9.11

[methodwriter85]

   You're expecting a journey of morality, philosophy, and ethics on a gay soap opera? Seriously?

[apjordan]

I think JJ would be more along the lines of an agnostic...believing in a god, but not really being tied into any kind of organized religion.

 

FYI: An agnostic is someone who believes we can't know whether or not there is a god. So someone who "believ[es] in a god" is not agnostic, by definition. Your speculative religious belief for JJ strikes me as more akin to deism.

[MJ85]

Eh...I'd just think the odds of Will even dabbling in religion are about as great as Elizabeth Danfield becoming a Saint. Not just "saintly", but an honest-to-God Saint.

Edited April 16, 2013 by MJ85

[PrivateTim]

   You're expecting a journey of morality, philosophy, and ethics on a gay soap opera? Seriously?

 

CAP is literature not a soap opera and it has had morality, philosophy and ethics all through it. Bizarre that you do not recognize that.

[methodwriter85]

   What's bizarre is that you've missed the times Mark has explicitly said this is a soap opera.

 

    I would love to see the kind of journey you're talking about here, but the likelihood of having a protagonist even dabbling in religion seems zero to nil. Even Gathan, who should have grown up in a religious household given the vibes that Wally and Clara gave off, seemed oddly not all that into relgion.

 

   Religion and philosphy just don't seem like things that Mark wants to put into his writing all that much.

[Rosenkrantz]

I think the whole cheating issue is less about right and wrong, and more about responsibility. In situations like Kyle and Eric's, it is Kyle's job to choose not to cheat, but if he doesn't have the strength to, then it's up to Will what happens next. He could go for it and make himself happy, which I'm not saying is a bad thing. But then he could also think about how much pain their tryst is going to cause Eric, and decide to say no to Kyle on that basis. 

 

Who really wants to know that they're the cause of someone else's pain, whether the blame rests on their shoulders or not? But then again, Will doesn't have much experience with how other people feel. Most things he does are for his own benefit, such as with Kyle and Tony and the emancipation and moving up to Escorial. Some of them good decisions, some of them not, but he does have a record of doing things for his own comfort. Also, he's a 14 year old kid with a mass of wealth far more than most 14 year olds even dream about. Pretty much a recipe for douchebaggery, though it does seem like JJ got most of that gene. 

 

I love Will, he's a great guy at heart. I just hope next time he realizes that sometimes, his own comfort comes at a great price to others. 

 

CAP is literature not a soap opera and it has had morality, philosophy and ethics all through it. Bizarre that you do not recognize that.

 

I agree. Half of Brad's story was all about ethics, if you thought about it hard enough. And pretty much every major decision that anyone makes in CAP has some kind of moral or ethical hint to it; even when it's the decision of whether or not to choose the amoral route. CAP is riddled with time old questions about philosophy and morality, which is part of the reason why it's so good. It's a testament to Mark's skill as an author that he is able to combine all of these elements so well in a story like this. 

[rjo]

Sorry to be a downer but after seeing the news and the death of the young boy in Boston the whole 9 11 horror returned. I remember seeing the plane hit the second tower, thinking it was a movie. Later when the towers fell I couldn't believe it. In 1995 I had gone to NYC and see them. How could this happen here in America? When I got to work that day, they sent us home. We were on the FBI hit list. As the CAP world approuches the date I feel the same dread I felt in CAP on Nov 22, 1963. What is wrong with this world that these things happen over and over again? Good luck Mark This will e hard to cover.

[Mark Arbour]

Literature?  That's a bit beyond my league, Tim, but I am flattered.  

 

 

   What's bizarre is that you've missed the times Mark has explicitly said this is a soap opera.

 

    I would love to see the kind of journey you're talking about here, but the likelihood of having a protagonist even dabbling in religion seems zero to nil. Even Gathan, who should have grown up in a religious household given the vibes that Wally and Clara gave off, seemed oddly not all that into relgion.

 

   Religion and philosphy just don't seem like things that Mark wants to put into his writing all that much.

 

I don't see myself doing a religious protagonist, but I have had characters dabble in it.  When Brad hooked up with Father Tim (Millennium), he let his mind wander down that road.  I got some great input from Father Harry on how to frame that conversation, and it was pretty interesting.  

