What Makes People Gay?

[canundra]

I found this article while surfing the net. I thought it was an interesting read. I figured that some people here might agree.

 

Here's the link:

 

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/...ple_gay/?page=1

[BeaStKid]

Quite an intersedting and thought provoking article...Thanks for putting it up..

 

BSK

[colinian]

Recently I've read a number of articles like this one from the Boston Globe, and one aspect in all of them baffles me. The best way to talk about it is to first include a quote from the article What Makes People Gay? and I've highlighted what I'm going to talk about in red:

 

Meanwhile, the mother of twins Patrick and Thomas has done her own sifting and come to her own conclusions. She says her son's feminine behavior suggests he will grow up to be gay, and she has no problem with that. She just worries about what happens to him between now and then.

After that fateful call from Patrick's school, she says, "I knew I had to talk to my son, and I had no clue what to say." Ultimately, she told him that although he could play however he wanted at home, he couldn't tell his classmates he was a girl, because they'd think he was lying. And she told him that some older boys might be mean to him and even hit him if he continued to claim he was a girl.

Then she asked him, "Do you think that you can convince yourself that you are a boy?"

"Yes, Mom," he said. "It's going to be like when I was trying to learn to read, and then one day I opened the book and I could read."

His mother's heart sank. She could tell that he wanted more than anything to please her. "Basically, he was saying there must be a miracle - that one day I wake up and I'm a boy. That's the only way he could imagine it could happen."

In the year since that conversation, Patrick's behavior has become somewhat less feminine. His mother hopes it's just because his interests are evolving and not because he's suppressing them.

 

I've never shown any feminine behaviors. I've asked my folks about this, and my friends, and my grandparents. They all agree that I've never shown any behaviors other than boy/male. I played with guns and trucks and transformers and electric trains when I was little. I never played with dolls, Barbie or otherwise. I never wanted to dress in my mom's clothes. I never wanted to call myself a girl. I never wanted to be a girl. The same is true when I was a preteen and a teen, no feminine behaviors. Even my hating PE wasn't feminine, I just don't like organized sports except tennis and swimming. My favorite sport is hiking and backpacking, but I still play tennis and still love to swim.

 

I can remember being interested in boys from the time I was probably 8 or 9 years old. My first sexual experience was when I was 11 years old, in the 7th grade, with a boy who was my best friend. I met my boyfriend when he moved to our neighborhood when I was 12 and still in the 7th grade, and from the very first minute I saw him I had such a crush! It was love at first sight, lust, whatever you want to call it. We started messing around that summer, and became official boyfriends when we were both 13 during the summer before 9th grade.

 

Doug and I have gone to the Gay Pride Parade in SF the last three years. Other than that, I have no interest in the gay scene, I'm not even slightly curious.

 

My gay friends are like me and Doug. There were some fem and goth gay kids who were out at my high school, and big GSA and GBLT clubs on campus, but I wasn't interested. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with those kids, and was friendly with them, but they weren't part of my circle of friends. That circle of friends also included mostly straight guys and a lot of girls, too. I dated during high school, went to dances, but never had a relationship with a girl. I wasn't out. Doug and I both felt that we were fine together, and being out at school would add a layer of complexity to our lives that we didn't need. We were both planning on applying to UC Berkeley, and part of that was maintaining our straight-A averages and getting top grades on the SAT's, that was enough trauma for us!

 

Last year, when I was about to start my senior year, my cousin Chris moved in with us in August just before school started, and my folks became his guardians. I won't go into the details, I've already written about them on a couple of the GA forums. Chris is gay, and my folks knew that and were OK with it, and that's the reason he moved in with us. That made me realize my folks were OK with someone who's gay.

 

Doug and I talked about coming out to our folks, we sort of suspected that they suspected that we were boyfriends, but we decided that we'd wait until the end of our senior year. My folks outed me last November on my 17th birthday, telling me they knew I was gay and that Doug and I were boyfriends, and that was fine with them. Later Doug told his folks, and they told him they knew and they were fine with it. Turns both sets of our folks had been talking together about us and when they should let us know that they knew. We came out at school during our Senior Ball in May. Our friends said either "Wow, that's a surprise, cool!" or "I knew it, cool!"

 

I don't like to call myself "gay" because of all the baggage that term carries with it, lifestyle and perceptions baggage that I don't think applies to me. Doug feels pretty much the same way, except he has no problem with calling himself gay. Chris and his boyfriend Steve feel the same as Doug.

 

OK, Doug and I feel that we are 100% male, and we are in love with each other. We don't feel like we are prototypical "gays". So what are we? Normal guys in love with each other.

