Flux

[Headstall]

Thanks Methodwriter...

[mmike1969]

Okay, enough time has passed so I can post what I really think and I call this "Why I hate Matt, part Two."

 

From chapter 21:

 

“When you’re in a relationship, you’re responsible for someone, and to someone. You’re responsible for them in that you have to care about them, watch out for them, and not hurt them. And you’re responsible to them because you can’t just do what you want to do; you have to coordinate things with them. So it’s not about fucking everything that moves. It’s about freedom to do what I want.”

 

Matt, you whiney, arrogant and pompous half-adult:

 

Absolutely nothing has been shown to us readers in the last THREE stories that you were even capable of understanding the word "responsibility".

 

Freedom to do what you want? Yeah, that's what you've been doing since Bloodlines. You just ASSumed everything and everyone revolved around your life.

 

Then you get all "teen boy hitting puberty" on us when:

 

1) You slept with Tony and can't understand why everyone hates your ass.

2) Move off campus without telling your Partner Wade and can't understand why he took off your rings.

3) Jeff (Stef's assistant) can't stand your snobby attitude and doesn't want to have sex with you. Your solution was to kick his ass in the gym.

 

Yes, you did a wonderful thing and save Wade from his abusive Father in Bloodlines (my favorite story BTW) but I am reminded of the words of one of the greatest artists of all time --> "What have you done for me lately."

 

 

Have you done anything recently that helped others or even helped Wade with his son? I honestly can't think of a damn thing.

 

Can't wait for the next chapter

Edited May 19, 2014 by mmike1969

[sat8997]

+10,000

[Daddydavek]

MMike1969's may have stated it a little forcibly, but I also almost had to gag when Matt spewed that responsibility line which was crap coming from him.   In his defense, it can be claimed that he did stay pretty much inside the boundaries he agreed to with Wade up until 9.11.  After that, his judgment was crap and 9.11 was certainly a factor in that for him as well as for the rest of the crew who pretty much had trouble holding it together.....

 

It is only now, in the story that we see them starting to put some perspective on things and just maybe Matt's responsibility line was his recognition of what he needed to do and/ or become as a man.  

 

As usual, Arbour has painted us a character with flaws, passions and aspirations that each of us cannot help but be somewhat entranced by their actions.... 

[Headstall]

At times it has been so hard to watch and experience Matt's actions in the past. For the most part he has been a whiny, arrogant, inconsiderate slut. As a reader, it was easy to pretty much expect the worse from him but still there was something there that i think kept a lot of us hoping he would eventually see the light. In Bloodlines,there was a beautiful bond built between him and Wade and i find that because of that,i can't give up the hope that Matt will "see the light" . That is why i choose to look at what he says about relationships as a positive thing...i agree with Daddy Dave that this is his recognition of what is needed in a relationship...and an admission that he failed as a partner and a man.Wade is not an innocent in all this. He must take some responsibility for what happened to their partnership. He has wanted his cake and eat it too as well. At times he has been a deceitful manipulator and wanted his freedom to do what he wanted also. Granted, his sense of responsibility does exceed Matt's in the past...but here's hoping that the changes we are seeing in Matt are real ones. I personally am not giving up hope that these two find there way back to one another...but only if they come to realize that an open relationship is most likely destined for more pain and heartbreak...and failure. They had that in the past and it didn't work for them. Just saying...

[Mark Arbour]

At times it has been so hard to watch and experience Matt's actions in the past. For the most part he has been a whiny, arrogant, inconsiderate slut. As a reader, it was easy to pretty much expect the worse from him but still there was something there that i think kept a lot of us hoping he would eventually see the light. In Bloodlines,there was a beautiful bond built between him and Wade and i find that because of that,i can't give up the hope that Matt will "see the light" . That is why i choose to look at what he says about relationships as a positive thing...i agree with Daddy Dave that this is his recognition of what is needed in a relationship...and an admission that he failed as a partner and a man.Wade is not an innocent in all this. He must take some responsibility for what happened to their partnership. He has wanted his cake and eat it too as well. At times he has been a deceitful manipulator and wanted his freedom to do what he wanted also. Granted, his sense of responsibility does exceed Matt's in the past...but here's hoping that the changes we are seeing in Matt are real ones. I personally am not giving up hope that these two find there way back to one another...but only if they come to realize that an open relationship is most likely destined for more pain and heartbreak...and failure. They had that in the past and it didn't work for them. Just saying...