 

Half of Brad's story was all about ethics, if you thought about it hard enough. And pretty much every major decision that anyone makes in CAP has some kind of moral or ethical hint to it; even when it's the decision of whether or not to choose the amoral route. CAP is riddled with time old questions about philosophy and morality, which is part of the reason why it's so good. It's a testament to Mark's skill as an author that he is able to combine all of these elements so well in a story like this. 

 

Thanks.  What I've tried to do with most of these characters is to give some sort of internal challenge to grapple with, and that inevitably runs into the moral/ethical/philosophical dilemmas.  With Will, it's more interesting to me because he's evolving more rapidly.  Sometimes people say they'll change, try to change, but never really change (like Brad with his control issues).  But a guy who's almost 15 is more malleable.  He can learn from his mistakes.  

 

One of the biggest complaints I've gotten about Will is that his temper gets out of control.   This isn't unusual for an adolescent male.     Something I have some personal experience with.  But I find that can fade pretty quickly as a guy matures, and I think that can happen to Will.  

[methodwriter85]

I love Will, he's a great guy at heart. I just hope next time he realizes that sometimes, his own comfort comes at a great price to others. 

 

I honestly thought he'd get that when he started volunteering at the homeless shelter, but I don't think that lesson really came through to him. I think part of it was because his main connections there had been with guys he either wanted to sleep with, or guys that he used to get roofies and licenses from.

 

Maybe if Will did a Habitat for Humanity project for his spring break? I did one, and it was a pretty eye-opening experience. This is the 2000's when college competition became really cutthroat, and that's the kind of thing that people wanted to have on their college apps, so I figure something like that should be somewhere in Will's future. I'm pretty sure Menlo has the same kind of emphasis on humanitarian causes that HW has, so I'm hoping that Will absorbs that. Otherwise, I'm not really seeing how Will's the next Tonto Incarnate, because social activism and humanitarian causes were a big part of who Tonto was. We got a little glimpse of that when Will naievely tried to make things better for openly gay people in figure skating, but I hope we see more of that the older Will gets and the more aware he gets of the inequalities in life. I mean, he IS only 14. Not everybody is Matt Price at 14.

 

I'm also pretty sure there's a trip to Africa that upperclassmen Menlo students can do, so that could be an interesting way for Will to gain some perspective, too. Plus, Mark could hook Will up with some hot black guys. Will hasn't been with a black guy yet, right?

Edited April 17, 2013 by methodwriter85

[MJ85]

See...with most of the earlier stories, I could actually agree with Tim, at least to a point of seeing them more as stories with drama in them, rather than being deliberate soap operas. From Millenium on though, those are definitely soaps - and that dynamic seems to get pushed more and more.

Edited April 17, 2013 by MJ85

[Mark Arbour]

I honestly thought he'd get that when he started volunteering at the homeless shelter, but I don't think that lesson really came through to him. I think part of it was because his main connections there had been with guys he either wanted to sleep with, or guys that he used to get roofies and licenses from.

 

Maybe if Will did a Habitat for Humanity project for his spring break? I did one, and it was a pretty eye-opening experience. This is the 2000's when college competition became really cutthroat, and that's the kind of thing that people wanted to have on their college apps, so I figure something like that should be somewhere in Will's future. I'm pretty sure Menlo has the same kind of emphasis on humanitarian causes that HW has, so I'm hoping that Will absorbs that. Otherwise, I'm not really seeing how Will's the next Tonto Incarnate, because social activism and humanitarian causes were a big part of who Tonto was. We got a little glimpse of that when Will naievely tried to make things better for openly gay people in figure skating, but I hope we see more of that the older Will gets and the more aware he gets of the inequalities in life. I mean, he IS only 14. Not everybody is Matt Price at 14.

 

I'm also pretty sure there's a trip to Africa that upperclassmen Menlo students can do, so that could be an interesting way for Will to gain some perspective, too. Plus, Mark could hook Will up with some hot black guys. Will hasn't been with a black guy yet, right?

 

You make some good observations here.  I don't think Will is going to be all that worried about padding his CV.  Even though colleges are more competitive, he has enough influence behind him to get beyond that.  Remember that he has family connections with many of the most prestigious private universities, and JP is bound to have a lot of friends beyond Stanford.  I doubt that would weigh on his mind.  

