Flux

[Mark Arbour]

I couldn't decide which part to quote and say "Yes, good," to, so I just took it all.

 

For myself, I wonder what's going on with Alex, but I don't hate him because he's beautiful. It is possible that people hate him because he's getting in the way of Wade and Matt riding off into the sunset together. It may not matter what exactly he does, he'll still be a jerk simply for existing, being desired, and wanting a relationship either or both of the "main" characters. It's a phenomenon I've only ever noticed applied to female characters, but there's a first time for everything.

 

You know, this story is providing me a pretext to get an awful lot more use out of the English degree than I ever thought I'd use.

 

Now that is exciting, that your English degree is becoming (more) useful. 

 

I've been accused in prior posts of writing the story to incline people to detest Alex, while then simultaneously defending him in the forum and review responses.  And knowing how twisted and sadistic my mind is, there is some plausibility to this theory.    In actuality, I know that I've set up an emotional scenario, but much like JP would do, I am trying to throw out some facts to challenge those emotional assumptions.  That doesn't mean readers can't reach the same conclusions, I'm just trying to get readers to be more objective.  Then again, this is fiction, and fun, so they really don't have to do that.  Your comments largely (along with some of the others) reflect that objective.

[Headstall]

There was so much in your post that I wanted to support but I will limit myself to the point above. Alex and Wade have clear and significant differences in their understanding of their relationship. Alex seems to assume that he has all the control. This is not about partnership. While Alex could have some influence, he does not define the relationship between Matt and Wade.

 

What happens when Alex decides that Matt is no longer flavour of the month? When Alex moves on to his next whore/s? Is Wade supposed to dump Matt? Cut off all ties? Now that's a conversation I want to see. 

Thanks Bucket...and good points as well as food for thought. This whole Alex thing has been on my mind...both his actions and what he says. I know we have only had glimpses but does he not come across as someone who is used to being worshipped and is this not what Wade did (worship him) for a while?... or is this a bit of a stretch? If this is somewhat accurate,then should't we expect that Wade's blinders would eventually come off? As someone previously posted...if you give someone enough rope...the one thing I have faith in is Wade's logic, intelligence and sense of self. He may have been temporarily fogged out but I can't imagine him being blinded forever and I think you are right...he would draw the line at hurting Matt again, no matter what he may feel for Alex. There are two things that Mark has said in replies to my reviews ...one was that Matt was not giving up on Wade and the other was that Matt was trying to figure out a way to fit in to this Wade/ Alex/Matt dynamic and when I put those two things together I can see there being an element of desperation present in Matt and how he is acting right now. I am referring to the fact that he seems to be reverting to his Stanford ways again in his dealings with  Alex as if he has figured out that he needs to be slutty to keep his place in this dynamic, and if that is the case it is a shame because of the strides he has made to leave those behaviors behind. Just saying...but what do I know...

[Bucket1]

I've been accused in prior posts of writing the story to incline people to detest Alex, while then simultaneously defending him in the forum and review responses.  And knowing how twisted and sadistic my mind is, there is some plausibility to this theory.    In actuality, I know that I've set up an emotional scenario, but much like JP would do, I am trying to throw out some facts to challenge those emotional assumptions.  That doesn't mean readers can't reach the same conclusions, I'm just trying to get readers to be more objective.  Then again, this is fiction, and fun, so they really don't have to do that.  Your comments largely (along with some of the others) reflect that objective.

 

I reflect back on my comments about you and am reminded that I called you the king of the emotional roller coaster, a complete bastard and a damn good writer.

 

All of these impression still hold true 

[Headstall]

“There’s a reason that I wanted you to be available and not off limits, a reason that goes beyond my concern for preserving your relationship with Wade.”  He was throwing out power like Brad did, and to be honest, it was pretty hot.  “I knew you’d be a good piece of ass.” From chapter 41

So I must admit I am really confused...Wade looked at Alex`s gesture as a gift and Alex could have insisted on a monogamous relationship with Wade. Out of Alex`s mouth...doesn`t this prove that it wasn`t a gift for Wade but in actuality a lie or omission by Alex to get what HE wanted (question mark-mine quit) and by the same token doesn`t this prove that Alex didn`t want to be exclusive at all. He just let Wade think that. So he has done nothing dishonorable(question mark). And why should he be in control of the relationship...shouldn`t it be both of them sharing control (question mark). It seems to me that, according to this statement from Alex, that he manipulated things and Wade to get exactly what he wanted. I have the utmost respect for you, Mr. Arbour, and I get that you like to stir things up and play the devil`s advocate...and you do succeed in getting our passions going and making us think. In Alex`s case you asked the questions...I am not trying to prove any point...I am just trying to understand something that on the surface, seems rather clear to me...I will say again...I am really confused...cheers...Gary