 

Good for you for getting that people can change, especially 22 year old guys who just graduate from college.  We've seen signs of that with Matt, the most notable probably being the way he ultimately gave Brad and Wade his blessing to still be together, even though he knew it might still hurt him.  

[Daddydavek]

Interesting to see Matt showing some maturity in the latest chapter, even to the extent of understanding Wade, perhaps better than Wade himself.  His insightful hint about dealing with JJ was priceless and I about laughed out loud just picturing him saying it and then picturing Wade's reaction.

 

The ending of the chapter with Robbie's birth mother was pitiful.  Some people like Mark said, never change.  At least Matt and Wade dished it right back to her.

[Headstall]

Great point, Daddy Dave, about Matt's maturity level, and understanding Wade better than Wade does. I totally agree and think that Matt is a little farther along in his growth than Wade is. This is very ironic when you consider their history. But knowing Wade, he will catch up fast. Wade has always needed a strong man as his partner and in the past that was not who Matt was...he was too much of a slut to be a strong partner. The new Matt shows such great promise..he is showing us that he has learned to appreciate quality over quantity when it comes to sex, and that sex with Wade is not to be matched for him...at least so far. It remains to be seen whether Matt will revert to his old ways...but i really don't think he will. Cheers

[Daddydavek]

Okay, so the latest chapter has every thing going hunky dory again and is it just me or is my worry that things are going too smooth justified knowing the devious mind of Mark Arbour?

[methodwriter85]

    I wonder if Will's going to be one of those guys who always look older than his age- like when he's 20, everyone will think he's about 25 or so. When he's 25, he'll look 30. That could be a nice contrast to Brad, who is 39 but apparently still looks 28 or so. Most of my friends who looked like full-grown men at 15 tend to stay older-looking because they were never boyish.

 

    Anyway, the bit where Geoffrey turns into a fanboy around JJ and JJ immediately likes him was hilarious. His '01 season ended relatively well after the disasters at Skate America and Skate Canada, so I imagine he's probably becoming pretty well-known among those who follow figure skating.

 

   As for Cam, it was interesting for him to vent at Matt for stuff that happened like four years ago. (CAP time.) That's high school for ya...those slights and hurts tend to reverabate way more than the stuff that happens to you in your 20's does.

 

 

I don't think Geoffrey is JJ's type, but it's funny to think about.

 

    I can't see JJ with loud, flamboyant, in-your-face attention-getters like himself. I think he'd go for cool, refined, articulate guys, like Anderson Cooper or Nicholas Hoult.

Edited May 27, 2014 by methodwriter85

[Headstall]

While Will is devoted to Zach, they don't have a formal commitment, so there is really nothing to prevent him from hooking up with Devon.(Quote from Mark Arbour)

 

While i get that there is no formal commitment, there is validity in Will doing his best to make his relationship work...any hookup has a chance of derailing such a relationship...and it would seem that Will is commited very much to Zach at this point...and there is also a certain truth in that, for some people, it feels really good to be monogamous, even when not asked or obligated.So theoretically yes, there is  "nothing to prevent him from hooking up with Devon" other than what Will himself feels about it. I for one, would respect his choice if he obstained from doing so. As he alluded to earlier...why would he settle for hamburger when he could wait a few days for steak. Saying that in front of Zach was in itself an indication that he was feeling the commitment, formal or not. I personally would not judge Will if he does hook up with Devon, but i would be very impressed with him if he made a choice not to do so. Different strokes....

[Mark Arbour]

While Will is devoted to Zach, they don't have a formal commitment, so there is really nothing to prevent him from hooking up with Devon.(Quote from Mark Arbour)

 

While i get that there is no formal commitment, there is validity in Will doing his best to make his relationship work...any hookup has a chance of derailing such a relationship...and it would seem that Will is commited very much to Zach at this point...and there is also a certain truth in that, for some people, it feels really good to be monogamous, even when not asked or obligated.So theoretically yes, there is  "nothing to prevent him from hooking up with Devon" other than what Will himself feels about it. I for one, would respect his choice if he obstained from doing so. As he alluded to earlier...why would he settle for hamburger when he could wait a few days for steak. Saying that in front of Zach was in itself an indication that he was feeling the commitment, formal or not. I personally would not judge Will if he does hook up with Devon, but i would be very impressed with him if he made a choice not to do so. Different strokes....