[methodwriter85]

You make some good observations here.  I don't think Will is going to be all that worried about padding his CV.  Even though colleges are more competitive, he has enough influence behind him to get beyond that.  Remember that he has family connections with many of the most prestigious private universities, and JP is bound to have a lot of friends beyond Stanford.  I doubt that would weigh on his mind.  

 

  More to the point though, I hope Will eventually becomes the guy who WANTS to genuinely help those less fortunate than him beyond just buying a hot guy three Abercrombie polos. I think he will, especially if he's meant to be the next Tonto. And you've written Will as someone who's genuinely into school and genuinely interested in academic competition- would it really make sense that Will would be okay with getting into a school because of his Grandpa and not because he actually deserved to get in there? Remember his reaction to Darius not going to Anapolis because he realized that he didn't deserve that spot? It'd be serious hypocrisy if Will was in the same situation but decided to take that spot anyway, after applauding Darius so much for that choice.

 

  There's a happy medium between either being an Adderall-popping academic zombie who put themselves on a ton of extracurriculars to pad their CV's, and being a slacker who figured his connections would get him into whatever school he wanted to go to. Will strikes me as someone who'd take on a few extracurriculars that he was genuinely interested in and had the added bonus of looking good on his college resume. I don't see him going into heart palpatations over college admissions, but I also can't see him just completely lying back while ignoring the extracurriculars expectation and expecting J.P. and Brad's connections to do all the work for him.

 

   Plus, you gotta remember that Menlo does actually require community service. I know that public high schools are moving to require that now; it figures that private schools were the first do this.

 

   This is what Will is required to do for his sophomore year at Menlo:

 

Sophomore

Sophomores participate in a two-day retreat, as well as select from other community service opportunities, both on and off campus. The sophomore retreat includes one day of community service and one day of leadership training and service learning workshops. Each year the community service opportunities focus on one over-arching social issue. Sophomores also develop their P.A.C.T. in the spring. Sophomores complete 20 hours of community service.

 

     So Will has to do community service, although I actually think he'd be pretty keen to do it. This requirement screams "Habitat for Humanity" to me. I'd like for him to get into a volunteer opportunity where he didn't exploit the people he was supposed to be helping like he did with the Shelter. (I'm sorry, but rendering the services of the shelter kids to get fake I.D.'s and roofies IS exploitation, point blank.)

 

     Mark does bring up an interesting point about legacy admissions...here's a pretty cool article from M.I.T. that explains why they refuse to have them. I did speak to a friend who worked as a high school counselor in this era who said that the whole "Bush got into Yale with his horrible GPA" legacy admission deal started to become less of a factor in this time period, likely because of how competitive schools got once the Baby Boomers started sending their kids off to college.

 

    I mean, don't get me wrong- I get that it happens. Just...why exactly would Will depend on it if we've already seen that he's willing to go the extra mile to procure good grades? Wouldn't it stand to reason that he'd also take the advice of his guidance counselor and take on a few activities that speak of character building and leadership?

 

    Of course, he's still a sophomore...he hasn't even taken his PSAT's yet, so yeah, at this point, he wouldn't be worried  about putting extracurriculars on his CV yet. At the same time, Will can't exactly disregard it, since his school requires him to do a sophomore retreat and put in 20 hours of community service.

Edited April 17, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Rosenkrantz]

I agree with you about the school thing. Will would be offended by the idea the he had gotten by on his family's coattails. 

 

I do disagree with you about the community service. Habitat for Humanity would be cool, but I don't think that's what Will would choose. I think he'd go with something that he was actually concerned about, and though he cares about the community and people in need, it's not of much importance to him. Anything to do with water on the other hand... I think he'd be much more likely to choose Save the Bay or work with the Marine Science Institute. Or any other program that involved beach clean-up or restoration. 

[PrivateTim]

    I would love to see the kind of journey you're talking about here, but the likelihood of having a protagonist even dabbling in religion seems zero to nil. Even Gathan, who should have grown up in a religious household given the vibes that Wally and Clara gave off, seemed oddly not all that into relgion.

 

   Religion and philosphy just don't seem like things that Mark wants to put into his writing all that much.

 

You are the only person talking about "religion".

 

I keep talking about ethics, morality and the philosophy associated with those and you keep yammering on about "religion".

 

Mark has laid out many philosophical viewpoints and lots of moral and ethical dilemmas whether or not you choose to recognize it or acknowledge it. From JP conking the campus cop on the head all the way through Erik punching Will in the nose CAP has been full of actions that occur because of someone's ethical and moral point of view even if the person doesn't understand or even acknowledge that that is what they are doing.

