9.11

[Kitt]

I have to admit as much as I am looking forward to each chapter, as the dreadful day approaches my nerves get a little tighter every time I think about the story. I appreciate how so many of you feel, recalling the events as they pertained to you. Nothing I can imagine can compare to the way i felt as i watched the plane hit tower two from my upstairs window.

 

There are two things we all need to brace ourselves for beyond the event.  The effects of that day were widespread. Phones both land lines and cells were next to useless this close to ground zero. All air traffic was grounded for days, rail service in and around NYC either at a standstill or so overwhelmed trying to take up the slack it was impossible. Bridges were monitored closer than they ever have been before or since. The "Tunnel to Towers" marathon run was named for a first responder who literally donned his equipment and ran thru the Lincoln tunnel to ground zero because no traffic was able to move. Remembering the events as we watch thru Mark's eyes will be difficult.

 

The other thing we need to brace for is that Mark researches thoroughly and will not miss the details that never fail to pull at our emotions. Hang on tight people- we are in for a rough one i am sure!

Edited September 3, 2013 by Kitt

[PrivateTim]

I think Noah is going to end up being of the the people really hurt by all of this teen drama. I think Marie is really using him or at least started out using him to get back at Will. Can Noah survive socially in this atmosphere if Marie dumps him and Will doesn't stand behind him?

 

It looks like Will has another conquest in Cam. I sort of like this kid even though we don't know much about him. He seems shy and funny and like Alistair might prove to be someone that would do Will good to hang around with and enjoy spending time with him.

 

I just can't believe how Brad and Stef are acting. If JP's disapproval wasn't enough, which it should have been; then the fact that Darius, JJ, and Robbie are avoiding them as much as they apparently are should have been a big clue...

 

I had really hoped for the longest time that no one in the CAP universe would be hurt or killed in the events of 09/11 but everything about Mark's writing suggest that is not going to be the case; I do hope and pray that I am wrong... I have a scenario that keeps coming up in my head of what is going to happen; and will be sick if it is even close to being right. I am sure Mark already has everything about the next few chapters completed except for maybe some editing so I don't think any last minute invocations of prayer or begging is going to change what Mark has planned. I am sure this is going to be hanlded with grace, humility, and that special touch that Mark seems to bring to all of his stories.

 

No matter what happens, thanks for the ride; it has been a great one....

 

I think Will and Noah will get back to a good place because Will will understand that Noah was a victim here and he won't be willing to victimize him twice.

 

Cam seems nice, I hope Will can have a nice, normal relationship with him. I do hope that even in 2001 Will remains sensitive to the fact that not everyone can be out and that people come to the place of telling the world they are gay/bi in their own time and comfort level and that in a lot of cases it is one step at a time, first a few friends, then a few more, then immediate family, extended family and the rest of the world and it never really does stop,

 

Sometimes the more people are against you (Darius, JJ, JP, Robbie, etc) instead of moving you off your position, it actually entrenches you that much more. I think Brad is in that place right now and the emotion driven Stef is along for the ride.

 

I do get that we are going to lose some people that maybe we wish we didn't lose, but for the remaining people, family and friends, I think it will refocus people on what is important in life. The one thing I remember post 9-11 is how everyone seemed to get along for a while. There was a sense of unity and people treated each other a little nicer. I don't remember how long that lasted, a few weeks, a couple of months, but it is the one thing that sticks with me after the shock of the friends and acquaintances I lost.

[centexhairysub]

    This is random, but I'm watching a Waltons T.V. movie marathon. I just realized that the Danfields named their daughter after a character on the Waltons. The irony is hilarious. LOL.

 

     Although it does make sense, as The Waltons takes place in roughly the same area as the Danfields come from.

 

    I was more of a Little House on the Prairie fan growing up, although I vaguely remember The Waltons re-running on the Family Channel back in the 90's. It's so earnest, as opposed to the entertainingly campy over-the-top-ness of LHOTP:

 

 

I loved the Waltons...  It was one of my favorite shows growing up in the 70's and I still watch the re-runs at times...  I always hated Little House on the Prairie; I was always praying for a tornado to wipe them out and send them ontoward their Highway to Heaven....

[Mark Arbour]

I think Will and Noah will get back to a good place because Will will understand that Noah was a victim here and he won't be willing to victimize him twice.

