Good to hear that about OS, but don't work yourself too hard. An exhausted Dom is no good to anybody

As for your Mum - I think you have every right to be pissed. Its this contradictory Christian notion of "we still love you, but we've still got to set you on the right path" that really riles me up. They say "remove the plank from your own eye, before the speck in your neighbours" when it suits them, but they still have to interfere. The whole "God is the only one who judges" notion is the same thing. Why can't they follow their own damn teachings instead of changing them for every circumstance?!? Arrggh.

Now I know all Christians are not like that. I consider myself one. Its just meddling Christians with a specific agenda that really annoy me.

Sorry if I've offended anyone, I wasn't intending to go into rant mode.

Good luck with your mum Dom, I hope everything turns out for the best.

I believe that in her head, this is being supportive. But, I

Wow, what a timely blog entry. I was going to blog about an incident that happened with my dad recently, but I'll put it here instead of my own blog (more traffic ).

My dad was in the hospital a couple weeks ago because they were going to remove a tumor in his head. I came down to visit and my mom was also in his room, so I figured 'Hey, now's a good time to tell them that I split up with Bill (Bill and I had been together for 10 years)'.

Bill was basically part of the family, he was always included and welcomed at all the family functions. When my parents took all of us on a cruise, there was no question that Bill was invited and paid for. I had always thought that they were okay with the 'gay thing'.

So anyhow, my mom starts asking me about Bill, so I decide to just tell the folks that we split up.

My dad, who's a little fatigued and loopy from the drugs and the pain says 'Vic, now's the time for your to consider having a relationship with a women. You can make it work.'

Well, I was a little shocked, but in a gentle voice I said 'No.' and left it at that.

After I left, I was a little torn. I was sad and worried about my dad (and whether he would come out of the surgery okay), but I was also pissed that after all this time, they still don't understand.

His surgery went okay but he's also scheduled for a triple bypass at the end of the month. I'd really like to address the issue that he brought up, but now is not the time.

parents...*sigh*

It is hard to tell from those excerpts and not knowing your mother what she is trying to say - possibly given the 'not mentioning' but reiterating 'you are her son', probably means she feels uncomfortable with the the topic, but will support you no matter what. This might be her way of trying to explain how she feels, without wandering up to you and causing 'ructions all over the place.

This way you know how she feels, but can leave it at that - personally I see no reason why everything must be confronted, some things I believe are much better where everyone knows what each other knows and no more needst be said about it.

As I am a Quaker, I tend to look on the bible and its teachings differently to the more conformist churches (even the non- conformist ones). The thing of note is that Romans is actually the opinion of P(S)aul and his belief of what God/Jesus expect. It needs to be also remembered that immorality in them thar days, was different to how we understand it now and would be very surprised if we trolled up to church to find 'altar' prostitutes to help us connect through a sexual act.

Finally I'd point out - 1 Samuel 17 onwards, whiklst anything in the Bible can be made to make whatever point one wants to make when taken out of context - I think these verses need to be read quite carefully.

bodgy

I'm a bit take-no-prisoners on this stuff. My mum has developed her own tactic for dealing with this. She repeatedly forgets that I'm gay. She's old enough to be almost able to get away with it. Weirdly she then starts talking about when she worked in film and how she can recognise a homosexual at 60 paces. Or she runs out her new civil rights record and fiercely criticises our PM for banning gay marriage when it's, and I quote, 'an unfortunate accident of birth'.

You're entitled to be pissed off. More to the point, you're entitled to turn up with a fairly thunderous book or page of your own refuting her sentiments and insist she reads it.

OK - as long as we are talking about refuting some arguments, the prejudice just hums right along. How disarming it is to say to someone - who has just berated you about being gay: "You know something, I love you." And then go about your business. We are not obliged to think like one another or to believe like one another or to act like one another - but we are asked to love one another, no matter what. Refuse to be drawn into their game or to fight on their terms, - draw them into your love and let them enjoy that.

So my suggestion is: Ma, I love you!

If we say that often enough, not only will they begin to believe it, but so will we! Meet indiference with difference - and that produces change, loving change.

