9.11

[B1ue]

Apparently all Matt will need to do is screw Will, tell him a hard luck story about his parents not understanding him and everyone being mean to him.

 

He will get a new truck as a bonus

I wonder if part of Matt's problem with Will is that Will doesn't seem to want to sleep with him? Not that either would ever go for it, but knowing guys think he's hot seems important to Matt's ego.

 

I don't think this is the case, but it is something I am curious about.

 

I kind of got annoyed at Will this chapter. On one hand, he's at least trying to act calmly. But the crap with Tony was exactly what everyone warned him would happen, and that he was supposed to not let splash anyone else. Just, gah.

 

Also, JJ doesn't like Matt because he's a bad judge of character. He likes him because he's always taken an at least distant interest on him, even when the rest of the family ranged from bored to annoyed with his interests. But it's typical of Will to not count that, and interesting for Mark to have highlighted that contrast.

 

I was also curious what would happen when Zach inevitably sleeps with someone else, especially if that someone else turns out to be JJ, whom Will specifically said would not do that. I often think Will doesn't live on the same planet as JJ, so I want to see those planets collide.

[rjo]

I want one of those signs, beware of Cat.

 

I agree in many ways JJ and Will live in two different worlds. However. JJ would never do that to Will and Will could not do that to JJ. When push comes to shove Darius, JJ and Will are brothers. Not by blood but brothers still. I think the losses of 9 11 showed them that even more. Through their grief they were brought together. That is not true with Matt. Matt has never really thought of himself as part of the family. Yes Robbie was his father, but that is as far as it went. I am a only child. I can not tell you how much I would have like a brother or a sister. Matt do not have that. I am not saying it is always bed of roses. But through good and bad times, they can be a comfort. At the beginning of Bloodlines we saw Matt a nice guy, looking for love. Now we see him looking for sex and he doesn't care who he hurts to get it. Some one said Matt is like Jeff Hayes except rather than drugs Matt uses sex. I think that is true. Just as Jeff alienated everybody, I feel Matt is doing the same things. Tim talks about Will and Will's foolish mistakes. I would say look at Matt. Who seems to be throwing away everything just for easy sex. Matt sounds to me like that 5 yo  brat who can't take no for an answer. Yes he is hurting. But again I need to point out so are all these people. And what could have been a bonding experence with Wade and his other brothers and family didn't happen because Matt was only thinking of himself. Sorry it pains me to say that but it is true.

Edited January 11, 2014 by rjo

[Daddydavek]

In his responses to reviews and in the forum Mark gives us some of his insight into his character Matt.   While everyone reacts individually to grief, Mark has indicated that Matt was particularly affected by Robbie's death and was having a hard time.  He also said that Matt is clinging to his last year as an undergrad in an almost sophomoric way.  In another place he stated that Matt wasn't as screwed up as Robbie was in college and that would be hard to argue.  My point is, that Matt has been coming across as a bit of a shit lately, especially toward Wade who truly has his own crosses to bear.  That he also pointedly crossed the line with Tony despite Will's strong advice not to had to be somewhat calculated and not just a loss of hormonal control.  Finally, the chapter ended with Matt pissed off and going to see JP & Steff in mood not conducive to reason and I expect fireworks.  A controlled display from JP and Steff and an uncontrolled one from Matt.  My fear is that Matt could cross the line with JP and Steff and find himself in a really bad place.

 

Hopefully Mark has a solution for what I fear could be some really rough going for Matt.

[Kitt]

As I said in My review -

 

"Matt on the other hand knew exactly how much it would piss Will off for him to bed Tony, and apparently set out to do it anyway. And he did this knowing it would upset Wade almost as much as it would Will. Pushing the people you care about away in your grief is one thing - this is bordering on self destructive behavior. If something doesn't happen to pull his head out of his ass and put it back on his shoulders soon, the fall out might just be cataclysmic."

 

People keep bashing Will for behaving like a 15 yr old. How can the same people not get irritated by Matt - in his 20's and supposedly an adult - acting like a 13 yr old?

[Mark Arbour]

Apparently all Matt will need to do is screw Will, tell him a hard luck story about his parents not understanding him and everyone being mean to him.

 

He will get a new truck as a bonus

 

That's not the big issue with Matt and Will, and like many others have said, I can't see Will going there.  Will has a very strong sense of family, and he looked to Matt in that capacity, and Matt let him down.  It's unlikely that Will would turn around and do something similar to Wade.

 

I wonder if part of Matt's problem with Will is that Will doesn't seem to want to sleep with him? Not that either would ever go for it, but knowing guys think he's hot seems important to Matt's ego.

 

I don't think this is the case, but it is something I am curious about.