 

Cam seems nice, I hope Will can have a nice, normal relationship with him. I do hope that even in 2001 Will remains sensitive to the fact that not everyone can be out and that people come to the place of telling the world they are gay/bi in their own time and comfort level and that in a lot of cases it is one step at a time, first a few friends, then a few more, then immediate family, extended family and the rest of the world and it never really does stop,

 

Sometimes the more people are against you (Darius, JJ, JP, Robbie, etc) instead of moving you off your position, it actually entrenches you that much more. I think Brad is in that place right now and the emotion driven Stef is along for the ride.

 

I do get that we are going to lose some people that maybe we wish we didn't lose, but for the remaining people, family and friends, I think it will refocus people on what is important in life. The one thing I remember post 9-11 is how everyone seemed to get along for a while. There was a sense of unity and people treated each other a little nicer. I don't remember how long that lasted, a few weeks, a couple of months, but it is the one thing that sticks with me after the shock of the friends and acquaintances I lost.

A really excellent post.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Mark Arbour

[methodwriter85]

I loved the Waltons...  It was one of my favorite shows growing up in the 70's and I still watch the re-runs at times...  I always hated Little House on the Prairie; I was always praying for a tornado to wipe them out and send them ontoward their Highway to Heaven....

 

Little House on the Prairie is fun to snark on. The show was just so damn campy, especially in the later years when it seemed like every week babies were being burned in fires and kids were being adopted left or right and Mimes were raping young girls.

 

I have to snicker though at watching the Waltons, because I can't help but think of the time Richard Thomas played Brooke Shields's crazy stalker in a T.V. movie:

 

 

Anyway, point being...it's pretty hilarious that Mary Ellen on the Walton's namesake is quite the nasty piece of work in our story, isn't it?

 

 

You crack me up. I'm making sure Tony survives the attacks just to annoy you. ;-) I'll send him off to Iraq later on (not really).

 

It's not that out of the question for Tony to wind up joining Iraq, though- he graduates college in '04 so it's still fairly early into Iraq, and I could see Tony seeing the military as a way to run away from himself.

 

I did figure that you're having a lot of Claremont kids that we've met joining up with Iraq at some point. Iraq is the next big event coming up- I can't see you not having the characters involved in it. Claremont seems like a place that'd have a lot of future Iraq veterans.

Edited September 3, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Kitt]

 

 

 

It's not that out of the question for Tony to wind up joining Iraq, though- he graduates college in '04 so it's still fairly early into Iraq, and I could see Tony seeing the military as a way to run away from himself.

 

I did figure that you're having a lot of Claremont kids that we've met joining up with Iraq at some point. Iraq is the next big event coming up- I can't see you not having the characters involved in it. Claremont seems like a place that'd have a lot of future Iraq veterans.

Tony wouldn't be the first to use the military's old policies to help hide being gay/bi.  Don't ask don't tell seems to fit right into his philosophy at this point.

 

I can see a lot of the appropriately aged kids from Claremont enlisting post 9/11. There was a surge in enlistments after the event, and while i am not sure its is true and not just perceptual there always seems to be a slightly more patriotic feel to smaller towns as compared to metropolis' like NYC.  I can see Claremont revamping some older health care facility to welcome recovering vets into the area, some of whom tend to stay close to their rehab facilities.  There is in fact several VA facilities in Ohio including Clermont County Community Based Outpatient Clinic (Cincinnati, OH).

[methodwriter85]

   Oh, I can TOTALLY see JP trying to revamp an old hospital facility or perhaps an Old Claremont mansion and turn it into a support center for veterans. He'd have Steven, Andre and Fritz on the back of his mind once Claremont youth start turning into war veterans.

[Kitt]

Maybe we shouldn't be giving him any bright ideas - he gets plenty of his own!

[Westie]

 

It's not that out of the question for Tony to wind up joining Iraq, though- he graduates college in '04 so it's still fairly early into Iraq, and I could see Tony seeing the military as a way to run away from himself.

 

I did figure that you're having a lot of Claremont kids that we've met joining up with Iraq at some point. Iraq is the next big event coming up- I can't see you not having the characters involved in it. Claremont seems like a place that'd have a lot of future Iraq veterans.

