9.11

[methodwriter85]

   It's impossible. People who've tried making family trees have given up. A sex chart would be even more impossible.

 

 

This is the point I think Matt should do something like Prince William did a off year, in which he can find himself. He needs to sort himself out, and find what he truly wants out of life. I think I would be good for him. Working with the poor in a foreign land.

 

     It would be good for Matt, but I can't exactly see Mark sending off Matt to spend a year building shelters in South America. I can't even get Mark to have Will do Habitat for Humanity for Spring Break, and Will is actually supposed to do volunteer work as part of his graduation requirement from Menlo.

 

     Remember, Mark's a Reagan Generation/Generation Jones Guy. They were far more cynical than either the Baby Boomers or their kids. They didn't have the idealism of JFK to shape them, and volunteer work wasn't a requirement with them like it would have been with people in Will's generation. I remember Jamie Lee Curtis once marveling at how her kids were going off to Chile to work with impoverished people, when at that age all she cared about doing was improving her suntan.

Edited January 13, 2014 by methodwriter85

[Mark Arbour]

Yes, Matt only has Wade and his family back in Ohio, who can't help/support him in CA if Will wants to push a "choose him or me scenario" as is his wont.

 

 

Will hasn't said anything like that at all.  In fact, the overriding push here has been for him NOT to do that, and from his conversation with Wade, it seems that he gets why that's a bad idea.

 

 

But of course the point would be that Tony is not Will's partner. In fact Will made it pretty clear that for the foreseeable future they were only FWBs.

 

The trouble is, in this modern world of moral relativism, whose definition of common decency do we use? Yours or mine or someone elses?

 

It slays me that people think Matt did something wrong by sleeping with Tony, who is not Will's boyfriend, but NO ONE had an issue with Brad sleeping with his step son's partner? That is okay in the world of common decency?

 

 

 

I think that Brad sleeping with Wade would have pushed into the same basic moral arena as sleeping with someone your brother was into, with one major exception:  Matt was fine with it, and encouraged Wade.  The only one who had grounds to object was Robbie, and he had his own issues to answer for. 

 

Wait....  Will shouldn't have had to ask Matt to stay away from Tony, who isn't his boyfriend, while he is banging Zach, who screwed over him and his cousin and caused a big rift in the family with Brad and Claire and everyone else, but Matt DID have to tell his step father to not bang his partner?

 

As to Ethan's friend........  common decency would say you don't suck off any house guest who is the guest of a guest, especially when you don't know the relationship between the two, ESPECIALLY when the guest is the brother of someone you consider a brother. But it is another case of Will wanting to do whatever Will wants with ZERO consideration of anyone else. In Norway he had no consideration of how his sexploits in the skating world would effect JJ, he had no consideration about Wally & Clara when he bought the truck, he had no consideration for Ethan when he hooked up with his friend. Will thinks there are no limits of any kind on him.

 

 

 

Why is wrong to sleep with someone NOT in a relationship with anyone?

 

Will certainly had no problem sleeping with Erik (or was it Kyle) knowing full well he was in a relationship. It is not that Will did not have any sort of a familial relationship with either, but that "common decency" says you do not sleep with someone in a committed relationship.

 

I would also ask what textual evidence you can point to that says Ethan and his friend were just buddies? Did Will ask? Did Will even care? Would it have stopped him if he had known?

 

As to Norway, JJ asked Will to not sleep with ANYONE. What was Will's response? He negotiated. How about a simple, "okay because you asked me JJ my brother, I'll keep my dick in my pants for THREE DAYS." Would that have been so hard for Will to do in consideration to JJ?

 

 

 

Everyone has a right to their opinion on this, but these arguments are disingenuous.  The issue here was that Will asked his brother not to sleep with a guy he was into.  That's a pretty simple request, since Matt had no prior romantic/sexual relationship with Tony.  The other comparisons you make are irrelevant, but I'll point out why:

 

Zach slept with John (Will's cousin) and caused problems with their relationships.  This one comes closest to the Matt-Tony thing, IMHO, but Zach has the benefit of being 14 at the time (Matt is 20).  I'd note that Zach spent over a year ostracized by most family members.  Maybe that's a just punishment for Matt?

 

With Ethan's friend you're stretching the relationship limits pretty far.  The friend of a brother of a guy Will considers to be his brother, even though Will just met the guy (Ethan) and doesn't really like him all that much.  And of course, that assumes that Ethan and his friend have some kind of relationship, when there was no indication that they did.  And it ignores the fact that Ethan's friend was actually more aggressive in hitting on Will, than Will was with the friend.  If they had a relationship, shouldn't Ethan's friend have said something?

