9.11

[Mark Arbour]

Some interesting things in the new chapter and I'll lay aside my "Tony must die" shtick for a few moments. I don't like Tony and think he is poisonous, just like some people think Zach is poisonous, but my desire for Skylab to fall on him is more just me having fun than anything.

 

But on the serious side of the story I don't buy the "guys were just hook-ups" bit for Tony and that was why he treated Will like crap on the float trip and did his thing with Rick. If Tony hadn't treated Will the way he did in Rome, maybe I could have bought that line, but in Rome it would have been (and was) pretty obvious to anyone that Will and Tony were like a couple in love and in fact Tony did declare his love for Will. A guy just doing hook ups with guys doesn't act like Tony did in Rome.

 

The funniest, most ironic part of the chapter was Will telling Tony who he could and could not sleep with. Can you imagine how Will would react to someone else, JJ for example, telling Will who he could and could not sleep with? Will would immediately go sleep with them just to spite the person, somewhat like Will did in Norway.

 

Some here think I don't like Will and they couldn't be more wrong. If I didn't like Will I wouldn't hate Tony and call for his death at every opportunity. I wouldn't give a damn, I'd think the two little pricks deserved each other. But I don't think Will is prick, I do think he is far too young to be making a lot of the life decisions he does and his continuing disrespect and disregard for Wally & Clara and interfering with their rights to raise their minor son as they see best troubles me. Will might think they are wrong in how they are doing, but failing to recognize their right to do so speaks to his immaturity. It especially bothers me that there are the young men at Father Tim's ministry who truly have been abused and abandoned by parents who don't give a rip about them and Will wastes his money on someone in an elite prep school who has parents that love and care about his welfare and make what they think are the right decisions for him. I think Will has misdirected priorities.

 

As I said in my review of this chapter, despite the fact that to us, the 9-11 "planes hit" chapter was almost three months ago (9-9-2013), in CAP time, it hasn't even been a month yet since Robbie died. Its just been 23 days since the towers fell so I wouldn't expect Brad, or anyone for that matter, to have moved on or been healed so quickly. At the three month mark, maybe you only think about it 5 or 6 times a day as opposed to every 5 or 6 minutes, but it really takes time for grief to be processed.

 

I am not sure how much longer we have in 9-11, but I hope long enough to learn more about Wade's half brother, long enough to have some fun in Hawaii and long enough to see Tony die a slow, painful death (you didn't really think I was going to abandon the "Tony must die" theme so easily did you?) 

 

Narcissist that I am, I like it when people agree with me and think I'm wonderful, but in all seriousness, I love the different perspective you bring to this discussion.  I think much of that may stem from our backgrounds and professions, which are an extension, to a degree, of our personalities.  It makes complete sense to me that you would favor a general adherence and respect for rules, and for those in authority, just as it makes complete sense that those things are much less important to me.  In my world, intellect and education would be more important.  So when we look at the Zach-Will and Wally-Clara matchup, I understand where you're coming from, but it's just not the same perspective I have.  That just makes it more interesting. 

 

I do have to disagree with you, though, on Will wasting his money on Zach.  What Will (individually or through his family) has done for the less fortunate isn't necessarily correlated with what he does for a friend (and a shirt-tail relative).  I know in my own family, there are relatives with ample amounts of cash who wouldn't throw a dime even to their friends.  I don't see that in Will.  I think he genuinely has a generosity of spirit.  Of course, that makes me think I need to add a truly Scrooge-like figure into the mix. 

 

I'll even really poke you in the eye and disagree with you on Will's reaction if Tony were to pull guys off the table.  I think that he would actually handle it really well, primarily because he tends to learn from his mistakes (and those of others), and that thing with Wade-Matt-Carl sits pretty high on his psyche.  I think he's willing and able to make that part of a commitment.  The thing with Will is that he's got to know the 'why', so when JJ was losing it in Norway, that wasn't logical, it was just, in Will's mind, petty.  That's a whole different deal. 

