9.11

[Kitt]

There are always going to be terms that a particular group takes offense to.  In the 1900's when immigration was so heavy they devoted an entire island in NY harbor to processing immigrants, the term WOP (with out papers) was coined. Once people got to ethnic neighborhoods WOP became one of the worst insults you could toss at an immigrant. Now you seldom hear the term in spite of the extent of illegal immigration.

 

Any term that intentionally ( or unintentionally ) is taken as derogatory is only given life by people allowing themselves to be offended by them.  My grandmother refused to be intimidated by being called a WOP, my neighbor refuses to be upset at the term "nigger" and I believe people with compromised health status ( regardless of what compromises it ) should react similarly to "clean" and any other term.  

 

 Funny tho - I just visited my oncologist - and was pronounced "clean" meaning my cancer had not returned. Made me feel pretty good, but would not make me think the lady who unfortunately had less happy news "dirty".   As I understand the term it is short for having "a clean bill of health".  That is something I would wish for everyone.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Kitt

[Carlos Hazday]

Told ya, point of personal preference.......

 

Last week someone used the N word in Spanish in front of me not realizing It is my original language. He used it to refer to a female employee at his place of employment. When I told him he really should not use that word he tried to tell me it meant African ( damn, just 'cause I've got white skin and green eyes I can't be part Hispanic? ) at that point I got really pissed, made him aware I was completely fluent, found the office manager and related the story and then found his fellow employee he was talking about and let her know what was being said. I hope he got in trouble.

 

sorry but I believe in the golden rule and I would take offense at someone calling me a faggot so I work very hard trying to treat others as I would like to be treated.  I'll climb down again and this time will remain away from the box. We agree to disagree.

[methodwriter85]

I said it a bit ago and I'll say it again. What makes JJ different in this story is that he is actually the most normal main character there is. It is the others who are the anomalies, not him.

 

    I think the thing to keep in mind about JJ is that he's pretty much been raised in a world that has a lot of conservative values, or at least tries to come off as very family-friendly, Disney-image values. JJ's being told by the world he inhabits that it's not okay to use drugs, that it's not okay to have pre-marital sex, and that he must be a sexless, vice-free Disney on Ice character. It's pretty contrary to the world that the CAP family inhabits, where it's okay to sleep with anybody who breathes as long as you stay safe, use drugs on a regular basis, have little-to-no filter, and occasionally whack someone off if they're a threat to the family.

 

     I think it's the reason why, if you've noticed, JJ really hasn't been that eager for his family to show up to his competitions. I think JJ prefers to keep those two worlds separate, which I think played into why JJ got so unhinged during the 2000 Norway Junior Grand Prix. Will really embarrassed him.

 

 

I couldn't disagree with you more.  I'm not going to let political correctness influence a story to the point that it becomes anachronistic, and that's why I've used non-PC terms throughout the saga.  Whether it's "negros" and "coloreds" in Chronicles, "Japs" in The Box, or other sundry insulting terms, they belong in the era in which they were used.  I don't think their use perpetuates attitudes, I think they form a valuable contrast for where we've been, and how much progress has been made.  Looking at something in isolation is a lot less valuable than looking at a trend, IMHO.

 

       Right now it seems like the word "retarded" is slowly but steadily becoming a word we can't say. I remember "That's retarded" being a pretty common phrase up to the mid-2000's, and during the late 2000's and early 2010's, I noticed that the word started to get bleeped out on TV shows. I even remember seeing a protest about the word on campus at UD once.

 

      "Handicapped" isn't even politically correct anymore...I think we have to say "differently-abled."

 

 

I don't think Cody really has to change his lifestyle all that much. He's not contemplating becoming a primary caregiver here, he's talking about being more involved. I think a "divorced husband" model (weekend visits) would probably jive more with what he had planned

 

     I think that's fine if that's where he wants to go, but Cody should not in any way consider himself a father if he basically treats Madison like she's his niece that he visits every once in awhile. Parenting is not a part-time job that you slip into doing when it's convenient. Way too many kids have been fucked up by "parents" who only deign to interact with them when it's good for their schedule.

 

    That Cody doesn't really intend to change his lifestyle all that much or do much more than weekend visits pretty much says it all, don't you think? If he wants to claim Maddy as his daughter, he needs to actually be a father and not just an uncle who shows up for weekend visits to play with her and give her toys. You're either all in or you're not in at all.