 

 

   Oh, I can TOTALLY see JP trying to revamp an old hospital facility or perhaps an Old Claremont mansion and turn it into a support center for veterans. He'd have Steven, Andre and Fritz on the back of his mind once Claremont youth start turning into war veterans.

 

J, you seem to be totally obsessed with this idea of so many people joining up.  Mark has provided you with evidence before of how there was no actual uptick in enlistments (see this thread, past comments).  It might just be that - shock, horror - we do not see this War Veteran outbreak that you keep harping on about  

[B1ue]

J, you seem to be totally obsessed with this idea of so many people joining up.  Mark has provided you with evidence before of how there was no actual uptick in enlistments (see this thread, past comments).  It might just be that - shock, horror - we do not see this War Veteran outbreak that you keep harping on about

You may want to check out my reply to that chart, as well. Basically, the damn thing makes no sense without the context it must have been placed in originally.

 

It also doesn't tally with my own memories and that of my siblings, one of which (along with her husband) was active duty shortly before and shortly after 9/11. Stop-loss, gotta love it. I'd like to look at some of the numbers with historical context included, to see how well my memories match actual enlistments. If, in fact, I am in error, the best explanation I can come up with is that while actual enlistments did not spike, the reasons for enlisting shifted. I was going to mention this upthread, but one reason small-town kids enlist in such numbers isn't an extra leavening of patriotism, but a lack of other options. College especially is a tough wall to climb without the financial boost of the GI bill, but bare escape might be enough for someone to raise their hand and swear in. But with the country moving into wartime footing, the risk/reward analysis might not favor that kind of enlistment, but would appeal to those that had something to prove to themselves, or their country's enemies.

 

All that said, I don't think Tony will enlist or seek a commission. Darius, maybe. He'll have something to prove, I think, but Tony doesn't strike me as someone of the correct class or mentality, and lacks Darius's potential motivation. I do think some kids of Clairmont will enlist, because of either patriotism or a burning desire to hit the city limit sign and not look back.

Edited September 5, 2013 by B1ue

[PrivateTim]

The DOD does not track reasons for enlistment, but there was an uptick in enlistments immediately post 9-11 (more quotas and goals were met than in previous periods) and the biggest difference was the quality of the enlistee as outlined in a GAO report.

 

The Demographics of Military Enlistment after 9/11

[methodwriter85]

    I'm not saying that it was like Pearl Harbour. I'm saying that in small towns like Claremont, people did join up, for the reasons that Blue listed. Note that I've shifted from saying that Will is going to have schoolmates that went to Iraq, to saying that Will is likely going to have buddies he's made in Claremont go off there. And the Claremont Hayes family in general fits the profile of the type of people who would go off, though I don't think Matt would go anywhere near it.

 

    The other bit of context I should add is that I'm from an area that has the Dover Airforce Base (it was where they flew in the bodies from Iraq) and Aberdeen MD Proving Ground in relatively close proximity, and UD had a pretty strong ROTC program, plus I live in an area of Delaware that has the state's Air National Guard and the Army Reserve all pretty close together. It was a pretty common sight to see guys in uniform walking around.

 

    And I was strongly imprinted by the memories of having a teacher at the school I ran cross-country for lose a son, plus a friend who went off to Iraq after getting caught pot dealing derailed his college scholarship plans. And again, the G.I. bill was pretty popular in this area, at both UD and at Wesley College in Dover, where I went to for my freshman year.

[Henson]

I was in the military from before 9-11 until 2010, including several years as an instructor, curriculum developer, and school manager.  I currently work as an engineer for a defense contractor.

 

Back in the day, before the all volunteer military, there was a small cadre of trained men that was designed to swell up quickly and impressively using low-skill barely trained draftees led by that cadre.  WWI is a great example of this concept, and several nations (such as Russia and Canada) still operate this way.  

