9.11

[methodwriter85]

They were interesting chapters. The drama of competitive sports pretty much writes itself.

 

Speaking of...Brian Boitano came out as gay in advance of being a delagate to the 2014 Olympics, as a protest against the anti-gay policies of Russia. I wonder if JJ will still be involved with figure skating at that point, or if he'll finish with it sometime after 2006.

Edited December 20, 2013 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

"I’m old, and have nothing better to do, so if that’s how you want to spend your weekends, that’s fine with me,” she said.  “So what’s it going to be?”

 

This is why we do not mess around with little old ladies. They have seen things and done things and have no time for your nonsense.

[Daddydavek]

In his review of chapter 60  Tim wrote:

"This chapter was so good, I didn't think of awful ways for Tony to die once! (okay, well maybe once.... but for sure not twice!)  :P"

 

And I laughed so hard I almost fell off my chair!

[Mark Arbour]

This is why we do not mess around with little old ladies. They have seen things and done things and have no time for your nonsense.

 

Hilarious and true!

 

In his review of chapter 60  Tim wrote:

"This chapter was so good, I didn't think of awful ways for Tony to die once! (okay, well maybe once.... but for sure not twice!)  :P"

 

And I laughed so hard I almost fell off my chair!

 

Tim: I'll PM you for death ideas for Tony if I ever decide to off him. 

[methodwriter85]

 

Actually, the person I can see really having a blow up with Ethan is JJ. Will would put up with a lot of crap from Ethan, just to make things better for Wade. JJ doesn't have Will's great bond with Wade, so he'd just see Ethan as some boorish idiot, and would probably not feel overly constrained in pointing that out to him.

 

    I agree with you. It's a really good thing JJ wasn't around, because he straight up would have laughed his ass off at Ethan.

 

    It does make me wonder though what kind of private schools Ethan grew up at- wouldn't etiquette and general table manners been part of what they were trained in? You mean to tell me that in 7 or so years of dining in private school dining halls, no one ever brought up how bad his table manners are? I went to a public elementary school, and I had teachers single me out and teach table manners to me when I was in 2nd grade or so.

 

    As for the Claremont stuff, I love reading the updates about the town. I like that it hasn't just been forgotten, and the family really does have a strong commitment to it.

Edited December 23, 2013 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

I went to a public elementary school, and I had teachers single me out and teach table manners to me when I was in 2nd grade or so.

Same for me, except it was other kids in my case.

 

Of course, being me, I learned to switch handedness in the middle of a meal simply to drive everyone else crazy, but I used both hands politely.

[mmike1969]

Table manners are different from one world to the next.

An example would be my eating habits at the Mess Hall when I was in the Army vs Thanksgiving dinner at my sister-in-law's house. Took me a while to stop cussing when talking to people and eating without tasting the food.

 

Secondly, he grew up knowing full well he's a Jon Snow. Do you really think he gives a damn about table manners and making real world use of fancy words like etiquette?

Edited December 23, 2013 by mmike1969

[rjo]

I am still wondering if all this attitude is part of a act. Remember this kid only saw his dad once or twice a year. I still think it is deeper than we think. Maybe Nana is the one to bring him out of it. She survived her bout with Elizabeth, so she can do this easily.

Edited December 24, 2013 by rjo

[davewri]

I spent a lot of time at Cate School in Carpentaria, a school where the top 1% send their kids.  Bad table manners did not exist.  These kids know the other students would not put up with obnoxious behavior, especially concerning sports.  Ethan is putting on a show and Nana will bring him around soon enough.  Opposites attract,  so maybe JJ  might find Ethan  interesting.

[PrivateTim]

I was hoping to hear from Westie on the automatic respect shown to Nana by Ethan and Joe, and why that is, and why the other commenters here seemed to accept and approve of that respect given to her from someone she has never met before.

 

As I said in my review, I am wondering where the great compassion of Will is towards Ethan? Everyone cited what a compassionate person Will was in buying Zach a car because he understood or empathized with Zach? Freakin' holy A what about Ethan who has never had a family or a father!? Will spent one third of one book wallowing in self pity that no one in his family loved him, despite all the evidence to the contrary and did far more than pound his fists on a soccer field in his frustration and a lot of people here were perfectly fine with his outsized actions before he ran away.

 

I don't think Will's restraint in not telling Ethan off because he is bugging him is an equivalent show of compassion as buying someone, an asshat to boot, a car.

 

Then, Will doesn't want Matt to do Tony in some territorial BS, but what about Will with Joe? What kind of host does a guest's guest? Will has no idea if Ethan and Joe are an item or even if they are not an item, if Ethan has feelings for Joe? It is typical of Will in his self indulgent, "I want what I want, but you can't want what you want" arrogance that he doesn't even THINK about Ethan and Joe that way.

