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Anyway, Cia's cheat sheet was invaluable.

 

There's one situation that, as far as I can tell in my quick reread, wasn't covered. And that's when a quote from a character covers more than one paragraph. So as not to confuse the reader into thinking that a different character is speaking in the next paragraph, you don't use close-quotation-marks until the end of what the speaker has to say.

 

 

 

He got in my face. "Listen to me.

 

"You can't go out there. Alik, Teresa, and Brent all thought they could make it too, don't you get it?

 

"Nah, I guess you don't. So ahead and play the big hero in your head. And let it send you stormin' out the door to get help.

 

"But I'm tellin' you, they run out there, each one of 'em, jus' like you're thinkin' about.

 

"And they're all three dead, ain't they?"

 

"Screw you, Jackson." I slumped to the ground, staring at the dirt. He was right, but it didn't mean I wanted to look at his face.

Edited by Adam Phillips
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There's one situation that, as far as I can tell in my quick reread, wasn't covered. And that's when a quote from a character covers more than one paragraph. So as not to confuse the reader into thinking that a different character is speaking in the next paragraph, you don't use close-quotation-marks until the end of what the speaker has to say.

 

#10 actually deals with paragraph breaks mid dialogue

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There's one situation that, as far as I can tell in my quick reread, wasn't covered. And that's when a quote from a character covers more than one paragraph. So as not to confuse the reader into thinking that a different character is speaking in the next paragraph, you don't use close-quotation-marks until the end of what the speaker has to say.

 

Conan Doyle does this a lot with lengthy multi-paragraph quotes within quotes. Always strikes me as clunky and the punctuation looks a mess :/ Best avoided.

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited by Zombie
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  • 5 months later...

It's not really a punctuation issue, but something that increasingly annoys me in dialogues: Repeating the names of the participants in a dialogue.

 

"Chester, you have to let it go, it's not healthy to stress out like this," Ben pressed.

"Ben," he sighed, sounding vaguely annoyed.

"I mean it, Chester!" Ben shook his head vigorously.

"I know, Ben. It's just," he bit his bottom lip, chewing it until it was swollen with nerves, "I want him to love me too, Ben."

 

I've seen this too many times in the last few days. It's not a natural way to talk. Nobody uses a name in a dialogue that often, the other person is sitting/standing/lounging right there, and they know who they are ;) It's only necessary to use names, if there are more than two people talking and the one speaking wants to clarify with whom he/she is talking.

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A big part of choosing punctuation, especially with dialogue, is knowing how you want the speech to sound. An em dash versus ellipses when someone stops speaking creates an abrupt cut off versus someone trailing off slowly. You read a sentence completely different with an exclamation point or question mark versus a period. Knowing what to use and when is all part of how to make dialogue feel natural and create the right flow in a technical manner.

 

Your comment, metajinx, is in line with that but more of a creative aspect of the same thing. Creating a natural flow takes practice, because writing dialogue is difficult even if you know the punctuation rules. My advice is to practice, practice, practice, and you don't even have to write a word to do it. Read stories you enjoy out loud and listen to the cadence, or listen to audio books. Or people watch (without being creepy). Listen to how they speak and watch how they touch/move. It can give you really good idea of how people interact (it helps more if you also know how the people know each other when you first start doing this).

 

Using a name should in narration or dialogue is often to help readers keep track of who his speaking or part of the conversation in the scene, and it should always make sense as to when and how it's used. When working with a story that is in third person, this is a little harder to avoid repeating names if an author likes to use a lot of speech tags. Now, I'm an advocate of using those sparingly in the first place, but it's okay to use more pronouns in the speech tags if readers already know who is conversing in the scene. Work out when it's okay based on the story plot/character relationships to use epithets or nicknames/pet names that aren't as repetitive as repeatedly using their first.

 

Use or non-use of a name in dialogue can change the scenes completely, based on how it's used. Thanking a bagger at the store offhandedly as the character folds the receipt versus thanking them by name and eye contact shows very different characters and scenes. Then an author can refine it, depending on what import the scene has to the story. Does the character not take the time to find out the bagger's name because they're in a rush for some justified reason we learn later, making it less inconsiderate behavior and more rushed behavior instead? Or are they just oblivious? Do the character learn/know the bagger's name and use it because they appreciate their help from a past visit or are they just an overall very polite person?

