9.11

[GLH]

This was such a sweet chapter; like the calm before a storm that we all know is just around the corner.  It is so easy to forget that sometimes it is the little things and moments in life that make it so worth while... 

 

I find myself looking at the date on each chapter and getting physically ill.  I just cannot image how Mark is handling writing and re-living that day.  No one viewed the world the same way after the events of that day.  Even if no one in the extended CAP family is hurt or killed; those over a certain age will have their lives altered in ways no one could have been ready for.  I know that Mark will handle this with dignity and honesty but I can say it will be really hard for me to read and re-live those events again.

 

It is nice to read such uplifting chapters.  Seeing the dates in the story bring back the emotions and memories relating to what I would have been doing/feeling, maybe not on that particular day, but in the general context of that summer. These last couple of chapters are such a counterpoint to how I spent the summer of 2001. I do remember spending 9/11 feeling like I'd suffered a massive kick to the groin, but that was just the period at the end of the sentence that was my summer.

 

Will has learned a great deal from his family.  Unlike Marie, he understands that with great wealth and power comes great responsibility.  Everyone should always strive to make life better not only for themselves and their family but others around them and the world as a whole; but those with the resources to do the most have a great responsibility then the average person.  JP and his family have done what they can to help others.  Sometimes it is personal and no one but the person they help really knows and other times it is helping to revitalize a whole town or setting up centers for homeless teens.  You can do what you can behind the scenes or out front to try and encourage others, but the most important thing is to make a change for the better in the world around you...

 

 

What Will did for Kai's family cannot be underestimated.  Just making it easier for someone with a disability to get around in their own homes is such a major deal.  The physical limitations that one faces with a disability can drain not just the person with the disability but all those around them.  This was truly the act of a good soul.

I know others have mentioned it before, but I truly believe that Will channels Tonto and had she passed prior to his birth, I'd almost have to say he was her reincarnation.

 

I can't wait but am terrified but what is coming...

My sentiments exactly.

Edited August 7, 2013 by GLH

[PrivateTim]

I agree with just about everything that you are saying...  That is why I clearly stated in the first line of my comment above that " Okay, I am going to start by saying that this is a fictional story and Will is not a real person; as far as we know... " and I did that because in the context of the story there is nothing wrong with what Will is doing.

 

Okay, I am going to start by saying that this is a fictional story and Will is not a real person; as far as we know...

 

Whether or not Will is a real person and the work is fiction or non-fiction doesn't really matter. The situations and moral dilemmas are real and the discussions around them have validity.

 

Uncle Tom's Cabin, The Jungle, and the works of Charles Dickens, all of which were fiction, served to change the societies into which they were introduced through the discussions they engendered.

 

I'd like to think one day every Christmas we could be treated to Will Schluter instead of that simpering brat, Tiny you know who.

 

God Bless is everyone

[Daddydavek]

Will is a man child, that indeterminate age between 14 to 25, (maybe 28 in some cases).  The time when acting mature is usually pretty much an act instead of a habit.  Face it, women are better actors and therefore mature earlier.  So all this angst about Will's maturity sounds a bit wonky.  I am enjoying the story and the learning process he is going through in the context of his time and his generation and his place.  Mark likes to write historical novels.   This is fairly recent history, but it is a dozen years ago and it is interesting to me and I also suspect to his vast legion of fans.  .  

Edited August 8, 2013 by Daddydavek

[methodwriter85]

     The context of Will's coming-of-age is really interesting- it's post-gay rights movements of the 1970's and 1980's, and it's after AIDS stopped being seen as a death sentence in the Western World. (Mid-1990's.) It's also when gay teenagers were able to meet other gay teenagers online, which became common in the late 1990's. (Although that's something that hasn't really been a factor in Will's development yet- it does seem like the one thing Brad did was monitor the guys's online habits.) Will is emerging as being representative of that first generation of gay men who were openly gay by middle school and never got any real crap for it, and don't know what it's like to be gaybashed because society had become much more open and accepting.

 

      It's also taking place when more and more men are willing to own up to the idea that sexuality isn't quite so black and white for them, which we're seeing with Gathan, and likely with JJ later on. It's in stark contrast to the mindset that Brad's generation grew up with, where you were either straight or you were gay, and if you were bisexual you were just kidding yourself. Here, you're seeing phrases like "bromance", "metrosexual", "heteroflexible", "pansexual", and "bi-curious" becoming common, because society had advanced to the point where people were more accepting of not just gay people, but people who didn't fall into either binary. (Although let's be honest- bisexually-shaded guys still get a lot of crap from people.)