I know that sounds preachy. But that's what I say to my daughter who is gay. I love you. And she replies, I love you too. It doesn't matter who said it first. What matters is that we both say it to each other. Practice makes perfect!

Dom, this is a really important issue that you should approach carefully. Unfortunately for me, I have wandered thru here at 5:00 AM and don't have time to develop a well thought out response. However, I embrace the approach of our Quaker friend (no pun intended) and suggest a low-key response to your mom. She loves you, she's wrong, let her work through things. Be who you are and she will understand in time.

pax, notTed

Dom, I think you have every right to be pissed. IMHO, this would be like you sending her a text that claimed that Christianity is a choice (and factually, it, unlike homosexuality, is a choice) and thus can, and should, via support and corrective actions, be overcome.

If this were to happen to me, I'd be inclined to reply by telling her that you were hurt by this, and why.

I hope things work out for you, whatever approach you decide to take.

His surgery went okay but he's also scheduled for a triple bypass at the end of the month. I'd really like to address the issue that he brought up, but now is not the time.

 

parents...*sigh*

Vic, I hope all goes well for you Father's surgery, and I admire your self-control for deferring any arguments.

I'm a bit take-no-prisoners on this stuff. My mum has developed her own tactic for dealing with this. She repeatedly forgets that I'm gay. She's old enough to be almost able to get away with it. Weirdly she then starts talking about when she worked in film and how she can recognise a homosexual at 60 paces. Or she runs out her new civil rights record and fiercely criticises our PM for banning gay marriage when it's, and I quote, 'an unfortunate accident of birth'.

 

You're entitled to be pissed off. More to the point, you're entitled to turn up with a fairly thunderous book or page of your own refuting her sentiments and insist she reads it.

Alan, thank you for posting this. You aren't alone in dealing with that tactic. My Mother is 45 years older than me, so she plays the "age card" very well indeed. She isn't religious, but does have a fixation on having natural grandkids (and I'm an only child). I've come out to her on many occasions, and the reactions have varied. Usually, it takes about two weeks before she's back to ignoring the fact that I'm gay, and is back to trying to fix me up with women. (ARGH!).

Most of the time, though, we seem to just avoid the issue, which suits me just fine these days (I got tired of the whole "coming out" thing, after about the 20th time with her).

OK - as long as we are talking about refuting some arguments, the prejudice just hums right along. How disarming it is to say to someone - who has just berated you about being gay: "You know something, I love you." And then go about your business. We are not obliged to think like one another or to believe like one another or to act like one another - but we are asked to love one another, no matter what. Refuse to be drawn into their game or to fight on their terms, - draw them into your love and let them enjoy that.

 

So my suggestion is: Ma, I love you!

 

If we say that often enough, not only will they begin to believe it, but so will we! Meet indiference with difference - and that produces change, loving change.

 

I know that sounds preachy. But that's what I say to my daughter who is gay. I love you. And she replies, I love you too. It doesn't matter who said it first. What matters is that we both say it to each other. Practice makes perfect!

Amen.

His surgery went okay but he's also scheduled for a triple bypass at the end of the month. I'd really like to address the issue that he brought up, but now is not the time.

Good Luck Vic, I hope everything goes well with the surgery, and I'm also impressed with your self-control. Also maybe your father's words were partly due to the effects of the drugs? People do say random stuff they wouldn't normally say sometimes...maybe it was just the first (unfortunate) thing that popped into his mind.

This way you know how she feels, but can leave it at that - personally I see no reason why everything must be confronted, some things I believe are much better where everyone knows what each other knows and no more needst be said about it.

I totally agree, everyone wants the other person to admit that their "right", but ultimately I think all that matters is that the two people know where the other is coming from and respect their decisions. If you have to force everyone else to believe as you do (especially when they're mostly staying out of the topic at hand), you're almost guilty of the same thing they're doing.

OK - as long as we are talking about refuting some arguments, the prejudice just hums right along. How disarming it is to say to someone - who has just berated you about being gay: "You know something, I love you." And then go about your business. We are not obliged to think like one another or to believe like one another or to act like one another - but we are asked to love one another, no matter what. Refuse to be drawn into their game or to fight on their terms, - draw them into your love and let them enjoy that.