 

I kind of got annoyed at Will this chapter. On one hand, he's at least trying to act calmly. But the crap with Tony was exactly what everyone warned him would happen, and that he was supposed to not let splash anyone else. Just, gah.

 

Also, JJ doesn't like Matt because he's a bad judge of character. He likes him because he's always taken an at least distant interest on him, even when the rest of the family ranged from bored to annoyed with his interests. But it's typical of Will to not count that, and interesting for Mark to have highlighted that contrast.

 

I was also curious what would happen when Zach inevitably sleeps with someone else, especially if that someone else turns out to be JJ, whom Will specifically said would not do that. I often think Will doesn't live on the same planet as JJ, so I want to see those planets collide.

 

I don't think it's unresolved sexual tension, but then again, that wouldn't be the first time it's been an issue with Matt (think: Brad). Regarding colliding planets:  you're a sadist.

 

As I said in My review -

 

"Matt on the other hand knew exactly how much it would piss Will off for him to bed Tony, and apparently set out to do it anyway. And he did this knowing it would upset Wade almost as much as it would Will. Pushing the people you care about away in your grief is one thing - this is bordering on self destructive behavior. If something doesn't happen to pull his head out of his ass and put it back on his shoulders soon, the fall out might just be cataclysmic."

 

People keep bashing Will for behaving like a 15 yr old. How can the same people not get irritated by Matt - in his 20's and supposedly an adult - acting like a 13 yr old?

 

Will's a convenient whipping boy, because he's spoiled, bratty, and opinionated.  I find it humorous to watch how people react to him, even when he's right, because they can't get beyond those basic features.  Maybe I'm a sadist like B1ue.  Matt's been less obnoxious lately, but he had his share of scenes when he was younger...I'm thinking of when he beat the shit out of Brian. 

[PrivateTim]

At the beginning of Bloodlines we saw Matt a nice guy, looking for love. Now we see him looking for sex and he doesn't care who he hurts to get it. Some one said Matt is like Jeff Hayes except rather than drugs Matt uses sex. I think that is true. Just as Jeff alienated everybody, I feel Matt is doing the same things. Tim talks about Will and Will's foolish mistakes. I would say look at Matt. Who seems to be throwing away everything just for easy sex. Matt sounds to me like that 5 yo  brat who can't take no for an answer. Yes he is hurting. But again I need to point out so are all these people. And what could have been a bonding experence with Wade and his other brothers and family didn't happen because Matt was only thinking of himself. Sorry it pains me to say that but it is true.

 

I don't think what Matt is doing is looking for sex, I think there is a much deeper pathology going on that he is not even aware of. A subconscious self destructive motivation that all Hayes seem to have.

 

Looking at the Will/Matt comparisons people want to make in terms of maturity, people were okay with Will's destructive runaway episode because he felt unloved, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Yet Matt, who actually did have parents reject him, not once, but twice (being given up for adoption and the adoptive parents on finding out he was gay) isn't given the same latitude.

 

Yes everyone is hurting, but Will, Brad and the rest have an entire family structure that  they grew up in for support, Matt only has Wade and Wade hasn't stopped to really analyze Matt's behavior, he is just reacting to it.

 

And when you really think about it, it is all Arbour's fault anyway. If he had just killed off Tony as I've sweetly and subtly suggested, it never would have happened at all.

 

As I said in My review -

 

"Matt on the other hand knew exactly how much it would piss Will off for him to bed Tony, and apparently set out to do it anyway. And he did this knowing it would upset Wade almost as much as it would Will. Pushing the people you care about away in your grief is one thing - this is bordering on self destructive behavior. If something doesn't happen to pull his head out of his ass and put it back on his shoulders soon, the fall out might just be cataclysmic."

 

People keep bashing Will for behaving like a 15 yr old. How can the same people not get irritated by Matt - in his 20's and supposedly an adult - acting like a 13 yr old?

 

The difference is no one has said of Matt how mature he is, how wise beyond his years, how he will assume the mantle of leadership one day. Will is not just a 15 year old, he is an emancipated 15 year old who is an object of much praise for his decisions and the adults are criticized for questioning his judgment. If you want the responsibility of running your own life without question or interference, then you can't fall back on, "I'm just a kid."

 

 

That's not the big issue with Matt and Will, and like many others have said, I can't see Will going there.  Will has a very strong sense of family, and he looked to Matt in that capacity, and Matt let him down.  It's unlikely that Will would turn around and do something similar to Wade.

 

I think you understand that isn't what I was suggesting, but rather making a point.

 

Will has a very strong sense of family, but yet it was Zach who fucked with his family (John) after Will had turned him down explaining that he and John were promised to each other. Zach slept with John deliberately to strike back at Will for not sleeping with him. But a few lays and a football jersey latter, Will is contemplating is he in love with that same guy.