 

       It's why Tony is being made into a pretty important narrative piece, because Tony represents the classic closet case, which is starting to become anachronistic during this decade.

 

 

Will is a man child, that indeterminate age between 14 to 25, (maybe 28 in some cases).  The time when acting mature is usually pretty much an act instead of a habit.  Face it, women are better actors and therefore mature earlier.

 

       Very true. Even though Will is described as having the mindset of an 18-year old, they're still pretty damn immature for the most part. I don't think I really came into maturity without it being an act until I was 25 or so. Grad school kinda forces it out of you.

Edited August 8, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

     The context of Will's coming-of-age is really interesting- it's post-gay rights movements of the 1970's and 1980's, and it's after AIDS stopped being seen as a death sentence in the Western World. (Mid-1990's.) It's also when gay teenagers were able to meet other gay teenagers online, which became common in the late 1990's. (Although that's something that hasn't really been a factor in Will's development yet- it does seem like the one thing Brad did was monitor the guys's online habits.) Will is emerging as being representative of that first generation of gay men who were openly gay by middle school and never got any real crap for it, and don't know what it's like to be gaybashed because society had become much more open and accepting.

 

      It's also taking place when more and more men are willing to own up to the idea that sexuality isn't quite so black and white for them, which we're seeing with Gathan, and likely with JJ later on. It's in stark contrast to the mindset that Brad's generation grew up with, where you were either straight or you were gay, and if you were bisexual you were just kidding yourself. Here, you're seeing phrases like "bromance", "metrosexual", "heteroflexible", "pansexual", and "bi-curious" becoming common, because society had advanced to the point where people were more accepting of not just gay people, but people who didn't fall into either binary. (Although let's be honest- bisexually-shaded guys still get a lot of crap from people.)

 

       It's why Tony is being made into a pretty important narrative piece, because Tony represents the classic closet case, which is starting to become anachronistic during this decade.

 

 

       Very true. Even though Will is described as having the mindset of an 18-year old, they're still pretty damn immature for the most part. I don't think I really came into maturity without it being an act until I was 25 or so. Grad school kinda forces it out of you.

 

Well said.

[centexhairysub]

Well, this was a really nice chapter and a great way to end my night.  I thought the scene with Will and Kai was really sweet and endearing.  They both realize that they are just not ready for a long distance relationship and they really don't know what will happen but you can tell that they truly care about each other.  I don't know that I could see them going much further than they have; but I hope they do stay in touch and keep up with each other.  Kai is good for Will; I think he helps keep him grounded to reality to some extent.  Kai and his families struggle and happiness is hard fought and it was nice for Will to see and experience that. 

 

I thought that the scene on the plane between JP, Stef, and Will was really well written and I really felt I was there spying on them while it was going on.  Will has forgiven Stef and given absolution; and they seem to be back on a more even keel.  Will knows something is up with JP but I think he is going to be really suprised and worried that his behaviour started the ball rolling when he finds out. 

 

Will did the right thing with both Isidore and Claire but they responed just perfectly to his actions.  Claire has always been really important to Will and before this had backed him up more than almost anyone except JP and Stef.  The relationship between Will and Isidore has been more implied than shown; but it always seemed really important to Will, glad to see it moving back to where it was in the past. 

 

I hope that Claire and Jack both stick to their guns about Marie.  The quicker and earlier she learns that the world doesn't revolve around her and that her actions have consequences; the better off everyone will be in her life.  I was also glad to see that Will and John seem to be moving back into a tighter relationship.  I do think it will be good for both of them to have each others back.  I can see any battle between Will and Marie being messy, tearful, and noisy but I have to say my money will be on Will; even though Marie has an early inside track.  I don't think the battle will be over quickly or without casualties however; family battles rarely are.

 

Glad to see that Will took the high rode with Erik and let him know that he was truly sorry for his action; it was the move of a big man to admit the way Will got played by Tony and how it made him realize what Erik was going through. 

 

Sunday dinner is going to be explosive; I can't wait to see everyone's reactions.  Who will blame themselves, who will blame others, and who are just going to be in shock...  Can't wait...