 

All of the recent articles seem to pigeonhole gay men into the "feminine behaviors" camp when they were little kids. I haven't seen any articles that describe gay kids and adults that never demonstrated "feminine behaviors" and are like how I feel and act and behave, and that Doug and Chris and Steve and our gay friends Ron, Eric, Joel, Bryan, Jason, Vincent, Bobby, Kris, and Kevin feel and act and behave. Are we so totally, wildly different in the gay spectrum? Are we a minority of a minority? Are there others out there like us?

 

Colin

[Menzoberranzen]

There are others out there like you, Colin (though I'm not one of them ) The reason these articles target the feminine gays is because these are the people whose development it is possible to track. No one would have had any reason to suspect you were gay, so there is nothing in your behavior as a child that would warrant a study being done. I think 'straight-acting' gays make up quite a sizable portion of the gay community, but they're so much harder to target with a possible cause.

 

Menzo

[Menzoberranzen]

Interesting article, though if that was my son I don't think I'd be presuming he's gay. He identifies as female, claims he's a girl, exhibits female characteristics, appears to prefer female clothes and toys...if only there was a word for people who exhibits those traits. Oh wait, there is - transgendered.

 

Of course, these days it seems more acceptable to be gay than it is to be transgendered. If a boy exhibits feminine characteristics, many parents worry that he might grow up to be gay - how many worry that he might grow up to be female? I wonder, would that mother be so accepting if that's the case with her son?

 

There are far more femme gay guys that transgendered people out there. I did all of those things (minus claiming to be a girl) and, despite my parents disbelief, I'm definitely glad to be a man.

[JamesSavik]

In the rush to a simple answer for one of life's most complex questions, a journalist becomes a pimp, a child becomes a lab rat and generalizations and stereotypes become the evidentary re-bar upon which preconceived ideas and superstitions solidify.

 

If this article was a joke, it might be funny. Instead it is a serious article so full of blatant ignorance and egregious bovine excreta that it is tragic.

 

Where is the smilie for the rude finger? :rude_finger:

[Graeme]

I'll start by saying I've only read the few pages of the article (so far) and this thread, and I already have a number of things to say

 

1. This article is talking about one indicator for homosexuality in males -- consistent feminine behaviour as a child. It also states on the first page that 75% of child who exhibit this behaviour turn out to be homosexuals.

 

Simple logic says that just because A implies B, that does not mean that nothing else can imply B. Colin's comments about how he and his friends don't fit this model means nothing -- they aren't saying that only children who exhibit this behaviour turn out to be homosexuals.

 

2. Most of the article is just rehashing the current state of play on the genetics/environmental debate. I didn't see much in the way of new things.

 

3. Some time ago, one of the major month parenting magazines in Melbourne had an article that dealt with this topic. I transcribed it because I thought it was so important: A Matter of Identity

 

One key thing to note at the end of the article is that the youth in the article is not gay.

[BeaStKid]

Where is the smilie for the rude finger? :rude_finger:

 

 

[Conner]

None of what I have to say is even remotely new. It is something that we need to keep in mind with all this stuff going on.

 

When it comes to the popular press interpreting science-based publications, take it with a grain of salt. Whenever the likelihood of a publication being sued over any particular piece is remote, you can bet your sweet cheeks that some degree of creativity is involved.

 

Patrick and Thomas and their mom may well be entirely fictional. They are a source and sources are confidential. If mom exists, why is she talking about her young son's sexuality to the popular press. Right, she's being paid.

 

Then, there's the medical profession. They're not much better. These are the people who had homosexuality classified as a mental disorder until 1973. That's not exactly the dark ages. I was 22 at the time. Of course, this classification was never based on any personal bias, it was based on the available science. Yeah, right. Government and medical plans probably announced that they would no longer pay for "gay" treatment therapy.

 

Another thing to remember, many of the physical attribute studies that we've been following here were conducted with gay researchers at the helm. Even with the best of intentions, bias will always come through. Someone has to interpret the results. Someone has to find new funding for more research.

 

As they say, life's a bitch and then you die.

 

Conner

[Myk]

In the rush to a simple answer for one of life's most complex questions, a journalist becomes a pimp, a child becomes a lab rat and generalizations and stereotypes become the evidentary re-bar upon which preconceived ideas and superstitions solidify.

 

If this article was a joke, it might be funny. Instead it is a serious article so full of blatant ignorance and egregious bovine excreta that it is tragic.

 

Where is the smilie for the rude finger? :rude_finger:

 

TOTALLY AGREED!!! Why must people attempt to peg down a single reason for why people turn out a certain way. It is just as relevant (or should I say irrelevant) to see what factors make someone decide to become a lawyer, or have kids, or even how they cut their hair!! Well, the first two there are probably more relevant but still....who cares!! *begin sarcasm* I just love it when people-who know nothing about something-try and rationally explain something so beyond all current science and understanding by breaking it down into two simple and very arbitrary groups! *end sarcasm*

 

I will eternally be perplexed and annoyed with journalists who simply make news themselves....as if there wasn't enough crap going on in the world to write about....they have to invent something else to fill up the news page. That is perhaps the second worst thing they do....the first being thriving on people's suffering. (In the rare case you are a decent journalist, my appologies.....although I doubt it.)