 

And finally, JJ telling Will not to sleep with anyone when they were in Norway was a little extreme.  It is the equivalent of Will telling Matt not to sleep with anyone he knew: it's too broad of a range to have an objection to.  When JJ did single out Evan, Will left him alone.  You argued before that it wasn't fair for Will to tell Matt who he could have sex with; doesn't this fall into that same category?

 

And none of these examples or issues overrides the basic issue here:  It's a shitty thing to do to sleep with someone your brother has a romantic relationships with, ESPECIALLY when he tells you not to.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Mark Arbour

[Sammy Blue]

Thank you Mark!

 

I wanted to reply and point these things out (I completely agree with you and had the same things on my mind), but kind of backed out because this is making me too emotional and posting emotional is never good when you're back from partying, and drunk. ^^

 

It's kind of funny how we're taking sides and arguing this whole thing. I cannot understand Tim's reasoning at all, and sometimes it even gets me really annoyed. Not only in this case but also previously (not Tim in particular, I just mean the general discussion). However, I now realize that this kind of makes us all a little part of the CAP family (or the CAP family a part of us). We don't always see reason and we have different opinons about things, just like Will and Matt and Brad and so on do.

 

It seems that certain people do have certain favorites. I at least know that rjo and me are almost always on Will's side, and I have a feeling that Tim really doesn't like him at all. It might get to me sometimes, but that's okay. Even good, I think. No hard feelings, Tim, and others I disagree with sometimes!

 

I'm as fond of you as Will of the bitchy JJ. I might be annoyed that you see things completely different from how I do, but at the end of the day we are still all on the same page: We are CAP readers and we love this story!

 

And just like in CAP, we're not in the agreement corner here. Without some different opinions, this thread would be boring. Bitching about Zach's car is half the fun.

 

(ok, I'm going to pass out now and I hope when I wake up tomorrow that I don't think this is complete BS )

Night!

Edited January 13, 2014 by Sammy Blue

[PrivateTim]

I think that Brad sleeping with Wade would have pushed into the same basic moral arena as sleeping with someone your brother was into, with one major exception:  Matt was fine with it, and encouraged Wade.  The only one who had grounds to object was Robbie, and he had his own issues to answer for. 

 

Everyone has a right to their opinion on this, but these arguments are disingenuous.  The issue here was that Will asked his brother not to sleep with a guy he was into.  That's a pretty simple request, since Matt had no prior romantic/sexual relationship with Tony.  The other comparisons you make are irrelevant, but I'll point out why:

 

Zach slept with John (Will's cousin) and caused problems with their relationships.  This one comes closest to the Matt-Tony thing, IMHO, but Zach has the benefit of being 14 at the time (Matt is 20).  I'd note that Zach spent over a year ostracized by most family members.  Maybe that's a just punishment for Matt?

 

With Ethan's friend you're stretching the relationship limits pretty far.  The friend of a brother of a guy Will considers to be his brother, even though Will just met the guy (Ethan) and doesn't really like him all that much.  And of course, that assumes that Ethan and his friend have some kind of relationship, when there was no indication that they did.  And it ignores the fact that Ethan's friend was actually more aggressive in hitting on Will, than Will was with the friend.  If they had a relationship, shouldn't Ethan's friend have said something?

 

And finally, JJ telling Will not to sleep with anyone when they were in Norway was a little extreme.  It is the equivalent of Will telling Matt not to sleep with anyone he knew: it's too broad of a range to have an objection to.  When JJ did single out Evan, Will left him alone.  You argued before that it wasn't fair for Will to tell Matt who he could have sex with; doesn't this fall into that same category?

 

And none of these examples or issues overrides the basic issue here:  It's a shitty thing to do to sleep with someone your brother has a romantic relationships with, ESPECIALLY when he tells you not to.

 

The overarching theme has been "common decency" and Matt was "wrong", but in a world of moral relativism, no one gets to judge anyone else's actions.

 

With Brad and Wade it is not that Matt gave his go ahead, but in what world is sleeping with the partner of your step son considered morally okay? If you are going to bust Matt's balls because he is Will's "brother", then that makes him your step son too.

 

You can say "I wouldn't do that" and grab what you think is the moral high ground, but in a universe where everyone has their own definition of right and wrong there is no right and wrong.