 

I understand what you're saying, and you make a good point.  On the other hand, Zach isn't being faithful (as far as Will knows) and they've had instances in the past where they've had to wear condoms because Zach wasn't safe.  So the corollary to that view is that Will may feel the need to also branch out a bit and sleep with the occasional guy, just so he doesn't feel like a total tool.

[Headstall]

Fair enough, Mark, on your last post. That said,they are farther along now in their relationship and hence, the seriousness of it. I am just thinking that there would be nothing wrong in Will taking the iniative and setting new guidelines for them to consider, IF he wants to. He is young, but he has lived and experienced more than most twenty somethings,and to me , this relationship with Zach seems different so maybe he would want the parameters to change. I confess that there are ulterior motives here for me because of the way i look at relationships...i am not a have your cake and eat it too guy and i truly get great satisfaction from being "true blue" ...and while i am older i have pretty much always felt this way. While i understand other points of view, i would never be motivated to sleep with a guy with the goal of not feeling like a tool(although i have felt like a total tool when i have been cheated on). I feel like i have taken my point too far so i will end by saying that i don't expect Will to take a particular road.I was just pointing out that there was another way he COULD look at things...and he has grown tremendously over the last CAP year. Cheers...Gary

[Daddydavek]

Well Devon was a diversion and it is clear that Will felt some guilt about it.  Matt did a credible job of diffusing it, but like I said in my comment on the chapter, both Wade and Zach were certainly in this chapter.

[B1ue]

Fair enough, Mark, on your last post. That said,they are farther along now in their relationship and hence, the seriousness of it. I am just thinking that there would be nothing wrong in Will taking the iniative and setting new guidelines for them to consider, IF he wants to. He is young, but he has lived and experienced more than most twenty somethings,and to me , this relationship with Zach seems different so maybe he would want the parameters to change. I confess that there are ulterior motives here for me because of the way i look at relationships...i am not a have your cake and eat it too guy and i truly get great satisfaction from being "true blue" ...and while i am older i have pretty much always felt this way. While i understand other points of view, i would never be motivated to sleep with a guy with the goal of not feeling like a tool(although i have felt like a total tool when i have been cheated on). I feel like i have taken my point too far so i will end by saying that i don't expect Will to take a particular road.I was just pointing out that there was another way he COULD look at things...and he has grown tremendously over the last CAP year. Cheers...Gary

 

Here's the thing: Zach can't commit to Will the same way. Not without compromising more than he is willing to give up at this time. I don't think Will is willing to commit to Zach if that commitment is not reciprocal; he's too rigid in his patterns of thought.

[methodwriter85]

 

Here's the thing: Zach can't commit to Will the same way. Not without compromising more than he is willing to give up at this time. I don't think Will is willing to commit to Zach if that commitment is not reciprocal; he's too rigid in his patterns of thought

 

It's pretty sad when you think that of all the gay rights advancements in the 2000's that occurred, this is one that didn't move forward at all in that decade, and it took until the mid-part of the next one to see any kind of forward advancement.

 

   Will and Zach, unless Zach decides to give up his dream of being an NFL player, can't really have any kind of happy ending until at least 2014 in CAP World. And if Zach did give that up to be with Will, I can't see where that wouldn't evolve into bitter and angry resentment on his part.

 

   It's a completely doomed relationship, and everybody knows it, but they're just trying to enjoy it while they can.

Edited May 30, 2014 by methodwriter85

[Kitt]

There are a lot more variables to the Zach/Will relationship than you guys are taking into consideration. Yes, if everything goes as planned for Zach's football career it makes an open relationship with Will impossible if Mark sticks to what has actually happened in the real world concerning gay men in most professional sports.

 

But there are so many other things that could change the entire picture.

 

There is the possibility of Zach having a career ending injury - something every aspiring running back faces.

 

The possibility of him not cutting it academically and losing his position on the team because of it. I knew a very gifted Varsity Baseball pitcher in high school who was also very gifted academically. Graduated early, full ride to his first choice school and a guarantee starter spot on the uni team. His first semester he found himself to no longer be the top of the heap - just one of the crowd. He had a complete breakdown, including hospitalization, and did not return to school to try and start over for several years.