 

Every single word in a story is used to relate the character, setting, or story in specific ways, and a big part of that are the names an author chooses and how they're used. Writing is a creative process but involves learning a lot of technical knowledge, that goes beyond grammar rules, on how to portray the story that should be considered and utilized if authors really want the story to come alive.

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It's not really a punctuation issue, but something that increasingly annoys me in dialogues: Repeating the names of the participants in a dialogue.

 

"Chester, you have to let it go, it's not healthy to stress out like this," Ben pressed.

"Ben," he sighed, sounding vaguely annoyed.

"I mean it, Chester!" Ben shook his head vigorously.

"I know, Ben. It's just," he bit his bottom lip, chewing it until it was swollen with nerves, "I want him to love me too, Ben."

 

I've seen this too many times in the last few days. It's not a natural way to talk. Nobody uses a name in a dialogue that often, the other person is sitting/standing/lounging right there, and they know who they are ;) It's only necessary to use names, if there are more than two people talking and the one speaking wants to clarify with whom he/she is talking.

I have been absolutely guilty of this at times, and it's something I have slowly realized, and am working on. I don't, however, agree with your last sentence. Regardless of speech tags (and that is another whole topic lol), reading about a conversation/dailogue is not the same as being face to face in a real life situation. The reader doesn't have the benefit of being there, so we, as writers, have to sometimes help them along. The use of names, or nicknames/petnames to avoid repetition as Cia pointed out, when strategically placed, can keep the flow as well as the clarity going smoothly so the reader never has to backtrack to figure out who's speaking. I do agree about overuse, but I also think there can be underuse. As a reader, I hate rereading a section of dialogue because I got lost. Cia made a good point about writing in the third person. I am slowly learning that it is all about balance... we want the story to flow realistically, but we don't want to make the reader have to work too hard. I also would just like to note, that in real life, some people do use people's names a lot when they are talking. I have one friend who says 'Gary' so many times when he's talking to me I want to rip his head off, and I've also noticed with my own kids when they were younger... they would pepper each sentence with 'Dad'... like every third word it seemed lol. I'm not advocating this by any means, but there may be the occasional character who would be prone to this kind of overuse, and if it was only from that character, it could work as someone's idiosyncrasy. Great post, Meta... cheers... Gary

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Good points! I hadn't thought about using names as a stylistic device, that's a whole different matter, of course. I meant it more along the lines of that incessant  "Dad! Dad! Dad!" calling. If I repeatedly read a name in direct speech, I hear it in my head and oh boy, it's annoying even there. :D Big brownie points to Headstall for still hanging out with that friend.

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  • 1 year later...

I didn't go through the entire topics, so forgive me if this has been answered before...

What about using dialogues with this style:

 

John – You really think this is the best decision?

Clark – Yes, we do.

John – This is absurd…

Robert – John, please…

 

Is this ok?

Thanksss

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11 hours ago, pauloaragao said:

I didn't go through the entire topics, so forgive me if this has been answered before...

What about using dialogues with this style:

 

John – You really think this is the best decision?

Clark – Yes, we do.

John – This is absurd…

Robert – John, please…

 

Is this ok?

Thanksss

Hey, paulo! 

I have to say, this goes against everything I've learned, and honestly, I doubt I would read something that used this style of dialogue. Maybe someone else will have a differing opinion, but I don't like it. It feels almost like cheating. Well written dialogue is challenging, but well worth the effort. The best is nuanced at times, creating and keeping a flow to the story, and interspersed with action and thought. I'm not sure how you could achieve that while using such a method. I would be reluctant to employ this for any situation.

 

There is a lot of assistance available on here, and good people willing to help. This is a true writing community of excellent authors. Mine is just one opinion. Welcome to GA , and good luck to you. Cheers... Gary.... 

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On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 11:27 AM, pauloaragao said:

I didn't go through the entire topics, so forgive me if this has been answered before...

What about using dialogues with this style:

 

John – You really think this is the best decision?

Clark – Yes, we do.

John – This is absurd…

Robert – John, please…

 

Is this ok?