 

I am wondering where Will The Wise and Compassionate is? The Will who doesn't like being told what he can and can not do by people? If he stopped and contemplated his relationship with Matt and where Matt is in life right now I'd start to believe that Will is worthy of the praise he gets.

[Sammy Blue]

Looking at the Will/Matt comparisons people want to make in terms of maturity, people were okay with Will's destructive runaway episode because he felt unloved, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Yet Matt, who actually did have parents reject him, not once, but twice (being given up for adoption and the adoptive parents on finding out he was gay) isn't given the same latitude.

 

I can't really agree here. Will did run away when he was desperate and after that military nanny guy, I probably would have done the same. Yes, Matt has been rejected by his parents, but you can hardly comepare that to his situation. His parents are okay with him being gay now, and they have been for quite some time. Robbie didn't know about him existing, and once he learned about it, he did his best to make up for that. Also, at no point in time, Matt felt the despair of being totally at his parent's will. Even when they cut him off, it was not nice, true, but he simply went to JP and got some money to cover tuition and stuff. Will didn't even get that, when I remember back to Norway, even Stef fucked up there. Yes, Matt had some stuff in his past, too, but as far as I remember all of those things are completely fixed and forgotten.

 

Also, I completely understood Matt and his ways back then, when all that stuff happened. I even cut him some slack after that, but there is some point in time when that's over. Just like I expect Will to fully grow up at some point. There hasn't been much time since all that emancipation stuff happened, other than with Matt. There, it's years ago.

 

Now, Matt sure has reasons to be the way he is, but I don't see any of the things you mentioned having anyhing to do with it. Robbie's death? Sure. The whole clinging to his student life thing Mark mentioned? Yeah, might be.

 

I also don't see what you mean with the contrary evidance. Sure, Will is loved, and always was, but that doesn't change that people who love someone can also make mistakes. Brad did handle the whole situation very badly. If you think that he should have just beat up Will so Will becomes a nice little boy and does everything he is told, then I think we have to agree to disagree.^^

 

I suppose we can agree on one thing: Neither of those two is perfect and they both do hot-headed and immature decisions. The trend is for Will to grow up and for Matt to go backwards, though. At least that is my impression.

 

One more thing to add: I don't see how Will buying Zach a car (or something like that) compares to what Matt did.

 

Will has a very strong sense of family, but yet it was Zach who fucked with his family (John) after Will had turned him down explaining that he and John were promised to each other. Zach slept with John deliberately to strike back at Will for not sleeping with him. But a few lays and a football jersey latter, Will is contemplating is he in love with that same guy.

 

I am wondering where Will The Wise and Compassionate is? The Will who doesn't like being told what he can and can not do by people? If he stopped and contemplated his relationship with Matt and where Matt is in life right now I'd start to believe that Will is worthy of the praise he gets.

 

I think that Will is right where you mentioned him in the paragraph before. He is very forgiving of people when he feels that they actually feel sorry for what they did and that they have changed. I can't remember him bearing any grudges. I was actually pissed off at him for a few times when he simply let things go.

 

However, you are also right. I hope that Will doesn't totally blow up on this one. Without Wade's intervention he probably would have, and that might have caused a lot of trouble. I think he would've let himself go down to Matt's level and that shows that he probably still is immature sometimes. That being said, I also doubt that Matt will see what he did wrong, at least not all that easily.

 

Even though Tony is kind of already out of the picture for Will, it doesn't change what Matt did. What would you say if your brother fucked your lover (or whatever) behind your back even though you made it clear that it was off limits? Because that is technically the situation. I'm sure that neither of us would say "Oh my, you just lost your father (who was my father, too, remember?) and then I can really understand what you did, even if you give a fuck about me and don't even see what you did wrong..." Or would anyone here react like that?

 

Will is forgiving, as I said, but not if people don't want to be forgiven (i.e. don't see what they should be forgiven for in the first place).

 

Actually, I'm sure if Matt would go to Will and say like: "You know what? I was being stupid. I did it to piss you off and now I see how wrong that was. I'm really sorry I fucked him and broke the trust you had. I will not do it again and I'm really sorry. Forgive me pwetty pwetty please with a cherry on top?"

-> if he would do that, and mean it, then I think Will would actually get over it quickly. He might still burn down Matt's car but I think that a couple days later it will be all forgotten.

 

Now if Matt is all like "you know what, fuck you, I do what I want and I'll fuck Zach next", then it would get really ugly. No matter what Matt's situation, I doubt Will would forgive him that. Not because he is immature but because it means much more than that. It means that Matt can't be trusted and that he is willing to harm the relationships his brother(s and other family members) have, just because he can. And I don't think Will would be immature for making an issue out of it. I would probably do the same thing (if not with such a big blowup like Will would).

