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  • 3 weeks later...
Separate the quoted material from the dialogue tag by commas.

 

“I think you’re wrong,” Dan said.

 

Sooo, with all the excellent GA resources available why do GA writers do this?

“Go easy on him, it’s his first day.” Jason said.

 

 

 

.

Edited by Zombie
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Well, not everyone takes the initiative to research writing mechanics, and they simply don't know they are doing it wrong unless someone tells them. Face it, we overlook most punctuation as readers if we are not trained to see it, and I am sure I'm not alone in the length of time since basic writing 101 (My children both began these lessons in first grade actually, a great reminder for me). Sometimes it is a typo, though that is usually obvious by the correctly punctuated sections being more prevalent, or sometimes people just have a hard time learning and remembering the rules. In the case of the latter I am likely to message the author if I believe they care to learn the right way to do things, and in the former I typically ignore the mistakes or quit reading. 

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  • 6 months later...
  • 3 months later...
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Another contrast in interrupted/split dialogue that confuses a lot of people. The first question you must ask is... where does the interruption belong? With the dialogue line, or with the narration? The simple way to know the difference is whether or not you use a speech tag/attribution or if the interruption is simple a narration line showing an action or thought on the part of the character. And yes, you really don't use any punctuation inside the dialogue when the interruption belongs to the narration.

 

 

Examples:

“I am not”—he pointed at the ride—“getting on that.” (Belongs to the narration because we're seeing an 'action'.)

 

“I am not,” he said with a white face, “getting on that.” (Belongs to the dialogue, because it has a speech tag.)

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And my brother the typesetter/graphic artist insists on an en-space prior to an em-dash. He's drilled that enough in me over the years — much to my consternation — that I ultimately conceded to his expertise. 

 

I agree to a point with your examples, except that both are clumsy phrases. I'd throw them both out and rewrite them for clarity.

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  • 2 weeks later...

And my brother the typesetter/graphic artist insists on an en-space prior to an em-dash. He's drilled that enough in me over the years — much to my consternation — that I ultimately conceded to his expertise. 

 

I agree to a point with your examples, except that both are clumsy phrases. I'd throw them both out and rewrite them for clarity.

 

While the space around the em-dash might be more aesthetically pleasing (I'm used to there not being one, so I don't really think so), I don't know of any style-guide that uses it. I personally think that no space is more attractive, and as far as use within dialogue goes, it signifies the urgency with which such interruptions tend to happen much more acutely. Just my opinion, of course.

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You're so educated on this stuff  :) Warms my heart.

 

I've actually realized lately how badly my background in nonfiction has prepared me for some of this stuff, especially dialogue. I'm going back to the guides on a ton of stuff.

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While the space around the em-dash might be more aesthetically pleasing (I'm used to there not being one, so I don't really think so), I don't know of any style-guide that uses it. I personally think that no space is more attractive, and as far as use within dialogue goes, it signifies the urgency with which such interruptions tend to happen much more acutely. Just my opinion, of course.

 

The AP Style Guide does suggest a space before and after em-dashes, but you could make an argument that this is so that it looks good in the newspaper. But I think it also looks better for online reading, which I suspect is where most of our vast audience is these days.

 

I like this explanation:

 

In The Elements of Typographic Style – which is the unofficial bible of the modern typographer  –  Robert Bringhurst recommends that dashes in text should be the en dash flanked by two spaces. This is much less visually disruptive than using the em dash with no space—which is recommended in editorial style books such as The Chicago Manual of Style —  because there is less tension between the dash and the characters on either side of it.
 
Why go against The Chicago Manual of Style in this case? The reason is that style manuals are concerned mostly with punctuation, not typography. An en dash surrounded by spaces achieves the same effect as an em dash with no spaces, but typographically it is less disruptive. This was a big debate between my editor and me when I was writing my book.
 
The practice of using two hyphens for a dash is a holdover from the days of typewriters. Besides being visually disruptive to smooth blocks of text, it is now unnecessary with the richer character sets that are available to typographers. The en dash is also used to indicate ranges of numbers (such as “7–10 days”), although it isn’t flanked by spaces in this case.

 

http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/08/15/mind-your-en-and-em-dashes-typographic-etiquette/

 

 

There are interesting twists these days on graphics and typesetting with the problem of print, eBooks, websites, and other eBook readers. I do think about typefaces and what might be more appropriate for one kind of story than another; I'd be reluctant to go with a modern sans-serif font for a historical story, for example. 

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The AP Style Guide does suggest a space before and after em-dashes, but you could make an argument that this is so that it looks good in the newspaper. But I think it also looks better for online reading, which I suspect is where most of our vast audience is these days.