Thanksss

If you're writing a screenplay... maybe. But the goal is to let your reader 'see' what is happening and it's not like every character is going to say their name and then whatever they're saying in the story. The appropriate punctuation of quotation marks are important to separate out what is actually being said versus thought or story narration that shows people what is happening by indicating motions and other happenings. And, while it may seem finicky to expect authors to use these rules when most readers won't be able to tell you a dangling participle from a gerund, most of the time, they will instinctively know when things are right versus wrong. That's especially true with basic punctuation because we naturally pace how and what we're reading with those marks. 

 

A good story can become great when it's written well... but a good story can also be tanked by an author not putting in a basic effort to write it to the best of their ability. 

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25 minutes ago, Cia said:

If you're writing a screenplay... maybe. But the goal is to let your reader 'see' what is happening and it's not like every character is going to say their name and then whatever they're saying in the story. The appropriate punctuation of quotation marks are important to separate out what is actually being said versus thought or story narration that shows people what is happening by indicating motions and other happenings. And, while it may seem finicky to expect authors to use these rules when most readers won't be able to tell you a dangling participle from a gerund, most of the time, they will instinctively know when things are right versus wrong. That's especially true with basic punctuation because we naturally pace how and what we're reading with those marks. 

 

A good story can become great when it's written well... but a good story can also be tanked by an author not putting in a basic effort to write it to the best of their ability. 

This is so true. The best way to check for those mistakes is to have an editor/beta reader who's not afraid to tell you when something's wrong or doesn't read correctly, or if you're self-editing, have your computer read the story to you so you have an idea how it will sound when someone else reads it. 

Edited by JayT
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  • 1 month later...
On 8/27/2017 at 7:10 PM, JayT said:

This is so true. The best way to check for those mistakes is to have an editor/beta reader who's not afraid to tell you when something's wrong or doesn't read correctly, or if you're self-editing, have your computer read the story to you so you have an idea how it will sound when someone else reads it. 

Thank you for your input!

For what I have learned, best way to find a editor/beta is to post on the forum saying I'm looking for one?

English is not my first language, so I need corrections, yes.

 

But in regards to the dialogue style, I really stand by it.

I know it does look like a script, but I dont feel like I'm cheating just because I'm not writing continuous sentences with many quote marks.

I do stop and write narration and about what the character is feeling, how he physically reacted and the setting and movements.

Here is an example:

 

"They were looking at each other: Robert looking coldly at John. John’s face in rage, red, his heart beating a little faster. After all, his husband just confronted him, and what’s worse, in front of someone else. He hated that! John looked back at Robert’s confrontational look and his glass was up in the air, his arm was still. Daniel was looking at John, with disgust.

 

John – You’re not going anywhere without me! Although you seem to forget, sometimes, we are married! Anywhere I go, you go! I’m not letting you go to a club and be ‘Peter Pan’ by yourself.

Robert – Whatever! Then I guess you’d have to come with us…"

 

Why is it so wrong to do it this way?

 

Thanks!!!

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That requires every piece of dialogue to be attributed, to distinguish it from narration. It also doesn't allow actions to be used as an alternative form of attribution. 

 

The following blog shows different ways an author can indicate who is speaking, without the very restrictive approach you have shown.

 

https://www.gayauthors.org/blogs/entry/16993-writing-tip-speech-tags/

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@Dmrman Many authors use the speech tag with every instance of dialogue with published works in the fantasy scifi or fantasy genres, but if you can show that character doing something, it serves two purposes to both show the reader what is happening in the scene and indicate who is speaking without needing to constantly use speech tags. I agree, that style does get very old quick to me. 

 

23 minutes ago, pauloaragao said:

Thank you for your input!

For what I have learned, best way to find a editor/beta is to post on the forum saying I'm looking for one?

English is not my first language, so I need corrections, yes.

 

But in regards to the dialogue style, I really stand by it.

I know it does look like a script, but I dont feel like I'm cheating just because I'm not writing continuous sentences with many quote marks.

I do stop and write narration and about what the character is feeling, how he physically reacted and the setting and movements.