Edited January 11, 2014 by Sammy Blue

[Kitt]

 Matt only has Wade and Wade hasn't stopped to really analyze Matt's behavior, he is just reacting to it.

 

 

 

The difference is no one has said of Matt how mature he is, how wise beyond his years, how he will assume the mantle of leadership one day.

 

Matt only has Wade?  Then I guess his adoptive parents with whom he has reconciled, his biological grandfather Frank and soon to be ( if she isn't already) step grandmother, and all the other people of the Crampton/Shulter family who welcomed Matt into their home, supported him through the financial difficulties after he was outted, and generally accepted him as family don't count?

 

 

Wade is reacting and not thinking? Maybe. But he HAS ALSO LOST HIS FATHER. And not a second father he had just recently found, as is the case with Matt. He has lost the ONLY father he has.

 

 

And no one is saying Matt is mature and wise because he is acting like a spoiled 13 yr old, not the 20-something college senior he is. Going out and bedding Tony in spite of being very aware that it would not only hurt Will but would also bother Wade seems to me to be the sort of thing i had to deal with while working with 5th graders. "I'm gonna do it just cause you told me not to."

 

 

I know Sammy Blue was asking Tim, but I would like to answer his question. If my sibling ever slept with my partner (or even attempted to) there would be hell to pay. That is something no one should have to ever even warn a sibling about - let alone have happen AFTER you had made it clear it was unacceptable.  

Edited January 11, 2014 by Kitt

[methodwriter85]

 

The end of college (undergrad years) can be one of the most stressful times.  Matt and Wade are heading toward that, toward May, like a rocket, and they're at completely different places.

 

     Actually, their graduation is June 16th, 2002, as per the 2001-2002 Stanford University Academic Calendar. It's that whole quarter system thing going on...UD has a semi-quarter system going on, and as a result our graduation isn't until late May. It'd make sense that people who go to a school that is on a full quarter system don't graduate until June.

[mmike1969]

If my sibling ever slept with my partner (or even attempted to) there would be hell to pay. That is something no one should have to ever even warn a sibling about - let alone have happen AFTER you had made it clear it was unacceptable. [/size]

You are damned right there will be HELL to pay! My parents would scream "you are gay too???!?!!"

[rjo]

Back in 1995 I was in New York at Montel William's talk show. His guests were two sister who slept with each other boy friends and have babies from each one. Montel replied that civilized people don't do things like this. Matt was brought up in Shaker Heights. In a upper middle class household. He should know better. even if he didn't think of Will as his brother. Will was still Robbie's son. Matt should have known better. That is not taking into consideration Wade feelings, his partner. The person Matt exchanged rings with less than a year ago. If a friend came up tho me and said please don't sleep with his guy, I have feelings for him. I would not even think about it. Again this has nothing to do with grief, but has to do with total disregard of common decentesy, Sorry but I is how I see it. I can only hope JP points that out to him.

Edited January 12, 2014 by rjo

[methodwriter85]

 

I was also curious what would happen when Zach inevitably sleeps with someone else, especially if that someone else turns out to be JJ, whom Will specifically said would not do that. I often think Will doesn't live on the same planet as JJ, so I want to see those planets collide.

 

    I would love to see that happen, but I don't think it will...Mark's been pretty clear in his stance that he's not going to have the brothers fighting over boys. (Matt in doing so pretty much marked himself as NOT being a brother.) This is where CAP differs from the typical soap opera- on a regular soap, it would be de riguer for us to see siblings duking it out over love interests.

 

    Anyway, I knew a bisexual guy who got hit on by his wife's gay brother twice- said brother actually hit on him on the day Aaron was marrying his sister.  Talk about fucked up.

 

Also, JJ doesn't like Matt because he's a bad judge of character. He likes him because he's always taken an at least distant interest on him, even when the rest of the family ranged from bored to annoyed with his interests. But it's typical of Will to not count that, and interesting for Mark to have highlighted that contrast.

 

 

 

      Really good point. I imagine this is distressing him to some extent...JJ may be pretty self-absorbed, but he also loves Matt, and he's the only one that Matt really has been a brother to.

[B1ue]

I don't think it's unresolved sexual tension, but then again, that wouldn't be the first time it's been an issue with Matt (think: Brad). Regarding colliding planets:  you're a sadist.

 

I may have been unclear. I was speculating if it was the very lack of unresolved sexual tension that was putting Matt off. And, ironically, I think it's because on Matt's end he sees Will as a brother by virtue of being Robbie's son, in a way he didn't see Brad as being a step-father despite being Robbie's partner. But that's just a guess. It's more likely he simply sees Will as his chronological age, unlike everyone else.