 

I'm totally buying your argument on Tony's attitude toward other guys, and his "it's just a hookup" rationale.  It seems to me that he has more of an issue making commitments, and an even bigger issue living up to them.  That's bound to be a problem for whomever he ends up with.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Mark Arbour

[Daddydavek]

I've not liked Tony for a long time as he has several issues that he hasn't even identified.  I think his shrink was right and he should have stayed away from Will. Will took it wrong.  It wasn't the shrink thinking Will couldn't handle it; it was the shrink worried that Tony would think everything was fixed if they made up when Tony hasn't even dealt with half of his issues.  Sorting him out is more than a project and I suspect there could be some sick, nasty turns in the future.  Arbour is a master at setting up these things and I suspect that Will gets burned again.  

[methodwriter85]

 

  I don't see that in Will.  I think he genuinely has a generosity of spirit.  Of course, that makes me think I need to add a truly Scrooge-like figure into the mix. 

 

     You COULD make JJ like that- I can see JJ being a miserly Scrounge. But more likely, I can see JJ as a guy who buys gifts to impress his friends, much like Robbie did. I wouldn't have been surprised if the swag bags for JJ's 15th birthday blow-out were absolutely ridiculous. JJ reminds me of this guy I used to talk to online, who was telling me about how he planned on buying expensive cufflinks for a guy he was just hooking up with.

 

    I don't think JJ would put a buck into the Salvation Army bucket, but he would do and buy anything to keep someone being his friend.

 

    Zach probably recognizes this, which is why Zach was slightly flirting with him. A gold digger can always recognize an easy mark. LOL.

 

I'm totally buying your argument on Tony's attitude toward other guys, and his "it's just a hookup" rationale.  It seems to me that he has more of an issue making commitments, and an even bigger issue living up to them.  That's bound to be a problem for whomever he ends up with.

 

    I think the thing about Tony is that he's a Cody trying to be a Max, and failing horribly. Meaning that he's someone who should be in open relationships instead of committed ones, but he tries to be something he's not. Not just a straight guy, but the guy who settles down and commits to a single person and starts a family, because that's what the Italian culture promotes. But it's not him even going beyond the straight thing, and that's where the tension is. I don't think it would suit Tony to get married and use a surrogate to have kids with his husbands when he's in his mid/late 20's, like I think is inevitable for Will.

 

     What I hope Tony winds up doing throughout the rest of college is to build up a group of openly LGBT friends who accept him for him, instead of the shallow losers he had as friends in St. Louis. Hopefully his soccer team will be similar to what we saw with Matt's hockey team in being generally accepting of him, as well.

Edited December 7, 2013 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Something ate my first draft of this post. 

 

 

“If he has money, he can get into more trouble,” Gathan insisted.

        “If Zach wants money, there are a lot of ways he can get it,” I said.  Did none of these people ever stop to think that a guy like Zach could easily turn tricks?

I wonder if Will ever stopped to think that "turning a trick" is exactly what Gathan and, to a lesser extent (in that he'd have less of a problem with it) Brad, assumed already happened with him?

Edited December 7, 2013 by B1ue

[Mark Arbour]

     You COULD make JJ like that- I can see JJ being a miserly Scrounge. But more likely, I can see JJ as a guy who buys gifts to impress his friends, much like Robbie did. I wouldn't have been surprised if the swag bags for JJ's 15th birthday blow-out were absolutely ridiculous. JJ reminds me of this guy I used to talk to online, who was telling me about how he planned on buying expensive cufflinks for a guy he was just hooking up with.

 

    I don't think JJ would put a buck into the Salvation Army bucket, but he would do and buy anything to keep someone being his friend.

 

    Zach probably recognizes this, which is why Zach was slightly flirting with him. A gold digger can always recognize an easy mark. LOL.