 

I do love Will and his narrations, but I wish more people would call him out on his bullshit rather than excuse it or rationalize it.

[Daddydavek]

I don't see Will acting without compassion for Ethan.  I see Will slightly put off because Ethan has rebuffed his every attempt to be nice and show him around.  Ethan is clearly not interested in being nice for or to his family unless he is called on it by someone whom he assumes has stature, e.g. Nana.   I don't think Ethan is stupid and he recognized that his being rude or crude was not going to be ignored by Wade's granny.   So while Will like the rest voiced his complaints about the lack of manners, I don't see where we can pick on him and single him out for some supposed lack of compassion.   I think all the boys have respect for sitting JP and Isodore's table and they were somewhat shocked by Ethan.  

 

Of course as I've said before, some of that shitty behavior may have been calculated.   Ethan has been shuffled out of sight for years and now he is invited out into public and he isn't supposed to act out or have any resentment, even unconscious resentment?

[methodwriter85]

    Hey, guys, I came across this interesting article, from the point-of-view of a Millennial who went away to war instead of going away to college. I think it's a pretty raw look into the mindset of a certain subset of this generation.

 

The Division of Generation Y

 

   Two different narratives for this generation...both different, but in some ways, the same. I definitely felt a bit of guilt for the fact that I wasn't off in Iraq or Afghanistan, getting physically or emotionally maimed like Gen Y military counterparts. The biggest thing I worried about in 2005-2006 was whether or not a friend might get too wasted at a party and need to go to a hospital. These guys had to worry about whether or not the little Aghan kid approaching them might or might not be a human bomb. It's insane.

 

   I remember in 2007, I took part in an Iraq "die-in" at U of D...basically, we lied on the ground and pretended to be dead veterans- some of us were dressed in military gear, and had fake blood and everything. We probably looked utterly ridiculous, and University of Delaware is an incredibly politically apathetic campus (despite the fact that Joe Biden is one of ours), but I remember lying there, really thinking about the thousands of guys and gals who sacrificed. It's like Vietnam, but worse, because so many of their counterparts lived blissfully unaware of the problems in Iraq/Afghanistan, where we cared more about getting new Ipods and Britney Meltdown '07 than them.

Edited December 25, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

From my review of the Christmas chapter

 

I am at a loss though as to why anyone thinks Will is "maturing" based on this chapter? He still threatened to torch Matt's car, he has his father tiptoeing around about whom he can invite on his plane and why would Will have any say on Wally & Clara visiting their son to begin with?

Zach called it, partly Will was worried about whether or not he'd be able to get his noodle wet with his new best bud Zach if Wally & Clara were along. Instead of being happy for Wally & Clara getting to see their son play, Will is thinking about Will.

Also, what up with Mendoza making a pass at a guy who lost his life partner in a horrible tragedy just 5 weeks ago?

[Mark Arbour]

From my review of the Christmas chapter

 

I am at a loss though as to why anyone thinks Will is "maturing" based on this chapter? He still threatened to torch Matt's car, he has his father tiptoeing around about whom he can invite on his plane and why would Will have any say on Wally & Clara visiting their son to begin with?

 

Zach called it, partly Will was worried about whether or not he'd be able to get his noodle wet with his new best bud Zach if Wally & Clara were along. Instead of being happy for Wally & Clara getting to see their son play, Will is thinking about Will.

 

 

This one is actually easy to explain.  The reason why Brad has to tiptoe around about inviting Wally and Clara is because it's not Brad's trip.  He invited himself along in the first place.  It's the equivalent of you inviting yourself along to a party a friend is going to, and volunteering to drive.  Then you decide to bring other people along without asking the friend who invited you if it's alright.  Especially if the friend isn't overly fond of the people you decided to invite along. 

[rjo]

I was thinking many families have a loss, like what this family had, can do one of two things, It can break the family apart or bring the family together. Thankfully, this loss has seems to bring the family together. I am not sure, but it seems before the three brothers, Darius, JJ, and  Will, all had their separate lives. Even Brad and Robbie were separate for most of the time. Now they seem to think about each other more. Worry about each other more. Try to interact better with each other. It does not work all the time, but they are working toward it. They are not just reacting but stopping to think first. They seem to be sharing their feels like never before. It's been over a month and Will and Brad have not gotten into it like before.