 

The difference is no one has said of Matt how mature he is, how wise beyond his years, how he will assume the mantle of leadership one day. Will is not just a 15 year old, he is an emancipated 15 year old who is an object of much praise for his decisions and the adults are criticized for questioning his judgment. If you want the responsibility of running your own life without question or interference, then you can't fall back on, "I'm just a kid."

 

To build on this point, speaking for myself, there are two reasons I feel less inclined to challenge Matt's behavior. One, I flat don't think he did anything wrong. He did something stupid, because there's no way he can contain the consequences, but that's not quite the same thing. I realize I am in the minority on that opinion, but whatever. Maybe it wouldn't have bothered Will as much if he'd more completely ended the sexual side of their relationship. He's acting, and most are reacting, as if Tony and he were actively dating. I saw the situation, and Matt was acting, as if they were broken up. I imagine that discrepancy is fueling a lot of the angst.

 

As an aside, I don't have to guess what it'd be like if a sibling slept with someone I was also sleeping with (an aside to the aside, I found Rjo's comment that "brothers would never do something like this, because in my experience they absolutely would). I got over it. Pretty fast too. Primarily because, like Will, I decided that I was no longer in being in that kind of relationship with that person. Unlike Will, I did not declare them persona non grata, and I wouldn't have even if I could have. I just don't function like that.

 

The second reason I don't feel inclined to challenge Matt is that the narrative is doing a good job of doing it for me. With the exceptions of Tony and Matt themselves, everyone thinks Matt wronged Will. I'm not certain in Matt's case, if it is guilt that made him try and hide his indiscretion, or a desire to evade the consequences because he knows any little thing will set Will off. In contrast, no one is challenging Will's victimhood, so I feel more of a need to ask questions and provoke insight into the character's actions.

 

I do have a question. Rjo stated, and others have declined to challenge that statement, that JJ would not sleep with someone Will was interested in. Jeremy gave an editorial response reflecting Mark's intentions (which while very useful, is only as accurate as long as Mark doesn't change his mind), and so I buy that, but I am curious why others are so sure of JJ's character. I will agree that Will won't, assuming that he continues to think of it in those terms and doesn't find a way to justify it to himself like he did at the ice skating competition or with Alastair or Ethan's friend, but I just don't know for JJ. He's a bit of an enigma, despite the amount of time we spend analyzing his character, we've had little on-page insight into the way his mind works. In fact, what we do know about him, that he has a tendency to bottle things and slap on either a happy face or mask of disdain, that his mental climate does not necessarily affect his outward actions (although it does sometimes leak), makes it less easy to figure out how he'd jump given temptation. I am not saying Rjo is incorrect in his analysis; I am wondering aloud what is driving the surety behind the analysis.

 

When it comes to characters, I am absolutely a sadist. It makes me happy to see characters go through the wringer, when it's done well.

[Mark Arbour]

I may have been unclear. I was speculating if it was the very lack of unresolved sexual tension that was putting Matt off. And, ironically, I think it's because on Matt's end he sees Will as a brother by virtue of being Robbie's son, in a way he didn't see Brad as being a step-father despite being Robbie's partner. But that's just a guess. It's more likely he simply sees Will as his chronological age, unlike everyone else.

 

 

Makes sense. 

 

To build on this point, speaking for myself, there are two reasons I feel less inclined to challenge Matt's behavior. One, I flat don't think he did anything wrong. He did something stupid, because there's no way he can contain the consequences, but that's not quite the same thing. I realize I am in the minority on that opinion, but whatever. Maybe it wouldn't have bothered Will as much if he'd more completely ended the sexual side of their relationship. He's acting, and most are reacting, as if Tony and he were actively dating. I saw the situation, and Matt was acting, as if they were broken up. I imagine that discrepancy is fueling a lot of the angst.

 

As an aside, I don't have to guess what it'd be like if a sibling slept with someone I was also sleeping with (an aside to the aside, I found Rjo's comment that "brothers would never do something like this, because in my experience they absolutely would). I got over it. Pretty fast too. Primarily because, like Will, I decided that I was no longer in being in that kind of relationship with that person. Unlike Will, I did not declare them persona non grata, and I wouldn't have even if I could have. I just don't function like that.

 

The second reason I don't feel inclined to challenge Matt is that the narrative is doing a good job of doing it for me. With the exceptions of Tony and Matt themselves, everyone thinks Matt wronged Will. I'm not certain in Matt's case, if it is guilt that made him try and hide his indiscretion, or a desire to evade the consequences because he knows any little thing will set Will off. In contrast, no one is challenging Will's victimhood, so I feel more of a need to ask questions and provoke insight into the character's actions.