 

  

 

No.  For someone to be a true Scrooge, they have to have the Money Worship disorder, and JJ doesn't have that issue.  I don't think he worries about money, or thinks about money, and I don't really think he obsesses about it.  He buys what he wants, when he wants it.  But it doesn't dominate his life.  It's unusual for a person who was raised in a household where money is not a problem to develop that particular disorder. 

 

I'm not sure Zach was flirting with JJ to get something out of him, I think Zach was flirting with JJ to annoy him, and to annoy John.  I see it as a classic situation where John and JJ are sitting there, acting like they're so far above Zach, and by flirting with them, and making them want him, he brings them down to his level. 

 

I think the thing about Tony is that he's a Cody trying to be a Max, and failing horribly. Meaning that he's someone who should be in open relationships instead of committed ones, but he tries to be something he's not. Not just a straight guy, but the guy who settles down and commits to a single person and starts a family, because that's what the Italian culture promotes. But it's not him even going beyond the straight thing, and that's where the tension is. I don't think it would suit Tony to get married and use a surrogate to have kids with his husbands when he's in his mid/late 20's, like I think is inevitable for Will.

 

 

   

I don't think Tony has that much clarity.  I think he's so confused, he's floundering around like a rudderless ship.  For that reason, he shouldn't probably be in ANY kind of relationship.  What Tony is like when he figures this out, IF he figures this out, is anybody's guess, since I haven't figured it out either. 

 

 

What I hope Tony winds up doing throughout the rest of college is to build up a group of openly LGBT friends who accept him for him, instead of the shallow losers he had as friends in St. Louis. Hopefully his soccer team will be similar to what we saw with Matt's hockey team in being generally accepting of him, as well.

 

 

I don't think that's a very fair description of Tony's friends.  They were largely just a crowd of straight college kids, doing their thing, so other than Rick, they didn't seem douchie to me.  Tony tried out for the soccer team, but we never heard about him making it, and he hasn't talked about practices or games, so it's more likely he's not on a team.  If he does anything, he plays intramurals, but even then, we've heard nothing about it.

Something ate my first draft of this post. 

 

I wonder if Will ever stopped to think that "turning a trick" is exactly what Gathan and, to a lesser extent (in that he'd have less of a problem with it) Brad, assumed already happened with him?

 

I'm not following your point on this one?

[methodwriter85]

I'm not sure Zach was flirting with JJ to get something out of him, I think Zach was flirting with JJ to annoy him, and to annoy John.  I see it as a classic situation where John and JJ are sitting there, acting like they're so far above Zach, and by flirting with them, and making them want him, he brings them down to his level. 

 

I don't think Tony has that much clarity.  I think he's so confused, he's floundering around like a rudderless ship.  For that reason, he shouldn't probably be in ANY kind of relationship.  What Tony is like when he figures this out, IF he figures this out, is anybody's guess, since I haven't figured it out either. 

 

I'm not following your point on this one?

 

1. Good point. Blue and I have joked about the fact that Zach and JJ should have started their own "I Hate Gathan" club, but JJ is the Classic Snobby Little Rich Kid, and I think Zach would be pretty be aware that JJ is just going to view him as poor white trash, even with a trust fund. (That he can't touch until 2010.) I don't think John is as snobby, but he's definitely going to be swayed into acting above Zach because of their history and around JJ. John comes off as someone who...I don't wanna say he "molds" himself into whoever he's around, but he knows how to read people and fit in accordingly.

 

2. True.

 

3. Blue is saying that Will's family and Zach's family basically think that Zach prostituted himself to Will and got a car out of it.

[Mark Arbour]

3. Blue is saying that Will's family and Zach's family basically think that Zach prostituted himself to Will and got a car out of it.

 

Will's gift for Zach was less about him being a good piece of ass, and more about Will feeling an affinity with Zach and his situation.  I guess one of the big missing pieces to this is how Zach approached Will about the car in the first place.  How you fill that in will probably answer the whore question. 