 

JJ didn't ask Will to not sleep with "anyone in Norway", he asked Will to not sleep with any of the people in his world, the skaters. Will had 100,000 Norwegian men and boys he could have slept with in Oslo, but Will was shitting in the middle JJ's party and didn't even understand why that was wrong or possibly hurtful to JJ and possibly damaging to the skaters he was involved with.

 

I didn't argue that it was unfair of Will to tell Matt who he could and could net sleep with, but hypocritical because Will hates being told such things.

 

The point with Joe, Ethan's friend, is not if Joe flirted with Will first or whether or not Will likes Ethan. I don't think Matt likes Will all that much, so is it therefore okay for Matt to sleep with Tony because he doesn't like Will? The point is I would not sleep with a house guest who was the guest of another guest, even if they hit on me because I would not step in the middle of their friendship, even if it was just a friendship. The point with Will is that he did not stop for one second and consider anyone else in the equation, he did what he wanted, when he wanted. That is not the attitude of someone mature, that is an ill mannered, inconsiderate lout.

 

For Sammy, it is not a case of liking or disliking Will, but wanting Will to grow the fuck up and start caring about someone besides himself. REALLY caring, not caring about someone who is useful to him or a good fuck, but someone who can't do anything for him. Why no compassion for Ethan (that translates into action) who has had life 100x rougher than Zach? Because Ethan is fat and unattractive to Will?

[Daddydavek]

I think it's apparent that Tim's birthday wasn't as completely fun filled and diverting as I hoped....

[rjo]

Sorry I missed that A very Happy Birthday to Tim!!!

[methodwriter85]

 

  This one comes closest to the Matt-Tony thing, IMHO, but Zach has the benefit of being 14 at the time (Matt is 20).  I'd note that Zach spent over a year ostracized by most family members.  Maybe that's a just punishment for Matt?

   

      Matt's actually 21. He would have turned 21 on April 24th, 2001. We just skipped over the event of his 21st birthday as we didn't cover the spring of '01.

 

 

I think it's apparent that Tim's birthday wasn't as completely fun filled and diverting as I hoped....

 

        He's 37. The countdown to forty is officially on. I would have had a big ol' blast. They say a person's early 40's are the best.

 

       It's weird for me though that people born in the mid/late 1970's are starting to hit their late 30's/push 40. I tend to think of them as being the early 30-somethings. Buffy is turning 37 in the spring. How weird is that? So is the girl who made a hit out of her barely legal underwear video when she was 19.

 

 

Because Ethan is fat and unattractive to Will?

 

    Ethan's not unattractive to Will because he's fat. He's unattractive to Will because of his awkward, surly personality. Will's mentioned that he likes beefy guys, so I'm sure with a cool personality he would have been all up in that early on. Ethan also seems rather immature, both physically and behavior-wise, another deterrent to Will being attracted to him.

[Kitt]

 

 

You can say "I wouldn't do that" and grab what you think is the moral high ground, but in a universe where everyone has their own definition of right and wrong there is no right and wrong.

 

 

 

 The point with Will is that he did not stop for one second and consider anyone else in the equation, he did what he wanted, when he wanted. That is not the attitude of someone mature, that is an ill mannered, inconsiderate lout.

 

 

If your point is that there is no right or wrong in the world of relative morality - then why do you keep shredding Will for being wrong?  You decided at some point that you dislike the fact Will was emancipated and use that to to say he should be acting like an adult, yet fail to hold Matt - an adult - to the same standard?

 

You say that acting on your impulses without considering the impact on others makes one an ill-mannered inconsiderate lout. What does that make a 21 year old ( read supposed adult) who HAS considered the fall out - not just as it affects Will but Wade as well - and goes out and does it anyway?   I can think of a lot of words for that - but I think your word when we were discussing that exec from Connecticut fits best -  douche bag

 

. IMHO this is NOT about if Will and Tony are involved. It IS about two supposed brothers - something Will seemed to feel existed but Matt seems to feel doesn't - respecting each others feelings. It is NOT about if Will has grown up and matured or not - it IS about if Matt has.

[rjo]

Wow!! Kitt you are wonderful!! This whole problem is not about Will at all. It is about Matt and his disregard of other people's feelings. Will's but much more importantly WADE's. You remember WADE , Matt's partner, lover, that person. You have never addressed that. I believe Wade is at the end of his rope with Matt. It is time, no passed time for Matt to grow up. If he doesn't he will lose Wade and everything else. It has happened before.