 

 

 

 

There are some who don't see this as a big deal, but I do.  But as you noted, we all come at this with our own value systems, so we're bound to have different reads.  To my way of thinking, which is similar to RJO, I really don't think Will should have even had to ask Matt to stay away from Tony.   Matt knew that Will and Tony had some sort of thing going on, and that should be enough of a reason.  Maybe Matt thought Will was being a drama queen about the whole thing? But then again, when Wade pulled Carl off the table in Paternity, that didn't really stop Matt either.  Matt treated Will like he'd treat a bud he didn't know all that well, where you go out and bang that guy's girl/boyfriend and hope they don't find out. 

 

I do have a question. Rjo stated, and others have declined to challenge that statement, that JJ would not sleep with someone Will was interested in. Jeremy gave an editorial response reflecting Mark's intentions (which while very useful, is only as accurate as long as Mark doesn't change his mind), and so I buy that, but I am curious why others are so sure of JJ's character. I will agree that Will won't, assuming that he continues to think of it in those terms and doesn't find a way to justify it to himself like he did at the ice skating competition or with Alastair or Ethan's friend, but I just don't know for JJ. He's a bit of an enigma, despite the amount of time we spend analyzing his character, we've had little on-page insight into the way his mind works. In fact, what we do know about him, that he has a tendency to bottle things and slap on either a happy face or mask of disdain, that his mental climate does not necessarily affect his outward actions (although it does sometimes leak), makes it less easy to figure out how he'd jump given temptation. I am not saying Rjo is incorrect in his analysis; I am wondering aloud what is driving the surety behind the analysis.

 

 

 

 

Mark certainly can change his mind.     I think that it would seem, at face value, that JJ wouldn't do something like that for a couple of reasons.  First of all, JJ's a sexual neophyte, and he's also pretty uptight about anything sexual, so it's unlikely he'd be the predatory kind of guy to do that.  The second thing is that after seeing what happened with Matt, he's definitely not going to want to go down that path.  He has his own life, and isn't overly tied to his brothers at this point, but he does seem to rely on them and respect them.  To lose both Will and Darius (or have those relationships damaged) is probably something not worth any sexual gratification.

That being said, things certainly could change.  I could see a 17/18 year old JJ, with hormones raging, being much more tempted, especially if he were annoyed by Will (or Darius). 

 

You raise another issue, and that is one of Will hooking up with Alistair and Evan.  I think that if JJ had a relationship with either one of them, it would have been a big deal for Will to mess around with them.  In Norway things were pretty discombobulated, but Will didn't do anything with Evan after JJ told him not to.  I don't see how Will fooling around with Ethan's friend falls into the same category, since Will really doesn't have a sibling relationship with Ethan. 

 

When it comes to characters, I am absolutely a sadist. It makes me happy to see characters go through the wringer, when it's done well.

 

 

 I try.

[Sammy Blue]

I do have a question. Rjo stated, and others have declined to challenge that statement, that JJ would not sleep with someone Will was interested in. (...)

 

I am actually not so sure about this one. I think a while back I would've said that JJ might well do it. We have seen a lot of changes in JJ, though. Often, when I think of JJ and Will I remember the scene when JJ took off his ring and marched out together with Will, or the scene in the bus between the two of them, after Robbie died. I doubt that JJ would deliberately hurt Will. It is hard to really read him, though, and there might be many factors playing in. Maybe one could say it is very unlikely, but never say never? (You never know what kind of drama lies ahead, lol)

 

Also, it seems kind of hypothetic to me. JJ is not exactly the guy to fuck around at all, and even less with someone who fucks around with his brother. I think the last intimate scenes of him have shown that very clearly.

---

Haha Mark was faster... well, what he said

Edited January 12, 2014 by Sammy Blue

[rjo]

Thanks Mark. see if you wouldn't write so good, nobody would care and you wouldn't have all this termoil. Thank God that isn't the case. I am not sure but I am really disappointed with Matt. I could understand him and his free open lifestyle, No problem, but then don't have a relationship. He must be able to see how much pain it is causing Wade. If you say you love someone, how can you do that?  I am hoping that JP can get through to him. Once Brad was talking to Robbie and he said lying cheating partners were worth nothing at all.  he was right. I await JP's wisdom. He is the only person Matt will listen too.

[Westie]

So, my first post in a while, but I would like to pose this.

 

Everyone is excusing some of Will's more unacceptable behaviour as a symptom of grief. As well they should because I know from experience that Grief can hit you hard and you can end up doing things that normally you wouldn't dream of. After a traumatic death, this can be even worse.