 

So my suggestion is: Ma, I love you!

 

If we say that often enough, not only will they begin to believe it, but so will we! Meet indiference with difference - and that produces change, loving change.

 

I know that sounds preachy. But that's what I say to my daughter who is gay. I love you. And she replies, I love you too. It doesn't matter who said it first. What matters is that we both say it to each other. Practice makes perfect!

***claps***

Good Luck, Dom. I can definitely see where you're coming from, and maybe after you do calm down you should talk to your mother about it. Try to at least approach it in an "agree to disagree" fashion though. It sounds like she could be much worse about it than she is. So that's something anyway.

Best of luck

take care,

Kevin

Okay, Dom. we are confronted by the Bible thumpers (both well-intentioned and not) increasingly in this age. Rather than dismissing them, we need to be able to respond in kind. A simple Google search on Homosexuality and the Bible yields a number of useful commentaries. The following link is one that is comrehensive on several levels: http://www.freeingthespirit.org/CommentariesJS.htm See the discussion on Romans as referenced in the text your mother gave you.

In a nutshell, the Bible is a document of antiguity translated and interpreted over millenia thru mulitiple languages. To those literalists who proclaim that its every word is the inspired Word of God, inquire of them politely, which version? There are numerous ones. If they aren't reading the original Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek texts, (do they read Aramaic regularly? How intriguing...), they are reading translations which are the imperfect work of Man. (If they are on their toes, they will proclaim that those translators are inspired at the time by the Holy Spirit to be the True Word....again, ask whether all versions are equally inspired and, if not, which ones aren't...) And, oh by the way, ancient Hebrew scribners eschewed the use of vowels...only consonants were written out with the appropriate vowels to be inferred from the context and usage. Also, they weren't big on punctuation, either. Imagine, if you will, reading and interpreting for a modern audience, say, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales w/o vowels or punctuation marks. Then, get someone else to do it and see if they get the same result. Good luck.

At any rate, the Romans passage sited in the text your mother gave you actually starts several verses earlier. The text as a whole is a discussion and condemnation of idolatry not homosexuality. Among the practices of idolators was the abasing of oneself sexually to the temple priests/priestesses...acts of domination and subjugation, as an expression of fealty to false gods. It is not a discussion, nor condemnation, of consensual gay relationships among emotionally mature adults. (In a later passage, Paul condemns the then common practice of keeping a young male slave in the household as a sexual plaything....what we today refer to, and likewise condemn, as child abuse.) Read the discussion in the link above and others available to confirm my 'condensed' version.

Every Biblical reference commonly sited as condemning homosexuality (there are only about a half dozen) can be found to do so only upon a tortured, strained interpretation of the original text. It behooves us to familiarize ourselves with these passages, the twisted anti-gay translations, and the more likely (and gay affirmative) interpretations thereof.

pax, notTed

Dom,

Parents can be very...troublesome for gay men (and lesbians), especially when they get the religious bit in their mouth. You might want to let her know she's got good intentions...caring for her son, but we all know where the road paved with good intentions leads...

The Ex-Gay movement has really picked up a lot of steam over the last few years (and I think a number of people here are starting to run across their special brand of hatred from the number of posts on this site). In their search for ways of combatting the spread of acceptance for gay people, the religious right groups like Focus on the Family have latched onto the Ex-Gay idea. If people can change from being gay...there's no need for gay rights.

It sounds like your mom has bought into their twisted theology. I'd recommend taking a look at www.exgaywatch.com I check there quite regularly for the latest on what the anti-gay zealots are up to...and get quite a few good ideas on how to counter their arguments. Personally, I've got few problems with people trying to convince themselves they can lead a straight life...if it weren't for all the lies and hypocrisies of the people behind this movement. (The 'husband' of the woman quoted in your blog, Anne Paulk, resigned from an ex-gay ministry after he was caught having a few drinks and chatting up a guy in a Washington D.C. gay bar.)

Not Ted's last paragraph is very important as well. In the last dozen years, newer translations of the bible include the word 'homosexual' in it, when that word was never included before. It's a deliberate re-write of the bible to focus their political agenda...