 

    Unless what you're trying to convey here is that Cody wants to get his feet wet first, by showing up in Maddy's life to get her used to him and vice versa, and not just suddenly setting up a bedroom for her to live at his house. Like he's dipping a toe in the water before jumping in.

Edited October 10, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Henson]

When something occurs in a story, it is not the author doing the thing.  It is the character.  We didn't think that Mark was physically destroying Brad and Robbie's property during Will's epic tantrum.  It was the author using Will's actions to drive story and character.  Would we have understood the level of upset Will was expressing if he hadn't expressed it in that way?  The characters do what they do to drive story and setting, and they are not a reflection of what Mark personally feels is appropriate or not.

 

Likewise, when a term gets used by a character in a fictional story, it is not the author using the term.  It is the character using that term, and not all characters necessarily reflect the mores of the author 100% of the time.  Being offended by this use of terminology, a use which rings very true to someone of the age group and demographic the two characters are described as filling, is precisely the same as being offended by Mark Twain's use of Nigger as a descriptor for Jim, the unquestioned hero of his story, or of Injun for Joe in those same stories.  It's silly, self-absorbed, and petulant.  #firstworldproblems indeed.

 

The underlying issue of HIV stigma will not be solved, or even dented, by shaming exceptional authors for writing characters into fictional stories who use the slang common in 2001 any more than issues of race will be solved by censoring the other Mark.  Now if Mark says the same to you in a PM, or through Grindr, or posts in the forum about how perfectly fine it is for real humans to speak this way to each other in current day, feel free to open the gunports.  I'll join ya.

[Carlos Hazday]

OK, I opened up a hornets' nest . Sorry but the character says what the author wants him to say so final responsibility rests with the writer. Twain may have used words that are offensive now but not back then  so it's not even close. Calling someone who is HIV negative clean implies that those of US who are positive are un-clean.

 

Y'all talk so much about this right or that approach but let me tell you something, I have lived with The virus in my system for about 30 years now and I find it DAMN offensive. Yes some of it may be survivor's guilt on my part but this has nothing to do with political correctness gone berserk. That's a copout Marc. It's all about caring about what our fellow humans feel and how our words and actions affect them. When you stop thinking about others you lose part of your humanity. 

 

So go ahead and justify it any way you want. Marc wrote the words and he offended ME. Just a different type of bullying but I'm not the type to sit back and allow anyone to abuse me. I will continue to read but I am not going to post just happy thoughts all the time and stay quiet when I see something that is wrong. And yes, it was wrong of him to make that comment because he offended me and that is enough to make it wrong.

[Henson]

Perhaps, just maybe, you're not the only person in this forum living with HIV - for a decade even?  Don't presume to judge us as ignorant simply for committing the sin of disagreeing with your wisdom.

[KevinD]

I happen to agree with Mark's comments about why he writes the stories the way that he does. I can also empathize with Carlos' feelings.  At the end of the day we are each entitled to our own opinions that have been formed by our individual life experiences. I personally believe that we have become in many ways, way too sensitive - obviously my personal feelings and not meant to discount Carlos or others that share his viewpoint.  All we can do realistically is agree that we will disagree on many areas.

 

Everyone has the right to their own opinions and should share them in a civil manner, but at the end of the day with a topic like this, the only thing that any of us can choose to do is simply not read/view material that we find objectionable.

 

Thank you Mark for your writings and I can only hope that you do not take any criticisms or comments personally, and that you will continue to entertain the vast majority of your readers that have been following your stories…

[Carlos Hazday]

Dude, if I thought I was the only HIV + person around here I would be an idiot of the first magnitude.

 

I have not judged you or anyone else as ignorant and resent your suggesting I did. I expressed my opinion, strongly I admit, to Marc about something he wrote which I thought was not correct. I did not want it to be personal and involve anyone's status. But I am a hothead and I refuse to back down, and the comment was offensive to ME.  

 

You may be fine with it and the rest of the entire POZ population around here may feel as you do, but I don't and nothing anyone says will make me shut up and walk away when I feel someone has demeaned me and insulted me by implying I'm un-clean. I was treated like a second class citizen too often back in the 80's and it still happens sporadically, and I will not back off when I feel insulted.

 

Those experiences are what has colored my views and provided me with what you so dismissively label as my wisdom. You can disagree with me all you want, I'm cool with that; but anyone your age that is infected and is not subject to ridicule can thank me and the rest of us old farts, dead or alive, for fighting the battles that allow kids your age not to go through what we went through.