 

I like this explanation:

 

In The Elements of Typographic Style – which is the unofficial bible of the modern typographer  –  Robert Bringhurst recommends that dashes in text should be the en dash flanked by two spaces. This is much less visually disruptive than using the em dash with no space—which is recommended in editorial style books such as The Chicago Manual of Style —  because there is less tension between the dash and the characters on either side of it.
 
Why go against The Chicago Manual of Style in this case? The reason is that style manuals are concerned mostly with punctuation, not typography. An en dash surrounded by spaces achieves the same effect as an em dash with no spaces, but typographically it is less disruptive. This was a big debate between my editor and me when I was writing my book.
 
The practice of using two hyphens for a dash is a holdover from the days of typewriters. Besides being visually disruptive to smooth blocks of text, it is now unnecessary with the richer character sets that are available to typographers. The en dash is also used to indicate ranges of numbers (such as “7–10 days”), although it isn’t flanked by spaces in this case.

 

http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/08/15/mind-your-en-and-em-dashes-typographic-etiquette/

 

 

There are interesting twists these days on graphics and typesetting with the problem of print, eBooks, websites, and other eBook readers. I do think about typefaces and what might be more appropriate for one kind of story than another; I'd be reluctant to go with a modern sans-serif font for a historical story, for example. 

 

I guess I just think that the point of the em-dash in fiction is to be disruptive. In dialogue it signifies interruption, sudden cut-offs. In narrative it offers tension, urgency. When the em-dash is used in place of parentheses, it tells you to listen up, this bit is meant to stand out. What is seen as disruptive in a typographical setting can be appropriate in a narrative. 

 

I use the 'long' ellipses for the same reason. The ones my word-processor auto-formats aren't wide enough for me, so I do the CMS thing of putting a space between each dot, as such: . . . I do this because ellipses in a narrative and in dialogue signifies uncertainty or hesitation, and this is shown much more clearly with a longer ellipsis. Perhaps the auto-formated ellipses are more typographically attractive, but I prefer the spaced ones in my narrative. It just looks right.

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I use the 'long' ellipses for the same reason. The ones my word-processor auto-formats aren't wide enough for me, so I do the CMS thing of putting a space between each dot, as such: . . . I do this because ellipses in a narrative and in dialogue signifies uncertainty or hesitation, and this is shown much more clearly with a longer ellipsis. Perhaps the auto-formated ellipses are more typographically attractive, but I prefer the spaced ones in my narrative. It just looks right.

 

I prefer the look of spaces between ellipses, I think it's far more attractive typographically. The problem you run into is if they hit the end of a line in an auto-wrap. Text editors will treat each one as a period and break your sentence accordingly. And that sucks to look at. :(

 

Even if I use typographical ellipses, I insist on placing a space after. Otherwise, it just looks crowded.

Edited by Mann Ramblings
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Great discussion, guys! There are many formats and styles out there. I tend to follow CMoS for most stylistic and punctuation methods, as the publisher I prefer uses their guidelines for editing. Having a reason for your style, as well as a reputable source for back-up, is far better than not knowing the rules or simply ignoring them.

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A very interesting discussion as well.

 

When reading about writing techniques and grammar rules, there is so much about show don't tell, not starting sentences with conjunctions, homonyms, capitonyms etc., that the humble ellipsis and em-dash seem to get lost.  I think this is part of the reason that many authors don't always know how to treat them.

 

 

I prefer the look of spaces between ellipses, I think it's far more attractive typographically. The problem you run into is if they hit the end of a line in an auto-wrap. Text editors will treat each one as a period and break your sentence accordingly.

 

If you enter non-breaking spaces (CTRL + SHIFT + SPACE) before the first dot of the ellipsis, and then between each dot in the ellipsis, text editors will "wrap" the word prior to the ellipsis, and the entire ellipsis, onto the next line.

 

Or you can just enter non-breaking spaces between each dot in the ellipsis, then you will "wrap" the entire ellipsis onto the next line.

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  • 3 months later...

Is there a rule for stretched direct speech? Stuff like "soooooo..." or "reeeeeally?" I mean. Personally I don't like the look of it, so I was wondering how you guys stretch stuff both in direct speech and outside.

Also interesting: When/Do you use all capital letters for pronounciation? If not, how do you show yelling or place emphasis on a word? When and how do you use italics, bolt, underlined, what meanings do you associate with it?

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Is there a rule for stretched direct speech? Stuff like "soooooo..." or "reeeeeally?" I mean. Personally I don't like the look of it, so I was wondering how you guys stretch stuff both in direct speech and outside.

Also interesting: When/Do you use all capital letters for pronounciation? If not, how do you show yelling or place emphasis on a word? When and how do you use italics, bolt, underlined, what meanings do you associate with it?