 

The possibility of a change in Zach's priorities.

 

The possibility of being outed by some act independent of his time with Will. One wrong word by one of the people who know Zach's preferences and its over. Hell, one wrong word from one of the girls he dates as cover could end his career aspirations for reasons totally unrelated to being gay. And I am still not sure I trust this Barry person, in spite of what was said in that meeting in Malibu. He seems to me like the type who might try to use the knowledge of Zach's sexuality as leverage.

 

The possibility of Will becoming impatient and moving on to someone he can be open with. ( Who, Will? Impatient?)

 

There is even the possibility that Mark takes poetic licence and has Zach come out and face the consequences, in spite of the fact that this did not actually happen till 2014 in real life. This is fiction after all and Mark can do anything he damn well pleases!

[B1ue]

Almost all of that is coming from Zach's side of things, though. The original comment was why Will wasn't trying to be committed to Zach, not the other way around. Free of other considerations, I'm sure Zach and Will would become exclusive (as long as neither becomes a narrator); it would make sense for their characters. But may as well say "In a perfect world..." Perfect worlds make for boring characters.

[Kitt]

Almost all of that is coming from Zach's side of things, though.

This is true, but if I had written down everything that could change the situation I would still have been writing my post now, and it might just have had more words than the last chapter did! LOL

[Daddydavek]

The interesting thing about the whole dynamic is that we are looking at things with 20/20 hindsight.  We know it isn't until 2014 that an openly gay guy actually gets selected by a pro NFL team.  I think that perspective is part of why Mark likes to write historical fiction, taking into account the cultural milieu of the period and working around the cultural boundaries of that time.  It sure has set up a tense dynamic for Will and Zach and as many have noted it appears to doom their long-term prospects.   

 

However, as Kit points out, they are both young and will probably change quite a bit as they mature.  Even a mature fifteen year is a quite different person at twenty-five....And while to them ten years is an eternity, it will pass faster than they expect.

[Mark Arbour]

There are a lot more variables to the Zach/Will relationship than you guys are taking into consideration. Yes, if everything goes as planned for Zach's football career it makes an open relationship with Will impossible if Mark sticks to what has actually happened in the real world concerning gay men in most professional sports.

 

But there are so many other things that could change the entire picture.

 

There is the possibility of Zach having a career ending injury - something every aspiring running back faces.

 

The possibility of him not cutting it academically and losing his position on the team because of it. I knew a very gifted Varsity Baseball pitcher in high school who was also very gifted academically. Graduated early, full ride to his first choice school and a guarantee starter spot on the uni team. His first semester he found himself to no longer be the top of the heap - just one of the crowd. He had a complete breakdown, including hospitalization, and did not return to school to try and start over for several years.

 

The possibility of a change in Zach's priorities.

 

The possibility of being outed by some act independent of his time with Will. One wrong word by one of the people who know Zach's preferences and its over. Hell, one wrong word from one of the girls he dates as cover could end his career aspirations for reasons totally unrelated to being gay. And I am still not sure I trust this Barry person, in spite of what was said in that meeting in Malibu. He seems to me like the type who might try to use the knowledge of Zach's sexuality as leverage.

 

The possibility of Will becoming impatient and moving on to someone he can be open with. ( Who, Will? Impatient?)

 

There is even the possibility that Mark takes poetic licence and has Zach come out and face the consequences, in spite of the fact that this did not actually happen till 2014 in real life. This is fiction after all and Mark can do anything he damn well pleases!

 

What a great conversation!  Those are good points.  I think that 16/17 year olds, even mature ones like Zach and Will, tend to be myopic, and live for the day.  They see these challenges coming, and they choose to largely ignore them, opting to take a "we'll deal with it when it's an issue" approach. 

 

I've done some research on gay NFL players, and I think I've mentioned this before, but I'll reiterate in case I haven't.  There have been gay NFL players, and people on their team knew about it, but for the most part, they ignored it.  The sense I'm getting in the NFL is that it was a Don't Ask-Don't Tell kind of thing.  Once it became public, that's a whole different story.  In a twisted way, it makes sense that the NFL would follow the military's general attitude on this. 