 

And yes Mark it is literature and a monumental work at that. Ditto for Odyssey.

[Westie]

So, the next chapter has started.

 

What I find most interesting here is that we have had a 6 month "jump" in the story - this is the longest "between story" break that has happened since the start of Bloodlines.  The last 4 books (excluding "the box" because I think it sits really nicely to one side) were a mammoth undertaking that where story arcs seemed to run into one another.  We lost a little of the "historical" perspective and gained a character focussed perspective - which I guess is common to history genres when thing start to catch up to modern times.

 

There are several reasons that I do not think this qualifies as a soap opera (even though it may have some characteristics of that genre).  The first is that excepting the 4-book marathon that I have mentioned already, an awful lot has happened between books "off screen".  But my main reason, is just that this series is better than that.  If Mr Arbour once referred to it as soap like, then he was self deprecating.  This series IS literature.

 

Once the next chapter is published, we will see the whole series go over THREE MILLION words.  To put that in perspective, you can get 6 "war and peace" or 4 bibles (old and new testament) for that many words.  

 

Some of the worlds great literature gained reputation because it caused us to question our certain knowledge - codes of right and wrong, morality and faith.  If we are to judge Mark's stories in the same way, then for "paternity" alone, we have 88 pages dedicated to discussion from the nature of fatherhood and brotherhood, to critiques of society through to the meaning of success.  We have generated at least a story's length again in social commentary.

 

How methodwriter can argue that 

 

   

   Religion and philosphy just don't seem like things that Mark wants to put into his writing all that much.

 baffles me.

 

Just because is doesn't have the lable, doesn't mean we aren't discussing ethics when we talk about whether Brad ordering a "hit" on JJ's coach is "right" or "wrong".  And just becuase I don't mention "God" when I say its wrong to commit murder, doesn't mean that my view is not at least in some part governed by my own religious beliefs.  So when Jeremy says things "dont seem like things Mark wants to put into his writing", what he means is "I don't want him to write about that".  I know that Jeremy would much prefer this story to be a commentary on whether menlo boys would have worn a polo shirt or a v-neck shirt on a summers day and whether pastel colours were fashionable this season or next but for the rest of us this story is one of substance.  And for the record, the story is completely awesome.  

 

So no, I don't think what we are reading here is "soap opera".  And yes, I think this story does raise the "big questions".

 

As for where this story is headed, the title says it all.  9.11 is a generation defining moment.  Even for us in the UK, I can remember exactly where I was when the plane struck (latin class).  I know where I was when the first tower fell (getting high next to the college lake).  This was world defining, and the "war on terror" that followed touched the lives of billions because it wasnt just an American war.  Our Prime Minister Tony Blair stood "shoulder to shoulder" with George W.  Our troops fought and fell alongside yours. 

 

When Paya and I go to New York next year (finances permitting), visiting ground zero is a non-negotiable part of that visit - because that place is not only the place where thousands lost their lives, its also the "first domino" in a chain that hit people I personally know and care about.  I'm desperately hoping that Mark will capture this "ripple effect" in some way. Maybe a character who is abroad when it happens?

 

Anyway, great start to the series.

 

West

[methodwriter85]

When Paya and I go to New York next year (finances permitting), visiting ground zero is a non-negotiable part of that visit - because that place is not only the place where thousands lost their lives, its also the "first domino" in a chain that hit people I personally know and care about.  I'm desperately hoping that Mark will capture this "ripple effect" in some way. Maybe a character who is abroad when it happens?

West

 

Touching post there, Westie. I deeply regret that I did not go to Ground Zero when I visited NYC in 2002, just nine months after 9/11. I think at the time, I was more interested in tagging along like a puppy with this guy I had a massive crush on, plus at 16 I do not think I was in the emotional place to handle being at that site. When I heard from the people who had visited there, a lot of the little makeshift memorials were still there.

 

I also had a chance to see the original run of Rent, and I turned that down, too. Ugh. Although I think that was when Joey Fatone was in the cast, so I'm not too torn up about it.

Edited April 18, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

 

Once the next chapter is published, we will see the whole series go over THREE MILLION words.  To put that in perspective, you can get 6 "war and peace" or 4 bibles (old and new testament) for that many words.  