 

 

Personally, I prefer not to stretch words, and rather put a description of it into the dialogue tag if I find it absolutely necessary. Otherwise I let my readers decide how the word is being said for themselves. 

 

'So . . .' he said, extending the 'o' until he ran out of breath. 'Should we . . . ?'

 

or

 

'So . . .' He hesitated. 'Should we . . . ?'

 

In the first example I describe the way he's speaking. In the second you get to read it the way you want, but given how people usually speak a lot of people would probably read it with a long 'o' regardless.

 

I have on occasion used all caps to show yelling, but usually I just use 'yelled' or 'shouted' for the speech tag if I find it necessary to specify. Depending on the situation, sometimes just adding an exclamation point at the end is enough, if the context makes it natural to assume that the character is shouting. 

 

'What do you think you're doing?' he shouted over the waterfall. 'You could get yourself killed!'

 

or

 

'What do you think you're doing?!' The waterfall nearly drowned out his voice. 'You could get yourself killed!'

 

or 

 

'WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING?' The waterfall nearly drowned out his voice. 'YOU COULD GET YOURSELF KILLED!'

 

In the first example, I use a speech tag with the word 'shouted' in it, thereby telling you that he's shouting. In the second, the exclamation point implies that he's shouting or speaking urgently, while the action tag tells us there's a loud waterfall, so you can assume from context that he would be shouting. In the third example I've capitalised the speech, and also use the same action tag.

 

I rarely use bold or underlined writing in my narratives. I use italics to signify indirect speech, such as thoughts or text messages, and for the content of notes, letters or e-mails. I also use it for titles and song lyrics. I think using limited special formatting makes everything look cleaner, typographically speaking, and I find that as long as I specify my readers don't get confused.

 

It's always on a monday, she thought.
He picked up his mobile and wrote, Thanks for talking to me today.

He opened the envelope and read the letter:

 

Dear sir or madam,

 

Allow me to [. . .]

 

 

The note was written in cursive handwriting and read:

 

Come see me tomorrow night.

 

 

Skipping down the corridor she sang, 'I'm walking on sunshine! Whoa!'

 

 

The book was titled There is No Such Thing as a Fish

 

 

And so on and so forth.

 

That's just how I like to do it, though. There are no formalised rules for a lot of these things, and individual authors often have their own style, as well as some publishers having in-house style guides.

Edited by Thorn Wilde
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Thorn's right on extending. You can often use the ellipse. People naturally stretch out a word when they see that, especially after a vowel or an interjection. I don't typically use italics for thoughts, as my characters tend to speak more than think, so often I do use italics for emphasis on words to indicate emotion. Try reading the example lines out loud, and maybe chapters/stories you read where you see different examples, and it'll help you see how you 'read' the styles better, and how it might work for you to write as well. Then just make it consistent, so you don't confuse your readers.

 

"Please, don't. I can't. Um... no."

 

"Are you kidding me?"

 

"Don't say that. You don't get to say that."

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I forgot about italics for emphasis. I use it for that too.  :rolleyes:

 

In my experience, readers are mostly clever people. They get a lot from context, so it's not necessary to baby them by overdoing your descriptions or using a tonne of special formatting. Remember, you're writing a book/short story, not a movie script.

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There are no formalised rules for a lot of these things, and individual authors often have their own style, as well as some publishers having in-house style guides.

 

As a reader I like writers to have their own style. The writer's "voice" is important along with the narrative, dialogue, storyline and characters. Not much is said about this perhaps because, unlike the technicalities of writing, I don't think it can be taught - it has to come from within. Just my twopenn'orth :)

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I just saw this thread.  This is very useful and I think many people will find it useful.  My English teachers all follow MLA style (yet another American standard), and in almost all cases, agree with Cia's Chicago Manual Style.  The only exceptions are ellipsis (no space in between), and for the pause that has a comma follows it, I would use ..., but not ,....  And yes, there is the fourth dot because that denotes the end of the sentence (i.e., period).  Basically, a comma or a period follows the ellipsis.

 

Everything else is as Cia mentioned, including when the exclamation point and the question mark should go outside or inside the quotation.   A period almost always goes inside the quotation mark.  There is only one exception where comma would go outside the quotation mark, and that is when the quotation isn't really a dialogue, but used more like an emphasis.  With computerized word processing, we would use italic instead should such occasion arise (though I still use quotation marks in such cases, for convenience).

 

I've been using ellipsis for the sentence that's been broken into two.  Perhaps I should be using a dash (or a pair of dashes, in the case the passage is resumed later on) instead.