 

With that in mind, I'm wondering why everyone is so quick to condemn Matt. He shunned Wade, and went on a hell-for-leather guy-fest that culminated in someone completely off limits. Does this not strike anyone of some classic Grief at work? We have a guy who is immediately shunning intimacy with the one person who knows him best, and is seeking release through casual hookups. He is mad at the world, at fate, and at society in general. Give this guy a rule and he's going to break it.

 

I'm very surprised that this did not immediately occur to JP.

[Kitt]

To build on this point, speaking for myself, there are two reasons I feel less inclined to challenge Matt's behavior. One, I flat don't think he did anything wrong. He did something stupid, because there's no way he can contain the consequences, but that's not quite the same thing. 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I think Matt IS wrong - it is wrong to sleep with someone you know has any sort of a relationship with your brother, no matter how tenuous that brotherhood is, it is wrong to be sleeping with everything he can possibly lure into a bed, and it is wrong to lie and hide things just to avoid the consequences.

 

 

 

 

I do have a question. Rjo stated, and others have declined to challenge that statement, that JJ would not sleep with someone Will was interested in.

 

I can only speak to myself in this, but I have chosen not to voice an opinion one way or the other on this assertion because I don't feel I know enough about JJ and what he would or would not do.  I think he has shown a certain solidarity with his siblings in the past and would hope it would extend to this sort of situation, but I simply do not know.

 

As for Wills time with Ethan's buddy and Allister, as well as the games at the ice competition, none of the guys involved were known to be in an intimate relationship with anyone. Ethan's buddy was, so far as we know, just that - a school chum. Allister was a friend of JJ's, but of no romantic association, and had there been any I can't see either Will or Allister going there. The guys at the ice competition? Once JJ asked for Evan to be off limits, didn't Will do just that?

 

Everyone is excusing some of Will's more unacceptable behaviour as a symptom of grief. As well they should because I know from experience that Grief can hit you hard and you can end up doing things that normally you wouldn't dream of. After a traumatic death, this can be even worse.

Other than the purchase of the car, what unacceptable behavior has Will indulged in that anyone is excusing as grief induced?

 

 

All of that said - I still think Matt is on an extremely self destructive path, and on the verge of losing Wade.  He started down that path quite a while before Robbie's death with his sexual exploits. Grief may be accelerating the process, but it is far from the cause. Matt needs to get professional help before he ends up like some of his relatives. Right now I am thinking Wade would be much better off with his lawyer friend.

[rjo]

I can't remember many times I disagreed with Westie. This time I do. I love you Kitt!! I have only two points to make.

 

 

1. Even though Matt says he loves Wade, which in some way I believe he does. Still he continues to break Wade's heart by sleeping around, long before Robbie's death. Because of that you can not blame it on grief.

 

 

2. Second Matt never really accepted Darius, JJ, Will as his brothers. You could argue about JJ, but I think friend or mentor would define it better. He took JJ under his wing but I don't think ever had his back, like brothers should.

Edited January 12, 2014 by rjo

[Daddydavek]

Westie's point is a summation of what Mark has been saying about Matt.  Mark went further and stated he doubted anyone really realizes just how impacted Matt was by 9.11.   So I'm sure that emotional baggage is certainly a big part Matt's actions but RJO is right.  Matt has been less thoughtful of Wade's sensibilities forever and more apt to overreact to Wade's dips on the wild side in response to his own.   Additionally, Matt has been somewhat reconciled with the parents who raised him.  

 

While I'm sure that JP can see Matt from a more balanced perspective, JP is all about family loyalty and Matt is not.  And that is why I suspect big changes, even so far as Matt graduating and going into the military.....

[Kitt]

I can see some whopper changes coming in Matt's life too, but I am not sure the military is in the cards. Recruits, both enlisted and OCS candidates, are expected to play by the rules, something Matt has shown a distinct lack of interest in lately.

[methodwriter85]

    Matt has Google stock, Robbie's company stock, a trust fund that was likely set up by JP in 1998, and not to mention his Carrswold inheritance. If worse comes to worse, Matt would probably get a job after graduation working the business side of his dad's laser eye centers, but I really doubt Matt will have trouble getting into grad school, even if it's not a top-tier one. I can't see military in the cards for Matt, either- unless he had a burning desire to "avenge" Robbie's death.

[PrivateTim]

Matt only has Wade?  Then I guess his adoptive parents with whom he has reconciled, his biological grandfather Frank and soon to be ( if she isn't already) step grandmother, and all the other people of the Crampton/Shulter family who welcomed Matt into their home, supported him through the financial difficulties after he was outted, and generally accepted him as family don't count?

I know Sammy Blue was asking Tim, but I would like to answer his question. If my sibling ever slept with my partner (or even attempted to) there would be hell to pay. That is something no one should have to ever even warn a sibling about - let alone have happen AFTER you had made it clear it was unacceptable.  