[MJ85]

I hope that Claire and Jack both stick to their guns about Marie.  The quicker and earlier she learns that the world doesn't revolve around her and that her actions have consequences; the better off everyone will be in her life.  I was also glad to see that Will and John seem to be moving back into a tighter relationship.  I do think it will be good for both of them to have each others back.  I can see any battle between Will and Marie being messy, tearful, and noisy but I have to say my money will be on Will; even though Marie has an early inside track.  I don't think the battle will be over quickly or without casualties however; family battles rarely are.

 

My theory from the earlier pages still stands:

 

With Marie...I do wonder just how much Will's acting out, and subsequent emancipation, may have left an influence on her. It...*shudder* reminds me of JJ's initial explanation of how he saw Will hooking up with older guys around the house - thus, how could it be wrong for him to do the same? So: Will acts out, ends up getting emancipated. Now, Marie is starting to act out a bit. Misguided? Definitely. But, nonetheless influential? It wouldn't surprise me. It would certainly show the difference between whether she's headed for being Miss Unapologetic, or whether she's just deep down not sorry for what she did here.

 

When you stated, "the quicker and earlier she learns that the world doesn't revolve around her and that her actions have consequences," that was what jogged my memory.

[Mark Arbour]

My theory from the earlier pages still stands:

 

 

When you stated, "the quicker and earlier she learns that the world doesn't revolve around her and that her actions have consequences," that was what jogged my memory.

 

That's a really interesting point; I'm glad you made it (again).  Marie has to be really pissed at seeing Will earn his own freedom, while she is in her own version of jail.

[Miles Long]

In the spirit of not writing Marie off completely, I wonder if like Will and the "I love you...uh wait maybe not" debacle with Tony, it will take Marie going through a similar experience before she has that moment of clarity like Will did and realizes the impact of her actions.  Although her dramatic home antics and subsequent plotting with Ferris leave me to wonder about Marie's true redeem-ability.

 

Will could always pull a Brad move and sexually neutralize Ferris, but honestly I have more faith in Will to take the high road and let Marie's own selfishness be her downfall (her behavior leads me to ponder if she's actually the hell child mix of Amber, Cole's "fake tittied" bitch girl friend from Bloodline, and Bitty).

 

Just my thoughts as I recoup from my family invasion.

[methodwriter85]

   Marie's a 15-year old girl who is used to getting her own way by batting her eyes at her Daddy or the cute upperclassmen. I doubt she's heading for MaryEllen status. There's teenaged bitch, and there's teenaged sociopath.

 

    As someone who went to high school that was like 66 percent girls, you really do learn the difference.

[Miles Long]

   Marie's a 15-year old girl who is used to getting her own way by batting her eyes at her Daddy or the cute upperclassmen. I doubt she's heading for MaryEllen status. There's teenaged bitch, and there's teenaged sociopath.

 

    As someone who went to high school that was like 66 percent girls, you really do learn the difference.

 

I don't agree.  I too have experience with the high school girl's psyche as I was one at one time and while I appreciate your experience I have been on the receiving and giving end of the social games that teen girls play.  

 

There is a normal sense of entitlement, which comes from being pretty and rich, and then there is a complete disregard for anyone else's feelings.  Marie has exhibited the latter.  She insomuch as lied to her parents about apologizing to Will, and when given the chance blew it off as not having a chance.   Think about it that stunt with Noah, that was just a mean bitch move, she had to have known he would find out even if she didn't think he would go to the dance after she turned him down.  I don't accept her age as an acceptable reason to treat people like shit.  I'm not willing to call Marie a sociopath but a person (female or male) who can't acknowledge her own fallibility and blames others for her issues isn't just a bitch, she's on a slope to being a really awful person.

[methodwriter85]

   But you're forgetting what we saw as the good side to Marie- the girl who didn't like Carter's crowd and didn't try to suck up to them like Ella did, and didn't try to conform that whole Abercrombie prepster ideal, and who had her crowd take in Will because Will clearly didn't want to play by the rules of the uber-popular crowd, either.

[Miles Long]

   But you're forgetting what we saw as the good side to Marie- the girl who didn't like Carter's crowd and didn't try to suck up to them like Ella did, and didn't try to conform that whole Abercrombie prepster ideal, and who had her crowd take in Will because Will clearly didn't want to play by the rules of the uber-popular crowd, either.