[Bucket1]

I think that Alex does, in fact, have control of this situation.  He and Wade made a pact to be sexually involved only with each other with one exception:  Matt.  As Wade explained it, that was Alex's offering to Wade to make it easier for him, something Wade probably thought of as a gift.  Alex could have reasonably said "no" and demanded a monogamous relationship, and I have to believe that Wade would have agreed to that, at least initially.  It is interesting that Alex and Wade both have very different interpretations of Matt's inclusion in their relationship. 

 

As relationships stand right now, Wade and Alex are in a committed relationship, while Wade and Matt are merely friends with benefits.  In that regard, I can see why Alex would see Matt as being involved in Alex's relationship with Wade.  And while the statement may have offended Matt, if he had taken it in a less personal vein, he may have interpreted Alex's words as indicating he was happy with their situation (with him, Wade, and Matt). 

 

 

You have made a lot of assumptions here, and I would suggest one of them is erroneous.  You have assumed that Alex does in fact have a Madonna-whore complex, and that may be correct.  But you have also assumed that Alex is lying to Wade when he says he won't sleep with anyone else but Matt, and I've seen nothing to indicate that Alex is that dishonorable. 

 

I agree with you that Alex has the upper hand at the moment but things change especially in Escorial. Wade didn't make a pact to be exclusive to Alex but where both of them got to be with Matt.                  

 

I think that saying Matt and Wade are merely friends with benefits denies the depth and complexity of their relationship especially now. Friends with benefits don't tell each other that there is a 90% chance that they will be together forever. And I also question the committed nature of Alex and Wade - as you have presented the facts, Wade's definition of exclusive is very different to Alex's. 

 

From chapter 34 - Matt's voice

 

Maybe Alex would only agree to a fair deal, so if Wade could fuck me, that gave him free reign.  “Can he sleep with other people?”  

 “No,” he said, shaking his head for emphasis.  “But he knew how important you are to me, and he said that if it would help our friendship, he would be OK with it.” 

 

This is why Wade is confused.

 

And apart from anything else, how worried should we be when Wade has already acknowledge that he and Alex have a time limited relationship. It cannot be forever since they both have commitments that doom their relationship long term.

 

Finally if the three amateur psychologists, Matt, Wade and myself are in fact right, the compartmentalization of the Madonna and whore are part of the syndrome. Once a lying cheating bastard, always a lying cheating bastard. Alex shouldn't be trusted as the future Lady Voldemort has already found out.

[Headstall]

   “He told me it was OK,” I said.  “He said that was part of your deal, that it was OK for you and him to be with me.” 

                  “I didn’t realize that he was allowed to mess around with you.  I thought it was just the two of us.”

Quote from chapter 41

 

Matt says the first part and Wade says the second part. I would say this was a pretty important point for Wade to get wrong...and it would appear from Alex`s previous statement that he didn`t. Wade was manipulated by Alex to suit what Alex wanted...namely Matt, who he pretty much attacked at the airport, after which he said ...wait until I fuck you...

[Bucket1]

“There’s a reason that I wanted you to be available and not off limits, a reason that goes beyond my concern for preserving your relationship with Wade.”  He was throwing out power like Brad did, and to be honest, it was pretty hot.  “I knew you’d be a good piece of ass.” From chapter 41

So I must admit I am really confused...Wade looked at Alex`s gesture as a gift and Alex could have insisted on a monogamous relationship with Wade. Out of Alex`s mouth...doesn`t this prove that it wasn`t a gift for Wade but in actuality a lie or omission by Alex to get what HE wanted (question mark-mine quit) and by the same token doesn`t this prove that Alex didn`t want to be exclusive at all. He just let Wade think that. So he has done nothing dishonorable(question mark). And why should he be in control of the relationship...shouldn`t it be both of them sharing control (question mark). It seems to me that, according to this statement from Alex, that he manipulated things and Wade to get exactly what he wanted. I have the utmost respect for you, Mr. Arbour, and I get that you like to stir things up and play the devil`s advocate...and you do succeed in getting our passions going and making us think. In Alex`s case you asked the questions...I am not trying to prove any point...I am just trying to understand something that on the surface, seems rather clear to me...I will say again...I am really confused...cheers...Gary

 

Thanks for finding that quote. Alex is a self-serving manipulative prick. Matt is an idiot for getting caught up in his spell but Alex is.... Oh bugger it. Bring on the Zamboni. I will drive it.