 

I've never encountered a situation where the speaker would do multiple paragraphs in one speech though.  In such case, I break them with some sort of action (e.g., He said, or he looked around then continued).  If the speaker is quoting a prose, or recalling a passage from a dream/flashback, I would just do hanging indentation (sometimes called flush indent) for the entire passage and italicize the entire passage (and cancel the italicized where you would normally italicize the word).

 

I don't see sooooo and so... as equivalent (or reeeeeeealy? and really...? for that matter).  I read the first word with very exaggerated long sound.  The second case is just a regular short sounding so but with hesitation after the word was spoken.  They may or may not mean the same thing.  I would use both to divert a conversation, but with the first prolonged enunciation, you can tell the speaker is being playful, whereas the latter, the speaker could be serious.  Lots of older guys back in the early explosion of online communication thought I was being annoying when I intentionally misspelled words.  I told them we need to effectively use visual cues online to represent the missing non-verbal cues of face-to-face conversations to avoid misunderstanding.  Emoticons/smileys are limited, so words like really...? will be the substitute of skepticism; whereas reeeeelly? is a pleasant surprise (and if the person is really excited, reeeeeally!?!  and skeptical is really?!?, notice there are more question marks than the exclamation point in the latter).  Intentionally misspelled words also denote mischievousness of the character.

Edited by Ashi
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Intentionally misspelled words also denote mischievousness of the character.

 

I think that would be pretty clunky in a published story, because it just looks incompetent. I wouldn't have a problem if the novel or short story reproduced a written note from one of the characters, and the note had misspellings from the character.

 

By the same token, you have a book like The Color Purple, but it was purported to be a diary of the lead character, so that justified all kinds of misspellings and bad English... all of which became better over time, as the character became more educated. 

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In my writing, I don't tend to use extra letters or punctuation. I prefer to use my narration to indicate the mood and scene instead, and stick to traditional spelling and writing styles. I know, I'm boring about following the rules, but I feel that showing the mood of the characters via their body language is always better to draw a reader in.

 

For example if the person is really excited:

 

"Reeeeeally!?! or

 

He gasped, staring at me with wide eyes and a huge grin. "Really?

 

For example if the person is skeptical:

 

"Really?!?"  

 

I raised an eyebrow and crossed my arms over my chest. "Really?"

 

I have seen the use of "misspelled" words used in writing, even in eBooks/books, but typically it is for accent or specific speech patterns. For instance, I would write that I can see raining pouring down outside my window. But if I were to write that I said that, with my accent, it'd look like "I kin see the rain pouring down outside the winda." (yeah, yeah, I have a southern flavor to how I talk most of the time, and I say many words that come out different, even if I'm consciously suppressing the southern accent).

 

However, you risk annoying readers and putting them off if you make it too disruptive to the flow. A good example of this technique in an eBook is Mia Kerick's Beggars and Choosers. I found it incredibly hard to get into, and if I wasn't reading it for a review I would've quit before I got used to the style and learned to 'hear' it without it bothering me. Try reading the sample, because the description is regular style, vs. the actual writing that has alternating first person style between the two main characters, one of which has a strong accent in narration and dialogue. This is employed to make the character seem less intelligent on the surface, by his stronger accent and speech pattern.  

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I am thankful that Cia and them others posted the rules. I was taught that the over use of Ellipses makes the writing weak. So in other words, use them sparingly.

 

 

 

Goes for all special punctuation, really. You want your writing to flow in a way so that it's easy to read and your readers don't get distracted or tired. I only use ellipses in my narratives very rarely, and usually only if it's first person. Other than that, I just use them in dialogue. There I use them as much as I think is necessary for my readers to be able to pick up on the subtleties of my dialogue. Sometimes that's a lot. Sometimes not.

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Yeah, see, I don't get put off by punctuation when it's used properly. It doesn't bother me if many ellipses happen in close proximity or an author makes heavy use of the em dash, in narrative or in dialogue. There are instances when even improper use of punctuation (in amateur writing especially) is worth overlooking because I get what the author is trying to convey through their usage. 

 

edit: removed a couple of unnecessary words

Edited by Ron
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  • 3 weeks later...

I read through this thread a while back and have just gone through it again selectively.

All this grammatical rules are fine and dandy but if I'm writing dialogue, I don't think they should be of primordial importance.

I'd rather have the printed word evoke the rhythm of the speech than follow some rule set down by some so called authority.

This becomes even more noticeable when the 'speakers' are younger than me :P

I listen to the teenagers in my life speak and their cadence is different somehow.

Pauses are not where proper punctuation would place them and if we could see those pesky ellipses in speech they'd be all over the darn place.

If I follow Cia's suggestion of reading out loud, and I do, then the commas would be in completely different places than most editors would have you place them on.

 

Comments and suggestions are encouraged and welcome

 

C

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