 

Today, things are different.  The modern US military personnel system is simply unable to accept more than the planned-for quotas.  School classes  (and basic training/boot camp is considered a school by the military) are planned out on an annual basis each fiscal year based on desired end strength personnel numbers and growth/contraction models that are planned out years in advance.  The military doesn't see people as interchangeable legos - sorry to disappoint, but we're not a monolithic entity of like thinking small town conservatives who joined up to blow up ragheads cuz, you know, MERIKA.  They, just like any other company, have several specific job quotas they need filled, and use military schools to train people for those specific jobs.  These schools are a bottleneck, which is ok, because there has never been a need for a large influx of recruits with one exception, which I'll get to in a minute.  The US military of the time was designed to fight 2 1/2 Iraqs simultaneously.  If there was a sudden large influx of recruits due to 9-11, two things would have (and did) happen.  First, a lot of people got turned away, and second, people who were accepted wound up waiting several months for a school quota to come available.

 

Looking at the first of those, right after 9-11, the military was in the interesting position of turning away qualified recruits.  Lots of them.  At the same time, the quality of the people trying to enlist was going up - more college graduates trying to enlist, and for a brief time all four branches stopped granting waivers for things like medical and moral problems, or for not having a high school diploma.

 

Then Iraq happened.  The higher quality recruits kept coming to the Navy and Air Force because the economy was lackluster, but those jobs were harder to get because the Navy and Air Force were intentionally shrinking.  The Army, on the other hand, started having issues meeting recruiting goals for a couple reasons.  The first one, which is obvious, was Iraq visibly sucked.  The second one is that the Army and Marine Corps were trying to grow.  The Marines never really had problems getting "their kind" of recruit, but the Army started taking anyone who could breathe (at one point they were accepting ASVAB scores down to 17 - this from a test graded on a 100pt scale).  At the same time, certain critical skills were stop-lossed (as someone alluded to above) meaning that their enlistments were involuntarily extended.  That was because the schools couldn't keep up with the demand, and the majority of the new recruits didn't have the prerequisite skills needed to get into those schools in the first place.  That's how you wound up with submarine qualified Navy lieutenants doing reconstruction and public affairs work in Iraq, or Navy supply people standing guard at FOBs in Afghanistan.  That growth only lasted for about a year or two before they reached the goal and started to cut back down again.

 

There's a lot more to the modern military than combat arms (guys with guns).  Combat arms account for about 20% of the Army, and a much lower percentage of the military as a whole.  Everyone else is trained to do a specific technical job, from managing unit finances, to repairing specialized communications equipment and computer networks, to translating intelligence intercepts, to designing supply and logistics systems.  We run the gamut from nuclear engineers to pay clerks.  Just like any HR outfit, the military's personnel and manning centers don't see people as interchangeable parts.  They see job applicants who need to be filtered out and trained into a specific job opening.

 

Were there more people trying to enlist after 9-11?  Yes.  Did most of them get in?  No.  Not until Iraq.  The low quality of recruits in the middle of the decade is, in my opinion, the genesis of some of the gang related and sexual assault related problems the Army has had over the last several years - but this story doesn't really deal with that timeframe, does it?  You know who were getting into the military around 2002-2003?  College dropouts who ran out of money.  Maybe that's why you think there was this massive growth, because those are the people you were hanging around with in your comfortable suburban existence, but I'm telling you, the growth in the military at that time was very slow, and even stop-loss orders were specifically targeted to certain jobs.  The folks who joined after 9-11 were not the reason the military grew.  That well dried up during Iraq.  What was left was people who couldn't get jobs elsewhere, couldn't screen for the Navy and Air Force, and were left with the Army as their only option - lots and lots of inner-city folks.  Not suburbanites at all.  Well, that and a massive Reserves callup.  Most folks in the reserves are vets.

 

I could be wrong, but I think that over the time period we're discussing here, the percentage of the US population in the military continued to shrink.

 

This was long and rambling, but some of you folks have no real idea what you're talking about while remaining utterly convinced that something is so just because it seems to you as though it makes sense.  One person leaps immediately to mind, and annoyingly does this on most subjects in this forum ("I think it, therefore it must be so").  Well, guess what - the world is a complicated place, you don't know everything, and college alone doesn't prepare you for the world the way folks tell you it does.  I know, I've graduated from a few of them, spent over a decade in uniform, traveled all over the world, and somehow got a job as an engineer with a liberal arts degree (still haven't figured that one out).