[B1ue]

No, you're misunderstanding. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm saying that I thought Gathan's enmity towards Zach, especially, made them think that Zach used his body to get things from Will. To a lesser extent, I figured Brad felt the same way. It would have more readily explained to me why they were so opposed to Zach getting close to Will in the first place, they were afraid he was going to use him, and possibly already had. Which is a way of looking at what happened, not that Will would see it that way. Bigger question to me would have been how Zach saw it, because as I stated earlier it's perfectly possible to have and express genuine feelings for a mark, and still see them as a mark, but your confusion pretty much answers that point.

[Mark Arbour]

No, you're misunderstanding. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm saying that I thought Gathan's enmity towards Zach, especially, made them think that Zach used his body to get things from Will. To a lesser extent, I figured Brad felt the same way. It would have more readily explained to me why they were so opposed to Zach getting close to Will in the first place, they were afraid he was going to use him, and possibly already had. Which is a way of looking at what happened, not that Will would see it that way. Bigger question to me would have been how Zach saw it, because as I stated earlier it's perfectly possible to have and express genuine feelings for a mark, and still see them as a mark, but your confusion pretty much answers that point.

 

So my confusion cleared up your confusion?  Sounds like a typical day for me. :-)

[mmike1969]

It only took him half an hour to pull together a pretty kick-ass breakfast. Darius managed to appear as soon as it was ready, the little shit, and thus he avoided having to help cook. “I’ll clean this up while you’re surfing,” he said as he stretched. That was a really nice thing to do.

30 minutes to cook eggs and bacon? Really? Did they have to slaughter the pig first or did they have to file down a gold bar to sprinkle gold shards on top of the eggs?

 

You toss the eggs because you got an egg shell in it? You could not figure out how to remove the shell?

 

How long do these people take to warm up some bread (most of us use what is called a toaster) and have a cup a coffee?

 

I do not pick the beans from a bush and then roast them first. I use coffee shop bought beans and it only takes about 3 minutes to heat the water (on top of what we simple people call a gas-burning stove) and then use a fancy thing called a "French Press".

 

In short: These people are not going to be on my "Survivor" team any time soon.

[Daddydavek]

Mmike is worried about how long it takes some kids to cook breakfast???

 

I wanted us to get to Hawaii and it has finally happened.  The water was a warm 80 degrees and the surfing was great but not a lot of description.

 

It was a character centered chapter with some real surprises. Austin turns out to be not only hopelessly straight, but confident in it, sensitive and completely accepting of gays.   What a guy.

 

Then Scot a/k/a Lark gets to explain Will to Brad and blows me away in that he actually is able to clue Brad in as to where he sees Will as coming from and does it without totally pissing Brad off.  Hunh?

 

Then Scot cuddles and spoons Brad from outside the sheets and Brad slept good.   Oh man, this could get complicated! 

[B1ue]

30 minutes to cook eggs and bacon? Really? Did they have to slaughter the pig first or did they have to file down a gold bar to sprinkle gold shards on top of the eggs?

 

In short: These people are not going to be on my "Survivor" team any time soon.

 

And that was the most competent one. Will was basically in awe, wondering, "What is this witchcraft?"

[rjo]

We have seen Brad his whole life. The new born. The tormented five year old. The shy, deep 11 yo. The self absored high schooler. Later the win at all costs businessman.. God knows Brad has his problems but he can fun too. After the previous chapter I wondered about him.. I know it has only been three weeks in the Cap world. but. What I don't want, Brad be a hollow person, only going through the motions like Barry was after Billy's death. Mark you said Brad was stronger than it seemed. I am starting to think that he will make it and even more important he will be a better person because of it.Sometimes, a person can go through hardship and became better, as in Nelson Mandela. Hopefully a more caring and not as combative. If that is true, it maybe Robbie's last and best gift to him.

[Westie]

30 minutes to cook eggs and bacon? Really? Did they have to slaughter the pig first or did they have to file down a gold bar to sprinkle gold shards on top of the eggs?