Edited January 13, 2014 by rjo

[B1ue]

        He's 37. The countdown to forty is officially on. I would have had a big ol' blast. They say a person's early 40's are the best..

 

I have never heard anyone say that in any context. I am certainly not looking forward to doing my full routine without paying for it for the rest of the day. I'm not even as physically capable now as I want to be, and I'm not quite thirty. When I went to London this last summer, I wound up limping by the second day, and forced to use handicapped conveniences by the fourth. I couldn't walk up and down stairs without it hurting, and all I did was walk during that trip. And it's all downhill from here.

 

Note, I could give a damn about *looking* older. It's feeling older that I object to.

 

If your point is that there is no right or wrong in the world of relative morality - then why do you keep shredding Will for being wrong?  You decided at some point that you dislike the fact Will was emancipated and use that to to say he should be acting like an adult, yet fail to hold Matt - an adult - to the same standard?

 

You say that acting on your impulses without considering the impact on others makes one an ill-mannered inconsiderate lout. What does that make a 21 year old ( read supposed adult) who HAS considered the fall out - not just as it affects Will but Wade as well - and goes out and does it anyway?   I can think of a lot of words for that - but I think your word when we were discussing that exec from Connecticut fits best -  douche bag

 

. IMHO this is NOT about if Will and Tony are involved. It IS about two supposed brothers - something Will seemed to feel existed but Matt seems to feel doesn't - respecting each others feelings. It is NOT about if Will has grown up and matured or not - it IS about if Matt has.

 

No, Will being emancipated has nothing to do with Tim's, or mine, objections to his behavior. It's that he's expected to be treated as an adult, but doesn't acknowledge his own obligations.

 

It's about Will demanding a standard of behavior from others that he cannot live up to himself.

 

It's about Will deciding that he's the most important member of the family, that he can decide who exactly is family, and other members of the family supporting him in those decisions.

 

Those are the problems I have with the way Will has been characterized.

 

I am also seeing a lot of absolutes being thrown around about how "family" and, specifically, "brothers" always act towards one another, and I am curious if the people doing so actually have siblings. For my siblings, just because I love them doesn't mean I trust them, particularly with other attractive people I like. This is because, at a fundamental level, I don't actually believe I own the people I am attracted to, the way Will seems to feel he should own Tony's sex life even after they're no longer together.

 

Edit: The more I think about it, the more this is crystalizing as the actual problem I had with the last chapter. I really, truly, dislike Will's reaction, and I wonder if torching the GMC wouldn't have been kinder. To quote Robert Frost, family by my definition is, "when you have to go there, they have to take you in." Liking them, approving them, or trusting them is not required, ties of obligations that theoretically go both ways are. Accepting them as family, despite their faults and failures, is part of what makes people family.

 

And the real bitch of it is that I'm certain Matt would have taken Will in, had Will found himself in need. He'd have bitched, whined, and certainly have called JP and Brad, but he'd have done it. I don't think Will is willing to do the same.

Edited January 13, 2014 by B1ue

[PrivateTim]

If your point is that there is no right or wrong in the world of relative morality - then why do you keep shredding Will for being wrong?  You decided at some point that you dislike the fact Will was emancipated and use that to to say he should be acting like an adult, yet fail to hold Matt - an adult - to the same standard?

 

You say that acting on your impulses without considering the impact on others makes one an ill-mannered inconsiderate lout. What does that make a 21 year old ( read supposed adult) who HAS considered the fall out - not just as it affects Will but Wade as well - and goes out and does it anyway?   I can think of a lot of words for that - but I think your word when we were discussing that exec from Connecticut fits best -  douche bag

 

. IMHO this is NOT about if Will and Tony are involved. It IS about two supposed brothers - something Will seemed to feel existed but Matt seems to feel doesn't - respecting each others feelings. It is NOT about if Will has grown up and matured or not - it IS about if Matt has.

 

I am not sure how you keep, consistently missing this.

 

I DO very much believe in moral standards and codes, it is Will who only believes in them when they are convenient for him.

 

I think Matt is wrong for sleeping around when he is in a relationship, either get in a relationship and commit to your partner or don't be in a relationship. If I was wade I would have dumped him long ago. I think Will is wrong for laying out rules for others that he doesn't want to obey himself. I think it is morally wrong to have sex with the guest of a guest, I think it is wrong to let your sex life interfere with someone else's space as Will did in Norway, I think it is wrong interfere with a parent - child relationship when the child is not in any danger, I think it is wrong to sleep with someone when you know they are in a committed relationship.