 

God I hate agreeing with my parents about how much a little living will sober up our thoughts and actions.

 

and Kevin, there's not a chance in hell that I would stop reading Mark's stories over this. I think he made a mistake, pointed it out and he disagreed with me. I'm perfectly fine with that.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Carlos H

[B1ue]

    I think the thing to keep in mind about JJ is that he's pretty much been raised in a world that has a lot of conservative values, or at least tries to come off as very family-friendly, Disney-image values. JJ's being told by the world he inhabits that it's not okay to use drugs, that it's not okay to have pre-marital sex, and that he must be a sexless, vice-free Disney on Ice character. It's pretty contrary to the world that the CAP family inhabits, where it's okay to sleep with anybody who breathes as long as you stay safe, use drugs on a regular basis, have little-to-no filter, and occasionally whack someone off if they're a threat to the family.

Is it that his world is telling him not to do any of these things, or simply don't get caught doing them? There's a pretty big difference between those two states, one that encourages a level of hypocrisy that moist of us can relate to strongly from one point in our lives or another.

 

JJ may be a more interesting narrator, once he ages a little, than I'd been giving him credit for.

 

You may be fine with it and the rest of the entire POZ population around here may feel as you do, but I don't and nothing anyone says will make me shut up and walk away when I feel someone has demeaned me and insulted me by implying I'm un-clean. I was treated like a second class citizen too often back in the 80's and it still happens sporadically, and I will not back off when I feel insulted.

 

Those experiences are what has colored my views and provided me with what you so dismissively label as my wisdom. You can disagree with me all you want, I'm cool with that; but anyone your age that is infected and is not subject to ridicule can thank me and the rest of us old farts, dead or alive, for fighting the battles that allow kids your age not to go through what we went through.

 

God I hate agreeing with my parents about how much a little living will sober up our thoughts and actions.

 

And yet, that little living seems to have made you angrier rather than sober, as, by your own words, you're a hothead who's is speaking out based on your own personal experiences.

 

As to this issue, and not being able to use euphemisms such as "clean" when enquiring after HIV or related STD status, I call bullshit. Not being willing to confront that issue before having sex with someone, for fear of hurting their feelings, is really stupid. Anyone likely to take offense to that is someone that it's probably not a good idea to sleep with anyways, especially without a condom.

 

Personally, I think that bed-hopping like Will is doing at all is pretty damn stupid, but if he's going to do that, I think it's necessary to develop a certain amount of callousness when confronting this particular issue. Being able to talk about STD status is needed. It isn't nice, it isn't polite, but the hell with anyone that would value that over their own health.

 

I also call bullshit that we, gay men in general, don't and haven't dealt with the societal after effects of HIV regardless of our own status. You're correct, those of us with negative status don't live it like those that do. But there is still a perception of assumed HIV status that clings to all homosexual men, and while we have you to thank for it being easier now than it was in the 50's, we also know who we have to thank for HIV and homosexual men being linked in the public's mind.

[Mark Arbour]

Is it that his world is telling him not to do any of these things, or simply don't get caught doing them? There's a pretty big difference between those two states, one that encourages a level of hypocrisy that moist of us can relate to strongly from one point in our lives or another.

 

JJ may be a more interesting narrator, once he ages a little, than I'd been giving him credit for.

 

 

And yet, that little living seems to have made you angrier rather than sober, as, by your own words, you're a hothead who's is speaking out based on your own personal experiences.

 

As to this issue, and not being able to use euphemisms such as "clean" when enquiring after HIV or related STD status, I call bullshit. Not being willing to confront that issue before having sex with someone, for fear of hurting their feelings, is really stupid. Anyone likely to take offense to that is someone that it's probably not a good idea to sleep with anyways, especially without a condom.

 

Personally, I think that bed-hopping like Will is doing at all is pretty damn stupid, but if he's going to do that, I think it's necessary to develop a certain amount of callousness when confronting this particular issue. Being able to talk about STD status is needed. It isn't nice, it isn't polite, but the hell with anyone that would value that over their own health.

 

I also call bullshit that we, gay men in general, don't and haven't dealt with the societal after effects of HIV regardless of our own status. You're correct, those of us with negative status don't live it like those that do. But there is still a perception of assumed HIV status that clings to all homosexual men, and while we have you to thank for it being easier now than it was in the 50's, we also know who we have to thank for HIV and homosexual men being linked in the public's mind.