[Kitt]

I've done some research on gay NFL players, and I think I've mentioned this before, but I'll reiterate in case I haven't.  There have been gay NFL players, and people on their team knew about it, but for the most part, they ignored it.  The sense I'm getting in the NFL is that it was a Don't Ask-Don't Tell kind of thing.  Once it became public, that's a whole different story.  In a twisted way, it makes sense that the NFL would follow the military's general attitude on this. 

Being gay and being OPENLY gay are two separate issues. Zach needs to get through the rest of high school and university before worrying about the NFL locker room.  The boys are currently going the DADT route. That takes guts, determination, and a bit of luck besides.

[Headstall]

Wow...very interesting. My original post was all about Will, as a very strong individual, having the option of proceeding with his relationship in a different way IF he wanted too. I agree with the general consensus that it may well be doomed with all that it entails...so they will have to work very hard to ensure that it is given the best chance of suceeding in the long run. One way to aid this COULD be for Will to lead by example...and if he did it may influence what may now be indiscriminate hookups by Zach that may contribute to the relationship's demise. As well I would suggest that they need to talk about what is going on when they are apart...burying their heads in the sand is not a healthy thing to do for either of them. I think Will especially is going to harbor resentments because for now he is only speculating on what and who Zach's hookups consist of. I also don't  think Barry should be setting the rules for their relationship...it is a common sense kind of thing and I personally would never give up that kind of control to him. As Mark said, there were gay players present in the NFL during this time and i think that rationally, most everyone knew it...so if Zach chose to have a more monogamous relationship with the man he loves..he would be able to manage to do it without really giving up anything. I also think that if these two tried to find that elusive perfect balance in their relationship it would not make for boring characters but rather ones to be admired for beating the odds stacked against them.With that being said, they are young adults (i won't call them kids because they both have a certain level of maturity ) and as Kitt said,there is so much that can happen in their futures.It's all in Mark's capable hands anyway....cheers all....Gary 

[methodwriter85]

I've done some research on gay NFL players, and I think I've mentioned this before, but I'll reiterate in case I haven't.  There have been gay NFL players, and people on their team knew about it, but for the most part, they ignored it.  The sense I'm getting in the NFL is that it was a Don't Ask-Don't Tell kind of thing.  Once it became public, that's a whole different story.  In a twisted way, it makes sense that the NFL would follow the military's general attitude on this. 

 

It's kind of what Tiffany said to Will when he wondered why it's such a big deal being gay in figure skating when they were at the junior Grand Prix in Norway in November 2000: "No, it's being OPENLY gay." It's been rumored for a very long time, and with lots of anecdotal evidence backing it up, that Troy Aikman is gay or at least bi, that he's been seen quite often around the gay Dallas neighborhood, and that his former marriage that pronounced no kids was just a sham.

 

We can have Zack be gay and have very closeted relationships. We just can't have Zach being OPENLY gay, not if he's still trying to head to the NFL teams. There's artistic license and then there's just things that flat out contradict the time period, which is this case, is still technically period until the next NFL season starts.

 

As for Will and Zach having a monogamous relationship...I don't know. What hallmarks of a committed relationship can they really have? They can't live together- it'd be suspicious as hell for Zach to have Will live with him being that Will's a trust fund kid...it's not like you could wave him off as a personal assistant. Will in general is pretty damn high profile, and high-profile as a openly gay rich guy who looks like a 19-year old Abercrombie and Fitch model- it's not like Will can sufficiently fade into the background. Will seems like a guy who'd want to have kids by his mid-20's, but that would be impossible for Will and Zach to pull off and still stay in the closet.

 

And don't forget- we're now heading into the era of social media, camera phones, which means they've got to be even more careful. If Zach gets himself consistently photographed around Will, a gorgeous openly gay guy from a very rich family but who doesn't seem to have any kind of boyfriend...bloggers are going to start to wonder, and tongues are going to wag. As Barry said, if they're not seen dating other people, it's going to make people wonder.

 

Will probably would have to get a "beard" boyfriend at some point, but that seems like something where I can see Will eventually developing feelings for the guy, since it's not a beard in the traditional sense.

Edited May 30, 2014 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

Will probably would have to get a "beard" boyfriend at some point, but that seems like something where I can see Will eventually developing feelings for the guy, since it's not a beard in the traditional sense.

Will wouldn't have a beard. He'd have a purse, whose function would be to look pretty and hold things for Will.