 

There are many other moral foibles in the CAP series, but none of that is the point.

 

The point is that if you want and expect "common decency" then you have to give it as well. You have to adhere to some norm of what that common decency is. The Golden Rule of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a pretty simple, religion neutral moral code to live by. I could go through Will, Matt, Tony and any number of people here and apply that standard and show how much less pain and suffering there would have been had they and others lived up to that one moral code.

[rjo]

As I said in my previous post, This situation has nothing or very little about Will, Will being or not being Matt's brother, or who is more important in the family. Through the last number of books Will's major concern is to be his own person. Unlike Brad who wants to control everything and everybody's life. What both you and Tim have forgot or wanted to overlook is Wade. At the end of the last book Matt promise his love to Wade in public at dinner. Matt's problem is that he want a relationship and to play around at the some time. It is like wanting his cake and eating it too. Will asked Matt not to sleep with Tony. Again one person on a campus of thousands. Will has a previous history with Tony going back over a year. Even if Will and Matt weren't part of the same family, if they were just friends it seems not a lot to ask. Who broken the promise? Who broke the relationship? Not Will or Wade. Matt, who is 21 years old. Not 15 going on 16 like Will. If you feel Will needs to grow up, you must also see that Matt does too, before it is too late. Will is a work in progress, learning trying to do better. Matt however seems to be stuck in high school. Will has taken on the tasks of taking care of his father and Maddy, while dealing with his own grief. Will has works at the mission, and done a number of selfless acts. Kai's parent for example. What has Matt done? He seems to only think about Matt, a forget about Wade and all the rest of them. Matt is reminding more and more of Jeff Hayes. And we all remember how that ended.

Edited January 14, 2014 by rjo

[Sammy Blue]

@B1ue: In fact, I do not only have 3 siblings, but also a brother who, just like me, is bi (he is leaning female though), and has a similar taste in man as I have, who attends the same gay youth group that I attend and who has the some of the same friends that I have. So actually, this situation is not all that unreal to me.

 

@PrivateTim: I had the impression that you were justifying Matt's actions, which apparently you did not. I must've gotten that wrong.

However, I think even if Will did exactly the same to someone else in the family, which I don't see he did, then I would still judge Matt and Will differently. Will makes mistakes, yes, but I do have the impression that he tries to learn and to improve as a person in generell. Even if he does something like with Zach's car, you have to leave him that he did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. Matt, right now, seems only malicious, careless and he does not even try to apologize or change. That is at least the impression I have. I think that is also the reason why people cut Will a lot of slack, but condemn Matt.

 

I'm not sure if age, in numbers, is a real excuse here. I don't know if I excused Will with that before, but I'm thinking about it now... Will wants to be treated like an adult, like Matt and Wade and all the other young adults are treated, so thinking about it, he should at least try to act like one, too. If he does not he will lose that respect at some point. (simply by the way he acts).

 

Currently I don't see much problems there, though. We argued a lot about the other things and it's probably an agree to disagree thing there, but the thing with Ethans friend? I never saw a problem there (other than with other things where I see the controversy, more or less). If you hadn't pointed it out, I wouldn't have thought of it. I don't see why it really is a problem. So it is wrong that if a guest to the CAP family brings a guest of his to the house (more or less, technically both are Wade's guests) and someone fucks them, that's wrong? Half the family should be guilty of that, no? I mean, there was no relationship or anything, it didn't interfere with the time Ethan and his friend had. Ethan didn't even know about it, did he?

 

I don't remember it all that well, to be honest, but probably that is because I skimmed it as "just another sex scene with a random no name". I mean, explain it to me. I simply don't see any harm there.^^

Edited January 13, 2014 by Sammy Blue

[Mark Arbour]

Too funny.  And true!

 

So it is wrong that if a guest to the CAP family brings a guest of his to the house (more or less, technically both are Wade's guests) and someone fucks them, that's wrong? Half the family should be guilty of that, no?