 

I was wondering how long it was going to take you to chime in on this issue.  You must be busy these days.

 

I think JJ is ultimately going to fall into the "don't get caught doing it" category, because that's what damn near all those "Disney-type" clean cut assholes do.    Just sayin'. 

[PrivateTim]

You may be fine with it and the rest of the entire POZ population around here may feel as you do, but I don't and nothing anyone says will make me shut up and walk away when I feel someone has demeaned me and insulted me by implying I'm un-clean. I was treated like a second class citizen too often back in the 80's and it still happens sporadically, and I will not back off when I feel insulted.

 

Those experiences are what has colored my views and provided me with what you so dismissively label as my wisdom. You can disagree with me all you want, I'm cool with that; but anyone your age that is infected and is not subject to ridicule can thank me and the rest of us old farts, dead or alive, for fighting the battles that allow kids your age not to go through what we went through.

 

God I hate agreeing with my parents about how much a little living will sober up our thoughts and actions.

 

and Kevin, there's not a chance in hell that I would stop reading Mark's stories over this. I think he made a mistake, pointed it out and he disagreed with me. I'm perfectly fine with that.

 

Here's a newsflash you can feel insulted, offended and wronged.....  but still wrong in what you are saying.

 

I am going to guess you don't use Grindr and Jack'd a lot, but if you did you'd see a lot of guys, maybe most, are still asking guys if they are "clean" and many ask about "D&D free" and clean doesn't just mean HIV+, but it also means any of the rather nasty venereal diseases and sexually transmitted diseases out there right now that actually worry people more than HIV.

 

And don't kid yourself that the young guy who becomes HIV+ is getting treated nicer or better, they still become pariahs in large swaths of the gay community along with old guys, fat guys, Asian guys and the horribly unfortunate fat, old Asian guys.

 

Mark did not make a mistake, he wrote it the way it happens. If he chooses to write about Stanford's queer studies program I'll be horribly offended because I find the word queer horribly offensive, it would be akin to Stanford having a "nigger studies" program. But me choosing to be offended doesn't change the reality that that is what it is and what it is called.

[Mark Arbour]

 

...they still become pariahs in large swaths of the gay community along with old guys, fat guys, Asian guys and the horribly unfortunate fat, old Asian guys.

 

 

 

And I was wondering when you'd chime in too. 

 

God, I laughed my ass off at that line.  I'll probably get flamed for it, but I did. 

[TetRefine]

And I was wondering when you'd chime in too. 

 

God, I laughed my ass off at that line.  I'll probably get flamed for it, but I did. 

 

I don't really get why Asians get written off in the gay world, especially the bar/club scene. I understand the old guys and fat guys, but why Asians? I have run into and had some fun with a couple of very attractive Asian guys who blow the supposed "pretty white boys" out of the water. Maybe I just got so bored of white people growing up that I prefer to branch out.  

 

But can anyone explain to me why they think Asians are so marginalized in the gay world? I have my theories but I'm curious as to what others have to say. I hope I don't derail the thread from the story. Sorry if I do, lol.

[Mark Arbour]

I don't really get why Asians get written off in the gay world, especially the bar/club scene. I understand the old guys and fat guys, but why Asians? I have run into and had some fun with a couple of very attractive Asian guys who blow the supposed "pretty white boys" out of the water. Maybe I just got so bored of white people growing up that I prefer to branch out.

 

But can anyone explain to me why they think Asians are so marginalized in the gay world? I have my theories but I'm curious as to what others have to say. I hope I don't derail the thread from the story. Sorry if I do, lol.

 

Yeah, because you worry about that, derailing threads. 

 

I'm curious to know why that is too. 

[B1ue]

Only one thing I can think of.

 

Hmm, how can I put this delicately?

 

You know the stereotype about black men, as far as their basic sexual assets? Well, reverse that.

 

Note, I don't actually think it to be true, and even if it was, it's not something I care about, but I have certainly heard people spread it around.

 

Edit: I have also heard about a tendency for Asian guys to specifically not date other Asian guys, preferring Latino or White guys. I can't really say I've conducted any kind of survey, but it's also something I've heard (even unto the point of reading blog articles decrying it).