[Irritable1]

Wouldn't he HAVE to say something like that, though, just to be polite? You can't very well tell someone you're propositioning them because they're convenient.

[Bucket1]

   “He told me it was OK,” I said.  “He said that was part of your deal, that it was OK for you and him to be with me.” 

                  “I didn’t realize that he was allowed to mess around with you.  I thought it was just the two of us.”

Quote from chapter 41

 

Matt says the first part and Wade says the second part. I would say this was a pretty important point for Wade to get wrong...and it would appear from Alex`s previous statement that he didn`t. Wade was manipulated by Alex to suit what Alex wanted...namely Matt, who he pretty much attacked at the airport, after which he said ...wait until I fuck you...

 

That works. Alex didn't go and see his sick boyfriend because the trip to Escorial ( perhaps his whole relationship with Wade???) was all about getting Matt's ass. I might need to revise my thoughts about Alex being fucked up rather than evil

[Mark Arbour]

“There’s a reason that I wanted you to be available and not off limits, a reason that goes beyond my concern for preserving your relationship with Wade.”  He was throwing out power like Brad did, and to be honest, it was pretty hot.  “I knew you’d be a good piece of ass.” From chapter 41

So I must admit I am really confused...Wade looked at Alex`s gesture as a gift and Alex could have insisted on a monogamous relationship with Wade. Out of Alex`s mouth...doesn`t this prove that it wasn`t a gift for Wade but in actuality a lie or omission by Alex to get what HE wanted (question mark-mine quit)

 

Possibly.  On the other hand, this may just be Alex' way of posturing with Matt.  I can definitely see them having an alpha male face off. 

I think this comment is spot on: 

Wouldn't he HAVE to say something like that, though, just to be polite? You can't very well tell someone you're propositioning them because they're convenient.

 

 

and by the same token doesn`t this prove that Alex didn`t want to be exclusive at all. He just let Wade think that. So he has done nothing dishonorable(question mark).

 

 

No.  There's nothing here to indicate that Alex has gone beyond the bounds of their relationship (having sex only with Matt and Wade) or that he intended to do that.  Keep in mind that Alex may have wanted to have sex with Matt, but that didn't mean it was going to happen.

 

And why should he be in control of the relationship...shouldn`t it be both of them sharing control (question mark).

 

 

Alex is in control of this situation, because he was the one granting Matt the exemption, and he was doing it at least primarily for Wade.  And note that I didn't say Alex was in control of the relationship, I said he was in control of the situation, which is but one aspect of their relationship.

 

It seems to me that, according to this statement from Alex, that he manipulated things and Wade to get exactly what he wanted.

 

 

 

I think that Alex probably worked with what limited information he had when he first hooked up with Wade.  He didn't really know them, or the situation all that well.  Based on the way Wade acted going into this relationship, I think Alex was trying to make things easier for Wade.

[Headstall]

Thanks for finding that quote. Alex is a self-serving manipulative prick. Matt is an idiot for getting caught up in his spell but Alex is.... Oh bugger it. Bring on the Zamboni. I will drive it.

The thing is, when Alex says that he knew Matt would be a hot piece of ass....It means that while he was walking and riding and being all romantic with Wade at His farm...he was thinking about Matt as a possibility at least...because he hadn`t seen Matt from the time he left Alex`s farm devastated, until the limo at the airport when he told him why he wanted Matt around. That is calculated and I wonder now how much he really cares for Wade. I am not saying he doesn`t but he has obviously coveted Matt as well from pretty much the beginning...at least as a raunchy sex partner. Sorry Mark...don`t hate me for saying this .jJust remember that these characters are very real to us, but ultimately they belong to you...cheers

[Mark Arbour]

That works. Alex didn't go and see his sick boyfriend because the trip to Escorial ( perhaps his whole relationship with Wade???) was all about getting Matt's ass.

 

You took some pretty big leaps there.  I think Alex didn't go see Wade simply because Wade didn't want him to, and because he probably didn't want to catch whatever sickness Wade had. 

 

I think the thing to keep in mind is that just because Wade and Matt had really good sex, and just because Alex and Wade don't have satisfying sex, doesn't mean that Alex is an inherently evil  and scheming person. 