 

 

Edited January 13, 2014 by Mark Arbour

[B1ue]

As I said in my previous post, This situation has nothing or very little about Will, Will being or not being Matt's brother, or who is more important in the family. Through the last number of books Will's major concern is to be his own person. Unlike Brad who wants to control everything and everybody's life. What both you and Tim have forgot or wanted to overlook is Wade. At the end of the last book Matt promise his love to Wade in public at dinner. Matt's problem is that he want a relationship and to play around at the some time. It is like wanting you cake and eating it too. Will asked Matt not to sleep with Tony. Again person in a campus of thousands. Will has a previous history with Tony going back over a year. Even if Will and Matt weren't part of the same family, if they were just friends it seems not a lot to ask. Who broken the promise? Who broke the relationship? Not Will or Wade. Matt, who is 21 years old. Not 15 going on 16 like Will. If you feel Will needs to grow up, you must also see that Matt does too, before it is too late. Will is a work in progress, learning trying to do better. Matt however seems to be stuck in high school. Will has taken on the tasks of taking care of his father and Maddy, while dealing with his own grief. Will has works at the mission, and done a number of selfless acts. Kai's parent for example. What has Matt done? He seems to only think about Matt, a forget about Wade and all the raise of them. Matt is reminding more and more of Jeff Hayes. And we all remember how that ended.

This is the problem. The narrative treats Will and Matt as if they were equals, and often as if they were exactly the same age. I am actually playing by Mark's rules here by attempting to hold both of them to the same standard, and that standard is "don't demand what you can't give."

 

Also, I'm not sure how Matt and Wade's current relationship issues factor into my disagreement with Will's characterizations, except in how they highlight were talking about two totally different issues. Are you saying that Matt did wrong by cheating on Wade? By breaking a promise to Will? Both? Are these separate issues? Because I see them as such. And how Matt actually cheated on Wade when they have a more or less open relationship and Matt has specific permission to sleep with other guys, except when Wade, not Will, tells him he has a problem with it. I actually disagree with Tim on his point about being in a relationship or sleeping around being an either/or thing; if both parties can make it work, I don't really see how it's my business. Is it because Matt stopped coming home to Wade every night? Because that seemed to start when Wade began judging Matt for pretty much being Matt. Their relationship seemed to be imploding just fine on its own well before Tony got dragged in.

 

@B1ue: In fact, I do not only have 3 siblings, but also a brother who, just like me, is bi (he is leaning female though), and has a similar taste in man as I have, who attends the same gay youth group that I attend and who has the some of the same friends that I have. So actually, this situation is not all that unreal to me.

Since you raised this point, I was quite specifically not talking about you, since as far as this discussion went, you didn't state categorically, "a sibling would never do that."

 

Also, your point about the sexual poaching of other people's guests being a family tradition is quite correct. That's part of what's so bewildering about it being a big deal in this instance. Was there this much drama about JP's mother sleeping with basically everyone? Or JP doing the same?

Edited January 13, 2014 by B1ue

[rjo]

If we go that far back, JP and Marie the arguing will never stop. Now Stef had a lot of loves at time but JP just Peter, Andre and Jeff before moving to Chicago. What has always pulled me into this story is how it is always changing. Back in Claremont JP never would have thought he would have children, a wife of almost forty years and now grandchildren and maybe some day great grandchildren. In 1962 that was not possible. But piece by piece it happen and we are glad it did. For what would have happened to ACE, or Brad or Isidore? What is great is that those beloved characters have grown just like the rest of us, it is the reason they are so real to us, and the reason we argue. Because we care.

Edited January 14, 2014 by rjo

[Mark Arbour]

Also, I'm not sure how Matt and Wade's current relationship issues factor into my disagreement with Will's characterizations, except in how they highlight were talking about two totally different issues. Are you saying that Matt did wrong by cheating on Wade? By breaking a promise to Will? Both? Are these separate issues? Because I see them as such. And how Matt actually cheated on Wade when they have a more or less open relationship and Matt has specific permission to sleep with other guys, except when Wade, not Will, tells him he has a problem with it. I actually disagree with Tim on his point about being in a relationship or sleeping around being an either/or thing; if both parties can make it work, I don't really see how it's my business. Is it because Matt stopped coming home to Wade every night? Because that seemed to start when Wade began judging Matt for pretty much being Matt. Their relationship seemed to be imploding just fine on its own well before Tony got dragged in.

 

 

You raise an interesting issue/question: why is Wade mad at Matt? 