 

The smartest people I ever met, I met in the military.  The dumbest people I ever met, I met in college - several of them were teaching.  Summa cum laude here, and I passed on law school so I could make real money, so I'm not some anti-intellectual conservative who wants to blow up brown people.  Just telling the truth.  Got questions?  Ask.  Don't make stuff up, try to convince everyone you're right, and in the process paint real people, veterans of the second most ridiculous war ever fought, as some sort of monolithic caricature.  It's offensive.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Henson

[scotchirish87]

Mark, have you been taking lessons from CJames on how to drag out the climax of a story?

[Henson]

Alright, that was a lot.  Sorry.

 

Numbers didn't go up from 9-11.  Quality did.  Then Iraq happened, the quality degraded for the Army (only), and they took everyone they could for about a year until they grew enough to start weeding out the idiots and non-conformers - but that uptick was measured in the tens of thousands.  Not anything significant compared with the overall population.

 

The real change was the reserves and national guard getting deployed, sometimes several times.  That brought it closer to home for some folks, but again, measured in tens of thousands.  Not a huge number of folks.

 

People TRIED to get military jobs, because no one else was hiring, but they largely failed unless they tried to join around 2004.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Henson

[B1ue]

Can't leave either JP or Will alone for five minutes, can you?

 

I'm not encouraged by how Brad is treating JJ. Darius has already written Brad off, as has Will, and now he's pushing away JJ. I can understand the view that a child's safety is more important than how much that child like's their parent, and I can see how Brad might still be in overreaction mode from the coach, but isn't going from "ignoring my kid" to "total overprotection" with no warning or transition the exact screw-up that led to Will acting out? I would think he'd have learned from that, but I suppose that would require him admitting he made a mistake.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how someone with that characterization plays out in the next couple of chapters, with his family scattered about and he can't get a hold of anyone.

[Mark Arbour]

Mark, have you been taking lessons from CJames on how to drag out the climax of a story?

 

Well, I don't feel too bad about that since I'm posting a chapter every four days or so.  But when it comes to sadism, CJ is my mentor.

[Mark Arbour]

Well, guess what - the world is a complicated place, you don't know everything, and college alone doesn't prepare you for the world the way folks tell you it does.  I know, I've graduated from a few of them, spent over a decade in uniform, traveled all over the world, and somehow got a job as an engineer with a liberal arts degree (still haven't figured that one out).

 

The smartest people I ever met, I met in the military.  The dumbest people I ever met, I met in college - several of them were teaching.  Summa cum laude here, and I passed on law school so I could make real money, so I'm not some anti-intellectual conservative who wants to blow up brown people.  Just telling the truth.  Got questions?  Ask.  Don't make stuff up, try to convince everyone you're right, and in the process paint real people, veterans of the second most ridiculous war ever fought, as some sort of monolithic caricature.  It's offensive.

 

Thanks for your post.  You gave me an entirely different way to look at military staffing, something I'd never really considered before.  I guess I had that WWI/II mentality too.  Now it's debunked. 

 

In a similar vein, while I agree with you about idiots in academia, I think your read of the purpose of college is off.  Some people have this idea that a four year degree is some sort of advanced vocational training.  In my world (the Business School), that is probably more accurate than in others, but the real purpose is to help an individual round out their knowledge, and to teach them vital skills like critical thinking. 

Can't leave either JP or Will alone for five minutes, can you?

 

I'm not encouraged by how Brad is treating JJ. Darius has already written Brad off, as has Will, and now he's pushing away JJ. I can understand the view that a child's safety is more important than how much that child like's their parent, and I can see how Brad might still be in overreaction mode from the coach, but isn't going from "ignoring my kid" to "total overprotection" with no warning or transition the exact screw-up that led to Will acting out? I would think he'd have learned from that, but I suppose that would require him admitting he made a mistake.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how someone with that characterization plays out in the next couple of chapters, with his family scattered about and he can't get a hold of anyone.

 

I left JP alone for half an hour.  Doesn't that count?

[centexhairysub]

Okay, I loved this latest chapter.  It showed how much JP and Will care for each other and also showed the bonds between Will, Darius, and JJ.  I think they are closer than most people realize even though they fight and bicker quite often.  I think that Will and Darius are in some ways opposite sides of the same coin.  They handle things in different ways but really care about family and friends. 