 

I'm not forgetting that, I just don't think that those actions are necessarily indication of Marie's goodness.

 

Just because Marie's fashion sense differs from the majority and she doesn't like hanging out with jocks doesn't make her a saint.  If it did I would be next Mother Theresa   .  Taking Will into her fold could go either way, a genuine act of friendship or her own version of faction building.  I know plenty of folks who are super welcoming until one does something that they disagree with; it's almost fascinating to see how quickly the metaphorical claws come out.

 

I'm routing for Marie because I think she could have a lot of potential later on, but I am also preparing myself for disappointment because her current trajectory is concerning.

[methodwriter85]

    I'm saying that it stands to reason that if Marie was on some kind of MaryEllen trajectory, we would have seen no positive traits about her whatsoever. There hasn't been a single thing that MaryEllen has done that hasn't indicated that she's a sociopath who only cares about herself, whereas we have seen instances of Marie being a good person.

 

     As for the crowd thing, no it doesn't make her a saint. What it makes Marie is someone that didn't judge people based on how they dressed or how popular they were, because she's an eclectic person who likes what she likes without feeling the need to conform to what people tell her she should. It's in stark contrast to Claire at 15, who basically didn't deal with you unless you were in head-to-toe Lacoste preppy-wear, and Ella, who ignored that Carter was a homophobic ass towards Will because she wanted an "in" with his crowd. I think it is very much a positive trait, and that already puts her ahead of someone like MaryEllen or Alexandra Carmicheal.

 

      I mean, no one's perfect, and these characters are no exceptions. I remember it wasn't too long ago that people were wondering if JJ was going to wind up a villain, until they discovered why he was the way he was. I don't think Marie's gotten even close to being as much of an ass as JJ was to Will. And I'm not seeing where she's on a trajectory that leads her to MaryEllen-ville. Until she lets herself get beaten up in order to further her agenda (which is seriously sociopath), I'm not too worried. It's just typical teen high school bitch behavior, of which I saw quite often. It's the mindset of, "You're alllll against me and you all hate me, and you're runining my life!" , and she's lashing out with bitchy behavior. She'll get over it, probably by college.

Edited August 12, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Miles Long]

I'm not sure where this MaryEllen thing is coming from; I've never even mentioned her so I don't know why that conclusion has been jumped to.  I compared her to Bitty who was selfish, self destructive, entitled and incredibly ungrateful because Marie in my opinion has exhibited that behavior.  I also made comparison to a character from Bloodline because of the scheming to cause Will harm.  Marie's behavior borders on girl bullying and the dismissive attitude that it's typical teen behavior and she'll grow out of it is what allows it to prevail.

 

Furthermore, Marie, who decided to positioned herself as some sort of moral proctor of Will over the Kyle thing, is way more judgmental than Claire was at the same age, not only that she lacks the kindness that Claire showed to others less fortunate than her (Mouse for example).  She also lacks Claire sense of family loyalty which is why she is in this situation to begin with.

 

Unless there is something I'm not privy to yet I don't see Marie as being really all that different from the kids she is allegedly not conforming to...her clique is just dressed differently and has broader interests than the A&F crowd.

[methodwriter85]

I'm not sure where this MaryEllen thing is coming from; I've never even mentioned her so I don't know why that conclusion has been jumped to.  I compared her to Bitty who was selfish, self destructive, entitled and incredibly ungrateful because Marie in my opinion has exhibited that behavior.  I also made comparison to a character from Bloodline because of the scheming to cause Will harm.  Marie's behavior borders on girl bullying and the dismissive attitude that it's typical teen behavior and she'll grow out of it is what allows it to prevail.

 

Furthermore, Marie, who decided to positioned herself as some sort of moral proctor of Will over the Kyle thing, is way more judgmental than Claire was at the same age, not only that she lacks the kindness that Claire showed to others less fortunate than her (Mouse for example).  She also lacks Claire sense of family loyalty which is why she is in this situation to begin with.

 

Unless there is something I'm not privy to yet I don't see Marie as being really all that different from the kids she is allegedly not conforming to...her clique is just dressed differently and has broader interests than the A&F crowd.

