development of depressive issues if not more than the sexual component.  Actually those factors may drive the sexual component rather than the other way around.  Plus, the study also shows that those that had even multiple sexual partners but within a romantic or committed relationship had a much lower percentage in development of the depressive issues.  So it isn't as much the sex or even the number of sexual partners that can be the issue but whether the sexual activity takes place in a romantice relationship or is simply random non-romantic sexual activity.  That being said, the problem I have is when you lump all adolescents together.  I have seen some that could hop from bed to bed with no issues and others that even one sexual encounter was one to many.  But, to be honest, if I was seeing an adolescent Will's age that had thirty sexual partners; I would be looking for what was driving the activity.  The problem with that is that in this story; Will really doesn't have any of the standard issues that one would look at in trying to find out what was driving the behaviour. 

 

I really thought about it today and I had six sexual partners before the age of fifteen.  I was up to over fifty by the time I graduated high school; I grew up in small town in rural Texas and there really wasn't anything else to do but drink, get high, or have sex, or some combination there of.  By the time I had reached forty-five I was well into triple digits.  Okay, I went through a major slut period that lasted most of my mid and late 20's and early 30's...  I know guys that have only had one or two partners that are my age and those that have had double what I have had; what drove each of us to make the choices we made? 

 

Okay, now to the newest chapter.  I really like that Hank and Jeanine seem to be in such a good place.  I really like that Will has been able to bond so well with Hank and really seems happy that Hank has made Jeanine happy.  I do not think Hank can die on 09/11 unless Jeanine does as well; I really don't think that Jeanine could handle losing Hank after everyting thing else that she has gone through...

 

I loved how JP and Isidore really understand and care about each other.  The ties that bind them run so deep and really no one except maybe Stef really has any idea of what all they have been through in their lifetime together.

 

Marie is going to be trouble.  I don't know what it is going to take to snap her out of the idea that she is untouchable but the issues coming up might do so...

 

Great chapter and I can't wait to see where it leads next....

[methodwriter85]

      Will has a lot of sex because Mark wants him to have a lot of sex, because this is Mark's story, and Mark's story is a gay erotic story about gay and bisexual men from a slutty powerful family. Will is not-quite 15, but fucks his way through the story like he's an 18-year old college kid, because Mark did not want to advance the story to 2004 so he's written Will as essentially having the body and mindset of an 17/18-year old guy.

 

      Will is also, by virture of the fact that he's growing up in a time period where no one really cares about him being gay, able to meet and do whatever he wants to do. Do you guys really think that if Brad had grown up in the early 00's instead of the late 70's, he wouldn't have banged every available piece of tail he could find when he was Will's age? The only reason why Brad's high school numbers aren't on par with Will's is because Brad grew up in a time period where being openly gay would get your ass beaten or worse, and the fear of being found out likely held him back. (We also only followed Brad through one story of high school, whereas so far we've seen 3 stories of Will's.)

 

   I just don't feel like there's any deep reason as to why Will's having so much sex. He's got a body that's telling him to fuck everything in sight, he's rich and looks like an 18-year old model, he's from a generation that isn't worried about AIDS, and his jet-set lifestyle allows him opportunity after opportunity to meet new sexual partners.

 

    And as for the idea that he might be "up" or even pass where Matt is...we've only see Matt's point of view once, during his senior year of high school through his freshman year of college. It wasn't exactly like Matt was a virgin when we met him either. And he's been in an open relationship with Wade since freshman year, and I'm betting he had a lot of sex partners since leading up to Wade's storyline in Paternity, and after.

 

     The only reason why Will's standing out so much is because we've covering more of his life with much smaller gaps than anyone else (July 2000 to September 2000 in 46 chapters, September 2000 to January 2001 in 100 chapters, June 2001 to now at currently 25 chapters), so we're privy to more of his sexual encounters than the other characters.

 

      Will hasn't gotten anyone pregnant, or infected anybody with a disease, so whatever he does...I generally don't see the problem since he damn sure doesn't seem to be hurting himself.

Edited August 7, 2013 by methodwriter85

[centexhairysub]

      Will has a lot of sex because Mark wants him to have a lot of sex, because this is Mark's story, and Mark's story is a gay erotic story about gay and bisexual men from a slutty powerful family. Will is not-quite 15, but fucks his way through the story like he's an 18-year old college kid, because Mark did not want to advance the story to 2004 so he's written Will as essentially having the body and mindset of an 17/18-year old guy.

 

      Will hasn't gotten anyone pregnant, or infected anybody with a disease, so whatever he does...I generally don't see the problem since he damn sure doesn't seem to be hurting himself.