 

 

Holy shit, that's a lot of writing.  Wow.  

[methodwriter85]

   And to think, you've done it in 4 and a half years.

 

“So if they let me, there’s a Worlds meet in Germany in early September, and there’s another in October.”

 

 

"Worlds" is short for the World Figure Skating Championship, which took place in March in Bulgaria. The event you're referring to was the 2001 Nebelhorn Trophy. I'd just refer to it as being "there's an ISU competition in Germany in early September, and there's another in October." Although, that timeline beyond the Nebelhorn Trophy from September 4th through 7th hasn't been set. So I'm kind of confused on this, too.

 

I like Jeanine's New Jersey roots being brought up here, and that she's from Hoboken. I can buy that Jeanine was from north New Jersey- she doesn't really have that south Jersey/Philly/Shore vibe to her.

Edited April 18, 2013 by methodwriter85

[centexhairysub]

I hate when I agree with Private Tim but Mark has woven a great deal of morality, ethics, and philosophy throughout all of his stories.  While this can dovetail into religious area, it doesn't have to.  He is also right, both the CAP and the even better Bridgemont series are both works of true literary merit and should be treated as such.

 

I do differ with most of you on Will's behaviour because I think that Will is right.  Humans are not biologically designed to be monogamous and that is something that everyone in a committed relationship must work toward.  Will is not responsible for helping anyone else be or stay monogamous.  If any of the guys that decide to sleep with Will are in relationship with someone else; it is their responsibility to say no to Will and keep their hands off him, not the other way around.  I think that Will has demonstrated a great deal of care for other people in numerous ways but staying out of the bed of a guy that wants to sleep with him but is seeing someone else is not something that any fifteen year old is probably capable of. 

 

Marie's behaviour bothers me a great deal more than anything Will has done.  If there is anything that ties all of the CAP stories together it is the idea that family comes first.  I think that Marie really set out to let Eric know and used a conversation with John to accomplish that.  I have a feeling that the conversation with Claire that is coming is gonna be electric. 

[mmike1969]

Have we (Mark actually) gotten our sex tree done to the point to where Tiffany is the sister of the guy Brad slept with? Or was that still in the speculation phase?

[naaz]

Now, Marie. I thought she was pretty perfect. And Claire was feeling ill. Is she okay?

[methodwriter85]

Have we (Mark actually) gotten our sex tree done to the point to where Tiffany is the sister of the guy Brad slept with? Or was that still in the speculation phase?

 

Tiffany is the daughter of the guy that Brad slept with. Said guy went crazy in the 1980's and tried to bomb the White House in 1983 as part of the Weather Underground.

[rjo]

I agree with David, Marie has broken one of the basic rules of the family. Everyone knows that Claire wasn't sick. She needed to get Marie out of there and read her the riot act. After John did the right thing it should have followed for Marie to do also. Claire is tuned in to her father. JP could have been about to say something which Marie maybe would not forget for a long time.

 

On the second point I also agree with David. Will is maturing a piece at a time. It is not reasonable to think he would be all grown up. He is not the full grown Venus on a clam shell. I admit I have defended Will in the past. Time which given his actions may have been difficult to do. This last chapter shows us his adult thinking. Both Tony and Keith came to him. Again if a hot young man was at your door it would to hard to say no. For a almost 15 yo gay boy it would be even harder. If you think of all the things he has done since he moved to Paly, I think he has done really well.

[methodwriter85]

I spend most of my life in a university setting, where I hear administrators, faculty members, and the staff rant about the undergraduates and their hyper-charged libidos and party habits.  And I think to myself about how old they have become, and how if we could look back in time, how badly would they not have behaved.  

 

Of course, now they're older and they know better.  Or maybe they're just boring hypocrites.  ;-

 

 

It just confounds me that the Baby Boomer generation, who tore down the notion of "in loco parentis" when they were in college in the 1960's and 1970's, have basically tried to re-install it for the college students of the '00's and the early '10's. I remember when the University of Delaware sent letters to parents of students who did not live on campus, warning them of the annual block party to get the whole thing shut down. And from what I understand, it's not like binge-drinking has disapeared from college campuses- they just don't do it out in the open at big ragers anymore.

Edited April 19, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

A rule of writing:  Understand your readers.

 

Guess it makes sense that if I post a chapter on 4-20, not many people read it.  LMAO.