 

     I would seriously love to see you get into a debate with Private Tim over something you disagreed with. As for me, I'm going to retreat because I don't feel strongly enough to draw a line in the sand about this particular subject in CAP.

[B1ue]

Furthermore, Marie, who decided to positioned herself as some sort of moral proctor of Will over the Kyle thing, is way more judgmental than Claire was at the same age, not only that she lacks the kindness that Claire showed to others less fortunate than her (Mouse for example).  She also lacks Claire sense of family loyalty which is why she is in this situation to begin with.

Claire wasn't exactly a saint in Be-Rad. Oh, sure, compared to Brad, she had the morality and temperament of one, but that's compared to Brad. She made mistakes, turned on her own twin when she thought he was in the wrong, and backed Brad up when Brad piled punishment and worse onto Billy. Marie, at least, cannot be accused of being anyone's follower, while Claire really did do things for the sake of following the crowd.

 

Like Claire, I hope Marie gets the chance to see where her actions might lead her. I hope she doesn't have to pay quite as much as her mother did for her lesson, though.

 

Also, I have to wonder if this is the best way to try and reach Marie. It was worth trying, but it doesn't seem to be working yet. Nothing better springs to mind, I must admit. Marie seems to be at a point where she's only going to change when she wants to, and no amount of punishment will deter that, because she's genuinely not linking the punishment to the crime. I also wonder if Claire and Jack are piling a bit more on Marie than genuinely necessary in order to expiate their own guilt. They don't seem to be, other than the level of stubbornness they seem to be exhibiting, but I am curious.

[methodwriter85]

Claire wasn't exactly a saint in Be-Rad. Oh, sure, compared to Brad, she had the morality and temperament of one, but that's compared to Brad. She made mistakes, turned on her own twin when she thought he was in the wrong, and backed Brad up when Brad piled punishment and worse onto Billy. Marie, at least, cannot be accused of being anyone's follower, while Claire really did do things for the sake of following the crowd.

 

Like Claire, I hope Marie gets the chance to see where her actions might lead her. I hope she doesn't have to pay quite as much as her mother did for her lesson, though.

 

 

 

In terms of Clarie's kindness to Mouse...would she have even noticed him if Brad hadn't brought it to her attention? Does anyone honestly think that Claire would have talked to Mouse otherwise? High School Claire would have only hung out with other preppy people in high school, and if you noticed, part of her kindness to Mouse was giving him a preppy makeover so that he would look like the other people in her crowd.(Ala Alison's makeover in The Breakfast Club.) We at least know that Marie isn't a follower, and she's not someone who would take clothing labels as a prequisite for friendship, and we can't really say the same for High School Claire. I'm not saying Marie isn't a snob, but her mother had some pretty bitchy qualities at 15, too. It took the double whammy of having to get an abortion and losing her twin brother just shy of their 16th birthday to get Claire to where she is now.

 

The other thing to think about...when exactly would Marie run into people like Mouse? Marie doesn't go to public school in 1980 California like Claire did- she goes to private school in Atherton, California, where the average household income is around 200k. The closest she's gotten to being around poor people was when Gathan's family visited. She hasn't even really had the opportunity yet to respond to people who are less fortunate than her.

 

In any event, I'm not sure the Bitty comparison works here. Marie is being a bitch because she feels like Will took her friends and he's usurping her in the family. Bitty was always, relentlessly a bitch, much like MaryEllen. The one compassionate thing she did was giving Darius and JJ away to Brad to raise, and even that got ruined 9 years later.

Edited August 12, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Daddydavek]

I wonder if Marie will be featured in the chapter detailing JP's announcement?   Somehow I don't think Marie is more than a side player in this yarn so I'd be sort of surprised if she took center stage for any length of time.  Will will have to deal with her at some point.  Whether it's done in front of the whole family or privately and he may just figure a way to do that in way which finally forces her to have some insight into her own problem.   Mr. Arbour is good at doing that!

[centexhairysub]

Damn, reading the comments in the forum lately makes me feel like Mark is writing an upper crust version of "Mean Girls" and I never realized it. 

 

 

I will ask this, if Will had done what Marie did would any of you that are dying about her behaviour have even cared?  To be honest, Will has acted far worse that Marie over the course of the last year in CAP time and did not draw as much condemnation.  Now, Marie should have apologized to Will and really needs to understand that family is more important but I really did not notice her drugging anyone, running away, or doing hundreds of thousands of dollars in property damage... 