Here is an example:

 

"They were looking at each other: Robert looking coldly at John. John’s face in rage, red, his heart beating a little faster. After all, his husband just confronted him, and what’s worse, in front of someone else. He hated that! John looked back at Robert’s confrontational look and his glass was up in the air, his arm was still. Daniel was looking at John, with disgust.

 

John – You’re not going anywhere without me! Although you seem to forget, sometimes, we are married! Anywhere I go, you go! I’m not letting you go to a club and be ‘Peter Pan’ by yourself.

Robert – Whatever! Then I guess you’d have to come with us…"

 

Why is it so wrong to do it this way?

 

Thanks!!!

As an author, I would say it's incorrect both technically, by all accepted standards for formatting text that you'll find used by any publishing house and because it intrudes on the scene and the visual your words should be giving the reader in their head as they follow the characters and the story. For me as a reader, it comes across as an author who doesn't follow the basic structure either because they don't care to learn about writing conventions which smacks of ignorance/laziness or they feel the need to tell me each and every time who is talking because they don't have the skills to do it by mixing the speech and actions naturally (which the constant speech tags some authors use that are technically correct but read as redundant comes across to me as well). 

 

When I read your example, all the actions are occurring at once and then the characters speak afterward. But that's not true to life. People move and talk and think all at the same time. But when a reader is reading a story, the things happen as they read them, so when you don't mix the different motions/thoughts/speech it comes off as unnatural. 

 

Also, keep an eye on how you share the physical cues when you're sharing information from a POV character. In this segment, John's your character who is sharing his thoughts and the person the scene is showed through, but unless he's looking in a mirror, he can't know his face is red because he can't see his own face. And using 'they were looking at each other' is author voice as well because the main character wouldn't be thinking of himself and the other person as they or we in that way. If I were to write a scene like you've shown, it would be written like this:

 



John's face was hot, his heart pounding out of control. He could not believe his husband had just confronted him, and what's worse, in front of someone else! "You're not going anywhere without me. Anywhere I go, you go. I'm not letting you go to a club and 'Peter Pan' by yourself." 

 

Robert froze, his arm outstretched with his glass held in front of him. "Whatever!" He stared coldly at John. "Then I guess you'd have to come with us...."

 

Though, it seems weird that John would tell his husband he can't go somewhere without him, but the emphasis is on where 'I go, you go' instead of the other way around like... where Robert goes (to the club) John will go to because he doesn't want his husband off by himself. If that's the case, then it should read, "Where you go, I go." 

 

And, while we're talking about punctuation, when you end a line with ellipses (...) they must have closing punctuation of either another period, an exclamation point, question mark, etc... regardless of how you format the ellipses in regards to the spacing. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Cia said:

 

Also, keep an eye on how you share the physical cues when you're sharing information from a POV character. In this segment, John's your character who is sharing his thoughts and the person the scene is showed through, but unless he's looking in a mirror, he can't know his face is red because he can't see his own face. And using 'they were looking at each other' is author voice as well because the main character wouldn't be thinking of himself and the other person as they or we in that way.

Thank you very much!

I am learning and taking notes! Thank you!

 

About the POV, the way I am writing the story is: I have 3 chapters. Each chapter shows the same story through another POV. So on that excerpt, I am the author telling the story but focusing on John's feelings. Then later I'll be the author telling the story focusing on Robert's feeling and so forth. Does that make sense?

I'm telling the story this way because I want the readers to know what's going on with each character depending on their POVs. I want the readers to have their own conclusions because at the end I will show them these characters are not who they appear to be.

 

14 minutes ago, Cia said:

Though, it seems weird that John would tell his husband he can't go somewhere without him, but the emphasis is on where 'I go, you go' instead of the other way around like... where Robert goes (to the club) John will go to because he doesn't want his husband off by himself. If that's the case, then it should read, "Where you go, I go." 

 

I was wrong. The emphasis should be on the "I" because of the way John's character is. John is controlling, manipulative and selfish. His message to his husband is: you don't choose to go somewhere by yourself. If I'm not there, you're not going. You go where I go. Anyway, it has to be with me.

 

Again, thank you for the lessons and tips!

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22 minutes ago, pauloaragao said:

About the POV, the way I am writing the story is: I have 3 chapters. Each chapter shows the same story through another POV. So on that excerpt, I am the author telling the story but focusing on John's feelings. Then later I'll be the author telling the story focusing on Robert's feeling and so forth. Does that make sense?