[Mark Arbour]

The thing is, when Alex says that he knew Matt would be a hot piece of ass....It means that while he was walking and riding and being all romantic with Wade at His farm...he was thinking about Matt as a possibility at least...because he hadn`t seen Matt from the time he left Alex`s farm devastated, until the limo at the airport when he told him why he wanted Matt around. That is calculated and I wonder now how much he really cares for Wade. I am not saying he doesn`t but he has obviously coveted Matt as well from pretty much the beginning...at least as a raunchy sex partner. Sorry Mark...don`t hate me for saying this .jJust remember that these characters are very real to us, but ultimately they belong to you...cheers

 

Because when men are having sex with someone (and either immediately before or after that sexual encounter) they are always painfully honest? 

 

I don't think that Alex coveted Matt at all.  I think that when he made that statement, he was throwing some serious power at Matt, and the reason for that was to establish that he (Alex) was in the driver's seat of this relationship with Wade.  In his mind, I'm sure that Matt was an appendage, something tacked on to make Wade happy.  But that doesn't mean Alex is willing to play second fiddle to Matt.  That's something I can't see him doing.

 

Hopefully if you look at it from that angle, you'll see that while Alex may be manipulative from a power perspective, he wasn't scheming to use Wade just to get Matt into his bed.  Quite frankly, he could have done that without getting Wade involved at all.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Mark Arbour

[Headstall]

Wouldn't he HAVE to say something like that, though, just to be polite? You can't very well tell someone you're propositioning them because they're convenient.

Sorry but I can`t buy this at all. That is a pretty detailed statement to make when all he had to do was be his agressive self and ask Matt if he wanted to have some fun. I bought the statement that Mark wrote.

[mmike1969]

Okay I get the threesome now:

 

Alex is The Lord

Wade is the princess/Trophy Wife

Matt is the bitch-manwhore serving both lord and wife.

 

Everyone gets what they want and deserve!

[Irritable1]

 

 

I don't think that Alex coveted Matt at all.  I think that when he made that statement, he was throwing some serious power at Matt, and the reason for that was to establish that he (Alex) was in the driver's seat of this relationship with Wade.

 

Wait. Is it really necessary for his lordship to boink Matt just so he gets to make a statement about his own lordly role in the relationship? Seems like overkill. Also, makes me hate him more, but then everything does, so 

[Mark Arbour]

   “He told me it was OK,” I said.  “He said that was part of your deal, that it was OK for you and him to be with me.” 

                  “I didn’t realize that he was allowed to mess around with you.  I thought it was just the two of us.”

Quote from chapter 41

 

 

 

 

I am disappointed that I didn't write in the scene between Alex and Wade, but I would imagine it would be broad enough to create potential confusion.  I could see Alex and Wade, laying in bed after blowing each other, deciding how their relationship would function.  Wade would be focused on monogamy, because it's something he never had with Matt, and it's something that he probably craves.  Alex would probably be focused on that too.  Then I can see Wade opening up to Alex about Matt, and about how they'd grown apart and then together, sharing his thoughts and sadness about hurting Matt.  I think that Alex is perceptive enough to see the pain Wade was dealing with, and in the spirit of new love, I think he would have been concerned for Wade.  Alex would have probably said something to the effect that "we can make an allowance for Matt.  I certainly wouldn't want to cause him, or you, anguish."  Wade would have heard that and thought Alex was referring to Alex and Wade making Matt an exception for Wade, while Alex would have meant that Matt was an exception for both of them. 

 

Miscommunication does happen in relationships. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Mark Arbour

[Irritable1]

 

 

Wade would have heard that and thought Alex was referring to Alex and Wade making Matt an exception for Wade, while Alex would have meant that Matt was an exception for both of them. 

 

Seems a bit gauche for Alex to just have assumed.  Makes me think of that whole droit du seigneur thing. 

 

Edit: though I suppose in Matt's case it's a fair assumption? I can't understand him not at least checking with Wade first though.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Irritable1

[Bucket1]

I am disappointed that I didn't write in the scene between Alex and Wade, but I would imagine it would be broad enough to create potential confusion.  I could see Alex and Wade, laying in bed after blowing each other, deciding how their relationship would function.  Wade would be focused on monogamy, because it's something he never had with Matt, and it's something that he probably craves.  Alex would probably be focused on that too.  Then I can see Wade opening up to Alex about Matt, and about how they'd grown apart and then together, sharing his thoughts and sadness about hurting Matt.  I think that Alex is perceptive enough to see the pain Wade was dealing with, and in the spirit of new love, I think he would have been concerned for Wade.  Alex would have probably said something to the effect that "we can make an allowance for Matt.  I certainly wouldn't want to cause him, or you, anguish."  Wade would have heard that and thought Alex was referring to Alex and Wade making Matt an exception for Wade, while Alex would have meant that Matt was an exception for both of them. 