 

 

While that part of the family seems to have grown together , Frank and Matt have not gotten that far. I worry more about Frank, I see him turning into Barry, Tonto's husband after their second son died. Matt is another story. He has Wade, but is that enough? Can Nana knock some sense into him? For some reason he thinks he is the only one who lost someone. Yes, he lost his father, who he only has known for four years. I remember their meeting. How Robbie was willing to give him a kidney. Wade has put up with Matt's behavior for years now. How much longer will he?  If their relationship ends will Matt go off the deep end? He could. Drunk and careless he could find himself with something he really doesn't want. While Wade has always seemed older than his age, Matt seems more like 16 year old. Now I like Matt, but he seems to think more about himself and not about Wade and their relationship.I understand Matt loves.the college life but soon that will end, What will Matt do then?

Edited December 26, 2013 by rjo

[Daddydavek]

I tend to agree with RJO's thought above about Matt and Wade. Again I see parallels between what they are experiencing and what Brad and Robbie went through, (while in college) just not yet as dramatic....

Edited December 26, 2013 by Daddydavek

[Kitt]

From my review of the Christmas chapter

 

I am at a loss though as to why anyone thinks Will is "maturing" based on this chapter? He still threatened to torch Matt's car, he has his father tiptoeing around about whom he can invite on his plane and why would Will have any say on Wally & Clara visiting their son to begin with?

 

Zach called it, partly Will was worried about whether or not he'd be able to get his noodle wet with his new best bud Zach if Wally & Clara were along. Instead of being happy for Wally & Clara getting to see their son play, Will is thinking about Will.

 

Also, what up with Mendoza making a pass at a guy who lost his life partner in a horrible tragedy just 5 weeks ago?

 

 

This one is actually easy to explain.  The reason why Brad has to tiptoe around about inviting Wally and Clara is because it's not Brad's trip.  He invited himself along in the first place.  It's the equivalent of you inviting yourself along to a party a friend is going to, and volunteering to drive.  Then you decide to bring other people along without asking the friend who invited you if it's alright.  Especially if the friend isn't overly fond of the people you decided to invite along. 

I am curious, why is it you see Brad's thinking about Will's feelings as tiptoe maneuvers?  I saw it as him finally realizing that he simply cannot bull his way through every situation by seizing control and taking over. He realized that was essentially what he did ( Mark's reply said it much better than I could) and chose to deal with it now allowing things to be handled more calmly in advance of the flight or alternately giving the whole thing time to settle if it did deteriorate into a fight. In the past Brad simply would have said nothing and let Will blow up when they landed in Ohio unexpectedly.

 

I also wonder why you see Will calling to talk to Zach as being totally selfish?  Granted there was probably more than a little truth to the thoughts about not being as free to play as if Wally and Clara were not there. We are talking about 15 yr old walking hormones after all, but as far as we ( and by extension Will) know at this point Zach isn't on the best terms with his parents. I would have appreciated a heads up from a friend were I in that position, and I think that was a big part of the reason for calling Zach. If you were on the outs with someone in your family and they showed up without any warning would you be comfortable with it?

 

As for Mendoza hitting on Brad, since when is any guy not directly involved in someones life supposed to be aware of the emotional turmoil going on in someones head?  Mendoza may not be aware that Brad Shulter even knew Robert Hayes, let alone that Robbie was his significant other and killed on 9-11.  Not everyone is following the CEO's private life, nor does everyone follow the lives of Hollywood insiders. He saw someone he found interesting and gave it a shot. I am more inclined to question his hitting on the big boss out of a "sleep your way up" mentality than i am to think he is trying to hit on an emotionally vulnerable guy.

[PrivateTim]

I am curious, why is it you see Brad's thinking about Will's feelings as tiptoe maneuvers?  I saw it as him finally realizing that he simply cannot bull his way through every situation by seizing control and taking over. He realized that was essentially what he did ( Mark's reply said it much better than I could) and chose to deal with it now allowing things to be handled more calmly in advance of the flight or alternately giving the whole thing time to settle if it did deteriorate into a fight. In the past Brad simply would have said nothing and let Will blow up when they landed in Ohio unexpectedly.

 

I also wonder why you see Will calling to talk to Zach as being totally selfish?  Granted there was probably more than a little truth to the thoughts about not being as free to play as if Wally and Clara were not there. We are talking about 15 yr old walking hormones after all, but as far as we ( and by extension Will) know at this point Zach isn't on the best terms with his parents. I would have appreciated a heads up from a friend were I in that position, and I think that was a big part of the reason for calling Zach. If you were on the outs with someone in your family and they showed up without any warning would you be comfortable with it?