I'm telling the story this way because I want the readers to know what's going on with each character depending on their POVs. I want the readers to have their own conclusions because at the end I will show them these characters are not who they appear to be.

 

Honestly, no, because the author writes the story, but it should be told from the character's POV. You don't want to insert your voice in the story unless it's an actual plot element like using a narrator voice (as the author or a fictional character) to set scenes (which is often used in play formats). Otherwise, the whole concept of show, don't tell means that the story should always be told from the character's POV and that their thoughts should be the only ones shown (which then lets the reader know who the POV character is), and the reader should get to see what is happening in the story through that, plus the actions and speech of all the characters in the scene. 

 

While you may feel it's a 'style', what you're going to find is that it doesn't come across that way to a reader who will most likely view it as too awkward to enjoy because you're not letting the story unfold naturally. There's a way to adjust the rules when writing at times to explore tweaks to create your unique style, but it's not usually accepted to flout them completely because it will come across as unedited and written improperly, which will make readers who prefer high quality fiction stop reading. 

 

11 minutes ago, Dmrman said:

Thanks for Point on ellipses(...) Although not perfect, I found out I am properly Placing the right closing punctuation, using the variables described above. and the spacing, I've heard some say period, space, period method, and others have responded " the space Not needed" any how, learning Something I never knew before! Thank you:worship:

There are many different styles of ellipses and the spacing typically is what differs. You either use what works best for you as long as you're consistent, or if your goal is to be published, then the accepted style the publishing house uses. 

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15 hours ago, pauloaragao said:

Geez... It looks like I'll have to re-write 12951 words...

 

As much as it sucks to rewrite, yes, that's often what we end up doing as authors. The first time I published an eBook, the editor tore it apart. I was doing SO many things wrong, and I had to fix many different elements from my grammar and punctuation to independent body movements, head hopping, passive phrasing, etc.... Plus I had to rewrite entire scenes and add more. Check out the mess of my first story on GA, "The Price of Honor" because I've left it alone for the last 10 years so when I say my writing started out like a hot mess, I can show exactly how bad it was. 

 

The only way to get better is to ask questions, take feedback, research the "rules" and refine, refine, refine. It gets easier over time; I'm a firm believer that good storyteller can become great--if they put the work into it. 

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I use dialogue so that my characters tell the story rather than an omnipotent personage. Unfortunately, people don't talk in correct english and this always brings me in conflict with Spell Checker and the rules of punctuation.Every time I start writing a new book, I have to battle Spell Checker. As a result I edit on the fly; the spelling is not a big problem as I can store new words for further use but unfortunately punctuation rule changes can only be made relative to the current work.

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Nope. There's no "just one way" to apply writing styles. They vary based on the type of writing, the geographic location of the author or the publisher's house style, etc... The best you can do is figure out which style you want to follow (in the US that's usually either the Blue Book of Grammar or Chicago Manual of Style) and be consistent. 

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On 15/10/2017 at 11:17 AM, Dmrman said:

Touche' ... My question being is there  some sort of cheat sheet , with right wrong format, or A site to do find one ? I definately want to make sure I get it right the first Time...!

I tried the link 'here is an interesting summary' and got a message 'page not found'. Can you send me another link as I'm interested . Ta

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  • 1 year later...
On 6/5/2013 at 5:00 PM, Thorn Wilde said:

 

Thought I'd add, if you're using the British standard of single quotes, it's the other way around. So:

 

'And then he said, "Mind your own business." The nerve!' she said.

 

:)

And that's why I wasn't able to read "Lord of the Rings" when I was in High school. lol

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  • 2 years later...
On 6/5/2013 at 9:55 PM, Cia said:

I have never had my Word connect hyphens into a 'dash' which is a long hyphen, essentially. These should be added either using the insert/symbol/dash through Word's editor options, or the shortcut control, alt, minus key (from the number keys, not the hyphen/underscore)

The automatic formatting of hyphens into dashes option is on the AutoCorrect popup:

571640520_AutocorrectAutoFormat.png.7a8b09d2b1db5443fe1b41c3dc7104bc.png

 

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