 

There are a number of reasons.  The first is, as Wade noted, Matt has ignored him.  From Wade's perspective, Matt is out slutting it up on campus (which is "allowed" as part of their relationship), but he's also ignoring Wade.  And you can imagine how much that pisses Wade off; to not only be ignored, but then to have to complain about it and sound pathetic.  The second is that Wade's looking around at his world, and he's had to take on the mantle of responsibility for his whole family.  That, combined with his graduation in June of 2002, is pushing him into real life adulthood.  In his mind, he's already out of college.  Meanwhile, he looks at his partner and he sees a frat boy that won't grow up.  And finally, the deal with Will would really bug Wade because it's an issue of honor.  Think about how hard he fought to defend Beau from his father, and what he was willing to endure to keep his brother safe.  That kind of bond is sacrosanct to Wade.  In this situation, Matt is messing around with a guy Will was into, and whom Will had asked Matt not to sleep with, and that was a no-brainer for Wade.  Will was like a brother to Wade, and was technically Matt's brother as well.  It was a betrayal, in Wade's mind, on multiple levels. 

 

So you're right about their relationship imploding before Tony came along, but it was a crucial nail in the coffin.

[Sammy Blue]

I would like to add one (more specific) thing to what Mark annumerated there:

Wade is also a father. While the whole arrangement is not the typical one and he certainly doesn't have as much of a burden with his son as a regular guy his age would have, he does have him. He sees Riley growing up, he is his father and he feels as such. I think he wants to provide him with a good future, with two loving dads. Matt does not fit into that equation, though. Even if Matt does not have the responsibility to Riley like it would be in other cases, even if he might not even have much with him to do, it must pain Wade. It must hurt him that he wanted to create a baby, a new life, together with Matt and now that there is this new life, Matt is busy partying and fucking around.

 

I don't remember the original arrangements, but Jeany and Tiffany have broken up long ago and Jeanine is dead. That leaves Riley with Tiffany and Wade. I don't remember Matt's general attitude towards Riley during 9.11, at least not right now. Is it because I simply forgot it or is it because there is nothing?

 

I just realized that when I read your post and thinking about it, I feel really sorry for Wade. I don't remember much that showed the connection between Wade and his son, which I either must have missed or if i didn't I think it's missing in the story. However, I can well imagine that this is another thing on Wade's mind, even if only in the background.

 

Love

Sammy

Edited January 14, 2014 by Sammy Blue

[methodwriter85]

 

Back in Claremont JP never would have thought he would have children, a wife of almost forty years and now grandchildren and maybe some day great grandchildren.

 

    It's not a technical one, but I bet anything JP sees Riley as his great-grandchild because he's basically adopted Wade as a grandson. It's why I'm counting Riley as the start of the next CAP generation. (Well, that and because Matt was supposed to be a father to Riley, but we haven't really seen that.)

 

     I think it's funny that the story is representing the polar two sides of senior year- the senior who is already done, already moved on, and just marking the days until graduation, and the senior who is desperately clinging on and doesn't want to let go. It's funny- my good friend in college was the former- Steve was so done with college and so ready to move on with his life that he didn't even bother showing up to graduation. It was like prying teeth to try and get him to go to a college party senior year. I was more like the latter, trying to make the most out of senior year and trying really hard to enjoy it, but I don't think I was as attached as Matt seems to be. I did a 5th year of college, and while it was "senior year"...really, my senior year was 2009, and I didn't feel all that attached to the class of 2010. The bulk of the people that I had partied with when I was a sophomore/1st year junior had already moved on, particularly the Skid Row Crew.

 

    I remember being at a bar graduation weekend, watching this one bro-type crying for like 10 minutes straight after the last set with his buddies. It totally baffled me, but then again, like I said, I was a 5th year and ready to be done. I did cry the night before my graduation from grad school, though. That was a toughie.

 

    I would be serious money that Blue fell in the "Wade" category when it came to his senior year. Which, from what I understand, was truncated.

Edited January 14, 2014 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Um, sort of. I was glad to be done with classes, never cared about the party scene, but I wasn't yet ready to let my relatives take control of my life, which is what moving to Los Angeles would have meant. So I split the difference, hung out in Ventura for a year gaining job experience and popping back to Santa Barbara on the weekends to see this guy I was dating at the time, who didn't graduate until that spring. It all worked out, but I was spinning my wheels for a while, since I didn't have a firm track on what I wanted to do (asthma sidelining me from my actual aspirations). So it wasn't so much that I really liked college life, it was I knew I didn't like being managed by my elder females, but couldn't come up with an alternate plan.

 

I am mostly satisfied with the latest chapter. Not totally, only JP telling Will that Tony is family too despite how pissed off they all are, would do that. But I'll give partial satisfaction for the diffusion over Matt. I also liked how JP highlighted the different ways Matt and Will viewed the current kerfuffle.