 

 

The scene with Will and JP at the college was just so well done.  I really like how Mark is able to show that JP is still relevant and important not just to the family but those in the academic community.  He is able to connect with students, even those that are not his, in a way that only the very best teachers are able to do...

 

 

JP will be off and running early in the morning to his meeting at NYU. This would seem to indicate that he will be safe and out of the danger zone. Of course, this is New York so there could be something else happen but I have to assume that he will be safe.

 

 

 

 

Will, Darius, Robbie, Jeanine, and Hank will all be on the observation deck on Tower 2 for the rehearsal. I know they are supposed to be there at 8:30 a.m. but I am surprised by this. I spoke to someone that worked in that tower and said they were really strict that no one other than employees had access to the observation deck before it opened at 9:30 a.m. Even if they are there, they would have about 15 minutes from the first tower being hit until tower 2 is struck.  I have to think that Hank's first reaction will be to head off to help those in the first tower and even though they are fighting, everyone else will be worried about Stef and Brad.  If they delay, there was one staircase left open in the second tower after it was struck.  That is why there were some that survived from the floors above where the plane hit on tower 2 versus none of tower 1, all the staircases on tower 1 were destroyed or blocked by the plane hitting the building.  Plus, a large number of people started to exit tower 2 after the first tower was struck. 

 

 

Stef and Brad seem to be in the biggest danger.  If they are in the area of the tower that is above where the plane struck, they are doomed.  No one from the area above where the plane struck survived in tower 1.  JJ is also in danger.  If he is still asleep with earplugs or something, how will he know to evacuate?  I don't know what they did but my understanding is that only three hotel employees and a few people that were taken into the hotel as a staging area were killed other than emergency personel when tower 3 was destroyed by the collapse of tower 1.  Almost everyone that was killed in the collapse of tower 3/Marriott Hotel were the fire fighters that were using it as a staging area to get into tower 1 and 2.  I don't remember exactly how many died but I know it was less than a hundred.  There was even a group that were in the hotel that escaped after the collapse, they were in an area that had been re-enforced after the bombing the decade before. 

 

 

I am both terrfied and excited to see where Mark is going to take us on this voyage into the past.  I have to wonder if we will see Will and Darius's night out before the tragedy of the next day....

[Mark Arbour]

I know they are supposed to be there at 8:30 a.m. but I am surprised by this. I spoke to someone that worked in that tower and said they were really strict that no one other than employees had access to the observation deck before it opened at 9:30 a.m.

 

I heard about that as well, but I'm assuming that event planners would have some leeway in this regard.  In any event, they do in this story.

[Daddydavek]

I am speculating that the actual day of the event is going to take more than the usual 6000 word average chapter and wonder if our esteemed author is planning a double chapter or a double post?   

 

Since Wade and Nana are coming up on the day of the wedding, I suspect that unless they left fairly early that they will be grounded as all aircraft were after the Pentagon was struck.  I found it odd that nothing was mentioned about Matt either (as I recall.)

 

Today is but the 6th and the trepidation is increasing.  

[Mark Arbour]

I am speculating that the actual day of the event is going to take more than the usual 6000 word average chapter and wonder if our esteemed author is planning a double chapter or a double post?   

 

Since Wade and Nana are coming up on the day of the wedding, I suspect that unless they left fairly early that they will be grounded as all aircraft were after the Pentagon was struck.  I found it odd that nothing was mentioned about Matt either (as I recall.)

 

Today is but the 6th and the trepidation is increasing.  

 

Matt, Nana, Wade, and Tiffany are all supposed to come up for the ceremony. 

 

It takes more than one chapter to get through 9-11, and they won't all be posted on 9-11. 

[methodwriter85]

.  Maybe that's why you think there was this massive growth, because those are the people you were hanging around with in your comfortable suburban existence, but I'm telling you, the growth in the military at that time was very slow, and even stop-loss orders were specifically targeted to certain jobs.  The folks who joined after 9-11 were not the reason the military grew.  That well dried up during Iraq.  What was left was people who couldn't get jobs elsewhere, couldn't screen for the Navy and Air Force, and were left with the Army as their only option - lots and lots of inner-city folks.  Not suburbanites at all.  Well, that and a massive Reserves callup.  Most folks in the reserves are vets.