 

As for Mendoza hitting on Brad, since when is any guy not directly involved in someones life supposed to be aware of the emotional turmoil going on in someones head?  Mendoza may not be aware that Brad Shulter even knew Robert Hayes, let alone that Robbie was his significant other and killed on 9-11.  Not everyone is following the CEO's private life, nor does everyone follow the lives of Hollywood insiders. He saw someone he found interesting and gave it a shot. I am more inclined to question his hitting on the big boss out of a "sleep your way up" mentality than i am to think he is trying to hit on an emotionally vulnerable guy.

 

First the tiptoeing, the text of the story:

 

 

We were laughing pretty hard when Dad came out.  “You two are in good spirits,” he said formally.

 

“More or less,” I said.  He was really uptight.  “What’s wrong?”

 

Then

 

“They didn’t want us to go?  What did they do, forbid us from attending the game?”  Darius shuffled his feet to get my attention, and when I looked at him, his eyes told me to calm the fuck down, so I did.

 

Lastly

 

“It just sort of happened...” he whined.

 

 

Brad was tiptoeing to not piss off Will. All Brad did initially was offer to go a long and provide a ride. To answer Mark, the analogy is you are 15 and don't drive so you are riding your bike to a party and someone comes along and offers you a ride in their limo.

 

And why was Will being totally selfish? Again, the text of the story:

 

 

“You’re OK with them being there?” I asked, and there was no way he could miss the surprise in my voice. 

 He laughed.  “Yeah, I’m OK with them being there.  I like it when they come to my games.” 

 “Cool,” I said, trying to hide my disappointment.

 

Why was Will disappointed? Because he thought the parents being along would cut into his fuck time with Zach. It is pretty clear where Will's head was. And again, you can not fall back on the "he is only 15" argument because the whole point of Will's emancipation is supposedly his maturity beyond his years. We won't even discuss the Mann Act implications of WIll's visit.

 

Lastly Mendoza. He certainly would have known that Brad & Robbie were partners because that would have been big news both nationally and even more so locally even if there were not textual evidence that he did know.

 

 

 “We could go into the City,” he said.  I felt my insides churn at the thought of going back to Manhattan. 

 “I’d rather not,” I said, and damned myself for being weak and wimpy with this guy.  

 “I didn’t know if that was something you wanted to deal with, but I figured I’d give you the choice,” he said.  He was giving me the illusion of control, and I realized that he must have sensed that control was important to me.  That almost pissed me off.

 

From the text of the story it seems pretty clear that he most definitely did know.

[Kitt]

I think sometimes you carry things to the extreme Tim. 

 

Had Brad stopped at inviting himself along, or as you put it - offering the ride in the limo - the entire situation would have been different. Had the Hayes asked him to pick them up on the way through it also would have been different. But for him to invite more people to someplace he had invited himself along in the first place was overstepping and I think maybe a tad of tiptoeing was in order.

 

The key word about the phone conversation with Zach was totally sir. I admitted in my statement that there was a degree of selfishness in losing play time to having his parents there. I also think, however, that the same sentence you quoted to prove your point proves mine.

“You’re OK with them being there?” I asked, and there was no way he could miss the surprise in my voice. 

 He laughed.  “Yeah, I’m OK with them being there.  I like it when they come to my games.” 

 “Cool,” I said, trying to hide my disappointment.

Will's being surprised that Zach was ok with his parents being there indicates he was under the impression that their presence might have bothered Zach.   Did it "cut into his fuck time with Zach" as you so delicately put it? Yes. Would that disappoint any young walking hormone? Yes. And by the way - in my experience many people, both male and female, do not outgrow the "walking hormone" stage till well into their 20's. Matt still seems in the stage, and you seem to consider him much more mature than Will. He seems less so to me.  And if you go back through the pertinent forums, I am fairly sure you will find I wasn't one of the people who thought emancipation was such a terrific idea - he may be much more mature than most 15 year olds but that doesn't make him so in all areas. 

 

Mendoza?  Ok - so maybe he DID know. Doesn't mean he would not make the overture. Would I in that situation? No, but then not everyone puts others thoughts and feelings ahead of their own do they?

 

Out of curiosity, do you always ignore a question if the answer would prove to be a bit off of your stated opinions? This is the second time I have asked a direct question of you in discussion of the story line and the second time you completely ignored it.

[PrivateTim]

I think sometimes you carry things to the extreme Tim. 

 

Had Brad stopped at inviting himself along, or as you put it - offering the ride in the limo - the entire situation would have been different. Had the Hayes asked him to pick them up on the way through it also would have been different. But for him to invite more people to someplace he had invited himself along in the first place was overstepping and I think maybe a tad of tiptoeing was in order.