 

I agree with just about everything that you are saying...  That is why I clearly stated in the first line of my comment above that " Okay, I am going to start by saying that this is a fictional story and Will is not a real person; as far as we know... " and I did that because in the context of the story there is nothing wrong with what Will is doing. 

 

Several people have made comments about the number of sexual partners that Will has had in the story; most of my post was addressing that.  If Will was a "Real Person" I would be concerned about his behaviour, but since he isn't; let's just enjoy the story... 

 

I understand that that are on the other side of the fence on this issue and I do think they have made a valid argument but this is a work of fiction and is what Mark has written and I hope we can just enjoy the story.  I haven't always been able to do that, and it is all Mark's fault...  If he wasn't such a talented writer; I would not get so caught up that I get unreasonable attached and involved in the lives of these wonderful creations of his... 

 

Bad Mark, Bad Mark...

[GLH]

Geez, spent the day in St. Louis and missed all the real entertainment... 

Edited August 7, 2013 by GLH

[methodwriter85]

 

Well said, and I agree. It isn't healthy to be an island, either, and I think those concerns are justified. Being isolated makes JJ vulnerable.

 

Why do I get the feeling that you're not just going to let JJ finish out the rest of his teens in relative peace as he diligently and quietly makes his way towards the '06 Olympics at Torino?

 

I do think it's interesting how JP worries about JJ, because JJ is kind of this enigma that he doesn't really get. JJ's not like any one else in the family. He doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve like Will does.

Edited August 7, 2013 by methodwriter85

[centexhairysub]

This was such a sweet chapter; like the calm before a storm that we all know is just around the corner.  It is so easy to forget that sometimes it is the little things and moments in life that make it so worth while...

 

 

I find myself looking at the date on each chapter and getting physically ill.  I just cannot image how Mark is handling writing and re-lliving that day.  No one viewed the world the same way after the events of that day.  Even if no one in the extended CAP family is hurt or killed; those over a certain age will have their lives altered in ways no one could have been ready for.  I know that Mark will handle this with dignity and honesty but I can say it will be really hard for me to read and re-live those events again. 

 

 

Will has learned a great deal from his family.  Unlike Marie, he understands that with great wealth and power comes great responsibility.  Everyone should always strive to make life better not only for themselves and their family but others around them and the world as a whole; but those with the resources to do the most have a great responsibility then the average person.  JP and his family have done what they can to help others.  Sometimes it is personal and no one but the person they help really knows and other times it is helping to revitalize a whole town or setting up centers for homeless teens.  You can do what you can behind the scenes or out front to try and encourage others, but the most important thing is to make a change for the better in the world around you...

 

 

What Will did for Kai's family cannot be underestimated.  Just making it easier for someone with a disability to get around in their own homes is such a major deal.  The physical limitations that one faces with a disability can drain not just the person with the disability but all those around them.  This was truly the act of a good soul.

 

 

Will and Kai are at an age that makes it almost impossible for a long distance relationship to work.  It is hard at any age but when you are that young, it is next to impossible.  I do hope they stay friends and stay in contact with each other because I think it benefits both of them to be in each others lives. 

 

 

I really loved how Will handled the situation with Stef and his and JP coming to see him.  I thought the scene when Stef and Malcom were discussing the locked steel door was just hilarious, JP was perfect there as well.  The steel door isn't just a physical instrument to keep everyone out; but a powerful non-verbal communication to others about Will's feelings.  It is amazing how much JP understands Will and how in tune they are in so many ways.  Wade maybe more like JP than anyone else, but I think in some ways Will is what JP wishes he had been as a young man growing up...

 

 

Robbie seems to be more in tune with Will right now than Brad.  I hope that Robbie is able to keep Brad on an even keel with this situation.  I don't think Will really wants to hurt his father but he understands that what he will face in leaving Kai will be emotional enough that he can't handle any other drama on top of it.  Will is going to need his family around him and their support when he gets back to Escorial because I think he cares about Kai a lot more than even he has admitted to himself.  Will doesn't want to get hurt again so he is trying to prepare himself but no one is ever ready for that...

 

 

I can't wait but am terrified but what is coming...

[methodwriter85]

   I liked how this chapter, as well as Will's home renovation storyline in general, evoked the whole feeling of home improvement T.V. shows like Trading Spaces with a dash of Extreme Makeover- Home Edition. Really "of" the time period- as home values skyrocketed, home improvement was pretty huge. An entire network- HGTV - was set up in devotion of it.

 

    I wonder if we're going to get a storyline where Stefan decides to build a housing development in say the Inland Empire, or in the O.C.