 

The smartest people I ever met, I met in the military.  The dumbest people I ever met, I met in college - several of them were teaching.  Summa cum laude here, and I passed on law school so I could make real money, so I'm not some anti-intellectual conservative who wants to blow up brown people.  Just telling the truth.  Got questions?  Ask.  Don't make stuff up, try to convince everyone you're right, and in the process paint real people, veterans of the second most ridiculous war ever fought, as some sort of monolithic caricature.  It's offensive.

 

     Wow. That was a pretty well-deserved bitchslap. I get your point, and in a previous post, I did point out that I grew up in an area that was close to military bases (Dover AFB, Aberdeen Proving Ground, and we're not that far away from Fort Dixx which was still open when I was in high school), and not only that, those two bases were one of the lucky bases that are actually expanding as per BRAC. Aberdeen especially seems targeted for a big expansion, with the city of Newark, DE trying to reap the benefits of that by upgrading their rail line that goes through Aberdeen. Also, I also lived pretty close to where the Reserves and Air National Guard are, which probably explains why I saw so many guys walking around in uniform not just at college but just around malls and the like.

 

      Anyway, I didn't have a comfortable surburban existence. I did grow up in the blue-collar suburban town of Bear, DE, though I wound up going to high school with mostly middle class/upper middle class kids. But in any event, this pile-on did actually make me re-think about why I have this perception, when it seems like other people my age don't have the perception of seeing tons of military guys around and haven't had at least one friend go off to Iraq.

 

      You must have REALLY hated Green Day's Wake Me Up When September Ends video. It's basically about a poor small-town teenager who goes off to Iraq and his girlfriend who waits behind.

 

      I protested the war while seeing friends go off, and reading about deaths in the newspaper, which probably has created some very strong emotional ties to this subject, and the war is the most tangential reminder of 9/11 because it went on for a decade. I have this strong desire to see Iraq played out in the story, and I'm just trying to think of ways for it to plausible. Since Mark doesn't think it likely that any of the grandkids would go, and it not being likely for their prep school kids to go, I figured it would make sense to get at Iraq through the Claremont side of the story, because Claremont has had a history of strong miitary involvement. I spent some time in a similiar kind of town to Claremont (depressed Rust Belt town), and I also noticed that the town had a strong military involvement with all the major conflicts going from the War of 1812 to Iraq. I've kind of felt like that's probably at least one of the reasons why Mark's had Will making friends with Claremont people, so that it becomes possible for him to know people that go off to Iraq.

 

      Anyway...

 

 

I'm not encouraged by how Brad is treating JJ. Darius has already written Brad off, as has Will, and now he's pushing away JJ.

 

      Brad's lucky that JJ wouldn't try to get an emancipation like Will would. JJ wouldn't want the press, and it's pretty easy to avoid Brad anyway, especially when he goes off to competitions with Tiffany anyway.

 

 

I think it's fun to watch the dynamics between the brothers gel as they get older. Darius, a cool but private guy; Will, playful, intense, and hyper-motivated; and JJ, the bitchy diva who actually does have sophisticated feelings beneath the veneer.

 

      It's really cool we get to see that. We kinda sped through Brad, Ace, and Bily's growing up (and then Billy died at JJ's age), while we're getting to see this trio of brothers growing up. As for JJ...I kinda see him as a male mix of Teenaged Erica Kane (childish spoiled brat who desires fame so strongly and is always searching for that "Corner of Hollywood and Vine") and Blair Warner (preppy brat who is very prissy and uptight but does care very deep down.)

Edited September 6, 2013 by methodwriter85

[samjones1]

 

 

In a similar vein, while I agree with you about idiots in academia, I think your read of the purpose of college is off.  Some people have this idea that a four year degree is some sort of advanced vocational training.  In my world (the Business School), that is probably more accurate than in others, but the real purpose is to help an individual round out their knowledge, and to teach them vital skills like critical thinking. 

 

 

 

The business school!?!?!  I literally just emitted a squeal of joy! 

 

I am, like everyone else, on tenterhooks waiting to see how the rest of this story plays out.  You've set a brilliant stage and now it just remains to see what you've come up with as a resolution.  I'm sure it's going to be, at the very least, thought-provoking and interesting!

[MJ85]

It takes more than one chapter to get through 9-11, and they won't all be posted on 9-11.

Wrong answer.