Think about it, they're willing to go so far as to re-write the bible in order to further their political agenda...they aren't going to hesitate on filling your mom's head with their lies and distortions.

Fear not, Dom, for we have all had an encounter like this in some form or another throughout our lives. My mother is essentially the same way, where she gets kind of sad and, as you said, "wishy-washy" whenever anything remotely gay is mentioned (she actually held my hand for the first 30 minutes of "Brokeback Mountain"). I have a whole circle of "liberal" Christian friends who are all girls, so it's like having 4 mothers who all act like this.

About that article; my best friend once told me pretty much the same thing that it said. That it's a good Christian's duty to accept homosexuals and help us deal with our "poor, tormented souls" and "unfortunate circumstance." She said she'd help in any way possible to 'save my soul.' Yeah, I was pissed too. So, I totally understand how you feel. As any true Domaholic will tell you, I empathise with you; we, your devoted followers, get pissed vicariously through you. So worry not, for we are mad for you.

Wow. That sounded dumb. Excuse me.

Hi Dom,

I'd like to share some thoughts, although they might be gloomy, and although I might not be an expert in psychology:

Parents, especially mothers, are prone to ignore reality when it comes to their children. They want them to be happy, and to gain happiness through their happiness. Happiness, in their eyes, implies being married and having children. Deep inside they don't put up with a child not living up to this pattern; they clutch at every straw promising to prevent it from going on with their "deviant" behavior. In my eyes, that Christian propaganda you describe thrives on this disappointment. Interestingly enough, it seems that parents often react in a similar way when their daughter tells them that she wants to become a nun. I therefore suspect that it's not primarily the Christian mindset causing mothers to be adamant on changing their child's homosexuality, but some (genetically coded?) notion of desired behavior. Sticking to that pattern is supposed to provide happiness. Refusing to do so is perceived as challenging the family or society, which is deemed to be unacceptable. Mothers may still love their homosexual children, though, even if they don't accept them, and feel compelled to carry on with "helping" them.

But surely this is just one aspect of the issue, and I hope that you will succeed in putting your mother right. Remember that she is acting in good faith.

My Mother is 45 years older than me, so she plays the "age card" very well indeed. She isn't religious, but does have a fixation on having natural grandkids (and I'm an only child).

Humph. I told my kids they're off the hook for grandkids: I'll have them somehow, whether they produce (or reproduce) or not. It's a really backward thing to insist on grandchildren of the "same flesh." We are all the same flesh -- there's less than 1% genetic variation among human beings.

Dom, for some families, confrontation and arguing and harsh words really are necessary phases in coiming to terms. I think. But I don't know if it's the case for yours. I do thinbk you might consider matching her Bible things with stuff from PFLAG.

Thanks guys. I did need to calm down before responding to her. Which is good, because if I had right away I probably would have picked her apart. Basically, I left her a message on her voicemail saying thanks for the package, and don

A lot of good stuff in this thread. I'll quibble with a few things anyway.

Vowels don't really carry meaning in Semitic languges the way they do in English. Because of the structure of the languages, native speakers can understand what they are reading just fine in unpointed Hebrew or in Arabic, for example. It's sort of like "sit" and "sat" in English. They both mean the same thing, and the vowel just shows the tense. Of course, in English, we also have unrelated words like suit, suet, sot, sate, site, etc., etc., where you do need the vowels to distringuish them. There are Bible passages where there is some question where to break the words and such, but they are not that common, and I don't think there are any of those kinds of issues in the OT passages about homosexual prohibitons. So those arguments are pretty much beside the point.

And yes, Christianity is a choice, unless you are a conservative Presbyterian. Unfortunately, a lot of folk choose to call themselves Christians, but then choose not to follow anything that Jesus taught. How or why people would say that they are the follower of someone whose teachings they completely ignore completely baffles me.

I admit that homosexuality is a very minor topic in the Bible, but look at it as a gateway sin. I mean one day you're gay, and the next you might wear a linen and wool blend suit. Before long you might start eating shellfish. Eventually, you might even not be welcoming to all immigrants, and ultimately, if your brother dies childless, you might refuse to marry his widow.