 

Miscommunication does happen in relationships. 

 

Mmmmmmm well, I haven't got of the Zamboni yet. Miscommunication is often a problem in CAP and in life. But this is a biggie.

 

As you have confessed, you do like to stir the pot. IMHO you have set Alex up to be one of the most unpleasant characters in CAP and I include Wade's mother in that equation. I put it to you that if you want us to like Alex then you have set yourself a tough writing challenge. Don't expect miracle conversions 

[Bucket1]

Seems a bit gauche for Alex to just have assumed.  Makes me think of that whole droit du seigneur thing. 

 

Edit: though I suppose in Matt's case it's a fair assumption? I can't understand him not at least checking with Wade first though.

 

Poor Mark, even when he trying to redeem Alex, we still find fault with him. 

[Irritable1]

Poor Mark, even when he trying to redeem Alex, we still find fault with him. 

 

We hates him, my precioussss! (Alex, I mean)

 

Edit: I mean, really.... if your precious princess had a precious ex, wouldn't you double-check before defiling said precious ex in the back of a limo? 

 

And with that, I'm going to bed.... Thanks for a fun discussion, all!

Edited July 29, 2014 by Irritable1

[Mark Arbour]

Poor Mark, even when he trying to redeem Alex, we still find fault with him. 

 

 I honestly don't care if you all like Alex or not, but I do think that it is a good idea to look at things objectively.    

[Bucket1]

 I honestly don't care if you all like Alex or not, but I do think that it is a good idea to look at things objectively.    

 

We have not been privy to the scene you discussed, the one that might have shown us just how bad/vague the communications were between Alex and Wade. While I acknowledge that you are not perfect, you have however provided us with a reasonably high standard of writing and so far, Alex has not been projected in a good light. Unfortunately I only have access to the well crafted text you provide us and not to all the drafts and thoughts running through your head.

 

A significant number of posts have reflected that Alex's behaviour has not been for the benefit of anyone other than Alex. Given that you are the only one that really knows what is happening, you do have access to more info than the rest of us but it is hard to look back on all the text you supplied and not think that Alex is bad news.

 

As as I said before, if you are looking for us to change our minds about Alex, you have set yourself a tough writing challenge.

 

Objectivity can be good for us all 

[Mark Arbour]

We have not been privy to the scene you discussed, the one that might have shown us just how bad/vague the communications were between Alex and Wade. While I acknowledge that you are not perfect, you have however provided us with a reasonably high standard of writing and so far, Alex has not been projected in a good light. Unfortunately I only have access to the well crafted text you provide us and not to all the drafts and thoughts running through your head.

 

A significant number of posts have reflected that Alex's behaviour has not been for the benefit of anyone other than Alex. Given that you are the only one that really knows what is happening, you do have access to more info than the rest of us but it is hard to look back on all the text you supplied and not think that Alex is bad news.

 

As as I said before, if you are looking for us to change our minds about Alex, you have set yourself a tough writing challenge.

 

Objectivity can be good for us all 

 

The number of posts is irrelevant unless they come from different sources.  This is a case where size doesn't matter. :-)

 

The cool thing about writing fiction is that it is open to interpretation.  In fact, I often leave details vague so you can paint in the blanks on your own.  And as I said before, my objective isn't to convince you to like Alex, but I would hope he'd at least get a fair trial.  Then again, those aren't very common here in the US. :-)

[Never Surrender]

I'm wondering, Mark, if Alex's problem is partly in the way he talks.  He's extremely formal at times, almost like something out of historical fiction. Even the royal princes don't talk like that in their interviews.  So lord-loving readers may feel like he's a modern guy but kind of pompous and hence phony. And non-lord-loving readers may be triggered into a subliminal fear that he's NOT a modern guy and will get Matt in the family way and then abandon him in the workhouse. Edit: I'm an unattached reader, but his scenes set my teeth on edge, and I can't pin it down as due to anything else.

 

i have nothing much to add, but thanks to having horses, hunting on horseback, countryside sports and being involved in that part of life, i know a few lords of varying ages and some of them definitely talk like Alex much to my amusement, its great fun to mimic them when we are bantering around. Mark does very well to portray his speech and actions in a plausible and realistic way, even if that does make him sound pompous sometimes