 

You toss the eggs because you got an egg shell in it? You could not figure out how to remove the shell?

 

How long do these people take to warm up some bread (most of us use what is called a toaster) and have a cup a coffee?

 

I do not pick the beans from a bush and then roast them first. I use coffee shop bought beans and it only takes about 3 minutes to heat the water (on top of what we simple people call a gas-burning stove) and then use a fancy thing called a "French Press".

 

In short: These people are not going to be on my "Survivor" team any time soon.

 

You American's are all about the eggs and bacon.... for me (as a Brit) a breakfast doesn't count as "kick ass" unless it includes fried mushrooms, grilled tomatoes, sausages, hash browns and MOST importantly, a properly cooked (i.e "rare" cooked) Black Pudding.

 

Apple Juice for us English (can't grow an Orange in this Green and Pleasant land), we do now drink coffee, but more traditionally tea.  And no French press for me... I would use a cafetiere (same thing, sounds better...)

 

  :P :P :P  

Edited December 8, 2013 by Westie

[mmike1969]

I doubt these people could cut a potato to make a hash brown to save their life, let alone realize apples and oranges come from something other then a carton or a bottle.

 

The more we get into their daily lives, the more I wonder who is going to die of starvation or food poisoning first.

 

Will can surf and reads people easily but he clearly does not understand the concept of grocery shopping. He just grabs random items of food from HIS OWN kitchen and eats it without realizing "hey, I don't remember buying this..."

 

Westie: I had a chance to eat a British Breakfast once when I was on a field exercise in Germany with our British and Belgium allies... I decided that simple MRE looked much healthier then what they were serving. .

 

Sorry but dropping eggs and toast (and everything else) into a boiling drum of oil and serving what floated on top was not my idea of food.

 

And this is coming from someone who once ate fried ice cream over fired Twinkie over fried snickers bar with fried butter for the sauce.

Edited December 8, 2013 by mmike1969

[methodwriter85]

   That's not true for everyone. For me, a kick-ass breakfast would be Belgian waffles, a side of bacon, sausage gravy biscuits, along with pineapple and cranberry apple juice.

 

    Anyway, I really do hope Austin turns out to be a better friend than Noah was. I like that Will can have a hot male friend with whom there's no sexual tension...I always kind of figured that was part of what ruined his friendship with Ryan.

 

 

 

And that was the most competent one. Will was basically in awe, wondering, "What is this witchcraft?"

 

      The whole thing reminded me of when Tommy Hilfiger's daughter was on a show called "Rich Girls", and she got frustrated because she couldn't figure out how to make a burrito. At 18. I'm not kidding.

 

 

The more we get into their daily lives, the more I wonder who is going to die of starvation or food poisoning first.

Will can surf and reads people easily but he clearly does not understand the concept of grocery shopping. He just grabs random items of food from HIS OWN kitchen and eats it without realizing "hey, I don't remember buying this..."

 

      It's weird to me, because I figured out bacon and eggs when I was 7 or 8. I figured that was a basic even the biggest non-cook could do, like spaghetti or hamburgers.

 

       Maybe he'll learn how to grocery shop when he goes off to college and learns that dining hall food is really disgusting? I remember Target becoming my friend that first year of college.

Edited December 8, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Westie]

Westie: I had a chance to eat a British Breakfast once when I was on a field exercise in Germany with our British and Belgium allies... I decided that simple MRE looked much healthier then what they were serving. .

 

Sorry but dropping eggs and toast (and everything else) into a boiling drum of oil and serving what floated on top was not my idea of food.

While this is not the thread for an in depth discussion of breakfasts around the world, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not confuse the oil drum breakfast of the army with a "Full English". For example, the addition of fried eggs instead of poached or scrambled is a relatively recent invention. And sausages and bacon should be grilled, not fried. The ONLY thing that goes near a frying pan in the hash browns (assuming you made them yourself and didn't buy frozen). Occasionally, I will fry the black pudding, but since this is made up of animal fat anyway (plus clotted blood and things), its really a case of "in for a penny, in for a pound".