 

Sorry if this seems a big angry, I'm tired and this crap gives me a headache....guess its time for bed

 

Later, Greg

 

EDIT:

 

Then, there's the medical profession. They're not much better. These are the people who had homosexuality classified as a mental disorder until 1973. That's not exactly the dark ages. I was 22 at the time. Of course, this classification was never based on any personal bias, it was based on the available science. Yeah, right. Government and medical plans probably announced that they would no longer pay for "gay" treatment therapy.

I think that had more to do with political, religious and social motivations than the medical profession. There was no 'real science' to base that judgement on, and hopefully good people could realize that. Unfortunately it only takes a select few with power and a select group with a large mouth to be a royal pain in the ass!

Edited July 1, 2007 by Myk

[Ieshwar]

I find it weird that people try to classify chidren as gay, bi or str8 . It's plainly wrong. Let them live their life; at this age, they got other concerns like start making friends. This 'classification' can be a barrier.

 

Patrick seems like an extreme case. Otherwise, i find it strange to try to identify a guys's sexuality in the childhood. He can be gay, transgendered (having an affinity for being the opposite sex) or why not metrosexual?

 

"That my sons were different the second they were born, there is no question about it," says the twins' mother.

 

How can she know that one was 'feminine' the second the were born? It sounds so false. I mean, these traits possibly appear after they started talking and walking. What feminine traits a baby can have, for God's sake???

 

In June, scientists in Vienna announced that they had isolated a master genetic switch for sexual orientation in the fruit fly. Once they flicked the switch, the genetically altered female flies rebuffed overtures from males and instead attempted to mate with other females, adopting the elaborate courting dance and mating songs that males use.

 

That's SCARY!!! Like I have already mentioned in another thread, I fear that after these researches, people will try to 'flick the swicth' and have us mate females. Ewww! I proudly prefer guys!

 

Why don't they just accept us how we are? I know that some try to know why we are gay but it isn't important. I mean, no one tried to know why caratin persons prefer chocolate or why some find black-haired persons more attaractive?

 

Ieshwar

[clumber]

As far as I know I wasn't fem at all when I was a kid. I'm still not fem. Well, I don't reckon I am. If I am then I certainly can't see it. Oh, I've never ever tried to call myself a girl either.

 

Anway, I have my own answer to this...

 

Q. What makes people Gay?

 

A. I couldn't ***ing give a ***ing shiny ***ing s***e what makes people gay. I really ***ing couldn't care ****ing less. (I thought it was a safe bet that my answer would need censoring...)

[Conner]

As far as I know I wasn't fem at all when I was a kid. I'm still not fem. Well, I don't reckon I am. If I am then I certainly can't see it. Oh, I've never ever tried to call myself a girl either.

 

Anway, I have my own answer to this...

 

Q. What makes people Gay?

 

A. I couldn't ***ing give a ***ing shiny ***ing s***e what makes people gay. I really ***ing couldn't care ****ing less. (I thought it was a safe bet that my answer would need censoring...)

 

Even with the multiple asterisks, there is a certain clarity to what you said.

 

Conner

[JamesSavik]

Even with the multiple asterisks, there is a certain clarity to what you said.

 

Conner

 

Clumber is coming through loud and clear.

[BeaStKid]

 

roflmao!!

 

The BeaStKid

[Razor]

I dunno, I fit the profile. I have my flaming moments. I like eyeliner. Painting my fingernails was something I liked to do at one point. I have a serious lean towards things that require artistic thought and opinion instead of concrete methods and logic. I'm just kind of... girly. ~winces at saying that~

 

And I have wondered more than once what life would be like as a girl. I like my boy parts, I'm quite fond of them, but I have thought that it would be easier to just be a girl and fit the norm instead of feeling like I was an oopsie.

 

Maybe because I fit the profile I kind of see the point they're making. I'm pretty happy being a boy, though, so not transgendered at all. I just happen to like other people with boy parts, and I happen to have a few feminine characteristics. Ah, I'm gonna just shut up now before I muddle up the little bit of a point I was attempting to make.

[TheUnwanted]

I find it weird that people try to classify chidren as gay, bi or str8 . It's plainly wrong. Let them live their life; at this age, they got other concerns like start making friends. This 'classification' can be a barrier.

 

Ieshwar

 

I like what Ieshwar say he just a little kid let him be.

 

I were real swishy as a kid an I got it knocked out of me. Well most of it hehe I still got me that swing baby. But me folks they made assumptions bout me an it just messed things up. Yeah I is gay but I weren

[C James]

Kids are kids an what they do don