 

 

So for Matt, Will’s demand that he not sleep with Tony must have almost been a challenge, while to Will, he was merely defining the boundaries of their relationship

 

I liked this distinction being made, and hope someone points this out to both characters. Although, probably not soon.

 

I also liked that JP didn't really get into the morality of sleeping with someone else's partner, let alone ex-partner (glass houses and stones might have to be brought up if he did), but focused more on the aftereffects as they related to the family. It's the course I would have taken, and also how I would expect his character to view it. As I said, I do think what Matt did was stupid, and it was personally satisfying to me that JP pointed out that, no matter the right or wrong of his actions, Matt was acting like an idiot.

[Daddydavek]

The most revealing part of Chapter 66 was the transformed Brad challenging Frank.   And then Frank's own transformation calling out Matt in a way no one else could and telling him to grow up, resign from the team, and get on with being an adult.  

 

For me that was a truly unexpected development.  

 

However, I am waiting for another shoe to drop so to speak and wonder just how much and how far Matt will actually take Frank's instructions to heart.

[PrivateTim]

 

Will didn’t say anything for a minute, while he finished chewing his food and presumably collected his thoughts.  “You don’t like me, and I don’t like you.  To me, the only reason you’re here is because you’re Wade’s boyfriend, until you manage to screw that up too.  So as long as you stay out of my way, we’ll be just fine.  But you do this again, you sleep with a guy I’m into, and it’s going to be ugly.  Are we clear?”  His tone had been cold, even, and unrelenting.

 

So wait...... Will, who is supposed to care so much about family, prefers Wade, who isn't related to him, to Matt, who supposedly is?

 

And Will has had no problems lobbing hand grenades into his Hayes family (Wally & Clara and Gathan, who saved his father's life) all because he likes getting banged by Zach, who also created rifts in the family by messing with John and causing problems with Claire and Brad?

 

Why can't Will have simply said, "thank you for the apology, but I am going to need time to process it still." That is what a wise beyond his years person would have said while Wally & Clara await THEIR apology from Will.

[Northern Dutch Guy]

I really liked the 66th chapter

Maybe Mark could be a good soccer coach... (or a coach for any other sports) ...

For in my opinion, the talks from JP vs Matt and the talks during dinner looked to me like the talks a coach has in the half time break with a non functional team.
Pointing out what were the weak points but also clarifies/enlightens them what could be the winning moves for the second half....

I think Mark created in this story again a spirit in this family that will make them move forward like a team ... hmm... maybe ... a bit ... more... as a functional family...
instead of ... we are living together , but individually we are all so lonely...

 

Again... after this chapter all options are open again. For the good... or the worse...

[Sammy Blue]

So wait...... Will, who is supposed to care so much about family, prefers Wade, who isn't related to him, to Matt, who supposedly is?

 

And Will has had no problems lobbing hand grenades into his Hayes family (Wally & Clara and Gathan, who saved his father's life) all because he likes getting banged by Zach, who also created rifts in the family by messing with John and causing problems with Claire and Brad?

 

Why can't Will have simply said, "thank you for the apology, but I am going to need time to process it still." That is what a wise beyond his years person would have said while Wally & Clara await THEIR apology from Will.

 

I agree with you, I had hoped that Will would be more mature. I thought he could handle it better, but he proved me wrong. He sounded pretty definite. The only reason to be that direct here is for Matt to wake up. Maybe it was even good he reacted that way. But I really doubt that he had that in mind when he told Matt to, technically, go fuck himself.

 

I didn't expect Will to be as passive as you suggested, but what he did was just one step from the feared explosion. It was pretty much "I will not blow up just this once because someone else asked me to."

 

I have to disagree on something, though. While family is important to Will, I don't remember him ever seeing family as a blood thing. It would be kind of stupid, considering that he is barely related to anyone in blood himself. Wade was the big brother to Will that Matt failed to be. Matt was never all that friendly to Will, he was not understanding in times where Will needed it and so on. Wade was always there for him and always in his corner. He was understanding and when Will was wrong he wasn't snarky but explained things calmly. It makes a lot of sense to me and I believe that pretty much everyone would see it the same way. Will trusts Wade almost (or exactly) as much as he trusts JP. I would see the whole lawyer thing during emancipation as one of many examples for that.

 

Wade is as much part of the family as Matt is, probably even more so. He is certainly closer to most family members.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Sammy Blue

[PrivateTim]

You can pick your nose. You can't pick your family.