 

Yes, Matt only has Wade and his family back in Ohio, who can't help/support him in CA if Will wants to push a "choose him or me scenario" as is his wont.

 

But of course the point would be that Tony is not Will's partner. In fact Will made it pretty clear that for the foreseeable future they were only FWBs.

 

Back in 1995 I was in New York at Montel William's talk show. His guests were two sister who slept with each other boy friends and have babies from each one. Montel replied that civilized people don't do things like this. Matt was brought up in Shaker Heights. In a upper middle class household. He should know better. even if he didn't think of Will as his brother. Will was still Robbie's son. Matt should have known better. That is not taking into consideration Wade feelings, his partner. The person Matt exchanged rings with less than a year ago. If a friend came up tho me and said please don't sleep with his guy, I have feelings for him. I would not even think about it. Again this has nothing to do with grief, but has to do with total disregard of common decentesy, Sorry but I is how I see it. I can only hope JP points that out to him.

 

The trouble is, in this modern world of moral relativism, whose definition of common decency do we use? Yours or mine or someone elses?

 

It slays me that people think Matt did something wrong by sleeping with Tony, who is not Will's boyfriend, but NO ONE had an issue with Brad sleeping with his step son's partner? That is okay in the world of common decency?

 

 

There are some who don't see this as a big deal, but I do.  But as you noted, we all come at this with our own value systems, so we're bound to have different reads.  To my way of thinking, which is similar to RJO, I really don't think Will should have even had to ask Matt to stay away from Tony.   Matt knew that Will and Tony had some sort of thing going on, and that should be enough of a reason.  Maybe Matt thought Will was being a drama queen about the whole thing? But then again, when Wade pulled Carl off the table in Paternity, that didn't really stop Matt either.  Matt treated Will like he'd treat a bud he didn't know all that well, where you go out and bang that guy's girl/boyfriend and hope they don't find out. 

 

You raise another issue, and that is one of Will hooking up with Alistair and Evan.  I think that if JJ had a relationship with either one of them, it would have been a big deal for Will to mess around with them.  In Norway things were pretty discombobulated, but Will didn't do anything with Evan after JJ told him not to.  I don't see how Will fooling around with Ethan's friend falls into the same category, since Will really doesn't have a sibling relationship with Ethan. 

 

Wait....  Will shouldn't have had to ask Matt to stay away from Tony, who isn't his boyfriend, while he is banging Zach, who screwed over him and his cousin and caused a big rift in the family with Brad and Claire and everyone else, but Matt DID have to tell his step father to not bang his partner?

 

As to Ethan's friend........  common decency would say you don't suck off any house guest who is the guest of a guest, especially when you don't know the relationship between the two, ESPECIALLY when the guest is the brother of someone you consider a brother. But it is another case of Will wanting to do whatever Will wants with ZERO consideration of anyone else. In Norway he had no consideration of how his sexploits in the skating world would effect JJ, he had no consideration about Wally & Clara when he bought the truck, he had no consideration for Ethan when he hooked up with his friend. Will thinks there are no limits of any kind on him.

 

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I think Matt IS wrong - it is wrong to sleep with someone you know has any sort of a relationship with your brother, no matter how tenuous that brotherhood is, it is wrong to be sleeping with everything he can possibly lure into a bed, and it is wrong to lie and hide things just to avoid the consequences.

 

As for Wills time with Ethan's buddy and Allister, as well as the games at the ice competition, none of the guys involved were known to be in an intimate relationship with anyone. Ethan's buddy was, so far as we know, just that - a school chum. Allister was a friend of JJ's, but of no romantic association, and had there been any I can't see either Will or Allister going there. The guys at the ice competition? Once JJ asked for Evan to be off limits, didn't Will do just that?

 

Why is wrong to sleep with someone NOT in a relationship with anyone?

 

Will certainly had no problem sleeping with Erik (or was it Kyle) knowing full well he was in a relationship. It is not that Will did not have any sort of a familial relationship with either, but that "common decency" says you do not sleep with someone in a committed relationship.

 

I would also ask what textual evidence you can point to that says Ethan and his friend were just buddies? Did Will ask? Did Will even care? Would it have stopped him if he had known?

 

As to Norway, JJ asked Will to not sleep with ANYONE. What was Will's response? He negotiated. How about a simple, "okay because you asked me JJ my brother, I'll keep my dick in my pants for THREE DAYS." Would that have been so hard for Will to do in consideration to JJ?

[rjo]

This is the point I think Matt should do something like Prince William did a off year, in which he can find himself. He needs to sort himself out, and find what he truly wants out of life. I think I would be good for him. Working with the poor in a foreign land.

[mmike1969]

My head is spinning. Someone put up an info graph to show how everyone is related and who slept with whom.