 

The key word about the phone conversation with Zach was totally sir. I admitted in my statement that there was a degree of selfishness in losing play time to having his parents there. I also think, however, that the same sentence you quoted to prove your point proves mine.

“You’re OK with them being there?” I asked, and there was no way he could miss the surprise in my voice. 

 He laughed.  “Yeah, I’m OK with them being there.  I like it when they come to my games.” 

 “Cool,” I said, trying to hide my disappointment.

Will's being surprised that Zach was ok with his parents being there indicates he was under the impression that their presence might have bothered Zach.   Did it "cut into his fuck time with Zach" as you so delicately put it? Yes. Would that disappoint any young walking hormone? Yes. And by the way - in my experience many people, both male and female, do not outgrow the "walking hormone" stage till well into their 20's. Matt still seems in the stage, and you seem to consider him much more mature than Will. He seems less so to me.  And if you go back through the pertinent forums, I am fairly sure you will find I wasn't one of the people who thought emancipation was such a terrific idea - he may be much more mature than most 15 year olds but that doesn't make him so in all areas. 

 

Mendoza?  Ok - so maybe he DID know. Doesn't mean he would not make the overture. Would I in that situation? No, but then not everyone puts others thoughts and feelings ahead of their own do they?

 

Out of curiosity, do you always ignore a question if the answer would prove to be a bit off of your stated opinions? This is the second time I have asked a direct question of you in discussion of the story line and the second time you completely ignored it.

 

I don't recall talking about Matt a lot in the last three stories, maybe not since Matt was a narrator, because at this point I regard him as a pretty minor character, ditto with Gathan, despite the fact that both were once narrators.

 

Which question did I ignore? This? "If you were on the outs with someone in your family and they showed up without any warning would you be comfortable with it?"

 

I would be curious what evidence you have that Zach is "on the outs" with someone in his family, especially his parents? It seems I answered that, even indirectly, with the quote. "I like it when they come to my games."

 

As to Mendoza, I think you are acting as if it is a 50/50 on would someone hit on someone who'd lost their partner just six weeks ago. I have to believe that it is more like 90/10 or higher.

[Kitt]

Zach seemed to me prior to this chapter to be "on the outs" with his parents due to his complaining about their refusal to allow a car, and the way Gathan was talking about it.  Perhaps it was only Gathan he was on the outs with, but to me it seemed to extend further.  Still, it looked to me that Will was trying to be considerate of how Zach would feel in the situation. That he (and I) was mistaken in the situation and Zach was happy to have his parents there doesn't change that his calling wasn't a completely selfish thing. As I said before, some selfishness, not total.

 

And you still did not answer my question.

 

Perhaps I have been out of the dating game too long to remember correctly. While it was by no means everyone behaving in a callous way, I recall many people being out for themselves and not really considering the potential partners feelings past the immediate circumstances.  Mendoza came across to me as a guy looking to hook up with a hot guy and not even thinking much about tomorrow, at least till the hookup didn't happen today.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Kitt

[PrivateTim]

Perhaps I have been out of the dating game too long to remember correctly. While it was by no means everyone behaving in a callous way, I recall many people being out for themselves and not really considering the potential partners feelings past the immediate circumstances.  Mendoza came across to me as a guy looking to hook up with a hot guy and not even thinking much about tomorrow, at least till the hookup didn't happen today.

 

Then takes makes him a douchebag, one of the 10%

 

And you still did not answer my question.

 

What is the freaking question?????? You still haven't said TWICE now!

[PrivateTim]

Oh and in rereading some passages just to make I hadn't missed something I came across this gem from Will. 

 

 

“Who the fuck are you people to question me anyway?  Who gave you the right to decide who I decide to sleep with?”

[methodwriter85]

    Again, I think it's reasonable for a family member to expect that another family member isn't going to sleep with their love interest. It's not the same.

Edited December 27, 2013 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

    Again, I think it's reasonable for a family member to expect that another family member isn't going to sleep with their love interest. It's not the same.

 

The trouble with that philosophy is that it assumes there is some normalized standard of right and wrong, but when you get to draw your standards where you want them and I get to draw my standards where I want there is going to be conflict when the standards are different.

 

As with Kitt and the discussion on Mendoza we can't get into this "well I wouldn't do that, but I am not going to tell someone else it is immoral."

 

Hell yes you should.

 

You shouldn't sleep with a relative's love interest, you shouldn't try to have sex with someone still mourning their spouse; there are all kinds of moral certitudes we ought to have, but when you start trying to divorce yourself from those moral norms to do what you want, you can't stuff that moral toothpaste back in the tube. You just have to live with the consequences of your own moral relativism.