Edited October 11, 2013 by B1ue

[methodwriter85]

     I'll admit being Asian and not really being attracted to other Asian guys. Although it's funny...because I'm filipino, more often than not people think I'm Mexican or something (as Carlos Mencia once joked about Filipinos, we're natives that got banged by Spainards)...I don't automatically register as "Asian" to people like Chinese or Korean guys do. For me, I think it's more because I'm not into the small, delicate builds that most Asian guys have. I also think it's because, being that I've grown up mostly around white people, it's what I grew up being attracted to. If I had grown up in California, which has some very huge Asian populations, I might have a different view.

 

     Craiglist is interesting to read though in this regard...I've noticed that black men get dissed waaaayyyy more than Asian/Latino guys, especially in the South. (I read Craigslist to check out free, unvirused porn, okay? Don't judge.) I can't tell you how many times I've seen "White male for white male only". I personally don't find it offensive...you're attracted to what you're attracted to. I have a white friend who loves white/black guys like Corbin Bleu. I know black people that I've only see with white people. I've known black people who would NEVER date  white person. I've been with guys who clearly had a fetish for Asian guys. I knew a short, fat, effeminate Latino guy with long hair who was dating a popular football player in high school. It's all what turns your crank.

 

     However, if we're talking about people that are going to treat other people like pariahs for being fat, old, Asian, black, latino...basically for being anything but a young white Abercrombie and Fitch type...they're shitty people not worth your time.

 

 

I think JJ is ultimately going to fall into the "don't get caught doing it" category, because that's what damn near all those "Disney-type" clean cut assholes do.    Just sayin'.

 

*cough* Zac Efron *cough*  In all seriousness, I think for now, when JJ's 15/nearly 16 and not very developed, he'll be okay with following the rules. Given the glimpses of what we've seen from JJ, he's interested in sex, but it's not a prevailing thought in his head like it is in Will's, or in Matt's. That'll probably change by the time he's 17/18, and it'll be interesting to see how he deals with that.

Edited October 11, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Henson]

This is anecdotal, but my experience as a young guy in the Navy in San Diego and Florida was that young Asian guys there and then had a tendency to think "let's get married and have babies!" after only one or two dates, or even just after hooking up. DC seems much more chill. I'm a tall hairy white guy who actually likes Asians, and my body type seems to be pretty popular with them - I've always chalked it up to guys idealizing a body type they'll never have themselves. I've learned to make it very clear ahead of time if long term dating isn't in the cards, and even then I get younger Asian guys who call/text me at work just to chat about life's woes weeks after a hookup.

 

And yes, mainland Asians in my experience run smaller, as do Japanese/Thai/Indonesians. I don't mind that, but I'm not necessarily overawed by huge members. Other islanders, not so small. Philippino/Samoan can pack some nice surprises.

[methodwriter85]

This is anecdotal, but my experience as a young guy in the Navy in San Diego and Florida was that young Asian guys there and then had a tendency to think "let's get married and have babies!" after only one or two dates, or even just after hooking up. DC seems much more chill. I'm a tall hairy white guy who actually likes Asians, and my body type seems to be pretty popular with them - I've always chalked it up to guys idealizing a body type they'll never have themselves

 

      I'll totally admit to really lusting after guys who are at least 6'1" with long, muscular legs, as my height got frozen at 5'5". I stopped growing in 8th grade. Although luckily my broad shoulders made up for that and kept me from looking like a shrimp.

 

      I think the "let's get married and have babies" mindset is part of the really conservative mindset that a lot of Asians have. They're similiar in regards to Latinos about having families. I stand out because I have no intention of having one.

 

      I think in general though, Northern people are much more reluctant to have kids and start families. I have friends from high school who have kids, but the bulk of my mid/late-20something friends don't, even those that are married. I think if this was the North twenty years ago, or if I was living in Texas, it'd be a lot different. This comedian made a joke once about how, in the South, you're an old maid if you're not married with kids by 28. Meanwhile, in the North, if a woman gets pregnant at 28, they'll go, "But she had such a bright future." LOL.

 

      To bring it back to CAP...I think Will and Darius will probably have families by the time they're in their mid-20's, which for Darius will be circa 2007, and Will in circa 2011. JJ, I figure, won't settle down until his 30's, if he ever does. I kinda figure he'll be a jet-setting traveler type, never getting serious or putting down roots with anybody.

Edited October 11, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Daddydavek]

 

   ....