[Westie]

In terms of Clarie's kindness to Mouse...would she have even noticed him if Brad hadn't brought it to her attention? Does anyone honestly think that Claire would have talked to Mouse otherwise? High School Claire would have only hung out with other preppy people in high school, and if you noticed, part of her kindness to Mouse was giving him a preppy makeover so that he would look like the other people in her crowd.(Ala Alison's makeover in The Breakfast Club.)

 

OK, so Claire was never "actively" good.  She was passive.  She had her own world to live in.  When someone was brought to her attention, she drew them into her world the only way she knew how.

 

We all do that.  Doesn't make anyone a bad person.

[methodwriter85]

Right. But it doesn't make her significantly better than Marie, which was the point that Miles seemed to be trying to make about the kindness that Claire extended to people like Mouse.

 

I mean, at the end of the day...if you think pretty hard about it, everyone in CAP has some pretty shitty tendencies. The only people we've had that come close to being moral vanguards would be Tonto and Wade. I think it's just the nature of the fact that this is a dramatic story, as drama is fuled by the morally grey as opposed to people who always pick right over wrong.

 

 

Now, Marie should have apologized to Will and really needs to understand that family is more important but I really did not notice her drugging anyone, running away, or doing hundreds of thousands of dollars in property damage

 

I feel like girls/women are put on a higher standard than guys are- there's this double standard that boys will be boys, but as soon as a girl steps out of bounds she's nearly condemned. I think it harkens back to the Republican Motherhood ideal, which holds the premise that women are morally superior towards men and thus it is up to her to install the values of republicanism in the next generation.

Edited August 12, 2013 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Damn, reading the comments in the forum lately makes me feel like Mark is writing an upper crust version of "Mean Girls" and I never realized it. 

 

 

I will ask this, if Will had done what Marie did would any of you that are dying about her behaviour have even cared?  To be honest, Will has acted far worse that Marie over the course of the last year in CAP time and did not draw as much condemnation.  Now, Marie should have apologized to Will and really needs to understand that family is more important but I really did not notice her drugging anyone, running away, or doing hundreds of thousands of dollars in property damage... 

 

I'm not totally convinced she owes Will an apology, actually. (edit:) She should make one, but only because it'll get everyone else off her back. What I dislike about her character is that, like Will, she's not connecting her actions with the results. And that's not something I tolerate in anyone I know, nor do I enjoy seeing it in fiction. In the stories though, Will is getting help for that. Marie is refusing help, which is what I find more alarming.

 

Besides, I'm never going to find hundreds of thousands or dollars worth of property damage owned by someone that can easily afford it anything but amusing. If he'd vandalized the mission, I'd be less amused, but Brad and Robbie? That makes me smile.

Edited August 13, 2013 by B1ue

[MJ85]

Besides, I'm never going to find hundreds of thousands or dollars worth of property damage owned by someone that can easily afford it anything but amusing. If he'd vandalized the mission, I'd be less amused, but Brad and Robbie? That makes me smile.

I was going to make a crack wondering how much "property damage" costs Will incurred to have his nose repaired, after Marie's gossipy machinations sent Erik his way - until I realized that it'd be nothing that insurance couldn't handle.

 

Damn it.

Edited August 13, 2013 by MJ85

[Mark Arbour]

I'm not totally convinced she owes Will an apology, actually. (edit:) She should make one, but only because it'll get everyone else off her back. What I dislike about her character is that, like Will, she's not connecting her actions with the results. And that's not something I tolerate in anyone I know, nor do I enjoy seeing it in fiction. In the stories though, Will is getting help for that. Marie is refusing help, which is what I find more alarming.

 

Besides, I'm never going to find hundreds of thousands or dollars worth of property damage owned by someone that can easily afford it anything but amusing. If he'd vandalized the mission, I'd be less amused, but Brad and Robbie? That makes me smile.

 

i have to admit, there's an evil part of me that loves writing destructive scenes like that.    It's all I can do to resist having Will light the Ferrari in Palo Alto on fire sometimes.  A can of lighter fluid...a match...

 

The original destruction scene for Paternity was much worse.  I had him just mauling the whole house, but my team wisely talked me off the ledge.    Psycho Mark.