 

I have a hundred other "rules" for a true english breakfast, but those should wait for another thread.

 

West

[davewri]

A "true English breakfast" is so much better than any breakfast in Thailand.........

[Daddydavek]

The chapter is set in Hawaii and the thread is still caught up on an ordinary make-do breakfast.

 

Regarding food--I was hoping that Will or Steff or someone had arranged for one of the catering agencies on the island to do a full beach style luau with a small pig roast and all the seafood and accompanying treats and fresh fruit....

 

However, it was  about characters and we are left to wonder just how important Scott a/k/a Lark will be to Brad.  He has to keep a low profile otherwise his past will come back and bite them.  

 

Then too, Austin could play some larger role later too.  Endless possibilities for our resident wordsmith.

[GLH]

It's only been three weeks in the CAP timeline since 9/11.  Grief counseling notwithstanding, they're all still pretty much in the throes of grieving their losses.  After my Brother's passing, I rushed my Mother to the hospital with severe chest pains on the six week anniversary of his death.  Her blood pressure, which normally runs below normal, had spiked to 265/215 for no apparent reason.  The doctor was puzzled as to the cause until I told him about our loss and he said that her reaction was understandable, although a bit severe.  He went on to explain that grieving peaks around the six week mark for most people and their reactions can manifest in any number of ways.  That said, we're still very early in the grieving process and I really don't expect to see any change in anyone, Brad especially, for a long time to come and I don't think we've seen the worst of it yet.

Edited December 8, 2013 by GLH

[rjo]

Dealing with the deaths of both parents and my self-father I must agree. For a number of months after my father died ( I was only nine at the time) my mother had spells of overwhelming sadness. After she died my self-father who was a strong man almost died from grief ( I was 26), After visiting him a number of months later I found that nothing in the house had change, In fact nothing changed in the house during the rest of his life. It was his way of coping. This will be a very long journey for this family. I would not be surprise if this book would go on until Christmas and maybe for a long time beyond.

Edited December 9, 2013 by rjo

[methodwriter85]

    It's a little over a week since my good college friend  on November 29th, and I got it confirmed to me on November 30th. I'm past the intense feelings of sadness, but it's interesting to learn that I've apparently got a lot more grieving stages to go through. The last 'sad attack' hit me when I was walking around KMart, and the sad version of "Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas" came on. It's really strange how unpredictable this stuff is...I thought that I'd go to the bar we hung out together at so many times in college, put on "I Wish You Were Here" by Pink Floyd, and I'd have a good cry...but...nothing. Maybe a little tearing up, but not what I expected.

[rjo]

Holidays are the worst. That's why Christmas will be bad for the family. Will said he didn't want gifts or a big party for his birthday. How can you be happy when the sadness is overwhelming. Also Jeremy you are right, small things set it off. a song, a place, something that belonged to the person.. What is so great is Mark has handled this loss so well. It could almost be used as a guidebook to dealing with grief. Jeremy sorry for your loss.

Edited December 9, 2013 by rjo

[methodwriter85]

 

LOL. Thanks Miles. I thought the advice from Darius and Austin was so very high school, which kind of shows you that Darius' mind is still there. Not unusual for a freshman.

 

    Darius is actually a sophomore, but I still don't think it's that weird for Darius to still have a very high school mindset. I don't think high school kids started becoming a mystery to me until I was about 25 or so.

 

    Hell, I've met mid-thirtysomethings who still have a teenaged mindset, which really shocked me because before that I thought 35-year olds had a wisdom and maturity to them because of their extra years.

Edited December 10, 2013 by methodwriter85

[Kitt]

LOL. As you get older you will begin to realize maturity and age have little to do with each other. Just as Will is mature for his age, my father was the perpetual 19 year old when he passed at the age of 77.