 

      To bring it back to CAP...I think Will and Darius will probably have families by the time they're in their mid-20's, which for Darius will be circa 2007, and Will in circa 2011. JJ, I figure, won't settle down until his 30's, if he ever does. I kinda figure he'll be a jet-setting traveler type, never getting serious or putting down roots with anybody.

 

Life in the 21st century is too full of surprises to guess when anyone finds a life mate and settles down.  Circa 2011 is 10 years in the future in the CAP universe and I'd rather speculate about the next few months than a far distant future.   So again my questions are more like, will Will and family go to Hawaii for Thanksgiving and will it still be cool between him and his island hottie?   Or how does the whole thing with Maddie shake out, or even does Brad have another explosion of grief after the memorial for Robbie that freaks everyone out?

 

Wade still has to face his mother over his father's memorial and Elizabeth is not known to be kind, gentle or agreeable.  

 

I think Mark has left us with a target rich environment and he can pick and choose any of them as he spins out the rest of this segment of the family saga.  

[Kitt]

  Circa 2011 is 10 years in the future in the CAP universe and I'd rather speculate about the next few months than a far distant future.    

We have enough trouble figuring Mark out in the next few days, let alone months or 10 years!

[methodwriter85]

Life in the 21st century is too full of surprises to guess when anyone finds a life mate and settles down.  Circa 2011 is 10 years in the future in the CAP universe and I'd rather speculate about the next few months than a far distant future.

 

     That's just the way I think about life. I'm already planning my 50th summer. I want to do a road trip, although since my actual 50th birthday will be in December of 2035, it'd be better for me to save it for the summer of 2036. I'm really fascinated at the thought of exploring ghost towns in the prairie. I'd also like to see the ghost town that was once Detroit. At the rate it's emptying, the population should be about the size of present-day Pittsburgh by that time.

Edited October 12, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

Just a quick answer so as to not sidetrack the conversation too much.....

 

I've noticed that different gay areas have their own "zeitgeist" for lack of a better term (tone, tenor, flavor?).

 

I saw more "salt and pepper" couples in the ATL than I had ever seen in LA. I've seen very few in LA. SF was an older scene, very few spots for youngin's (thank gawd for JR's when I was in college), NYC had its quirks and DC too. LA obviously has a large Asian population and a large Hispanic population. There were club nights specifically for Asians like Buddha Lounge and GAMeBoi, Club Chilie and Rebelde for Latin, and of course the various, leather, daddy, etc club nights....

 

Anyway, to the point.... a lot of Asian guys don't like Asians, they only like white guys (potato queens), but the white guys they like (twinks) are never the white guys that like them (older white guys, rice queens). It can be complicated.... then there are the Asians guys who ONLY like Asians (sticky rice) and give crap to any Asian who dates Hispanic guys (bean queen) and white guys.

 

Then of course the older white guys who date the Asian twinks get the double whammy of being chicken hawks and rice queens.

 

Like I said...  LA is a complicated scene...

[methodwriter85]

Just a quick answer so as to not sidetrack the conversation too much.....

 

I've noticed that different gay areas have their own "zeitgeist" for lack of a better term (tone, tenor, flavor?).

 

I saw more "salt and pepper" couples in the ATL than I had ever seen in LA. I've seen very few in LA. SF was an older scene, very few spots for youngin's (thank gawd for JR's when I was in college), NYC had its quirks and DC too. LA obviously has a large Asian population and a large Hispanic population. There were club nights specifically for Asians like Buddha Lounge and GAMeBoi, Club Chilie and Rebelde for Latin, and of course the various, leather, daddy, etc club nights....

 

Anyway, to the point.... a lot of Asian guys don't like Asians, they only like white guys (potato queens), but the white guys they like (twinks) are never the white guys that like them (older white guys, rice queens). It can be complicated.... then there are the Asians guys who ONLY like Asians (sticky rice) and give crap to any Asian who dates Hispanic guys (bean queen) and white guys.

 

Then of course the older white guys who date the Asian twinks get the double whammy of being chicken hawks and rice queens.

 

Like I said...  LA is a complicated scene...

 

      You make me really glad that I'm mainly friends with straight guys. Wow. What a rigid hierarchy. Can't people just be people? Can't people just like what they like without getting a demeaning label? (Okay, I'll admit I'm a little hypocritical on that one given what I've said about how it creeps me out when 18-year olds have sex with men old enough to be their fathers.)

 

      Maybe it's just a city thing. In the suburbs and/or small towns I grew up in, people tend to be a bit more relaxed than that. I hung out with white twinks, with straight-acting guys, with big effeminate Latino types, with older gay guys, etc etc. That's kind of depressing to think of how complicated the L.A. scene is. Or is that just in terms of dating purposes, and people are fine with being friends with people they wouldn't have sex with?

 

     Anyway, you guys are making me think of this great column that Dan Savage wrote, where he responded to this letter:

 

I'm a 23-year-old homo who came out one year ago. Life has done good and bad things to me. Good things include success in the intelligence lottery, a full ride to college, and now a job with a six-figure income. Sadly, I find that my place in life is different from the place occupied by most other young gay men. When meeting someone, I am often bummed to discover that they are in a state of transience (between cities, between degrees), or bummed because I detect a difference in socioeconomic upbringing/status that will make it hard for us to relate to each other, or bummed because they are not as smart as I am, or most often bummed over a combination of all these things. These thoughts sap my interest in new people, telling me that "it just wouldn't work." Am I right to think that and keep looking, or should I do some substantial "rounding up to one" and go on that second date, even though the odds of compatibility seem slim?

Lots Of First Dates

 

 

    With this:

 

I'm tempted to tell you not to go on "that second date" with anyone you feel is beneath you intellectually, socioeconomically, or status- or upbringing-wise—not to spare you his ghastly company, LOFD, but to spare him the ghastliness of yours.

Look, Gloria Upson, if dating gay men your own age means exposing yourself to guys who are in "states of transience"—completely normal states for dudes in their early 20s—then date guys in their 30s and 40s. Not that dating older guys is a surefire recipe for romantic success: Your snobbery, classism, and elitism are so repulsive that most older guys will be blocking your number before you can call about a second date.

Andrew Sullivan wrote a beautiful post at The Dish a few weeks ago about the egalitarianism of getting laid. He recalled dancing all night in a gay club full of African American guys back when he was a "cute twinky English schoolboy." And Andrew didn't just dance with the black guys he encountered after moving to Washington, DC.

"There's nothing like dating or fucking a person of another background, race, or class to help you see the humanity in everyone," Andrew wrote. "How do you get scared of generic young black men when you've danced with them all night long?... In that sense, I've always felt that being gay was a real moral blessing. I could have been so much worse a human being if I'd been straight."

You're young, LOFD, and I'm being hard on you. I don't mean to step on your ping-pong ball. But if you don't get a grip on your classism and snobbery, you will become so much worse a human being than you need to be. So snap the fuck out of it, okay? And remember: We gay people are a tiny, tiny minority. If you reject as potential partners, friends, and fuck buddies all gay men who aren't of your exact same class, education level, social status (ugh), or salary level (barf), LOFD, you won't be left with many guys to date, hang out with, or fuck.

Which is not to say that you'll wind up alone. Refusing to date any gay man who doesn't belong to the same club that Bunny Bixler does (and isn't pulling in 100K+ a year) will complicate your search for love, LOFD, but there are other gay snobs out there. You could find a boyfriend who's just like you, i.e., same class, same education, same income bracket, same snobbery and shitty-ass attitude. But I wouldn't wish that kind of guy on anyone, LOFD.

Not even on you.

 

 

Pretty much says it all, I think.

Edited October 12, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Kitt]

The man was right - on so many levels.  That is something a lot of people need to learn, and not just the gay community.

[Carlos Hazday]

Mr Savage has turned out to be a pretty smart individual. Straight forward and direct with humorous undertones, his writing style and most of his ideas match my tastes pretty damn closely. 

 

Thanks for sharing .

 

And as far as the LA atmosphere described, we have a somewhat similar situation in South Florida. Just replace Asians with Hatians. I think this type of selectivity is a result of a larger gay population and the attendant larger pool of potential bed or heart mates. And I really dislike the accompanying segregation. I've enjoyed time with members of all races and socioeconomic levels; I may prefer certain traits in my mates but firmly believe it is idiotic for members of a minority group to discriminate on any basis. Guess my fixation with the Golden Rules colors a lot of my feelings and actions.

 

and oooooops I'm one of those "old farts" that has messed around with guys young enough to be my kid. I've actually asked for proof of age a couple of times. They have always initiated it so my guilt and self recrimination are usually short lived.  :-)

Edited October 12, 2013 by Carlos H